What could FM learn from FIFA/PES?

[mertle]

to be honest like AI in the game which models players attitudes and career paths the ME is complex group of algorithms trying to re-enact the game we love.

Computer programming come along way in algorithm models and artificial Intellingence.

Yes things will still look wrong and daft things still happen. Game makers will make plays they call moves thousands and cobble them up to depict the game. I remember LMA gamers moaned it was repetitive I believe it had 1,000 moves.

I would think todays games will have 10-30 times of these routines to stpo repetitiveness and FM wont be any different. If the system different from how PES, FIFA is in design of 1,000's plays joined to represent the game then Im am sure without giving to much secrets away SI programming team will say yes or no.

Maybe the future is outside science computer team would write volumes complex algorithm scripts which games companies purchase not sure but I think AI routines are done this way again I am no expert but believe this is what game companies do.

Afterall they are experts in designing games not AI science specialists who can write code to imitate the human brain.

What people are asking for is yet way beyond computer design down we just getting computers emulate chess. Well you get what I am saying each player has to make decisions each manager too and all this has to be done within a logic way that a footballer would think to day at that point after analysis of current situation.

[lance101]

NepentheZ:

Did you see anything in my post, that relates to this exact matter? I never said those words either.

What you need to understand here, is that the ME is realistic.

=>How can you be so sure the ME is realistic, if the physics of the "gameworld" doesn't appear to be realistic? Reaslism isn't just about the match scores being in average right, it is also about the game in itself being played in a realistic way, with, for instance, a proper amount of goals from scrumbles in the area or rebounds.

What you're not happy about, is the graphical representation. SI have only introduced the 3D engine in FM09, and now we're in FM10 you're expecting the same graphical representation, as game that have been around for decades, that have a main focal point of game play and graphics.

=>I don't expect it to be just as good, but I expect FM to evolve towards it... or do you think that should not be the goal?

The lateral movement in FM is not lacking, in my opinion either. I'll just say what I said in my first post in this thread. SI have stated on numerous occasions, that the 2D and 3D engines may not always represent what the ME is doing.

=> Lol, so here you are saying that wingers are actually cutting more inside, under the hood, but si decided to not show us that in the 3d/2d representation of the game????

So in your 1-2 argument, just because you don't see it on the 3D representation, and just because you don't see players making the runs in to space in the 3D representation, doesn't mean its not happening underneath.

=> Again, I'm baffled by this kind of argument. Lots of 1-2s are happening, but SI doesn't think we would care to see...

A poster in this thread (backpackant, IIRC) - said, the FM graphics are meerely a "table cloth" for whats really going on underneath. Youneed to accept that, and accept the fact that, 2 FM versions ago, you only had a 2D pitch, where specific ball physics were completely irrelevant to the whole experience. You surely can't expect the development process of FIFA / PES style dynamics to be represented in FM in a heartbeat. Its something that will take an age to perfect, because the amount of variables involved in something like that, in an ME as intricate as FM's.

=> I accept time is needed, I just disagree that we should all say it is perfect now.

You seem to be comparing FM to "real life" with regards to many things, but are waving the fact that FIFA and PES also have many, many misrepresentations of real life football too. How many times have you seen Ronaldo drill in a Free Kick from 45 yards in real life? Maybe once. Maybe. Yet in FIFA10, I could probably do it 7 out of 10 times. And then ask yourself, how many times have you seen it on FM? None.

=> Again, I didn't say that FIFA or PES were realistic either, just asked if there were things to learn from them.

What I did there, was use a specific example to portray my point, which in this case, is more of an exception than a rule, and with the Farrows, Barrows and Sarrows being removed, you've done the exact same thing. You've picked up on 1 thing.

=> That "one thing" is quite important in my view... For instance right now SI is having a hard time balancing scoring between wingers and strikers. It would probably be a lot easier if wingers could be told to play more centrally.

Personally, I love the new tactics module. (I first fell in love with it in FML, and was delighted they adapted it to FM10). However, the tactical side of games like PES and FIFA are lacking in substantial volumes when compared to FM, simply because its really not the direction the game is heading in.

=> I agree totally with this. But that doesn't mean that there are no lessons to be learned.

That takes me back to my initial point, that trying to compare pretty much any aspect of the game to that of a Football Simulator, is really a non-existent argument. And before we get onto the fanboi insults, please, just stop. Yes, I love FM. And yes, I will back it to the 9's if I think a debate about it is being wrongly argued, however, I'm also fully aware that its not perfect, and have been involved in many discussions over the years with regards to the games flaws.

=> So why the need to completely refute my post of the bat? If I have nothing constructive to say about someone's post I will just move along, not try to make the OP look stupid for even thinking of such a thing.

[Mitja]

So in your 1-2 argument, just because you don't see it on the 3D representation, and just because you don't see players making the runs in to space in the 3D representation, doesn't mean its not happening underneath. A poster in this thread (backpackant, IIRC) - said, the FM graphics are meerely a "table cloth" for whats really going on underneath.

I'm driving a Ferrari disguised in 15 years old WWGolf... you just can't see it

[NepentheZ]

=>How can you be so sure the ME is realistic, if the physics of the "gameworld" doesn't appear to be realistic? Reaslism isn't just about the match scores being in average right, it is also about the game in itself being played in a realistic way, with, for instance, a proper amount of goals from scrumbles in the area or rebounds.

=>I don't expect it to be just as good, but I expect FM to evolve towards it... or do you think that should not be the goal?

=> Lol, so here you are saying that wingers are actually cutting more inside, under the hood, but si decided to not show us that in the 3d/2d representation of the game????

=> Again, I'm baffled by this kind of argument. Lots of 1-2s are happening, but SI doesn't think we would care to see...

=> I accept time is needed, I just disagree that we should all say it is perfect now.

=> Again, I didn't say that FIFA or PES were realistic either, just asked if there were things to learn from them.

=> That "one thing" is quite important in my view... For instance right now SI is having a hard time balancing scoring between wingers and strikers. It would probably be a lot easier if wingers could be told to play more centrally.

=> I agree totally with this. But that doesn't mean that there are no lessons to be learned.

=> So why the need to completely refute my post of the bat? If I have nothing constructive to say about someone's post I will just move along, not try to make the OP look stupid for even thinking of such a thing.

I honestly didn't attempt to make you look stupid, and apologise if thats how my post came across. However, the way you've tried to make your point, is by comparing 2 completely different entities. Had you opened with a post about the Graphics Module in FM, and potentially referred to those of FIFA and PES as examples of where FM could go with its graphics, I would have agreed with you, because you're right, the graphics in FM are not as good as those of FIFA and PES. My point still stands though, that these are games that have had decades to work on this, as its one of the focal points of sale for them, where as FM has only recently introduced 3D to its game.

[lance101]

Just though of something that was implemented in PES a while ago that doesn't seem to be present in FM... fast taken free kicks! In FM, after a foul, the game is always stopped for a little while, and players never try to take the free kicks fast, preferring instead to let the defense reposition itself.

[Freindly lemon]

As above fifa has the option of fast free kicks should be in fm.

[monkeezgob]

It's an utterly pointless comparison; FM is a management simulation, PES and Fifa are button masher games.

[Ellis_D]

Did you see anything in my post, that relates to this exact matter? I never said those words either.

What you need to understand here, is that the ME is realistic. What you're not happy about, is the graphical representation. SI have only introduced the 3D engine in FM09, and now we're in FM10 you're expecting the same graphical representation, as game that have been around for decades, that have a main focal point of game play and graphics. The lateral movement in FM is not lacking, in my opinion either. I'll just say what I said in my first post in this thread. SI have stated on numerous occasions, that the 2D and 3D engines may not always represent what the ME is doing. So in your 1-2 argument, just because you don't see it on the 3D representation, and just because you don't see players making the runs in to space in the 3D representation, doesn't mean its not happening underneath. A poster in this thread (backpackant, IIRC) - said, the FM graphics are meerely a "table cloth" for whats really going on underneath. Youneed to accept that, and accept the fact that, 2 FM versions ago, you only had a 2D pitch, where specific ball physics were completely irrelevant to the whole experience. You surely can't expect the development process of FIFA / PES style dynamics to be represented in FM in a heartbeat. Its something that will take an age to perfect, because the amount of variables involved in something like that, in an ME as intricate as FM's. You seem to be comparing FM to "real life" with regards to many things, but are waving the fact that FIFA and PES also have many, many misrepresentations of real life football too. How many times have you seen Ronaldo drill in a Free Kick from 45 yards in real life? Maybe once. Maybe. Yet in FIFA10, I could probably do it 7 out of 10 times. And then ask yourself, how many times have you seen it on FM? None. What I did there, was use a specific example to portray my point, which in this case, is more of an exception than a rule, and with the Farrows, Barrows and Sarrows being removed, you've done the exact same thing. You've picked up on 1 thing. Personally, I love the new tactics module. (I first fell in love with it in FML, and was delighted they adapted it to FM10). However, the tactical side of games like PES and FIFA are lacking in substantial volumes when compared to FM, simply because its really not the direction the game is heading in. That takes me back to my initial point, that trying to compare pretty much any aspect of the game to that of a Football Simulator, is really a non-existent argument. And before we get onto the fanboi insults, please, just stop. Yes, I love FM. And yes, I will back it to the 9's if I think a debate about it is being wrongly argued, however, I'm also fully aware that its not perfect, and have been involved in many discussions over the years with regards to the games flaws.

Please tell me how?! If only I could score ONE just ONE goal from a freekick on FIFA I would be happy! I actually think I'm brilliant at the game - I usually beat all my mates - but that is the one thing I haven't mastered!

[Ellis_D]

Yes, that was quite subjective I see just now

Tell me something, how long did you play fifa and how long pes?

For the record, I bought PES on the day of release, as I think it has been the best over the past 3 years. I found it full of annoying bugs, just like last year. They learnt nothing. I'm sick of playing PES because your defenders make stupid runs across to the wing and leave masive gaps in the middle. The goalkeepers STILL can't throw to defenders properly. The strikers are contantly offside in stupid positions. The referees give ridiculous yellow and red cards.

You put the ball in the box, press the shoot button for your striker to head or shoot, instead he makes a stupid slide tackle, fouls the player, and gets booked or sent off.

So, after years of loyalty to PES, I bought FIFA a couple of months back after months of frustration with Pro Evo. What a breath of fresh air. FIFA absolutely pees all over PES, it is much better.

However, you can't compare either to FM. FM is completely different, but much MUCH better.

After a couple of seasons on PES or FIFA, I get bored. Playing the AI becomes far, far too easy. I only ever play it now with my cousins and mates, and then it is enjoyable.

But FM is much better than both.

[Ellis_D]

It's an utterly pointless comparison; FM is a management simulation, PES and Fifa are button masher games.

Agreed. How many years would it take for FM to get to the level of graphics needed to be like PES or FIFA? Equally, how many years would it take PES or FIFA to get to the level of tctics, transfers, player interaction, etc to be like FM?

They are completely different types of games, and I'm guessing FM would have to go 64 bit before they could even dream of incorporating this. Something I'm not too bothered about anyway. If I want to 'play' I will go with FIFA. If I want to 'manage' I will go with FM, simple as that.

[Deisler26]

But you see I did explain. And you just want more, I'll give you an example of behind the scene stuff. The player is shooting the ball. He has the attribute for shooting 80/100. This means that the ball will travel for lets say 80 virtual km/h to simplify. The keeper has reflex of 70/100 meaning hell jump for it in 0.3 seconds. If he had 90 reflex he'll jump in 0.2. Then you take the virtual distance therefore the time the ball travels and you have a calculation of weather the goal is scored or not.

I assume you are still not satisfied?

I'm sorry, but I had to comment on this.

What you're saying is that EVERY time someone with a better shooting stat than the goalkeeper's saving stat will score?

[lance101]

I'm sorry, but I had to comment on this.

What you're saying is that EVERY time someone with a better shooting stat than the goalkeeper's saving stat will score?

That's not how it works in PES either... even in PES there is a random factor influencing if shots go in or not.

[coldlemon897]

excellent 3d matches (PES)

[Bradmonk]

nothing. because the fundamentals of the game are completely different. FIFA and Pro Evo are built around the match engine, that is the core of the game. FM is about managing a club and everything that goes with it.

I personally think they should scrap the 3D side of gaming completely and just focus on what made Football Manager briliant. This game would be a lot better if the 3D was scrapped because SI would focus on what really matters.

[coldlemon897]

I love the match engine of FM 10..Its just that if the 3d is like the one in PES..I would love it

[hursty2]

FIFA is unrealistic because everythingd made to happen within a short space of time whereas FM is realtime.

[Guest El Payaso]

I love the match engine of FM 10..Its just that if the 3d is like the one in PES..I would love it

Then you don't like watching real football I guess?

This is an interesting thread. I just watched a video in youtube where a guy played match with Man Utd vs. Chelsea. Chelsea won 1-0. In the first minute of the video there was more poor passes, good tackles and interceptions than you see in whole match in FM.

If you watch real football, you can see passes that ruin attacks because they're not pinpointed. Also most of the crosses are, well, rubbish compared to FM. If players played in real life like they do in FM, we would almost always see 10 goal games. That's why FM must make strikers miss clear-cut chances and good goal scoring opportunities so much.

Sorry about my English. Hopely you got my idea.

[NepentheZ]

Please tell me how?! If only I could score ONE just ONE goal from a freekick on FIFA I would be happy! I actually think I'm brilliant at the game - I usually beat all my mates - but that is the one thing I haven't mastered!

There are plenty of tutorials on YouTube

Thats how I learnt.

[santy001]

One thing Fifa should learn to do is research that just because a player is in the premiership and not league 2 doesn't automatically make him 20 points better at pace lol. Scholes, Neville etc are faster than most players in leagues 1 and 2 on FIFA. PES is just a calamity slowly getting itself back together so no need to go there lol.

There is however, a slight argument for what FM could learn from FIFA manager. I'm not sure if they still have it, but I played TCM03 and 04 and there was form on that where players had their basic current level of ability, ie say a PA of 150. Whilst in good form, this would go up to something like 157/158 on FM and when in poor form down to 142/143. That is one of the few things I would like to see incorporated on some level.

[Erik7]

I'm sorry, but I had to comment on this.

What you're saying is that EVERY time someone with a better shooting stat than the goalkeeper's saving stat will score?

No. That was just a very, very simplified example of engines calculations. Thought that would be obvious.

[Seftinho]

I've bought all the CM games up to and including this year (having got both FM games the past two years, and much preferring FM this year; haven't even touched CM since FM arrived), there are a few things that I prefer in CM.

1) Being able to see the other league tables without having the leagues running.

In CM you can see the league tables of all the other playable leagues, even when you don't have them running. Doesn't slow the game down at all (or if it does, it's very minimal), and is what part of the game I feel is really missing from FM. Gives you a better feeling of realism, and is interesting to be able to see the other tables.

Doesn't help that my comp is very slow so I can only run the English leagues on FM.

2) The scouting system in CM10 is very, very nice. Although the reports are shocking, the scouting system itself is realistic, effective and so much easier to use than FMs.

There are few other things that I love in CM, but FM is so much better in all the areas that count. The realism, the international side of things, the World Rankings work so much better and more realistic, the UEFA co-efficient, which is missing from CM, the CAs and PAs are far more realistic, etc.

If I remember the other things I like about CM, I will post them up.

[Celts1888]

The point of this thread is not to diss on the weakness of FM, but instead to constructively discuss what FM can learn from other games, like FIFA or PES, especially in terms of ME.

-ME - Besides the very obvious issue of graphics, which I'm not sure should be a priority for SI, there are other things that if FM got closer to FIFA or PES would improve the realism of the game, the main one being, IMO, physics. The ball bounces about a lot more in those games (especially in PES, the one I know better of the two). This would make passing, dribbling, trapping a lot more realistic in FM if implemented. It shouldn't be as easy it as it is at times in FM to string 5 or 6 first touch passes in midfield between championship players!

Also, a smaller issue I have with the matches in FM is the lack of 1-2 combinations. These are fairly common in PES and would add more diversity to the attacking in FM.

Player movement is certainly an area where FM can improve, but in this case I believe it is miles ahead of the competition.

-Tactics - FM is miles ahead of those games in the tactics department, but not without some weaknesses. PES allows you an irrealistic control over the position of a player in the field, but in doing so allows you a leeway over lateral movement of players sadly lacking in FM.

I believe that most other areas of these games relevant for a managing game are miles behind FM, but would be interested in hearing other peoples views on this, and even, dare I say, things that CM does better than FM, so that by raising discussion we could help SI improve even more our beloved game!

They could learn how not to name their league competions master league and their teams Man red and London blue.

[totalfootball]

FM could learn how to completely mess up a half decent game and then totally deny that it is an issue if they look at FIFA 10

oops, too late

[Sir_Liam]

The only thing SI could learn from Konami is how not to do things. For every nice new feature in Pro Evo, I always find 2 useful things they've taken away. And don't get me started on the online play.

[Ellis_D]

There are plenty of tutorials on YouTube

Thats how I learnt.

Cheers fella, I will look it up

[Ellis_D]

One thing Fifa should learn to do is research that just because a player is in the premiership and not league 2 doesn't automatically make him 20 points better at pace lol. Scholes, Neville etc are faster than most players in leagues 1 and 2 on FIFA.

I see exactly what you are seeing here mate, but this is the main problem on 'playing' football games. Pace sets the players apart more than any other stat. If Scholes for instance was slower than a League 2 player he would be less effective on FIFA than he is in real-life.

Look at Obafemi Martins, extremely quick, which means on game like FIFA and PES he is world class, I can score so many with him, lots more than I would with a player like Crouch, Huntelaar, Raul, Totti, etc.

You need the pace to beat players, and to catch players up; in FIFA and PES slow players are too ineffective.

This is an advantage that management sims like FM have because the best players don't just have to rely on pace.

[coldlemon897]

Then you don't like watching real football I guess?

This is an interesting thread. I just watched a video in youtube where a guy played match with Man Utd vs. Chelsea. Chelsea won 1-0. In the first minute of the video there was more poor passes, good tackles and interceptions than you see in whole match in FM.

If you watch real football, you can see passes that ruin attacks because they're not pinpointed. Also most of the crosses are, well, rubbish compared to FM. If players played in real life like they do in FM, we would almost always see 10 goal games. That's why FM must make strikers miss clear-cut chances and good goal scoring opportunities so much.

Sorry about my English. Hopely you got my idea.

Your english is okay and i understand what you mean..It's just that i like the graphics in PES 10.. But if SI would want to make the game look like real life, i would definitely want to play it more as it is realistic..just didn't really know whether SI would want to do it..But if they c an, I'd say it's AWESOME!!

[Erik7]

I'd like to pint out a couple of things.

There is only effective time in PES. Time actually stops when the ball is out of play or when in set piece. Effective time in a real life match is about 20 minutes for a half. Given that real teams tend to waste time more often then not, I think that 10 min. for a half in PES (the widely accepted math time) is about realistic as you can get timevise.

You have this camera that lets you see pretty much anything in any time. Next to that you have the radar. These two things are giving you the vision of "seven Zidanes". For PES to try to be realistic for you you'll have to give control to a computer.

[Marshbagz]

Quite possibly the most ridiculous thread on the whole forum..Take it down..Utter garbage..Football manager is quite possibly the greatest game ever created on any format..The fact that we all visit this site proves it..The fact that we payed money for the game proves this..To compare it to those 2 games is in my opinion very stupid..

[Heelswxman]

It really should be the other way around. What can FIFA and PES learn from FM?

Having played FIFA non-stop for years, I can say that FIFA could learn a ton from FM. I've been members of other boards and have talked to EA developers before about this very issue. They kind of poo-pooed on me saying that FIFA isn't meant to be that deep. Oh well.

[Helicon]

Satisfying ball physics in FM would certainly add a significant amount to the enjoyability of the Match Engine in my opinion.

Both FIFA and PES aren't that strong on this front I don't think, FM should take a leaf out of Football Kingdom's attempt:

The finishing is so satisfying, and really feels like proper goals, it would be wonderful to see something like this in FM.