Female Managers

[N^G]

I don't see a problem if one regens every now and again, then again it doesn't really matter either way tbh :shrug:

[jod123]

There should be some too, at least in Brazil.

There is also a female ref in the German league and there are some in the lower leagues in England in reality anyway. I don't know if they are in FM.

Where? I want one. I'd marry her in a minute. What a situation to have an FM-understanding girl!

Two on these forums are Suzie MUFC and The Better Half. Suzie MUFC is often on these forums and The Better Half does be in the tactics forum where she has uploaded a tactic she created. There are probably more but there are the only 2 I have noticed. You might marry them in a minute but would they marry you?

[dankrzyz]

You might marry them in a minute but would they marry you?

Only if I do well in the FA Cup this year, I suppose. Watford just might stand between me and the woman of my dreams! No one wants a mid-table boyfriend.

[Petros7]

Oh, and while we're at it, if female's shouldnt be able to be Football Managers, then I dont think people should be allowed on forums. Hence the fact that I'm going to report one of your offensive posts, which as you are already warned, may get you banned.

I disagree! Everyone has the right to an opinion and to further educate themselves (without paying for their mistakes).

Also, by taking action against someone you risk further antagonising that person and bringing to the surface of their emotions either the feeling of being persecuted (which can be also perceived as humiliation by the person, thus making them defencive in order to protect themselves) or the feeling of satisfaction as he can choose to take the punishment as 'mardyrdom for the cause' (thus making him feel proud for disturbing you that much).

As you don't really know the person or the nature of their intentions (and they may not be as bad as they sound) - Is it worth it?

That is my personal view on things and I would never report anyone unless they were unquestionably malicious and personal towards me. As this is my opinion, please rest assured that I will not judge you if you've already reported him, but I think that expressing this view openly can be of benefit to most (if they choose so, of course).

By the way, I can do cynical too!

[Moaner]

Moaner, everything that you've been saying has most likely offended many FM'ers. completly disagree, many people support what i have said

Tell me this, why would you want to go onto a forum, spam around, then stir up such a controversial issue as this by saying that female's shouldn't be included in the game? what is so wrong about wanting this game, that reflects real life, to continue to reflect real life?Whats the difference between saying that and saying 'I dont think anyone homosexual should be able to be put into the game'? please refer to a dictionary to find your answer

Do you remember when the Luton Town manager made sexist comments about a female linesman after a cup game? He was slated for those comments, because everyone knew that they were just that. Sexist. And thats exactly what you're being.wrong- im being a realist (in a nutshell "no female managers IRL, no female managers in the game

Its wrong, it's offensive and it's got no place on here.

Oh, and while we're at it, if female's shouldnt be able to be Football Managers, then I dont think people should be allowed on forums. Hence the fact that I'm going to report one of your offensive posts, which as you are already warned, may get you banned.it would be very sad if i was banned for voicing a popular opinion

i don't think you have read any of my previous posts at all but what you have done is jumped on the bandwagon.......and a final question....are you going to boycott SI because they haven't included female regen managers in the game?

[Moaner]

I disagree! Everyone has the right to an opinion and to further educate themselves (without paying for their mistakes).

Also, by taking action against someone you risk further antagonising that person and bringing to the surface of their emotions either the feeling of being persecuted (which can be also perceived as humiliation by the person, thus making them defencive in order to protect themselves) or the feeling of satisfaction as he can choose to take the punishment as 'mardyrdom for the cause' (thus making him feel proud for disturbing you that much).

As you don't really know the person or the nature of their intentions (and they may not be as bad as they sound) - Is it worth it?

That is my personal view on things and I would never report anyone unless they were unquestionably malicious and personal towards me. As this is my opinion, please rest assured that I will not judge you if you've already reported him, but I think that expressing this view openly can be of benefit to most (if they choose so, of course).

By the way, I can do cynical too!

great post petros, thank you.

[dankrzyz]

Anyway... about female managers (post topic)...

[Petros7]

great post petros, thank you.

You're welcome!

You do realise though that, although I understand where you're coming from and feel that some of your words could be better chosen, I still utterly disagree with you (at least on principle).

The reason I'm saying this is because I gather that you are young (or at least younger than me) and I've come across some of the things that you and others have said here concerning women in other professions earlier in my life (hey, I might as well admit that some I might have even espoused when I was at your age anyway), but I've seen how difficult it is for a minority (any minority) to break through the barriers raised against them.

Therefore I think it's attitude (popular 'common sense', if you want) that keeps them out of certain professions rather than their own abilities and as my opinions are such I try to fight against that attitude the best that I can. I hope you can see what I mean!

[Moaner]

You're welcome!

You do realise though that, although I understand where you're coming from and feel that some of your words could be better chosen, I still utterly disagree with you (at least on principle).

The reason I'm saying this is because I gather that you are young (or at least younger than me) and I've come across some of the things that you and others have said here concerning women in other professions earlier in my life (hey, I might as well admit that some I might have even espoused when I was at your age anyway), but I've seen how difficult it is for a minority (any minority) to break through the barriers raised against them.

Therefore I think it's attitude (popular 'common sense', if you want) that keeps them out of certain professions rather than their own abilities and as my opinions are such I try to fight against that attitude the best that I can. I hope you can see what I mean!

once again mate if a women manager were to come on the scene and who was good enough to manage a pro-team then i say let her, absoloutly no problem with that. i would have no problem with the exisitance of female managers in the game, if they were good enough. However my two gripes were..

1) if in real life there arn't (m)any female pro team managers- then the game should reflect this and have no female managers either. (of course the female-user should be allowed a female option- just not the AI regens)

and 2) i personally don't think we will see a women manager of a good enough standard to manage a professional club in england for a very, very long time (if ever, in my lifetime). its just a belief i have.

[dankrzyz]

i personally don't think we will see a women manager of a good enough standard to manage a professional club in england for a very, very long time

England, you may well be right, but FM isn't only UK-based, it has worldwide leagues and clubs. Maybe this scenario is more likely to play out in another country.

[dankrzyz]

A 2003 article on women in football management:

Where are football's women? Why it really needs to be a game of two

Independent on Sunday, The, Aug 24, 2003 by Roger Dobson

Delia Smith has done it, as has Karren Brady. They are women who run their own football clubs. But when it comes to managing, only Cherie Lunghi has achieved the goal - and that was in a fictional television series.

A new academic study now says there is no reason why women should not be appointed football managers and head coaches. The report accuses clubs of gross sexism for failing even to consider appointing a female manager.

The study by Liverpool University says the age-old argument that women never experienced life as top-class footballers and therefore would not have the nous to be a head coach no longer holds.

It points to successful managers - such as Arsene Wenger at Arsenal and Gerard Houllier at Liverpool - who had unsuccessful, minor careers as players and questions why women shouldn't also be given the chance to coach. Houllier initially trained as a teacher. On the other hand, World Cup winners Bobby Charlton and Alan Ball failed in their managerial careers.

The report concludes being an old-pro can no longer be a genuine occupational qualification for the post, opening up clubs up to prosecution under the Sex Discrimination Act.

While women are increasingly being welcomed as paying supporters by football clubs, about the nearest they get to the hanging rooms is making tea for the players. There has, says the report, been an astonishing lack of progress by women.

"There is one area of the game that remains almost completely untouched by women in the men's game. In the role of head coach, the job traditionally known as the football manager, there is not one female," says the report's author, Dr Geoff Pearson, lecturer in football and law at the University of Liverpool.

"Women may now be welcome to consume the football product, both from the seats and the club shop, but in terms of employment in any post higher than receptionist or shop assistant, a female applicant can expect a serious struggle. The business of football is one where overt masculine attitudes are dominant from top down," says the report.

Although the idea of a female football manager of a professional men's team was the basis of a BBC series as far back as 1989 - when Cherie Lunghi (pictured left) played a second division female coach in The Manageress - real life has yet to catch up.

Only a handful of women have occupied top jobs, none as manager. Karren Brady was appointed Birmingham City's managing director in 1993 and Brenda Spencer has occupied a similar role at Wigan Athletic, while Lorraine Rogers has been chairman at Tranmere Rovers. There have also been women referees, such as Wendy Toms, and lineswomen.

Most famous of all is Delia Smith, the television cook who bought her favourite club Norwich City, rescued it from financial difficulties and then introduced the best meat pies in league football.

The national game has long been a bastion of male chauvinism and it requires a tough female personality to survive the taunts.

Just a few weeks into Brady's career at Birmingham, one player is reported to have said: "I can see your tits in that shirt," to which she replied: "Don't worry. When I sell you to Crewe you won't be able to see them from there, will you?"

Footballers' wives may also be a thorny issue for prospective female managers. Last week, Gillingham football club's female fitness instructor was sacked following a complaint by one player's wife after her husband was sent a text message at midnight declaring: "Brilliant game. Well done. You're a brilliant player." The furious wife rang the fitness instructor the next day demanding: "How dare you text my husband." After a complaint to the club's male chairman, the fitness instructor was sacked.

But Dr Pearson says that as a new style of football manager starts to infiltrate the game, the football industry will be forced to consider applications from women and tone down its sexism.

"One of the major reasons why there are no female football managers in professional football is that football clubs usually want ex-professional players to manage their team," says the report.

"The belief that playing professional football is necessary to be a successful football manager automatically bars women from football management, because by virtue of their sex they cannot be professional players."

But, says the report, things are changing. Some of the best managers have been relative failures at the playing level. At the same time, successful players have been failures at the managerial level.

"There are no legal reasons why sex discrimination against women within football, even in appointments to the key post of football manager, can be tolerated," says the report.

"It will probably only be a matter of time before a woman with adequate coaching skills and qualifications applies for a vacant manager's post in a men's professional or semi-professional league."

The Woman Manager

By Martin Newell, `IoS' Poet in Residence

Discussion? Or maybe I should brace myself for ranting on the subject?

[Moaner]

England, you may well be right, but FM isn't only UK-based, it has worldwide leagues and clubs. Maybe this scenario is more likely to play out in another country.

my comment wasn't regarding FM, it was regarding real life!

good article though. Delia Smith is a bit of a headcase!

[rakhabbit]

i completly disagree physios and managers are completly different and require very different skills. managers must command respect and install disapline....cant really see a women demonstrating this with a bunch of grown men! im sorry, im not sexist, but there are just some jobs that are not for women and managing a mens football team is one of them!

********

Margaret Thatcher .. you may have heard of her ....

She's the English Prime Minister who said NO! to the major Unions when she came into office

Not only did she say No to thier demands, she completely destroyed them as a political mechanism.

Those Unions were all led by Men by the way.

Managing a Country is a far more complex task than managing a football club, women do extremely well in both politics and business, and in todays commercial environment most clubs have to take very serious consideration of thier business aspect aswell.

I think the only job you will find that a women is incapable of doing is "Sperm Donor"

[Petros7]

once again mate if a women manager were to come on the scene and who was good enough to manage a pro-team then i say let her, absoloutly no problem with that. i would have no problem with the exisitance of female managers in the game, if they were good enough. However my two gripes were..

1) if in real life there arn't (m)any female pro team managers- then the game should reflect this and have no female managers either. (of course the female-user should be allowed a female option- just not the AI regens)

and 2) i personally don't think we will see a women manager of a good enough standard to manage a professional club in england for a very, very long time (if ever, in my lifetime). its just a belief i have.

I don't need convincing as I know what you mean (even if I don't agree with you)!

But you are using 'real life' to describe a game that in this aspect at least could never be 'realistic', otherwise we would all be managers of professional clubs (and SI wouldn't sell a game ).

I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about. Hope Powell, the FA National Women's coach, studied to get her licence together with well known men who are actually managing teams in the Premiership right now, and not only scored as well as them but some of them even admitted that they went to her for help and advice during the course.

How many opportunities do you think that she has been given to manage a professional team of any stature as their former male colleagues? Shouldn't that just be down to ability really? Isn't the truth that she's not going to be given that opportunity because of what people (generally men) think of the whole idea of having women managing men rather than just be judged on ability?

That's my point! I believe that the fight is against that prejudice that keeps the door closed (irrespective of merit and achievement)!

So, even if this feature is not implemented for regens in this version of the game, I feel that this discussion is worth having so that we can change things for the future (both in the real life and in the game). If we can make a step towards that direction then it is worth taking anytime, even if you think that it is not going to happen in your lifetime!

Wouldn't you agree with that (at least on principle)?

[Spagbol]

There is no real debate to be had here though, the argument was that there are no female managers in real life so there should be none in FM.

Then it was shown that there are female football managers in real life and they're all ready in FM08. You can't argue against not including women in FM as 'it doesn't happen in real life' when it does and it's all ready included in FM.

SI have also said that there are no female newgen staff in FM09.

The debate has developed into 'should there be female newgen managers/staff in FM?'

As far as female football managers as regens go, quite clearly they should not be included en masse or seen taking over top teams as newgen managers, because it hasn't happened in real life. In fact how often have you seen a newgen manager take over any club above the bottom tier in FM?

I think there are about a hundred female coaching staff in FM08 out of a couple of hundred thousand total in the database. If female staff were to be included they should represent that %, one every four or so thousand. In terms of generated staff with every fresh season, I think that would probably mean if you were running several leagues you'd see one or two every five or so seasons. I think that seems quite realistic, doesn't it?

[Petros7]

I think the only job you will find that a women is incapable of doing is "Sperm Donor"

Actually, they don't need us at all - not even for that!

Scientists can already give them that in a lab. The only two problems with that has to do with ethics (for obvious reasons) and costs (still cheaper to get a man to walk into a sperm clinic).

Thankfully, hey!

[Moaner]

There is no real debate to be had here though, the argument was that there are no female managers in real life so there should be none in FM.

Then it was shown that there are female football managers in real life and they're all ready in FM08. You can't argue against not including women in FM as 'it doesn't happen in real life' when it does and it's all ready included in FM.

SI have also said that there are no female newgen staff in FM09.

The debate has developed into 'should there be female newgen managers/staff in FM?'

As far as female football managers as regens go, quite clearly they should not be included en masse or seen taking over top teams as newgen managers, because it hasn't happened in real life. In fact how often have you seen a newgen manager take over any club above the bottom tier in FM?

I think there are about a hundred female coaching staff in FM08 out of a couple of hundred thousand total in the database. If female staff were to be included they should represent that %, one every four or so thousand. In terms of generated staff with every fresh season, I think that would probably mean if you were running several leagues you'd see one or two every five or so seasons. I think that seems quite realistic, doesn't it?

you have made my point exactly, well done. i don't think anymore needs to be said on the matter, either side of the argument.

[Petros7]

There is no real debate to be had here though, the argument was that there are no female managers in real life so there should be none in FM.

Then it was shown that there are female football managers in real life and they're all ready in FM08. You can't argue against not including women in FM as 'it doesn't happen in real life' when it does and it's all ready included in FM.

SI have also said that there are no female newgen staff in FM09.

The debate has developed into 'should there be female newgen managers/staff in FM?'

As far as female football managers as regens go, quite clearly they should not be included en masse or seen taking over top teams as newgen managers, because it hasn't happened in real life. In fact how often have you seen a newgen manager take over any club above the bottom tier in FM?

I think there are about a hundred female coaching staff in FM08 out of a couple of hundred thousand total in the database. If female staff were to be included they should represent that %, one every four or so thousand. In terms of generated staff with every fresh season, I think that would probably mean if you were running several leagues you'd see one or two every five or so seasons. I think that seems quite realistic, doesn't it?

Yes! I believe that should be the new 'common sense'!

[Spagbol]

*phew*

We got there in the end. Well doen team, haha!

[Moaner]

There is no real debate to be had here though, the argument was that there are no female managers in real life so there should be none in FM.

Then it was shown that there are female football managers in real life and they're all ready in FM08. You can't argue against not including women in FM as 'it doesn't happen in real life' when it does and it's all ready included in FM.

SI have also said that there are no female newgen staff in FM09.

The debate has developed into 'should there be female newgen managers/staff in FM?'

As far as female football managers as regens go, quite clearly they should not be included en masse or seen taking over top teams as newgen managers, because it hasn't happened in real life. In fact how often have you seen a newgen manager take over any club above the bottom tier in FM?

I think there are about a hundred female coaching staff in FM08 out of a couple of hundred thousand total in the database. If female staff were to be included they should represent that %, one every four or so thousand. In terms of generated staff with every fresh season, I think that would probably mean if you were running several leagues you'd see one or two every five or so seasons. I think that seems quite realistic, doesn't it?

*phew*

We got there in the end. Well doen team, haha!

team america, **** YEAH! (i put the *'s in myself don't worry!)

[Spagbol]

"Great job, team. Head back to base for debriefing and cocktails. "

[Petros7]

*phew*

We got there in the end. Well doen team, haha!

Excellent!

Since we're at it and are all clearly available, we should pick on a real life problem and try to solve it. Me and Moaner will argue the two sides of the confrontation and Spagbol can jump in as the United Nations.

Shall we vote? I propose 'Palestine'!

:D:D

[busngabb]

It doesn't worry me to be honest, there are always 'ways' to take care of irritating women in your life.

In this case I'm sure a bit of code would kill off this lunacy.

[wwfan]

This has gone on far enough.