Perfecting English Old Fashioned Wideplay

[Madminister]

Although I've only been able to play about 10 hours of FM 14 so far, this tactic seems to still work well. The first save was a FM Classic save where I started with Vejle in Denmark, that didn't go too well and I resigned before Christmas. Then doing the job applicaiton roulette thingy I got Crawley job in league one. They were sitting right above the relegation zone. By using this system I took them to a comfortable midtable position in just two months. Then I started a new non-classic save with SønderjyskE and have started out well.

While the empirical evidence I can provide is minimal I believe this would serve a lot of people well. Mainly because it's build on a sound foundation.

[Reedy_1988]

I'd query your strategy. Is "counter" really the best strategy for the fast, direct British 4-4-2? I'd argue it should be attacking, very fluid or fluid, no specialist roles other than a TM and (possibly) poacher.

I'd try this:

Philosophy: Fluid

Strategy: Attacking

Adjustments: Heavier Tackling, More Direct, Less Roaming

Roles/Duties:

GK/D

FB/S

LD/D

LD/D

FB/S

MR/A

MC/D

MC/S

ML/A

TM/S

P/A

I'd then use various shout combos to make it more or less aggressive.

This has been brilliant for my current save as Bradford.

I think their team is tailor made for the 442 direct football. I make minor changes when i feel i need to (wingers set to stay wide) (full backs switch from support to auto) etc..

Beaten Huddersfield 4-1 at home and gone to Sunderland and drew with them 1-1 then beaten them on pens also.

[wwfan]

Logical tactical strategies always, always work between versions of FM.

I've recently started a save with Brighton and partially recreated my interpretation of the Barca tactic, albeit with fewer playmakers. Brighton have a great squad for possession football and are well balanced at the start, which has made the save pretty easy. However, some of the football has been a joy to watch.

[shaunwwfc]

Logical tactical strategies always, always work between versions of FM.

I've recently started a save with Brighton and partially recreated my interpretation of the Barca tactic, albeit with fewer playmakers. Brighton have a great squad for possession football and are well balanced at the start, which has made the save pretty easy. However, some of the football has been a joy to watch.

What would you see as the most logical counter attacking setup on FM14 wwfan? Still using a TM, Wingers like this system but slightly more conservative?

[wwfan]

What would you see as the most logical counter attacking setup on FM14 wwfan? Still using a TM, Wingers like this system but slightly more conservative?

Depends on how you are conceptualizing counter attacking. Are you looking to play keep ball deep then strike forward as you pull the opposition out, or attack quick and fast on the break at every opportunity?

Wouldn't ever use a TM though as he'll hold up the ball and slow things down too much. Maybe a F9 if you have that type of player.

[shaunwwfc]

Depends on how you are conceptualizing counter attacking. Are you looking to play keep ball deep then strike forward as you pull the opposition out, or attack quick and fast on the break at every opportunity?

Wouldn't ever use a TM though as he'll hold up the ball and slow things down too much. Maybe a F9 if you have that type of player.

Well preferably TM because I utilise those.

The way I would like my team to play is to sit deep, soak up pressure whilst remaining solid and hit teams on the break. I always assumed a TM would be best for this system..

[wwfan]

To use a TM you'd have to focus play down the flanks so he was a target but not involved so much in the build up. He'll slow things down too much otherwise.

You might also have the issue of a TM struggling as a lone FC. Going to be difficult to play a wing-based, direct counter attacking system that relies on soaking up pressure without sacrificing a front player for a DM. You'd need either a 4-2-1-2-1 or a 4-1-2-2-1, focus attacking down the flanks with a lower mentality system and direct passing. The TM would have to be given a Support role with some PIs to encourage him to be a little more of an all round player.

[shaunwwfc]

Well what do you say to the following;

Philosophy: Very Rigid

Strategy: Counter

Team Instructions: Pass Into Space, More Direct, Play Wider, Drop Deeper, Use Tighter Marking, Higher Tempo, More Disciplined.

Roles/Duties:

GK/D

FB/S

CD/D

CD/D

FB/S

DMR/(BWM) (D)

DML/(DLP) (S)

MR/A

ML/A

SS/A

DLF/A

[wwfan]

i'd be concerned without the 3rd central midfielder. The SS is not going to do enough work in defence. I'm also big on having WBs for counter attacking systems. You might find you get better shape by having WB/As overlapping Support WMs with instructions to cross early.

[Luizinho]

i'd be concerned without the 3rd central midfielder. The SS is not going to do enough work in defence. I'm also big on having WBs for counter attacking systems. You might find you get better shape by having WB/As overlapping Support WMs with instructions to cross early.

I've been trying to build a counter attack system for while now, getting closer but still far from my aim. I have DLF (s) upfront in a 4-2-1-2-1 system. He has a IF (a) and W (s) in either side with a CM (a) behind them. Is this sufficient numbers to commit?

[wwfan]

I've been trying to build a counter attack system for while now, getting closer but still far from my aim. I have DLF (s) upfront in a 4-2-1-2-1 system. He has a IF (a) and W (s) in either side with a CM (a) behind them. Is this sufficient numbers to commit?

Similar to my current system except I have an IF/S and a W/A and a F9.

Your system should work if you have good passing out of the DM strata, but will be lacking if those players can't provide the supply. BPDs might help a little. Likewise, get at least one FB Getting forward quickly, so the DM strata players have an extra out ball.

[Luizinho]

Similar to my current system except I have an IF/S and a W/A and a F9.

Your system should work if you have good passing out of the DM strata, but will be lacking if those players can't provide the supply. BPDs might help a little. Likewise, get at least one FB Getting forward quickly, so the DM strata players have an extra out ball.

Well this is what actually looks like...

would love to get your expert opinion

[wwfan]

Well this is what actually looks like...

would love to get your expert opinion

Obvious question. If you want a Counter Attacking system, why are you using Attacking as the mentality?

I'd be concerned that you don't have enough ball players deep. Only the DM/S really hits TBs with any regularity. Pass into Space can help this, but you are still going to be slightly lightweight in my opinion. I'd look to have a DLP/Reg and a DM in those roles, with at least one BPD behind them if possible. I'd also give the FB behind the W/S a WB or CWB role.

The higher tempo and direct passing instructions will force counters at every opportunity. If that's what you want, then fine. However, removing them will still enable counter attacking opportunities with a Counter mentality, but only when they are really on. You'll get more possession and provide your ball players with more opportunities for the killer pass by slowing things down and decreasing passing length a little. For bang bang countering at all costs, then keep the tempo and pass directness up.

[Luizinho]

Obvious question. If you want a Counter Attacking system, why are you using Attacking as the mentality?

I'd be concerned that you don't have enough ball players deep. Only the DM/S really hits TBs with any regularity. Pass into Space can help this, but you are still going to be slightly lightweight in my opinion. I'd look to have a DLP/Reg and a DM in those roles, with at least one BPD behind them if possible. I'd also give the FB behind the W/S a WB or CWB role.

The higher tempo and direct passing instructions will force counters at every opportunity. If that's what you want, then fine. However, removing them will still enable counter attacking opportunities with a Counter mentality, but only when they are really on. You'll get more possession and provide your ball players with more opportunities for the killer pass by slowing things down and decreasing passing length a little. For bang bang countering at all costs, then keep the tempo and pass directness up.

I read the CCC magazine (I'm sure you know it), and there was an article that looks at Counter-Attacking. He stats that an Attacking mentality coupled with defensive shouts such as Drop Deeper and Be More Disciplined is his preferred choice. I am experimenting like I say.

Being a Counter-Attacking system, I would of thought Wingbacks wound't be defensively solid enough when 'absorbing' the pressure? As for the supply from deep I do agree and that does make perfect sense. However, for example if I was playing with Crystal Palace, and I found myself without players capable of doing this, then would the DMC role be sufficient enough? Having possibly a DMC (d) & and a DMC (s) together? If I didn't have a clear Playmaker.

[wwfan]

I read the CCC magazine (I'm sure you know it), and there was an article that looks at Counter-Attacking. He stats that an Attacking mentality coupled with defensive shouts such as Drop Deeper and Be More Disciplined is his preferred choice. I am experimenting like I say.

Being a Counter-Attacking system, I would of thought Wingbacks wound't be defensively solid enough when 'absorbing' the pressure? As for the supply from deep I do agree and that does make perfect sense. However, for example if I was playing with Crystal Palace, and I found myself without players capable of doing this, then would the DMC role be sufficient enough? Having possibly a DMC (d) & and a DMC (s) together? If I didn't have a clear Playmaker.

I always prefer the lower mentalities unless I'm building an aggressive system (as with the GB style 4-4-2). Nice to see that other logics work though.

Two DMs should work, but a DLP would be better still.

[Luizinho]

I always prefer the lower mentalities unless I'm building an aggressive system (as with the GB style 4-4-2). Nice to see that other logics work though.

Two DMs should work, but a DLP would be better still.

and terms of Wingbacks defensively?

[wwfan]

They'll be well up with an Attacking mentality but hold back more with a Counter mentality. You'll have to look at whether they are helping or hindering shape and adjust accordingly.

[Luizinho]

They'll be well up with an Attacking mentality but hold back more with a Counter mentality. You'll have to look at whether they are helping or hindering shape and adjust accordingly.

EDIT: Would installing PIs such as more 'Direct Passing' or 'More Risky Passing' for the DMCs be beneficial? or would that practically turn them into playmakers anyway?

Thanks, these were issues I was trying to get my head around!

Saw you were online and thought it would be a grill you for advice, so thank you

[wwfan]

EDIT: Would installing PIs such as more 'Direct Passing' or 'More Risky Passing' for the DMCs be beneficial? or would that practically turn them into playmakers anyway?

Thanks, these were issues I was trying to get my head around!

Saw you were online and thought it would be a grill you for advice, so thank you

It might turn them into PMs but without the team focusing on getting the ball to them, which might suit what you are after.

[max787]

Tried this 442 around the 2nd patch of FM14. It was my favourite tactic in FM13, but it was a bit of a disaster in FM14 tbh. I've found it extremely difficult to succeed without a DM in this version.

Of course, my players in FM14 aren't anywhere near as good as the ones I used with this tactic in FM13 though.

[kingjericho]

I've been searching for a thread like this for months! It's also a style of play I love to see. Can't wait to use it!

[wwfan]

I've been searching for a thread like this for months! It's also a style of play I love to see. Can't wait to use it!

How's it looking on FM15?

[kingjericho]

Honestly, not well I gave it some time and I could barely snatch a win (with a top 5 team).

One question though: regarding the aggressive/cautious shouts, do you use them all or is that just a list of possible shouts to choose from? Also, in FM15 it's not possible to use "direct passing" and "retain possession". Would you say the OP can still be replicated to this year's game?

I'll start a new save soon using this 4-4-2 and I hope I can have more success with it.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

4-4-2

So far I have

Rigid (structured)

Counter

Drop Deeper,

Be more disciplined,

Higher Tempo,

Stay on feet,

Close down less.

Theory:

The team sits deep, stands off to maintain its shape (discipline / less closing down) and doesn't launch into needless tackles (Stay on feet). However in possession they generally want to move the ball with some urgency.

I haven't gone for shorter/long/direct passing as I think the set up works best with a mixed style of play that shifts depending on the situation - so where the team gains the upper hand or is stronger they can maintain possession and pass around and where they're in trouble can resort to more direct play.

I'm unsure there's a need to direct play down the wings... Should that happen naturally anyway. Hmm, maybe add 'exploit wings' and leave it at that.

That's what I'm tinkering with at the moment.

[dusziv]

I'm unsure there's a need to direct play down the wings... Should that happen naturally anyway. Hmm, maybe add 'exploit wings' and leave it at that.

That's what I'm tinkering with at the moment.

I have had very little success with "exploit the flanks" TI in FM so far. "Clear ball to flanks" works better form me especially if I am playing on normal mentalities.

In your set up you have drop deeper, stay on feet and close down less. Depending on roles and duties selected that is going to leave you much times without ball IMO, as technically better teams are going to dance in front of your penalty box.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

I have had very little success with "exploit the flanks" TI in FM so far. "Clear ball to flanks" works better form me especially if I am playing on normal mentalities.

In your set up you have drop deeper, stay on feet and close down less. Depending on roles and duties selected that is going to leave you much times without ball IMO, as technically better teams are going to dance in front of your penalty box.

But that's fine, I'm happy with ceding possession as the AI resorts to dire long shots from through a sea of bodies. The theory is we sit back, let them have their fun, pounce on the mistakes.

[shaunwwfc]

So far I have

Rigid (structured)

Counter

Drop Deeper,

Be more disciplined,

Higher Tempo,

Stay on feet,

Close down less.

Theory:

The team sits deep, stands off to maintain its shape (discipline / less closing down) and doesn't launch into needless tackles (Stay on feet). However in possession they generally want to move the ball with some urgency.

I haven't gone for shorter/long/direct passing as I think the set up works best with a mixed style of play that shifts depending on the situation - so where the team gains the upper hand or is stronger they can maintain possession and pass around and where they're in trouble can resort to more direct play.

I'm unsure there's a need to direct play down the wings... Should that happen naturally anyway. Hmm, maybe add 'exploit wings' and leave it at that.

That's what I'm tinkering with at the moment.

But that's fine, I'm happy with ceding possession as the AI resorts to dire long shots from through a sea of bodies. The theory is we sit back, let them have their fun, pounce on the mistakes.

Your approach is freakishly very close to mine.

I play highly structured though, sometimes delve into Defensive strategy but also don't ask players to stand off that much in fear of giving up too many space. Low strategy, structured shape and stay on feet is enough for me, personally.

What I do do however is ask my players to exploit the flanks because I play with out and out wingers so I want to exploit that space quickly - also sometimes experiment with Run at defence.

[max787]

How's it looking on FM15?

It doesn't work at all unfortunately.

Since FM14 I've found that not having a DM with a flat back 4 formation is just disastrous, and crosses (which were a big source of chances when I used this tactic in FM13) have been somewhat nerfed in my experience.

[wwfan]

Interesting it doesn't work as I'm playing a flat asymmetrical 4-3-3 that is attacking, fast and direct, and am performing significantly above expectations.

[kingjericho]

Would you mind 'updating' the OP?

Currently the 4-4-2 with the adjustments (get stuck in, stick to positions, more direct passing) is a mess defensively. The aggressive shouts make it even worse.

[wwfan]

Would you mind 'updating' the OP?

Currently the 4-4-2 with the adjustments (get stuck in, stick to positions, more direct passing) is a mess defensively. The aggressive shouts make it even worse.

I'll wait for the next update. In theory, they should work, so hopefully the new update will save me from doing any work, which is always good