The problems with 4-2-3-1

[Dionysus of Sparta]

Being a bit of a footballing romantic, for my current game I decided to try and bring Hungary back to the pinnacle of the footballing world and to do using slick passing football with lots of movement. I would have thought that the 4-2-3-1 would have helped me do this however it seems to leave me horrendously exposed at the back, I've tried heightening or lowering the defensive line, using defensive fullbacks and using two holding players in the CM positions but I seem to be getting constantly outnumbered in defence and hit on the counter attack no matter how mant players I set to defensive. I know I could just change the formation but I am deteremined to try and sort out the problems with this particularly as I have signed players with the intention of using this particular formation. Any thoughts?

[Marsupian]

The most solid 4-2-3-1 I play uses two holding MC's (both deep lying playmaker), two normal DC's (I use ball playing dc's but that doesn't matter for defense) and fullbacks on support. If your fullbacks get caught by wingers slipping in behind them you can put them on defend or put their forward runs to rarely.

Mostly tho I play a little more attacking minded with one of the MC's with forward runs sometimes and roaming on. It adds a little movement and depth to my attack without it getting too crowded up front. It's a bit of a new experiment but I like it so far (also works really well with the wide player on the forward running MC set as a more traditional winger).

My team instructions are: fluid, control (adapt to my opponent but mostly stays on control), more expressive and zonal marking. Also all my players have the following individual instructions set to sometimes: Run with ball, cross ball and through ball. Long shots are set to rarely for everyone. Also all players except my MC's and DC's have forward runs on sometimes, my wide AM's cut inside, my striker has wide play "normal" and my AMC moves into channels (they all roam).

The two MC's and DC's provide a solid basis, my fullbacks are hard working and get forward from time to time to provide more width in case my opponent sits in the box all day and my front four get creative and score goals. The most important aspect of the tactic is probably that the two MC's both screen the defense and are a creative thread from deep. It makes the tactic solid and creates space up front by forcing their midfielders to close them down.

Hope this helps!

btw. Maybe do a search on SFrasers thread (I believe it's called "meet the system") he explains his 4-2-3-1 which my tactic is very similar to.

[furiousuk]

Are you playing zonal or man-marking? It can make a real difference with this formation

[Jungztar]

I play very similar to Marsupian's description... Except my wingers do not "cut inside" because I have observed that giving them "normal" wingplay and cross from "mixed" together with roaming gives them more options in the attack and breaks up the AI defense... I observed that my wingers were picked up to easily by the AI DC/FB when playing them as Inside Fwds (cut inside) so I played around with the settings and got the best results with the Winger (normal/mixed/roaming) role. My big issue is the AMC / SC roles and I'm struggeling to make them work.... Right now i'm playing Attack Midfielder (suppport) / Trequatista but it is not perfect.

@Marsupian

Your 2 MCs are DLP but are they Support/Defensiv? or Support/Support?

[Marsupian]

I play very similar to Marsupian's description... Except my wingers do not "cut inside" because I have observed that giving them "normal" wingplay and cross from "mixed" together with roaming gives them more options in the attack and breaks up the AI defense... I observed that my wingers were picked up to easily by the AI DC/FB when playing them as Inside Fwds (cut inside) so I played around with the settings and got the best results with the Winger (normal/mixed/roaming) role. My big issue is the AMC / SC roles and I'm struggeling to make them work.... Right now i'm playing Attack Midfielder (suppport) / Trequatista but it is not perfect.

@Marsupian

Your 2 MCs are DLP but are they Support/Defensiv? or Support/Support?

It depends a bit, my normal tactic has them both on support with the same settings but when I have one of them run from deep and roam I put the other one on defense. It hardly makes a difference tho, it only changes the mentality a bit and maybe closing down (not sure right now). It's not something I tested but it just made sense and gives me a visual clue which tactic is currently selected .

I also messed around with my wingers a bit and I like putting one of them on "normal" wide play settings, I feel it gives a bit more variety and it helps when I play a left footed player on the left (like vela). When I give them normal wide play settings I also like to change their forward runs to often so they try to beat the fullback for through balls instead of receiving the ball in front of them (which is more suited for inside forwards imo).

I have my striker and amc on very similar settings (both forward runs sometimes and similar mentality). The main difference is that my striker has wide play on normal and my amc on moves into channels. The idea is that this puts them in different "channels" with the AMC going closer to where the ball is. Otherwise they end up in the same space when the AMC makes a forward run which is far from ideal. You can also play it more traditional with the striker on higher mentality and forward runs on often while keeping the AMC in the hole to create for the 3 other attacking players (if you play it that way it's probably better to have your striker move into channels with the amc staying central).

[Jungztar]

Ok thanks for the input! I will try the AMC/SC "channelling" you mention....

I assume that you are using zonal marking? What about closing-down? Do you tweak the players individually or do you use the TC standards? I have problems with the 4231 being to easy to play around or over.... My players seem to chase around and the AI just passes easy passes either behind the FBs or in between the DCs....

[Marsupian]

Ok thanks for the input! I will try the AMC/SC "channelling" you mention....

I assume that you are using zonal marking? What about closing-down? Do you tweak the players individually or do you use the TC standards? I have problems with the 4231 being to easy to play around or over.... My players seem to chase around and the AI just passes easy passes either behind the FBs or in between the DCs....

My defense is not the best ever sadly... this is what I use:

All closing down settings on TC (using standard in team instructions).

Zonal marking.

2 MC's on deep lying playmaker, support (rfd rarely, no roaming, tight marking)

2 FB's on support (rfd sometimes, no roaming, no tight marking)

2 DC's on ball playing, defend (rfd rarely, no roaming, tight marking)

I mostly use a control strategy, my philosophy is fluid and I use normal tackling.

The idea is to have a tight centre of 4 players who don't close down a lot but just sit there and dominate with their good physical abilities, good positioning, good marking and good tackling. Then I have two hard working, strong and solid tackling fullbacks and 4 players up front who close down the opponent and put on some early pressure. Nothing special and not without it's weaknesses but if you are the better team you shouldn't concede that many goals. It's also important to react to the opponents attacking thread. If they hare really fast strikers I will play deeper and if they have really good wingers I will put my fullbacks on defensive duties etc.

[James9]

My defense is not the best ever sadly... this is what I use:

All closing down settings on TC (using standard in team instructions).

Zonal marking.

2 MC's on deep lying playmaker, support (rfd rarely, no roaming, tight marking)

2 FB's on support (rfd sometimes, no roaming, no tight marking)

2 DC's on ball playing, defend (rfd rarely, no roaming, tight marking)

I mostly use a control strategy, my philosophy is fluid and I use normal tackling.

The idea is to have a tight centre of 4 players who don't close down a lot but just sit there and dominate with their good physical abilities, good positioning, good marking and good tackling. Then I have two hard working, strong and solid tackling fullbacks and 4 players up front who close down the opponent and put on some early pressure. Nothing special and not without it's weaknesses but if you are the better team you shouldn't concede that many goals. It's also important to react to the opponents attacking thread. If they hare really fast strikers I will play deeper and if they have really good wingers I will put my fullbacks on defensive duties etc.

Marsupian how would you set up the AMC and striker in a 4231 formation (what roles would you give them). I am little bit confused on what role and duty to give the AMC. Do you need to have two creative players in the MCs position as deep lying playmakers. I have Song and Wilshere as my MCs. I am a little bit worried about Song because he does not have great creative attributes. Song seems to be more of a ball winner than a deep lying playmaker. Would you recommend buying a more creative player to play with Wilshere. Is there anyway I can train Song to improve is attributes that will allowing to become more of a deep lying playmaker

[Marsupian]

Marsupian how would you set up the AMC and striker in a 4231 formation (what roles would you give them). I am little bit confused on what role and duty to give the AMC. Do you need to have two creative players in the MCs position as deep lying playmakers. I have Song and Wilshere as my MCs. I am a little bit worried about Song because he does not have great creative attributes. Song seems to be more of a ball winner than a deep lying playmaker. Would you recommend buying a more creative player to play with Wilshere. Is there anyway I can train Song to improve is attributes that will allowing to become more of a deep lying playmaker

You don't necessarily need two players who can both create and defend. It's perfectly fine to split the duty's and have one more defensive and one more attacking (I sometimes set it up with both of them on DLP role but one of them with RFD sometimes and roaming ticked and the other on defend which works well).

As for the AMC there are two options, you can have him stay in the hole and give through balls or make dribbles from deep or you can have him make runs into the box to give you a two striker feeling up top. I have my AMC set too RFD sometimes and move into channels. This will make him go forward quite often but he will be in the hole during buildup. I find it gives a good balance but he can be a bit invisible in some games (in which case it can help to put his RFD on either often or rarely). I adjust the wide play settings to my striker (if he has "normal" and stays central my AMC will move into channels).

Hope this helps.

[James9]

You don't necessarily need two players who can both create and defend. It's perfectly fine to split the duty's and have one more defensive and one more attacking (I sometimes set it up with both of them on DLP role but one of them with RFD sometimes and roaming ticked and the other on defend which works well).

As for the AMC there are two options, you can have him stay in the hole and give through balls or make dribbles from deep or you can have him make runs into the box to give you a two striker feeling up top. I have my AMC set too RFD sometimes and move into channels. This will make him go forward quite often but he will be in the hole during buildup. I find it gives a good balance but he can be a bit invisible in some games (in which case it can help to put his RFD on either often or rarely). I adjust the wide play settings to my striker (if he has "normal" and stays central my AMC will move into channels).

Hope this helps.

Do you have you AMC set up as advance playmaker or attacking midfielder. Would be fine to have Song as deep lying playmaker defend and jack wilshere deep lying play maker support. I read through Sfraser thread and he seems to have them both on support but I dont know if he change the mentality to make one of the players more defensive than the other.

[Marsupian]

Do you have you AMC set up as advance playmaker or attacking midfielder. Would be fine to have Song as deep lying playmaker defend and jack wilshere deep lying play maker support. I read through Sfraser thread and he seems to have them both on support but I dont know if he change the mentality to make one of the players more defensive than the other.

I have my AMC set up as Attacking Midfielder but with the instructions I give him he might just as well be an advanced playmaker, there is little difference. Due to the team instructions (fluid, more creative freedom) his creative freedom is close to max. All the "on the ball" instructions (run with ball, play through ball, cross ball) are set to sometimes as is his RFD instruction. His wideplay is set to move into channels. The idea is to have him start in the hole between midfield and defense but when another attacking player receives the ball he will start a run into the channel past the striker (who stays central). Depending on your other players and the opponent you can also decide to set his RFD to often or rarely to either keep him in the hole behind the other attacking players or to have him make runs sooner to create a more 4-4-2 type of feel. If you have a striker who moves into channels it's probably a good idea to set his wide play to normal so he can exploit the space in the center the striker creates when he pulls wide.

As for the DLP's there is little difference between defense and support (at least with the team instructions I use and when I change all his "on the ball" instructions like I do with every player). Setting one on support and the other on defense is perfectly fine. If you want to really split the MC's in a defensive and offensive player you should probably set the RFD instruction of the attacking player to sometimes so he gets forward from time to time. You could probably also limit Songs creative freedom by setting him to MC (defend) but I haven't tried that so I'm not sure. If he wastes a lot of possession it's deff a good thing to try.

[TwinsFan86]

I've had a lot of success at At. Madrid using an attacking 4-2-3-1 tactic leaving the fullbacks on automatic, my MC's as a DLP (S) and BWM (D), the AMC set to advance playmaker and the lone striker as a poacher.

[guy.almighty]

I play a 4-2-3-1 and have had pretty good success with it. I use a lot of individual tweaking so it's no use explaining the roles I've assigned them.

ST- often runs from deep, short passing, rarely dribble, roaming, high creativity, rarely long shots, often through balls, move into channels (set attacking)

AMC- rarely runs from deep, normal/long passing, often through balls, roaming, high creativity, rarely dribble, normal wideplay (set attacking)

AML- sometimes runs from deep, short/normal passing, crossing sometimes/often (depends how tall my ST is), through balls sometimes often (depends on height of ST), roaming, high creativity, hug touchline, aims for centre (set attacking)

AMR- often runs from deep, short passing, rarely dribble, roaming, very high creativity, often through balls, rarely cross, cut inside (set attacking)

MCR- sometimes run from deep, normal/long passing, often through balls, rarely dribble, high creativity, no roaming (set support)

MCL- rarely run from deep, short passing, rarely try through balls, rarely dribble, low creativity, no roaming, no holding (set defend)

DL- rarely run from deep, normal passing, rarely try through balls, rarely dribble, low creativity, no roaming, no holding, cross often from deep, aim for far post (set defend)

DR- sometimes run from deep, normal passing, rarely try through balls, rarely dribble, medium creativity, no roaming, no holding, cross often from deep (set support)

DC- everything is set really low. One DC has slightly higher closing down but not very high (set defend)

I use a fairly narrow, very quick set up with a very deep defensive line. No counter, defender collect, DLR as the guy to pass to from keeper. This creates a lot of movement and quick passing. My ST and AMR do most of the scoring, with others chipping in the odd goal. My AMC and AML usually pick up about 10 or so and my MCs only a couple each. Pace is the key for the AMR and ST. If they are quick, especially the AMR, the AMC will pick up the run often and put a ball through splitting the opposing defence. My defence is usually pretty tight, the most I've conceded in a season is 25 goals, with the least being 17.

[Devils Fan]

Being a bit of a footballing romantic, for my current game I decided to try and bring Hungary back to the pinnacle of the footballing world and to do using slick passing football with lots of movement. I would have thought that the 4-2-3-1 would have helped me do this however it seems to leave me horrendously exposed at the back, I've tried heightening or lowering the defensive line, using defensive fullbacks and using two holding players in the CM positions but I seem to be getting constantly outnumbered in defence and hit on the counter attack no matter how mant players I set to defensive. I know I could just change the formation but I am deteremined to try and sort out the problems with this particularly as I have signed players with the intention of using this particular formation. Any thoughts?

I had the same problem playing with the 4-2-3-1, where I was leaking goals like a bad habit. After watching a couple of matches in their entirety. I found that my players where dragged out of positions by pressing the ball-holder, had set my team to "press more". What happened was that my central defenders pushed up on the ball holder and left a gap in the defensive line behind. This gap was then often exploited by fast strikers. Also my central midfielders could get dragged away from the center and left the whole of the center of the pitch open to the opposition. I decided to change my style to "stand off" and it worked wonders. Now my team keeps the defensive formation and I stopped leaking goals. Still not the best in the league, but that has something to do with my hapless goalie.

[el_magico89]

you could download my tactic and have a look at how the DMCs are set. but usually, I would give you the advice, that if you just play with two holding midfielders+amc, make sure, that your holding midfielders are not closing down that much, that they much more stand off from challenges, so that they dont get caught out of position and leave huge gaps in the centre of the pitch by drifting out to the flanks in order to close down the opposition. also easy tackling and tight zonal marking+low mentality will give you the balance in midfield. the full backs should have a higher mentality+a bit more closing down + tight zonal marking, so that they start too early to close down the opposition, since the wingers are too high up the pitch and wont drop deep like irl and by pushing the fullbacks more further up the bitch, you prevent, that your DMCs leave their central positions in order to close down the opposition!

[deserter]

Consider the following:

4-4-2 is fairly solid in defence. There's the nice two banks of four that don't give out too much room for the opponent to operate in.

4-4-1-1 sacrifices a striker for an advanced midfielder. The two banks of four remain, but there's a third midifelder that can pick up a deep midfielder of the opponent so that the two central midfielders don't have to bother with that guy. Thus the two banks of four is harder to pick apart.

4-2-3-1 pushes the winger to a wide forward position. What this does is break that nice two-banks-of-four that so far has so nicely restricted the space for you. You do get a nice boost on attacking threat but there will, invariably, be an empty space between your wide forward and your full back and it just so happens to be that your midfield triangle tends to funnel the play into those empty spaces. If your players aren't capable of dealing with the situation, your defence will be compromised. A winger skinning you full back 1-on-1. A midfielder getting dragged wide and a space opened in the middle for the opposition to exploit. That sort of thing.

What you can do in this formation is to make sure that your wingers do at least some defensive work. Most obviously their job should be to keep an eye on the full backs so that your flank isn't overloaded. You could in theory tell them to mark the opposition wingers, but that in FM they will stop tracking them when they enter your final third or so.

If you want a solid defence, you'll probably have to drop the wingers back to midfield. Use an attacking role and they will form your 4-2-3-1 in offence.

Quite commonly in real life teams that use 4-2-3-1 actually do form a 4-4-1-1 in defence. Other times they don't.

[Flohrinho]

Consider the following:

4-4-2 is fairly solid in defence. There's the nice two banks of four that don't give out too much room for the opponent to operate in.

4-4-1-1 sacrifices a striker for an advanced midfielder. The two banks of four remain, but there's a third midifelder that can pick up a deep midfielder of the opponent so that the two central midfielders don't have to bother with that guy. Thus the two banks of four is harder to pick apart.

4-2-3-1 pushes the winger to a wide forward position. What this does is break that nice two-banks-of-four that so far has so nicely restricted the space for you. You do get a nice boost on attacking threat but there will, invariably, be an empty space between your wide forward and your full back and it just so happens to be that your midfield triangle tends to funnel the play into those empty spaces. If your players aren't capable of dealing with the situation, your defence will be compromised. A winger skinning you full back 1-on-1. A midfielder getting dragged wide and a space opened in the middle for the opposition to exploit. That sort of thing.

What you can do in this formation is to make sure that your wingers do at least some defensive work. Most obviously their job should be to keep an eye on the full backs so that your flank isn't overloaded. You could in theory tell them to mark the opposition wingers, but that in FM they will stop tracking them when they enter your final third or so.

If you want a solid defence, you'll probably have to drop the wingers back to midfield. Use an attacking role and they will form your 4-2-3-1 in offence.

Quite commonly in real life teams that use 4-2-3-1 actually do form a 4-4-1-1 in defence. Other times they don't.

This pretty much describes the major problem with the 4-2-3-1 in FM at the moment. The fact that the three AMs contribute little to nothing defensively is really hurting this formation and making it less tight in defense then the real version of this formation is.

The major problem here imo is the mentality slider which determines defensive and offensive behavior and the predetermined movements and positioning form the ME. In real football defending isn't done one on one anymore the wingers need to help out when defending even when there is no FB coming forward. I tried to counter this by making my wingers very defensive and give them run from deep often in hopes that they would help out in defense and still go forward as much as possible.

I expected to see a 4-4-1-1 when defending and a 4-2-3-1 when attacking but somehow even with very defensive settings my wingers couldn't really be bothered to help out in defense as long as our FB was still in a 1 on 1 situation. When their FB then bombed forward they were following but by that time it's actually too late already. It's due to the strange defensive behavior of the ME that you can't really defend space in this game and that mostly all defensive situations only come down to a 1 on 1 situation.

The defensive mentality from my wingers also led to them being very cautious when going forward not picking a lot of runs from deep or anything that would have made a significant offensive contribution. It's something that actually always annoyed me that you can't really control defensive and offensive positioning separate from each other.

[deserter]

I expected to see a 4-4-1-1 when defending and a 4-2-3-1 when attacking but somehow even with very defensive settings my wingers couldn't really be bothered to help out in defense as long as our FB was still in a 1 on 1 situation.

In FM the formation that is shown is the defensive shape of a team. Those are the positions that the player's try to take up when defending.

In real life it's not always like this. When a team is said to be using a 4231 it tends to refer to the way they attack.

So if you want a 4411 on defence and 4231 on attack you have to use 4411 as a base in FM. Because whatever you do, an AML/R is going to see himself as a wide forward and the ML/R is going to see himself as a wide midfielder. They feel that they have entirely different responsibilities when their team is defending.

[Soccer]

4-2-3-1 is a pretty solid formation for me. Usually, one of my central midfielder will be on an anchor man with defensive mentality, while the other is either a defensive midfielder or deep lying playmaker. Upfront, there will be 4 offensive players - an attacking midfielder with 'attack' mentality, 2 wingers (or inside forwards) and an advanced striker.

[dily]

i been playing this system with great success for last three years now. i found the team to be far too open when i started but over time worked out how to be solid at the back while keeping a fluid attacking play. i find the secret is in individual player instructions rather then just the role it self. I play with a ball winning midfielder and advance play maker support. if i leave the setting to the default i get ripped apart, so i make sure i have the ball winning midfilder and both CB's in very defensive settings and take away creativity level down from my attacking full backs. Also find it useful to have individual instructions for players on set pieces. think using man marking/zonal must be based on players you have. i use zonal marking but from set pieces have given man marking instructions to most players

[Coentrao]

That post from deserter is very interesting and i never considered that, i'm playing a 4231 now that is quite good offensively but i'm still conceding a lot of goals despite having a good team, i think i'll try to switch back to a 4411 to see if it helps.

[NerdLinger180]

This is how I play it.

Gk - sweeper keeper support

DR - Auto fullback

DL - Auto fullback

DCR - stopper

DCL - cover

AML - inside forward Attack

AMR - inside forward Attack

MCR - Advanced playmaker attack

MCL - Deep lying playmaker support

DMC - Ball winning midfielder

ST - Deep lying forward support ( wide play set to normal so he stays central)

I keep all the defaults for duties and roles. The advanced playmaker joins up with the deep lying forward. It works brilliantly if the advanced playmaker is good at dribbling and the deep lying forward has the ppm plays with back to goal

My mcr is the advanced playmaker so my dcr is the stopper so he is quick to close down the space on the right side

My mcl is the deep lying playmaker so my dcl is the cover allowing space for the deep lying playmaker.

I use a balanced attack with all defaults except roaming (more roaming) and passing is set to shorter. I have the best defence in the league but I don't score alot. Still though with good player interaction I have won the league twice on the trot.

I never change tactics for any match. And I only use the play wider shout when I notice the possession bar is camped in their half.

[warm]

@ Nerdlinger,

That's not a 4-2-3-1 formation, you're playing a 4-5-1.

[NerdLinger180]

@ Nerdlinger,

That's not a 4-2-3-1 formation, you're playing a 4-5-1.

In defence it is more like a 4-5-1 but in attack the advanced playmaker makes it more of a 4-2-3-1

[dily]

your DM being ball winner, if i were you i will watch him closely. ball winners tend to go close down ball wherever it is, including getting tight and pressing in advance positions bit like how alex song does for Arsenal. now the disadvantage of that is if the opposing player is good enough to hold the ball and release one of his players in theory your DM is taken out of equation. Now am not saying this is always the the case but it is a possibility

[warm]

In defence it is more like a 4-5-1 but in attack the advanced playmaker makes it more of a 4-2-3-1

There's a massive difference. You don't have 3 players in the '3' strata.

Have you tried playing a constructed 'anchor man' as one of the two midfielders in a 4-2-3-1?

[furiousuk]

Because whatever you do, an AML/R is going to see himself as a wide forward and the ML/R is going to see himself as a wide midfielder. They feel that they have entirely different responsibilities when their team is defending.

This just simply isn't true (although I did have to check first )

The formational position you see is only part of where a player will position themselves - a large chunk of the tactical instructions available to you define their overall position on the pitch. The most overlooked part of how your players position themselves on the pitch is their reaction to the shape of the opponents. This last point is almost as crucial as the formational shape you choose in the first place.

I have a few examples to further the discussion:

I'm playing a pretty standard 41221/433 (DM,MC,MC,AMR,AML,FC) whilst Everton have a narrow 41212 (the bane of my FM career at the moment!). You can clearly see how my AMR & AML both line up as wide midfielders for receipt of this defensive free-kick. I can only assume that they anticipate the ball to be played from GK to either FB and then to them. It doesn't happen and the GK hoofs it long but that's another story. The point is that their formational position is much further upfield but their pitch position is deeper - I attribute this to their attributes (using their anticipation, off the ball, possibly work rate/determination and decisions) and to high creative freedom.

This example shows how my team lines up when the opposition have a goal kick. The purple circles denote tight man-marking instructions whilst my wingers (9,11) and FBs (2,3) are on zonal. You can already see how my midfield have responded to the positioning of the opponents as they are not in a clear line - their man-marking instructions keep them with their man.

In the example the ball is kicked to the right of centre (as Everton play). Both AMR & AML moved back to help the midfield but AML (11) sees where the ball is going and holds his space to hopefully receive a header from my challenging player (in this case the aerial battle between Spence & Ahmed Khalil - this can be seen in shot 2). On the opposite side of the pitch AMR (9) has drifted back to help the midfield. He is set as an inside forward - attack and has almost NO defensive ability whatsoever - in most teams he would be a very effective poacher through the middle. The only reason AMR/AML were so high in the first place is to keep an eye on the FB's should they receive the ball from the goal kick.

The next example shows how the wingers are ready to track back and how my team actually deals with a wide threat.

In shot 1 the Everton FB (3, Moloto) is about to get on his bike down the line. A situation which is particularly threatening given their formational strength through the middle should a decent cross come in. Before this the movement of Everton has caused me problems. Both their FCL and AM have dropped back whilst MCR and MCL have also been moving around. My CBs (4,6) have been dragged well out of position, 6 has further exacerbated his lack of positioning by trying to tentatively track 7 (FCL) deep and has left a huge gap.

As 3 makes his move 9,8 & 2 all have key decisions to make. 9 has been tracking 3, even though he is not set to man-mark. Normally I would set my AMR/L to man-mark opposing FB's when facing a narrow 41212 but as I'm the stronger team here I haven't and so 9 stops tracking the 3 and instead picks up Everton MCL (25) as he moves wide and as my midfielder (8) chases down the line. I still have a spare man down that flank in my FB (2) so my marking strategy works perfectly and Everton were lucky to get a corner out of it in the end.

The point is that players in the AMR/AML slot will still defend. I want my AMR/AML high almost all the time and I do occasionally get caught out when the opponents overload the flanks with 2/3 players but my AMR/AML still do a defensive job even when they are set as Inside Forward (Att). In this game both of my wide players are really strikers, if I play more rounded players in those slots then they do even more defending as the situation dictates.

[Church CM]

I play very similar to Marsupian's description... Except my wingers do not "cut inside" because I have observed that giving them "normal" wingplay and cross from "mixed" together with roaming gives them more options in the attack and breaks up the AI defense... I observed that my wingers were picked up to easily by the AI DC/FB when playing them as Inside Fwds (cut inside) so I played around with the settings and got the best results with the Winger (normal/mixed/roaming) role. My big issue is the AMC / SC roles and I'm struggeling to make them work.... Right now i'm playing Attack Midfielder (suppport) / Trequatista but it is not perfect.

@Marsupian

Your 2 MCs are DLP but are they Support/Defensiv? or Support/Support?

I just altered my 4231 with marsupian's description and the above winger attributes. I had both of my MC's set as dlp/support and the amc as apm/a and the striker as adv/a. For the first time it played the way I wanted it to for the most part. In the past I typically play with a deep def line but I opted to go with the core settings and use shouts more. Results were good. Not a high scoring affair (2 games ... 2-0 and 1-0) but I really dominated the matches. Backing off on the press seemed to really hold the shape and now I think I have a real good core to build on. Thanks for the thread, one of the better tactical ones.

Will be interesting to see what happens when I have to face Man U ...

[deserter]

This just simply isn't true (although I did have to check first )

That very well depends on our interpretation of the terms.

What I expect for a wide forward defensively is that he keeps an eye on the full back and takes the opportunity to involve himself if the action comes his way while staying high up on the pitch as an counter attacking threat and crucially that leaves your full back without support from this guy. (In your end of the pitch that is.)

In my mind a wide midfielder is expected to take defensive positions to keep the trouble away from your full back and help him out should it be needed. He is there to provide support for your defensive play instead of readying himself for an attacking move for when you win the ball back.

Of course both will do some work defensively, but the priority of it is different. In my opinion the ME models this well.

I have a few examples to further the discussion:

The point is that their formational position is much further upfield but their pitch position is deeper - I attribute this to their attributes (using their anticipation, off the ball, possibly work rate/determination and decisions) and to high creative freedom.

I don't know what to attribute it to, but I have a feeling that the coding of positioning in this kind of dead ball situations has been rather lazy. Besides, this is not a defensive situation.

This however is a defensive situation and your team has taken their formal positions. It would be interesting to see if they'd react to opposing wingers and how would they line up when fielded in midfield.

The next example shows how the wingers are ready to track back and how my team actually deals with a wide threat.

In shot 1 the Everton FB (3, Moloto) is about to get on his bike down the line. A situation which is particularly threatening given their formational strength through the middle should a decent cross come in. Before this the movement of Everton has caused me problems. Both their FCL and AM have dropped back whilst MCR and MCL have also been moving around. My CBs (4,6) have been dragged well out of position, 6 has further exacerbated his lack of positioning by trying to tentatively track 7 (FCL) deep and has left a huge gap.

As 3 makes his move 9,8 & 2 all have key decisions to make. 9 has been tracking 3, even though he is not set to man-mark. Normally I would set my AMR/L to man-mark opposing FB's when facing a narrow 41212 but as I'm the stronger team here I haven't and so 9 stops tracking the 3 and instead picks up Everton MCL (25) as he moves wide and as my midfielder (8) chases down the line. I still have a spare man down that flank in my FB (2) so my marking strategy works perfectly and Everton were lucky to get a corner out of it in the end.

What I said earlier is that the wide forwards would stop tracking back when the play enters their own final third of the pitch. This is precisely what happens in your example. And from what I've seen (or at least think I have) is that they wouldn't have followed the full back to your end of the pitch even if you specifically told them to mark the full back. That's because taking good attacking position takes priority for a wide forward. If you used a wide midfielder then he likely would have helped out. (Even if that shouldn't be needed against 41212.)

The point is that players in the AMR/AML slot will still defend. I want my AMR/AML high almost all the time and I do occasionally get caught out when the opponents overload the flanks with 2/3 players but my AMR/AML still do a defensive job even when they are set as Inside Forward (Att). In this game both of my wide players are really strikers, if I play more rounded players in those slots then they do even more defending as the situation dictates.

I fully agree with you! They indeed do a defensive job within the framework of their position.

Hell, I don't even know what we're discussing here when we agree in the end.

Oh, I might investigate this further in-game tomorrow if I still feel like it. (Pictures and all.) I'll remain asleep until then however.

[deserter]

OK, let's highlight some differences between the defensive side of 4231 and 4411. With pictures. Here the opponent is using 442.

Let's start with the defensive strategy of both formations.

4231:

1: Blue 33 has the ball and plays it wide to the blue full back 2 who is marshalled by white 3 a wide forward. The blue 2 plays the ball blue winger 8.

2: Blue 8 receives the ball and white full back 36 closes him down forcing a backpass to blue 2. The white 3 is there to make a tackle and it's a throw in.

This is a great example of what 4231 does best. It's good in denying easy passing options. Wide forwards deny space from the full backs and the attacking midfielder can pick up a deep midfielder (if there is one). This allows you to put good pressure on the opponent in the first two thirds of the pitch. However it's broadly 1-on-1 battles all over the pitch. There's a lack of cover in deeper midfield and on the flanks that leads to a lot of 1-on-1 battles. If you win them there's nothing to worry about, but if you lose those battles your players will get dragged about and space will open.

4411:

1: Blue full back 2 has just passed the ball to blue winger 8 after getting the ball back from the whites. White 3, a winger, closed the blue 2 down and now decides to switch to blue 8 and follows him. Blue 8 passes the ball to blue striker 9 while white full back 36 tries to get goalside of him. On the other side of the pitch white full back picks up the blue winger and white winger keeps an eye on blue full back.

2: Blue 9 has the ball. There's no easy passing options, because white winger 2 has picked up blue winger 8 that is looking to overlap the striker. Meanwhile on the other side the white winger picks up the blue winger so the white full back may now switch to a blue striker that is moving wide. This leaves the white centre back free to cover. The situation is resolved by the whites ganging up on blue 9 and winning the ball back.

Here the 4411 did it's best. The opponent had their full backs free and could possibly have recycled possession because of that, but the whites were able to gang up against the striker that had the ball while having two defenders free to cover if the pressure failed. This is a luxury offered by the wingers helping out actively on the flanks.

The downside is that if the opponent is able to find their full back with a pass, then the winger has to close down and might end up running back and forth. And naturally the winger won't be in as good a position to counter when the ball is regained.

These examples point to the following:

- 4411 is probably best when standing off opponents and attacking patiently. Let the opponent have the ball in non-threatening positions and let your own wingers have enough time to move to attacking positions.

- 4231 is probably best when closing down hard from the front and attacking quickly. You're in position to deny space and when you regain the ball you have 4 players ready to pounce.

There's one more obvious difference between the two formations. That is the behavior of wingers when the ball gets to your end of the pitch:

Above you can see the difference.

4231: Blues have played their 8 into a good crossing position and the white wide forward has stood off to watch from his position. They are both in great position to pick up the clearance after the cross and join in a counter attack.

4411: Blues have just got a cross in from left. White wingers have fallen back to their own box. 7 has been covering for his full back and 3 has followed a blue winger and is the one to head it clear. There's much more whites than blues in the box so scoring is less likely, but a good counter attack is also much less likely without the wingers in position.

So it's up to the manager to decide which behavior is better. Both are good options defensively, just very much different.