How to play a pressing game in this game?

[Shr3kk__Wpg]

Well, to start off with you need to have the midfield sorted. The OP complains that his midfield gets bypassed easily ... I suspect that it is exactly because of this heavy pressing that that occurs. Specially a 4231 is vulnerable. The two CM midfielders need to be somewhat constrained when it comes to pressing, and to be positionally "safe" when not in possession. A holding CM is needed, and there's only three roles that could be said to be holding available for the CM strata; DLP/d, CM/d and DLP/s. None of them are true holding mids like the HB or Anchor (for the DM strata) is, and the DLP/s is the least efficient/most vulnerable as a holder of these three. In addition, his midfield companion should offer reliable defensive support, so that rules out the BWM/d or s, the CM/a and the AP/a. It leaves the CM/s, BBM, AP/s or RPM as the choice for the other mid, alternatively a DLP/s for the extra cautious. By the way; both the BBM and the RPM is "safe" for the purpose of defensive positioning, they roam only when your team has the ball in possession. Of course, their roaming when in possession could have brought them too far away from their defensive positions to be immediately effective defensively sometimes, but they still should be considered to be defensive support players. The safest bet is the CM/s.

I am playing a pressing game myself (4231 Wide, Very Fluid, Control with Close down more, work ball, whip crosses and roaming), and balancing the midfield is key. The pressing should mainly be the work of the front 3 or 4 players. Choosing a DLP/d and a CM/s as the midfield duo, I get the necessary moderation and constraint in pressing and aggressiveness from those two. I haven't told them to close down less individually, I haven't found it necessary. Their main defensive task is not to defend aggressively, but to screen the defense and try to delay the opponents attack when possession is lost, while other players are tracking back to their defensive positions. The CM/s will of course be a tad more aggressive than the DLP/d.

I have very few PI's; the keeper (SK/d) is told to distribute to full backs, and the left wide man (IF/s) is told to sit narrower. That's it. The other roles are WB/s (right), CD/d - CD/d, WB/a (left), IF/a (right), AP/a (central) and CF/a. I have my DLP/d left center and the CM/s right center.

I could have asked my front 4 players to close down even more on an individual basis, but I can't tell the difference when I do, and there's sadly no visual indication in the UI that could tell me if I actually have done a meaningful and effective change or not. As I can't see a difference when I watch the game, I have to conclude that there is none. I sometimes add the "prevent short GK distribution" if I sense that the other team is playing a deep, careful keep-the-ball-at-all-costs game, but to be honest I haven't been able to spot a real difference with that either. My suspicion is that with Control + close down more, my players are already at their max or close to max closing down level, and that adding more closing down - either individually or by additional TI's - won't have any (or very little) further effect.

Nevertheless, I am having considerable success with this setup, winning the PL every season in my first 3 seasons with Arsenal, the FA once and CL finalist once. In 2 of those seasons we have both scored the most goals and let in the fewest in the PL. I think that says a lot.

I wanted to thank you for sharing your philosophy on pressing and I was working on a 4231 formation. I have now made some changes and my squad is playing great football. You have been a great help to me

[Rashidi]

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Now there are a few things i wouldnt be delighted about in this image, but they dont particularly relate to pressing so not relevant for here - It just show the comparison of a side pressed against, and a side "not".

I guess the point in this part is to take some time to analyse the type of pressing you want and see, and dont always be sucked in by basic match stats - Watch carefully and analyse in depth

Interested in views as to whether others do the same, or different ways to approach it etc.

Completely agree. When I make any kind of system now, I don't spend time staring at my screen expecting my dots to harry across the pitch, what I do expect to see is that players get closed down where I want them to be closed down. I do set things up with OI a specific bit and my system uses a formation and roles that would lend itself to a higher probability that the ball gets closed down in the final third. I specifically look and identify for pressing from key players. I am more than happy to see players getting closed down without being tackled. And I guess you have illustrated what I meant with a detailed post :-)

[RorysRocketThrow]

My setup with Stoke is similar to this but PI's on centre backs to 'Pass it shorter' and 'Close down less'.

Found they were hoofing it too much (insert joke here) and were pressing all over the pitch, sometimes into the opponents half. Not good.

[thomit]

I wanted to thank you for sharing your philosophy on pressing and I was working on a 4231 formation. I have now made some changes and my squad is playing great football. You have been a great help to me

Glad to be of help. As for the great football; that's what I see with my Arsenal team. They now look more akin to the Arsenal I see on TV and at the Emirates than I have ever acheived before, regularly producing the trademark Arsenal attacking game; lots of sneaky clever little passes through the defense into the box, loads of one-touch triangular passing coupled with the odd devastating (for the opponents) direct passes from deep midfield. And at the other end, a defensive solidity that the rl Arsenal have more difficulties with producing. Of course, 90% of the credit for that should go to the current m.e., it is the best SI has ever produced, so far. I don't know what team and players you are using, but I hope you see some of the same.

Having now trained and shaped Ramsey into becoming a very decent BBM, I have started to use that role instead of the CM/s role in midfield. It's a tiny little bit less secure defensively than a CM/s, but the gain is a Ramsey that is even more of a force in the team. BBM suits him very well. And really good BBM's (at this level) are hard to find; you can count them on one hand.

[Jambo98]

What has become clear to me, as i have played on my save with the pressing tactic i showed above, is just how important team gelling seems to be.

When i started out, it looked good, we generally pressed well like in the examples i posted. Results were "good", we were top of the league but it wasnt "great". We still gave away a few goals and lost and drew games we should not have.

For context, only 3 of the starting 11 i used when creating this tactic had been at the club the previous season. Of the "second 11", only 4 had been at the club the previous season. So a very new group of players, meaning the gelling still wasn't there. The good attributes in things like teamwork helped mask it a bit, but nothing can substitute for real team gelling.

With things starting to gel (We are now at "forged an extremely strong understanding"), it really makes the pressing all that more effective. We operate seemlessly. We have won 8 in a row, scoring 28 and conceding 3. Big teams, small teams, away games, home games. Our philosophy remains the same - Press high using this shape, and use our technical brilliance when we win the ball to suffocate teams. I guess my point here is, with a pressing game perhaps even more than most, have patience as you try to make it work.

As a slight aside, is there anywhere i could find a guide/translation of the various levels of "team gelling" - Eg i assume "willing to die for each other is the top one" and "good understanding" is somewhere moderate, but it would be good to see a guide to all the different options for gelling level?

[Sussex Hammer]

I was reading Harry Redknapp's latest book last night and he was talking about the high pressing of full backs such as Lee Dixon and Nigel Winterburn in Arsenal's fantastic back four a few years ago. It gave me food for thought because whilst my 4132 has been doing great for me at times away I was having my wing backs bypassed quite easily. I play a fairly high line and had close down more activated because for me anyway no pressing is suicide.

After reading the book though I tried a bit of an experiment. I took off team close down more and allocated individual PI's for pressing.

Those on an :

attack duty - close down much more.

Support duties - close down more.

Defensive duties - Neutral.

Not exactly Einstein but thought I would just try it out. Have won 3 on the bounce culminating in a 3-1 home win against Man City. What I did notice is that if the wing backs (attack duty) get beaten the centre backs seem to offer more cover with neutral closing down, but a lot of the time the wing backs win the ball.. The central midfielder (defend) and half back (defend) seem closer together and my CF A has scored 6 goals in 3 games. The centre backs have been nicking the ball from strikers and whilst it is far from perfect I am not being done down the wings as much which is odd because I assumed less pressing would give a more disciplined shape which I tried but that gave far too much time for the opposition.

As I say far from perfect and I will probably get stuffed away at Arsenal in my next game but it is interesting looking at individual pressing rather than team.

UPDATE***

As predicted I got beaten by Arsenal away 4-0 (after beating them 3-0 at home!) and of course 3 of the goals were by penalty, corner and cross, (surprise surprise). I really struggle to defend away against the big teams.

So scratch this it obviously doesn't work!!

[Jambo98]

I was reading Harry Redknapp's latest book last night and he was talking about the high pressing of full backs such as Lee Dixon and Nigel Winterburn in Arsenal's fantastic back four a few years ago. It gave me food for thought because whilst my 4132 has been doing great for me at times away I was having my wing backs bypassed quite easily. I play a fairly high line and had close down more activated because for me anyway no pressing is suicide.

After reading the book though I tried a bit of an experiment. I took off team close down more and allocated individual PI's for pressing.

Those on an :

attack duty - close down much more.

Support duties - close down more.

Defensive duties - Neutral.

Not exactly Einstein but thought I would just try it out. Have won 3 on the bounce culminating in a 3-1 home win against Man City. What I did notice is that if the wing backs (attack duty) get beaten the centre backs seem to offer more cover with neutral closing down, but a lot of the time the wing backs win the ball.. The central midfielder (defend) and half back (defend) seem closer together and my CF A has scored 6 goals in 3 games. The centre backs have been nicking the ball from strikers and whilst it is far from perfect I am not being done down the wings as much which is odd because I assumed less pressing would give a more disciplined shape which I tried but that gave far too much time for the opposition.

As I say far from perfect and I will probably get stuffed away at Arsenal in my next game but it is interesting looking at individual pressing rather than team.

UPDATE***

As predicted I got beaten by Arsenal away 4-0 (after beating them 3-0 at home!) and of course 3 of the goals were by penalty, corner and cross, (surprise surprise). I really struggle to defend away against the big teams.

So scratch this it obviously doesn't work!!

There are a few things worth picking up on here

Maybe it is just me, but i dont remember Dixon and Winterburn being high pressing types at all? That back 4 at Arsenal was all about structure and team work. Perhaps Harry means that they engaged hard with wingers who came into their "zone", but unless i am mistaken (my memory of it is hazy, i was an early teenager at the time i watched it all) they certainly didnt high press. That said, i am not sure i would consider 'Arry as a great source of tactical insight

I think your simple approach of looking at the duties is a nice simple start, but i think you also need to consider the role as part of it. Remember that different roles come with different closing down as part of it, so if your aim is to "standardise" closing down to match duty, its not quite as simplar as adding those PI that you mentioned. For example adding that PI to a DLP(s) will probably still leave him short of a BWM(s) pressing level, even when the latter does not have the PI added. It is a nice principle though.

Also, your last line........you lost a game so it doesnt work That is a bit of a trait for some people, jumping to that assumption.

I just rounded out a season wining Serie A by 12 points with my Milan pressing team (mentioned further up this thread). My 2nd and 3rd games of the season? 5 v 2 defeat against Genoa and a 5 v 1 Hammering by Real madrid. Fast forward 8 months and we have a league win with 99 goals scored and a CL final about to play to complete a treble. What did i change after those first 2 crushing losses? The role of one player (AMC) and individual pressing instruction removal on 2 others (which were actually on in error!)

You need to realise that a pressing system above all takes time to bed in and adapt to. It needs the right players. So i wouldnt say "it obviously doesnt work" based on one game

[Sussex Hammer]

There are a few things worth picking up on here

Maybe it is just me, but i dont remember Dixon and Winterburn being high pressing types at all? That back 4 at Arsenal was all about structure and team work. Perhaps Harry means that they engaged hard with wingers who came into their "zone", but unless i am mistaken (my memory of it is hazy, i was an early teenager at the time i watched it all) they certainly didnt high press. That said, i am not sure i would consider 'Arry as a great source of tactical insight

I think your simple approach of looking at the duties is a nice simple start, but i think you also need to consider the role as part of it. Remember that different roles come with different closing down as part of it, so if your aim is to "standardise" closing down to match duty, its not quite as simplar as adding those PI that you mentioned. For example adding that PI to a DLP(s) will probably still leave him short of a BWM(s) pressing level, even when the latter does not have the PI added. It is a nice principle though.

Also, your last line........you lost a game so it doesnt work That is a bit of a trait for some people, jumping to that assumption.

I just rounded out a season wining Serie A by 12 points with my Milan pressing team (mentioned further up this thread). My 2nd and 3rd games of the season? 5 v 2 defeat against Genoa and a 5 v 1 Hammering by Real madrid. Fast forward 8 months and we have a league win with 99 goals scored and a CL final about to play to complete a treble. What did i change after those first 2 crushing losses? The role of one player (AMC) and individual pressing instruction removal on 2 others (which were actually on in error!)

You need to realise that a pressing system above all takes time to bed in and adapt to. It needs the right players. So i wouldnt say "it obviously doesnt work" based on one game

Oh indeed quite agree... Re Dixon and Winterburn, certainly as a Hammer I remember Winterburn as a real terrier snapping at peoples heels and rarely giving them any rest but as you say it was probably more that they closed down quickly when the opposition player came into their zone and of course a lot of team played 442 in those days or at least a variant of it so they also had cover in front of them as well and some of Arsenal's wide players in those days, the likes of Parlour, Ljungberg and Rocastle were hard workers as well as good players. Plus behind them Dixon and Winterburn had the likes of Adams, Bould and Keown so I guess that kind of helps too!!!

Agree with the roles thing. Of course if you have a DLP you don't want him closing down high, in fact probably less closing down is better as the more space he has the better his own game will be and a creative forward is probably one who needs his own space as well.

One thing I notice about my 4132 is that wing backs will push up high but when a move breaks down and the opposition full back has it they will retreat. The two centre forwards generally close down or at least prevent the ball back to the keeper which is good but that means the full back has a lot of space to run into. The problem I have is that the central midfield three, certainly the CM S and CM D on either side of the three don't close down wide enough and that isn't without trying so that is the weakness of a 4132. To be honest it is making a choice against each opposition whether you give them space in front of your wing backs or in space behind as you can't stop both with only wing backs especially if you can't get those CM's to cover wide.

I'm pretty happy. 4th in the League and only 7 defeats all season but it is those big games away I just don't really get a look in. Sure I'm not the only one!!

[Sussex Hammer]

Well I loaded up again as an experiment game against Arsenal..

Lined up as

Standard/Fluid

push higher up

close down more

prevent GK distribution

hit early crosses

and my roles are as they stand.

--------------DLF S-------CF A----------------

------CM D----------CM A---------CM S-------

----------------------HB D---------------------

WB A--------CD D----------CD D-------WB A--

----------------------GK D----------------------

but added close down MUCH more to the CF A, CM A and both wing backs. Was doing ok but was one down at half time and there was a gap between my CM's and the HB. Changed the HB at half time to an Anchor Man with Close down MUCH more and got back to 1-1. Out of interest changed the Anchor back to merely close down more and Arsenal took more control and nabbed a winner in the 90th minute but I had 14 shots to their 7 and 6 on target to their 4. My strikers should have scored at least two more but that's the closest I have ever been at the Emirates. This is considering I accidently left on the Team Instruction of close down more so I suspect all closed down just that those with the TI were a higher press again..

Certainly shows that there is a big difference in which closing down setting you use it just doesn't seem obvious watching games. And roles play a big part I think. First half my CM A was pushing on and my Half Back was slotting into the back three so the CM A going one way and the HB going another so I am not surprised a gap appeared and Carzola etc had room to play. Going with an Anchor on heavy closing down changed that but I may then have left space in behind. It's down to what is the lesser of two evils in many ways.

[Jambo98]

Hmm, yeah but as i said above, and a few others have said in this thread, its not something that can ever be judged on one 90mins alone. See my above comment about getting trounced in my Milan save, yet ending up winning the league by 12 and being within 2mins of the treble. You need to let players build into something, and also have the right players for pressing. Its about much more than just taking your existing line up then adding pressing. A lot of the early posts in this thread give great examples of that - Formation, roles, duty and player attributes and PPMs are all required to play a prolonged pressing game.

Not really sure what your experiment tells you i am afraid

[Jean0987654321]

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/413987-Emulating-Marcelo-Bielsa-s-3-3-3-1-formation-Problem-Solved

I had posted a tactic based on the pressing. It is just an idea of how it should be

[Sussex Hammer]

Hmm, yeah but as i said above, and a few others have said in this thread, its not something that can ever be judged on one 90mins alone. See my above comment about getting trounced in my Milan save, yet ending up winning the league by 12 and being within 2mins of the treble. You need to let players build into something, and also have the right players for pressing. Its about much more than just taking your existing line up then adding pressing. A lot of the early posts in this thread give great examples of that - Formation, roles, duty and player attributes and PPMs are all required to play a prolonged pressing game.

Not really sure what your experiment tells you i am afraid

I think the experiment tells me that at times you just have to accept that the opposition will have better players than you and things happen in games that will change an outcome. A bit of skill, a decent finish, a poor finish, a miraculous save, a mistake, the list goes on. You can do everything right in a game of football but one moment of magic or an individual error can beat you and you just have to accept it. In the above Arsenal experiment Carroll hit the bar and Valencia hit the post so I could have been 2 up. Podolski finishes well and I lose 1-0. I'd probably have accepted that score line before the game.

[RTHerringbone]

I think the experiment tells me that at times you just have to accept that the opposition will have better players than you and things happen in games that will change an outcome. A bit of skill, a decent finish, a poor finish, a miraculous save, a mistake, the list goes on. You can do everything right in a game of football but one moment of magic or an individual error can beat you and you just have to accept it. In the above Arsenal experiment Carroll hit the bar and Valencia hit the post so I could have been 2 up. Podolski finishes well and I lose 1-0. I'd probably have accepted that score line before the game.

Nailed it.

[Jambo98]

Agree, except absolutely nothing to do with whether pressing is an effective system or not.........

You could have played a stand off/counter game, had the same game incidents and outcome, and your analysis would still be valid