Completely unbelievable results

[yolixeya]

15 minutes ago, Federico said:

But for me this is the problem. People is continously pushed to think it's correct to compare FM to real life football. Of course devs must have something on the paper so to make the game as plausible and convincing as possible, but the information we users get, for me is kind of misleading.

So if someone claims it's impossible to have 20+ shots and other team have 1-2 and still lose and we can't compare it to real life football which FM is striving to emulate what should we compare it to? I don't understand your logic.

[Stackalee]

25 minutes ago, Federico said:

People is continously pushed to think it's correct to compare FM to real life football.

The OP was about comparing FM to real life, calling for realism while describing specific results as - "unbelievable"; "ridiculous"; "statistically impossible" and of course - the jewel in the crown of any thread moaning about FM, "nothing to do with tactics".

It's natural that posters would point out that this is silly.

[Federico]

22 minuti fa, yolixeya ha scritto:

So if someone claims it's impossible to have 20+ shots and other team have 1-2 and still lose and we can't compare it to real life football which FM is striving to emulate what should we compare it to? I don't understand your logic.

And why would you feel the need to compare it with real life stats? For me it would be much more useful to compare it with other FM matches and starting from analyzing IF there was something actually wrong with it. Maybe there's nothing and it's really an ME fault. I just lost a game to due a penalty given to my opponents for a clear tackle on the ball (at least this is what 3D animation shown me) and for a goal disallowed for offise that even VAR shown was regular (red line behind yellow line).

The "this happens in real life too" sentence it's turning into a classic refrain, a good panacea to all the problems. FM is not real life, that's my point.

14 minuti fa, Stackalee ha scritto:

The OP was about comparing FM to real life, calling for realism while describing specific results as - "unbelievable"; "ridiculous"; "statistically impossible" and of course - the jewel in the crown of any thread moaning about FM, "nothing to do with tactics".

It's natural that posters would point out that this is silly.

Exactly. From my point of view the user thinks it's correct to compare FM to real life football because this is the input he gets from anywhere and anyone. Starting analyzing why you couldn't get a good result by analyzing the other games played within the FM code it's a better starting point and probably would help to understand the game better.

To an extent: if the user understands the environment of FM, and he understands the world of FM is not the real world, he will be more prepared to live with it.

That said, a personality that doesn't like to lose Ruzzle would struggle to accept any incongruence on FM as well

[yolixeya]

8 minutes ago, Federico said:

And why would you feel the need to compare it with real life stats? For me it would be much more useful to compare it with other FM matches

Because if someone claims that something is unrealistic and can not happen in real life comparing it to other matches for him isn't any proof. He already thinks the game is flawed and not even close representation of real life. Why I even need to explain this?

[Federico]

5 minuti fa, yolixeya ha scritto:

Because if someone claims that something is unrealistic and can not happen in real life comparing it to other matches for him isn't any proof. He already thinks the game is flawed and not even close representation of real life. Why I even need to explain this?

You need to explain this because you haven't read what I think about realism compared to FM.

13 minuti fa, Federico ha scritto:

From my point of view the user thinks it's correct to compare FM to real life football because this is the input he gets from anywhere and anyone. Starting analyzing why you couldn't get a good result by analyzing the other games played within the FM code it's a better starting point and probably would help to understand the game better.

To an extent: if the user understands the environment of FM, and he understands the world of FM is not the real world, he will be more prepared to live with it.

That said, a personality that doesn't like to lose Ruzzle would struggle to accept any incongruence on FM as well

We're having a discussion, you don't need to show any aggressiveness, especially to me. It's not that making yourself smarter puts you in a better position.

[yolixeya]

We are not talking here about how to learn to play the game but simple statistics that other users claim are impossible in real life. I would agree with your quote if someone needs to learn to play FM. I have never advised someone to go watch real life games to learn to play FM. But if you claim statistics like those are impossible, real life statistics are the fact.

And I am not being agressive at all. It just seem to me that I have to explain things that are obvious.

Edited June 25, 2020 by yolixeya

[Federico]

I struggle to make my point clearer,  the language is yet a huge barrier for me apparently 

But anyway, I got your point.

[Pasonen]

32 minutes ago, Federico said:

The "this happens in real life too" sentence it's turning into a classic refrain, a good panacea to all the problems. FM is not real life, that's my point.

Yes exactly! Happens in real life but does it happen like its presented to us? No. If its not presented correctly how we should make ME better that we dont understand it wrong in future? We need to merge football and fm knowledge, not fight who is right..

[yolixeya]

5 minutes ago, Federico said:

I struggle to make my point clearer,  the language is yet a huge barrier for me apparently 

Well, I have the language barrier too so I can understand.

[Pasonen]

51 minutes ago, yolixeya said:

But if you claim statistics like those are impossible, real life statistics are the fact.

And if fm represent statistics only correctly by numbers and not at the field we are watching it makes us angry because real life stats become obstacle to change things better in game. We cant compare corrupted fm stats and real stats. We need watch deeper.

Edited June 25, 2020 by Pasonen

[yolixeya]

28 minutes ago, Pasonen said:

We cant compare corrupted fm stats and real stats.

Stats are stats. They are about the numbers and we can compare that. That isn't to say that ME doesn't have any issues and that they shouldn't try to improve the game to be better representation of football.

[XaW]

4 hours ago, Federico said:

But for me this is the problem. People is continously pushed to think it's correct to compare FM to real life football. Of course devs must have something on the paper so to make the game as plausible and convincing as possible, but the information we users get, for me is kind of misleading.

And that is exactly the point. The only reason I ever post real life data is when someone claims "this would never happen in real life". Well, here is proof of that happening.

I don't like to compare FM to real life, at least in other things than meta data on a broad scale. Better player should, in the grand scheme of things, do better than poorer players. And that happens, if you look at the meta data. Sure, there are outliers, but that is supposed to happen, and does in real life as well. No one claims that Leicester had the best squad on a player by player when they won the Premier League, but most agree Man City and Liverpool have the best squads in England the last few years and they represent the more likely incidents.

In the same way Juventus mostly win in Italy, and Barcelona and Real win most of the time in Spain. And Bayern in Germany. After a few years the "real life" aspect fade more and more, but in the first few seasons the game usually follows real life pretty well.

For each match, I've always thought that if you want to see if the match engine provide "realistic" football (as in it "looks" like a real football match), then take the human out of the equation. Look at an AI vs AI match and see if it looks as you want it to. Humans will always try to game a system to gain an advantage and a lot of FM players will use a tactic that exploits the ME if they can. And I'm talking average users, not the ones who in general post in here, we are a bit more into this than the rest. Look at how many want to download tactics in here, or the other big FM-sites. And this goes way back, the best example is probably the "Diablo" tactic from CM03/04 (I think), that totally broke the game.

And a lot of the issues I've seen in here in regards to those "FMed" topics are users who seem to use exploits. The "I have 80 shots and the opponent have 2 and I lost 0-2" types. Where you look at it and see they have 50 long shots and 25 corners and it's clear there's exploits happening. Crap input leads to crap output, but the chase for exploits makes this happen and then you get complaints here, and those complaints almost seems to overshadow the real faults with the game. That's my reason to call it out, anyway.

[themadsheep2001]

4 hours ago, yolixeya said:

Stats are stats. They are about the numbers and we can compare that. That isn't to say that ME doesn't have any issues and that they shouldn't try to improve the game to be better representation of football.

This. I think the problem is people like to use comparisons when it suits their argument. But it can't work that way, either we're comparing to real life where appropriate or we're not. Either FM operates from a baseline set by real life, or operates on its own. We can't pick and choose or there's no consistency

[FlorianAlbert9]

Stats are useful only if we use them associated with each other. 

Shots number means nothing per se. 

First of all: why a team shots so much. 
That is the first problem. 

Your team shots so much 'cause you have many players with set 'shot more'? ok you can untick that trait

Your team shots so much 'cause they don't find enough space? That's bring us to many street. 
Why they don't find space? and this most likely a tactic problem. 
but, much important: why they continued to shot if they don't find space even if they have shot less (and work into the box)? and that's a ME issue, 'cause even the most smart players seem prefer to shot despite better option. 

Second: quality of shot. If brazilian Ronaldo would play in real life match like this ME, he would score 7 goals for match. 
There are too many quality chances. And too many misses. (just and example: maybe we have 1 gol every 7 great chances while would be better have (in the same number of matches)  2 goals in 4/5 great chances. 

 

 

 

[Pasonen]

23 hours ago, Pasonen said:

We cant compare corrupted fm stats and real stats. We need watch deeper.

https://www.footballwhispers.com/blog/paul-walsh-football-statistics-can-be-misleading-if-not-used-properly/

Just adding to the topic. Not trying to prove my toughts to be the ultimate truth.

Edited June 26, 2020 by Pasonen

[Pasonen]

The topic of this thread should be renamed because its a feeling what game gave to him. In reality result is believable but in fm its literally UNBELIEVABLE. ok now i stop..!

Edit. In real life you might blame god or luck. In fm after luck and you theres SI to blame.

Edited June 26, 2020 by Pasonen

[XaW]

Ok, here is a proper analysis of my own match just now. This is the statistics screen:

I'm the team on the left, the one with all the chances and possession. I completely understand why I failed to win this match, unfortunately, I couldn't change it. I played in my normal 4-5-1/4-3-3 with wide forwards, but they played a very cautious 4-4-1-1.

Now, my team controlled the match, but only really got past them out wide, and they were far better than us in the box. Since they tucked in so much, I tried to create lateral movements and to drag the defenders out, but since I'm playing on a very low level (in the Faroese league, for those who wonder), my players simply were not good enough to do it well enough.

So what happened? Well, a lot of long shots and lot of set pieces that we failed to convert, unsurprisingly. 

We did have a chance of scoring, but with the poor quality of players, it's not surprising we failed. The best chance was a cross that fell to the striker after a poor clearance, but he hit it straight at the goalkeeper.

The other big chance was a low cross that we could have scored on, but an amazing save from their goalkeeper denied it.

Now, two chances is far too little created against such a defensive team as that. But as for the most part we struggled to penetrate the defence.

And looking at the passes it pretty clear we are only passing it around the defence looking for an option.

That's very few passes within their box, and there is what I failed to handle well enough.

Now, there are several things here. I'm playing at a low level, so the players are worse, and it's much easier to set up a solid defensive unit that to set up something that counters it. I also lacked my best playmaker so I knew it was going to be hard to get 3 points here. This is not, as I see it, an error in the match engine, but rather me trying to get something out of the players that they are incapable of, and not doing enough tactically to get past their really good defensive work.

[Pasonen]

1 hour ago, XaW said:

This is not, as I see it, an error in the match engine, but rather me trying to get something out of the players that they are incapable of, and not doing enough tactically to get past their really good defensive work.

But they didnt defend well when looked their ratings and how many shots you got away. You got 2 clear chances to make a goal and their DC got ratings 6.9 and 6.8 just because goals where not made. 4-4-1-1 and they let you shoot 33 times. Error is a strong word and ofc theres no point trying to blame ME but if they tried to be cautious with 4-4-1-1 match plan propably where to limit your chances to shoot and score goals. Well yeah you didnt score a goal but it was not because they defended well it was you didnt score. ME should show them defending well with movement and bravery and then we can happily admit damn they worked hard and we didnt find a hole. But after 33 shots thats reaaaally hard to admit they played well. Oh damn I just compared this to real football sorry :/

[XaW]

4 minutes ago, Pasonen said:

But they didnt defend well when looked their ratings and how many shots you got away. You got 2 clear chances to make a goal and their DC got ratings 6.9 and 6.8 just because goals where not made. 4-4-1-1 and they let you shoot 33 times. Error is a strong word and ofc theres no point trying to blame ME but if they tried to be cautious with 4-4-1-1 match plan propably where to limit your chances to shoot and score goals. Well yeah you didnt score a goal but it was not because they defended well it was you didnt score. ME should show them defending well with movement and bravery and then we can happily admit damn they worked hard and we didnt find a hole. But after 33 shots thats reaaaally hard to admit they played well. Oh damn I just compared this to real football sorry :/

Well, I'd say the rating system is more an issue there. Their defence played really well and I saw us struggle to find a way to break them down. Yes, we had 2 chances to score and one we did poor and one the goalkeeper had a good save.

Yes, we had 33 shots, but 18 of them was from long range under pressure. Scoring from those is really rare. And the most of the rest was headers from set pieces and those don't get scored too often either. So in reality we probably had somewhere around 5 chances that could, if choices and everything else were favorable, become a goal. And two of those were what I would call chances. Now, I'm no xG person, but I doubt any of those chances will result in a xG higher than 0.5. A pen is 0.75 if I remember correctly, and both those are a lot harder to score than a pen. So even with all that we could barely get over an xG of 1, even compounding all those long shots and corners.

Tactically, they sat low and allowed me to play the ball around their box, but pressuring us enough so we rarely got to create chances, and there were practically no room behind. When I have poor crossers and even poorer players in regards to jumping and headers, then that's on me.

What I should have done, was to have a plan B on the bench. A tall Andy Carroll clone I could try to float crosses to and have a few other around him to pick up the 2nd balls. But I don't have anyone of that sort, and that's on me.

I won the next match 7-0 against another poor side, but then I had an early goal and they couldn't stay as defensive as they wanted so we got more space to exploit and we did. And this is what many others are experiencing as well. The only difference I know what I'm doing wrong and trying to mend it. Not come here and complain and refuse to acknowledge that I have a part in it. Even if the game have issues regarding the use of space, or lack of wide defending, there are still things I can do tactically to mend it.

What I don't see from many complaining about this, and here is where I don't include you @Pasonen, is that they don't report issues, they only complain and come with a screenshot or anecdotal evidence. I know you have reported things and that's why I'm bothering to take a lot of time to explain how I see this. And we both have the same goal here, to do whatever we can to help SI fix issues or tweak things to get them as close to 100% as possible.

[Pasonen]

6 minutes ago, XaW said:

What I don't see from many complaining about this, and here is where I don't include you @Pasonen, is that they don't report issues, they only complain and come with a screenshot or anecdotal evidence. I know you have reported things and that's why I'm bothering to take a lot of time to explain how I see this. And we both have the same goal here, to do whatever we can to help SI fix issues or tweak things to get them as close to 100% as possible.

Yeah and I thank you for understanding. Complaining without doing anything about it is waste of time. If you have time could you PM me that game. I would like to take a look all those shots where those where made. I'm not going to make a bug report about it. Its no use anymore. Just watching it for fun