Always get a player injured when making 3 substitutions?

[Jay-Producer]

He doesn't contradict himself at all, and if you can't see his point then it seems you're not really interested in discussing the issue at all.

The info Maidel has provided is an excellent example of constructive debate. Some people made a claim that they should be able to use 3 subs fairly early in the second half. Maidel provided data showing that real life managers avoid doing this. We can't know why they do this in real life, but covering for injuries is probably one reason.

If you're making 3 subs before the 75th minute you should be prepared for the possibility of picking up injuries. I understand you may feel you need to make the changes, but real life managers don't do it so it seems odd to complain about the drawbacks in the light of this data.

Incidentally, I also agree with Milnerpoint and would love to see the data to back up the Lazaru5's claim. This is the problem with making silly claims - someone will eventually ask for proof or provide evidence to the contrary.

Your confusing me? you say Maidel claimed real managers don't make 3 subs before the 75th minute, correct? Didn't Maidel post up showing stats that some managers used 3 subs up before the 75th minute? Yes he did, so how is that not a contradiction? an excellent example? no because that is not in the game of FM and does not reflect the ammount of injuries I and everyone else keeps getting.

[hugo_rune]

Does it matter how many people uses 3 subs or not? I have the right to use it. Stop being fan boys and at least have your minds open to the idea of a bug.

Btw I always use 3 subs, well at least when winning by a good margin. Cause I want to get youth some experience. I don't understand why managers that are leading 3-0 never use their subs to get youth some experience. Even 2-0. Thats what they are there for. Need to rest players.

Because most of us 'fan bois' have played the game a lot - in my case, over 200 hours with FM2011. We know how the game works. We know the difference between a bug, and a challenge that a player's struggling to adapt to.

The simple truth is that if people are having constant problems with injuries, they're doing something wrong. They're training their players too hard, they're playing them when tired, they're playing young players too often, they're pushing them too hard in their tactics.

Exactly why this is, I have no idea. Experiment. Change something you're doing. Change how often you're rotating players. Change your tactics. If you simply have a lot of games, injuries are inevitable and you may need to enlarge your squad.

[Jay-Producer]

what has that go to do with players gettin injured after 3 subs have been made?

Because all but one player who was already injured where during games when 3 subs were made before the 75th minute that's why!

[Jay-Producer]

Because most of us 'fan bois' have played the game a lot - in my case, over 200 hours with FM2011. We know how the game works. We know the difference between a bug, and a challenge that a player's struggling to adapt to.

The simple truth is that if people are having constant problems with injuries, they're doing something wrong. They're training their players too hard, they're playing them when tired, they're playing young players too often, they're pushing them too hard in their tactics.

Exactly why this is, I have no idea. Experiment. Change something you're doing. Change how often you're rotating players. Change your tactics. If you simply have a lot of games, injuries are inevitable and you may need to enlarge your squad.

How is it then, Einstein , when your players are 96%-100% before the game starts and during half time are 80%+ fitness levels in the most demanding positions and 90%+ in some other positions do they get injured after the 3rd sub is made?

[Maidel]

How is it then, Einstein , when your players are 96%-100% before the game starts and during half time are 80%+ fitness levels in the most demanding positions and 90%+ in some other positions do they get injured after the 3rd sub is made?

Because if you are using all your subs by the 75th minute (something I showed only 15% of real life managers do) then you are going to have to expect it to happen from time to time.

If all those players were injured in the minutes you claim they were - post screen shots of all those games overviews.

[Lazaru5]

hahahahaha you've proven nothing, 3 examples from preseason when you have crammed far too many games into a very short space of time does not prove your point at all, no wonder you are dropping players like flies. Play a season then come back with some actual stats that might hold up.

The eleven games and the examples were LEAGUE GAMES!! That's why I posted the fixtures... you've also failed to notice that the friendlies started on the 26 July and finished 2 weeks before the start of the season proper on the 3RD OCTOBER... and that there was a break in the middle (because the AI organised the friendlies too early!)

You also failed to notice that the AI was the one that suffered two of the three, not I (as I tend to try and not use all of my subs prior to 80 mins...)

The op said this was specifically happening to the PLAYER, from what I can see its happened to you once...

If you look at the middle game the opposition had made 3 subs by the 69th minute - and - shock - no injury.

Also in your middle game where you did get an injury - you hadnt made your subs by the 75th minute - you made them at the 81st minute.

So what you have shown is that SOMETIMES if every sub is used by the 75th minute there is an injury - and sometimes not.

Trying to work out what you thought you were proving here really.

I didn't say the 75th minute (never have), and as you can see from Kenco's post where he quotes mine, I said it was happening to the AI too... I did say that using all three subs at once can lead to injury later... I also said around 75% of the time it would happen so 4 examples of it above (in 3 screenshots) and 3 occurrences - I'd say that is 75%, do you not agree?

You said earlier it was 75%, now you are changing to 25%, that's a big difference...

If you read my post correctly, I said at least 75% of the time when you used all 3 subs - not 75% of games... even so, 25% of games ending with one team having ten on the pitch due to injury is surely far too much?

[hugo_rune]

How is it then, Einstein , when your players are 96%-100% before the game starts and during half time are 80%+ fitness levels in the most demanding positions and 90%+ in some other positions do they get injured after the 3rd sub is made?

I honestly have no idea what you're doing to make it happen to you so often, I can only say that in my fourth season of my current save, an injury reducing me to ten men has happened once, maybe twice. Most of the time I'm leaving my third sub until the last ten minutes of the game, but not always.

edit: that once or twice applies to my entire career, not the one season. Just clarifying

[milnerpoint]

How is it then, Einstein , when your players are 96%-100% before the game starts and during half time are 80%+ fitness levels in the most demanding positions and 90%+ in some other positions do they get injured after the 3rd sub is made?

is that a serious question?????

players can get injured even if they are at 100% fitness, i thought that was a pretty obvious fact, what he is saying is players can be more likely to get injured when tired and low on fitness.

[Maidel]

I didn't say the 75th minute (never have), and as you can see from Kenco's post where he quotes mine, I said it was happening to the AI too... I did say that using all three subs at once can lead to injury later... I also said around 75% of the time it would happen so 4 examples of it above (in 3 screenshots) and 3 occurrences - I'd say that is 75%, do you not agree?

Yes, but the OP did - and you keep saying that you agree with him, thus, why I and others have pointed that out.

If you read my post correctly, I said at least 75% of the time when you used all 3 subs - not 75% of games... even so, 25% of games ending with one team having ten on the pitch due to injury is surely far too much?

You are showing stats from 3 games - I could probably go though the games played this year and find the same thing - if you want us to beleive this is a real issue then you need to do some ingame testing. play a match, use all three subs, replay the match do the same. Do it 10 times - if the same thing happens in a fair proportion of the matches then we will believe you - but I am very very certain it wont.

In the three full seasons I have played it hasnt happened once to myself or my opposition. (appart from in an extra time game when I ended up with 10 men, but that is understandable.)

[Jay-Producer]

Some stats for when my players got inured:

I took a lot of time going through tons of games in different saved games. Ok here is some facts for you lot and I have plenty evidence to back all this up. NOT every injury was done when making 3 subs before the 75th minute. I did NOT get an injury in every game where I made all 3 subs before the 75th minute but can conclude that the majority came when making all 3 subs before the 75th minute (a good 85% of them).

Percentage of fitness levels with time when injury took place in brackets (all but one injury took place after all 3 subs were made, NEVER did I get an injuries before the 3rd sub was made in competitive games - work that one out!). The following stats are from one of my saved games which I was talking about above....

70% (70th min) (all 3 subs made before 75th)

69% (87th min) (I had a player in central mid - demanding position - with a fitness level of 54% and he did not get injured). Only 2 subs made before injury.

55% (84th min) (all 3 subs made before 75th) (understandable this guy getting injured)

70% (70th min) (all 3 subs made before 75th)

48% (87th min) (all 3 subs made before 75th) (understandable this guy getting injured)

All but 3 games (of which those 3 were friendlies) I got a player injured. So what does this conclude - there are too many injuries!!!

[Maidel]

All but 3 games (of which those 3 were friendlies) I got a player injured. So what does this conclude - there are too many injuries!!!

Which is an utterly different issue to the one you raised initially.

And one I also disagree with.

[hugo_rune]

All but 3 games (of which those 3 were friendlies) I got a player injured. So what does this conclude - there are too many injuries!!!

The conclusion for me is that you'd be wise to do what real life managers do, what I try to do, what a number of other FM players do, and make an effort to keep a substitute in reserve until the very final minutes of the game.

Players get injured, often, in real life football. Usually not bad enough to ruin their season, but often bad enough to keep them out for some weeks. The same happens in Football Manager, and, all other things being equal, it seems to be a similar frequency.

Don't blame FM for being a simulation and not an arcade game, that's the last comment I have to make.

[Lazaru5]

Yes, but the OP did - and you keep saying that you agree with him, thus, why I and others have pointed that out.

You are showing stats from 3 games - I could probably go though the games played this year and find the same thing - if you want us to beleive this is a real issue then you need to do some ingame testing. play a match, use all three subs, replay the match do the same. Do it 10 times - if the same thing happens in a fair proportion of the matches then we will believe you - but I am very very certain it wont.

In the three full seasons I have played it hasnt happened once to myself or my opposition. (appart from in an extra time game when I ended up with 10 men, but that is understandable.)

3 games from 11 played... (and like I said, if I'd not suffered a crash-dump it would have been 4 in 14!). No matter how much you troll, I'm not going to waste my time loading up my other 2 saves to get the screenshots from them too... you are so obviously a fanboi or troll (or both) that you wouldn't believe or be convinced of it even if Neil Brock himself said it!

I've posted the proof, as requested, and you still fail to accept... ergo TROLL!

[Maidel]

Right I am doing the test - I have no issues with how this test comes out and I cant be bothered to post screen shots, but I have them if people call foul. I am playing the same game 5 times and will make subsitutions to fit accordingly. Any game in which I have to make an unexpected sub I will ignore and iwll only include ones where I have chosen to make the sub. I am using a fairly fit and healthy arsenal team, no starters below 97%. I will only be looking at my team as only I can control the subs.

Game 1: no subsitutions.

Game 2: 3 Subs at half time

Game 3: 3 Subs at 60 Minutes

Game 4: 3 Subs at 70 minutes

Game 5: 3 Subs at 79 Minutes

Game 1 - no injuries

Game 2 - No injuries

Game 3 - no injuries

Game 4 - no injuries

Game 5 - no injuries

If this was a bug I would have seen SOMETHING - but I didnt.

[Damedius]

Misread op.

[Maidel]

Seeing as how I was called a TROLL! I decided I had to post evidence.

Game 5

Game 4

Game 3

Game 2

[Maidel]

Maxium of 4 pictures

Game 1

I realise that for game 1 and 2 I took the wrong screen shot, sorry, I over layed the save game so I couldnt go back and see it again, you will just have to take my word for it that I used the subs- but you can still see that I had no injuries.

[jon157uk]

Because most of us 'fan bois' have played the game a lot - in my case, over 200 hours with FM2011. We know how the game works. We know the difference between a bug, and a challenge that a player's struggling to adapt to.

The simple truth is that if people are having constant problems with injuries, they're doing something wrong. They're training their players too hard, they're playing them when tired, they're playing young players too often, they're pushing them too hard in their tactics.

Exactly why this is, I have no idea. Experiment. Change something you're doing. Change how often you're rotating players. Change your tactics. If you simply have a lot of games, injuries are inevitable and you may need to enlarge your squad.

Excuse me for saying so but that's a load of bollocks mate. If you read my post earlier in the thread I said that I'm also having loads of trouble with injuries yet I never train any harder than part-time medium and I never play anyone with less than 95% fitness. As for 'squad rotation' I think this game relies far too much on it because it has become part of the modern game, clubs these days are splashing out so much money they have virtually two full world beating squads at hand. If you're like me and don't want to run 'Moneybags United' but would much prefer a very small club to see how far you can get, there is no way you can stretch the budget you are given to, as you say 'enlarge your squad' so pretty soon you don't have enough players to do 'rotation'. If SI had taken that in to consideration when coding FM 11 they could have toned down the injuries a little for small clubs at least so that it didn't make the game so frustrating.

[Maidel]

Excuse me for saying so but that's a load of bollocks mate. If you read my post earlier in the thread I said that I'm also having loads of trouble with injuries yet I never train any harder than part-time medium and I never play anyone with less than 95% fitness.

This is a completely different issue to the one which the op has suggested. Im not convinced, but I could be with evidence that there are too many injuries in the game. However the op is saying that there is a specific bug with making early subsitutions and getting an injury - which is wrong, as I have proved above.

[jon157uk]

This is a completely different issue to the one which the op has suggested. Im not convinced, but I could be with evidence that there are too many injuries in the game. However the op is saying that there is a specific bug with making early subsitutions and getting an injury - which is wrong, as I have proved above.

Yes you're quite right mate, sorry I went a bit off topic there but I do also get a lot of what the OP points out in my games too. I'm not calling it a bug because I'm not even sure it is one, either way it is very, very annoying and frustrating when you struggle most matches to put a full team together because of so many injuries.

[sniell]

I think clicking on this thread just injured Adebayor for 4 weeks! :'( in the 88th minute of my game. I'd made a substition on 66th minute, then the final two in the 75th. How ironic. I'd post a screeenie but i'm uneducated on how to do so.

[Jay-Producer]

I think clicking on this thread just injured Adebayor for 4 weeks! :'( in the 88th minute of my game. I'd made a substition on 66th minute, then the final two in the 75th. How ironic. I'd post a screeenie but i'm uneducated on how to do so.

register with photobucket and upload your screen shot onto that and get the link to place on the forum.

[Jay-Producer]

I keep getting injuries from fully fit players, its ridiculous. Ironically close to 90% of them appear when I make all 3 subs on or before the 75th minute. I made 3 subs just after the 75th minute (75mins 13secs) and got a player injured immediately. Something is not quite right with the amount of injuries especially when 3 are made before the 75th minute. Not just in my current game but others I played also that's why I posted on here because its now becoming a trend.

[Maidel]

So Jay - no comments on my very scientific testing?

[Jay-Producer]

So Jay - no comments on my very scientific testing?

Interesting, too many injuries then? It seems the majority of injuries I get are when all 3 subs are made before the 75th minute which to me is very strange. When I make the final 3rd sub after the 75th minute I seem to get little injuries (but do still get them) compared to when making all subs before 75th min.

[Lazaru5]

So Jay - no comments on my very scientific testing?

I'll comment...

don't talk bull!

try doing it in 5 different games without saving in between instead of playing the same game with the same players under the exact same circumstances...

ironically, in the match that I've just played the AI team made all their subs before the 70th minute and my player got injured!! (I hadn't made any subs...) - aka Sod's Law

[Maidel]

I'll comment...

don't talk bull!

try doing it in 5 different games without saving in between instead of playing the same game with the same players under the exact same circumstances...

ironically, in the match that I've just played the AI team made all their subs before the 70th minute and my player got injured!! (I hadn't made any subs...) - aka Sod's Law

Im sorry - but what is your issue?

I just tested exactly the Ops situation - I made subsitutions all in one go at every 10 minutes and repeated to see if there was an issue.

I didnt find one. It wouldnt have made any difference if I done 5 consecutive games.

Im sorry that you have an issue with the game - but it simply does not exist, and if it does, it cant be reproduced so it isnt a bug, maybe all your players have really bad hidden attributes?

[noikeee]

If you're doing 3 earlier substitutions than usual, chances are you're doing it because your players are tired, and if your players are tired chances are higher someone'll grab an injury.

[Coentrao]

I think the problem is somewhat linked with those condition drops from a knock(or sometimes not even a knock and they just drop to 60-70% condition on the first half) that happen way too often and force subs early on.

[Jay-Producer]

Whatever the problem may be there is something going on which does not reflect real life. My training schedules for all players are medium (highest point for medium without going into high). Players going into games are 96%+ for fitness levels, with most 98%+. At half time most players are above 80% so it can't really be fitness levels or fatigue as players getting injured is mixed between those very low in fitness and those high.

[Maidel]

Whatever the problem may be there is something going on which does not reflect real life. My training schedules for all players are medium (highest point for medium without going into high). Players going into games are 96%+ for fitness levels, with most 98%+. At half time most players are above 80% so it can't really be fitness levels or fatigue as players getting injured is mixed between those very low in fitness and those high.

Ah, now you are making some sense. I have players as well that suddenly drop from 80% to 60% in the space of 5 minutes with no on pitch explaination.

That is a totally separate issue, one which I strongly agree with.

[jon157uk]

OK here we go again...... This very thing has just happened again not more than ten minutes ago! I was just playing an away match and as usual my players were getting kicked to death by the oppo, in the first half alone the physio had been on five times and I've already got two players playing with the 'green/white cross' and not a single card shown for any of it. Second half started and my two green cross boys are already down to 60 and 57% so they're deffo not going to see the game out, I make two substitutions and replace them at around 63 minutes, 3 minutes later my centre back fouls/trips one of their strikers and gets a straight red, I'm not left with much choice so I take off a striker and put on a defender (all three subs now used and we're at about 78 minutes). First of all it looks like we might be OK as a long ball over the top dropped nicely for my one remaining striker and he put it away first time, 1 - 0, couldn't believe my luck. Unfortunately luck is all it was because the game had better ideas, 3 minutes after the restart my striker (who just happens to be my leading scorer and has only been back in the side for 2 matches after injury) is clobbered yet again and has to come straight off with condition down to 42%. At 5 minutes to go I'm getting battered and end up losing 1 - 2..... Well sod this cheating game, I quite the match and will replay it later!!

[Maidel]

Sorry, what part of your described game is either cheating, unrealistic or unfair?

[jon157uk]

Sorry, what part of your described game is either cheating, unrealistic or unfair?

Ermmm.... let me think! Oh yea maybe the way my players were being kicked to death and no action was taken by the ref to stop it, or maybe the stupid way I was forced in to using all three subs after my bloke got a straight red for his first foul, or maybe the way my striker was carried off yet again after I'd used all three subs.... I'm not really sure, mybe you'll work it out for me?

[dafuge]

try doing it in 5 different games without saving in between instead of playing the same game with the same players under the exact same circumstances...

Actually, using the same match makes sense. It shows that the number of subs that have been made has no influence on the number of injuries since all the other variables are roughly the same in each match. Obviously it would be better of it was repeated more times and maybe with earlier and earlier subs but it is a sensible test.

[Man Ray]

Always?

How many different versions of the game are on sale?

I quite regularly use all subs before an hour has passed (either if team/individual players don't perform, or even more often, when I'm leading comfortably I throw in youngsters to save the legs of starting XI). Haven't been counting, but I'd say it's very, very rare that I play with 10 men. Probably not even every season (red cards are obviously a different thing).

Also, in pre-season I always change the whole team at half-time. Never I've had to use the twelfth sub.

My vote goes for "memory playing tricks on you".

[jon157uk]

My vote goes for "memory playing tricks on you".

Hahahaha.... So you reckon I've had memory failure from a match I only (tried) to play less than half an hour ago?

[Steve Cox]

If you think there's some code in the game saying "Injure players after 3 subs are made" then I'm afraid you're wrong.

However if you really think there's a bug in the code you should be posting in the bugs forum. But as seen here some people think it's happening some don't. Personally while playing. I can't say I've seen it, though I have had players get injured after 3 subs, that does happen in Real life too. If it's happening every game over a long period then it could be a bug and it should be reported with saved games and screen shots where possible and we'll look into it.

[dafuge]

My vote goes for "memory playing tricks on you".

Hahahaha.... So you reckon I've had memory failure from a match I only (tried) to play less than half an hour ago?

You are more likely to remember the times when things have gone wrong rather than when they haven't. That stinker of a match will leave a big impression on you, the match where you made three subs and got no injuries won't.

[jon157uk]

You are more likely to remember the times when things have gone wrong rather than when they haven't. That stinker of a match will leave a big impression on you, the match where you made three subs and got no injuries won't.

Yes I agree with you here to a point mate but I seem to be getting more and more bad memories!

[Maidel]

Actually, using the same match makes sense. It shows that the number of subs that have been made has no influence on the number of injuries since all the other variables are roughly the same in each match. Obviously it would be better of it was repeated more times and maybe with earlier and earlier subs but it is a sensible test.

I was originally gonna do 10 tests, but 5 took the best part of an hour and I had a baby to look after.

I purposely didn't do pre half time subs as I felt that it wouldn't be a fair test. Using all subs in the first 10 minutes and then getting an injury in the 90th minute wouldn't have proved anything to me other than a tired player got injured in the last minute.

I'd love someone else to repeat my test, but I'm not wasting another hour of my life on this

[jon157uk]

If you think there's some code in the game saying "Injure players after 3 subs are made" then I'm afraid you're wrong.

However if you really think there's a bug in the code you should be posting in the bugs forum. But as seen here some people think it's happening some don't. Personally while playing. I can't say I've seen it, though I have had players get injured after 3 subs, that does happen in Real life too. If it's happening every game over a long period then it could be a bug and it should be reported with saved games and screen shots where possible and we'll look into it.

As I said before Steve, I'm not so sure I'd call it a bug myself, it just seems to be one of those recurring anomalies that FM throws up and it's very frustrating and annoying mate. For me, I'd say turn down the fouls/injuries as there are far too many of both anyway, less fouls would surely equal less injuries?

[rick111]

always happens to me

[Jay-Producer]

If you think there's some code in the game saying "Injure players after 3 subs are made" then I'm afraid you're wrong.

However if you really think there's a bug in the code you should be posting in the bugs forum. But as seen here some people think it's happening some don't. Personally while playing. I can't say I've seen it, though I have had players get injured after 3 subs, that does happen in Real life too. If it's happening every game over a long period then it could be a bug and it should be reported with saved games and screen shots where possible and we'll look into it.

I put a thread up in the bugs forum under other. I also linked it to this thread for further discussion and I cant upload files - I reported dozens of bugs last year and had to get someone else to upload the game files for me. If you like I can upload the game somewhere for you to put it up for me?

[Roberto Larcos]

lol getting way too much debating here...

imo i think it may be a bug...to test this i loaded up a game & made 3 subs by 78min & a player got injured.

i did this 3 times to make sure

[Maidel]

And each time you got an injury?

The thing is I tried the same thing above 5 times and produced no injuries.

Screen shots?

[Tubey84]

And each time you got an injury?

The thing is I tried the same thing above 5 times and produced no injuries.

Screen shots?

I'm currently in late January, on multiple occasions used all three subs with significant time to go, and only once seen an injury occur after they had been made.

This thread was answered with three words in the first reply.

"It's just perception."

[Jay-Producer]

The injuries do seem to be in the extreme though. Something is not right with the match engine when you constantly have 8-10 players out injured at any one time. I've dropped my training down to ease the players but still keep getting the causalities coming in. I ask players to relax during games and still get injuries when I make the 3rd sub.

[dafuge]

I suppose it will be linked to the number of injuries you get anyway. If your side suffers from regular injuries and you are making 3 subs well before the end of the match then you are asking for trouble.

How many injuries are people getting? I've had seven in my last twenty games (six red, one green), which is probably the worst crisis I've had this season (as you can see here). Are people getting a lot more than that?

[Maidel]

According to the current premierleague injury stats the modal average for injuries per club is 4 and the mean about 5. I've currently got 5 players out injured meaning I'm average. But if you have 10 this hardly means things are all wrong, because so long as EVERYONE doesn't have 10 injuries it all averages out.

Not to mention if you play in lower leagues with worse pysios you will get more injuries anyway.