Oh Dear Oh Dear

[Riverplate]

Unfortunatly I have to agree to some of the things Tie Figter says. Over the last few years the game has moved away from a sports sim that the old CM used to be, and more to a strategy game, where if you know how to beat the AI you will have success. I think those who are struggling (including myself) are still trying to play the game like a sim. If outwiting the AI rather than the opposition team is the only way to win that takes all the fun out of the game for me and I think eventually will lead to the end of the FM title.

come on, you exaggerate too much. Football is a game of strategy and you need it to beat the opponent. They just need to tweak the defense and long shots a little bit and we be fine. In my games good players play good and ****** players well, always end up doing mistakes. every year is the same crap, "oh this is the worse version ever, its too hard, its too easy, doesnt feel like a footie sim anymore, too much strategy involved". Which game that you bought has completely no problems and its flawless? none. games are made by humans.

[Pawel_lfc]

Hopefully it will be sorted with the second soon to be released second patch.

Any day now

[FestyF]

Tie Fighter, it's your tactics.

[skimmerman]

Why do we do this every year SI brings FM out, we part with our lovely cash and think this is going to be the one. I said this on a post last year that SI is getting there and i think when they sort out the silly bugs its going to be one of the best games on the market. I do understand where you are coming from Tie Fighter and it does get annoying for 80% of the gamers me included but we play it because we enjoy it. So if you look past the bugs and start enjoying it yourself you might start to enjoy it better. Best Regards.

[FestyF]

it does get annoying for 80% of the gamers

......let me rephrase it..."it does get annoying for 80% of the moaners...".

remaining 20% of the moaners don't post in the forums.

[Santa Cruz]

come on, you exaggerate too much. Football is a game of strategy and you need it to beat the opponent.

And thats exactly who you should be playing, your opponent, not trying to find a way to outsmart the AI that plays seemingly to a different set of rules.

Which game that you bought has completely no problems and is flawless?

Old CM's one to five I thought were pretty flawless at the time.

Every year is the same crap "oh this is the worst version ever"

I don't know if your new to the series but I think its pretty unanimos that FM was better as a game and needed fewer patches even four or five years ago.

I don't want to sound like I'm having a moan (which I guess I am) but I feel that as the game gets pre-occupied with being pretty it gets futher away from the origional fans. who played casualy and never had the time to spend cracking AI tactics.

[grade]

I agree with Santa Cruz on this one it is no longer a Football simulation, but strategy game where you need to micromanaging your tactics. But the thing is what about the players like me that picked a tactic and start playing. Yes, of course that isn't real but to be honest I like the ME to be real then the freaking tactics department. last time I check this game wasn't Tactic Manager 2010. I know in real life that most managers change tactics from game to game, but you not by any chance be like in real life. What I mean that this game will come a point that just to prepare for each game it will take an entire week. People like me and you don't even grasp the notion of how much preparing a team does. Even if it gets to that level, why would I spent 50 euros for game, if I just go for real to manager School and become certify Manager. This is freaking game.

But what really irritates me is that old bugs seemed to come back. Isn't this supposed to be built from other games? I haven't read ME written from scratch since FM05. To be honest FM05 had its bugs, but it nothing compared to now a days. I feel that more each release, more bugs the games has and the majority are the same bugs. FM07 had its bugs and still has 1 or 2 from time to time and hard selling players and low interest in players the reached 35 years, the rest is fine, why not build on that?. The thing is I have a sensation that SI just builds everything from scratch on every release.

I don't understand of continuous insistence in Press Conference? It is one of those situation for the sake of real and its the most boring feature ever. Personally quite like the idea at first, but to be honest it will always be a boring feature no matter how many questions you put it, especially on long term careers, it will never feel like real Press Conference. Why keep insisting on it?

Note: What I really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really hate is the stupid .fmf files. They should be banned for being used forever.

[graemeS]

Tie Fighter -- I wholeheartedly agree with you. I had high expectations of FM2010 and usually end up enjoying most verisons of the game. I have found several aspects of this version, however, close to stupid.

here are my biggest issues with the game

1 completely unrealistic and overexaggerated 'influences' on the match

for example, as you rightly point out, the big teams far too frequently losing in unavoidable fashion - regardless of tactics and form etc - against poor sides. I know it would never be possible to go through a season unbeaten as occasionally happens in real life. The game is set up with a childish, "thou shallt lose against some little sides for no apparent reason" outlook! It's more like a bug than a real challenge because one cannot overcome the problem, however good one's team

2 Form is ridiculous. Three matches will be lost inexplicably 3-0 and 2-0, then suddenly 3 successive wins, then you draw 4 in a row. This ties in with point 1.

3 Boring - and pointless - peripheral undertakings. The teamtalks hardly have any influence that one can perceive and rapidly become a 'necessary evil.' One enters team talks purely because one fears not entering anything at all. Press conferences are even worse. Absolutely futile. On one occasion, I was asked about a new signing. Is it a massive coup? the options went through to 'this is the kind of player this club should be attracting' - which i selected. The player then became offended because I didn't claim he was a coup! That's absurd and pointless. There's no way of predicting how players will react to innocuous comments unless you know the programming or play it for seasons so you learn what to choose in what situation. I find that puerile and distracting.

4 youth players have ridiculously low statistics. The fact is, when a player is 15, they may very well have technique of 19 and passing of 15. What they lack is physical and mental attributes. It's right that some of these would be a bit lower. However, it's absurd that potentially world class players at 17 might have the statistics of a non-league player.

5 The game is way too slow. You soon get bored with the peripheral crap wasting time and the unworkable match engine creating entirely unrealistic scenarios, as if it's just ridden with bugs.

6 BUGS. The fact is there are so many bugs in SI's release, how many match engine bugs are there that one cannot even perceive? Probably scores of them! The fact one cannot perceive them because one cannot see them doesn't alter this fact.

7 Crashes: ridiculous to release yet another bug-ridden game needing a patch after 1 week. Worse still, some people report endless crashes.

8 Lack of a handbook. They could at least provide a nice guide detailing some basic tactical considerations in order to get some insight into how the match engine works. The fact is this game is not real life. In order to play it well, you have to stick to the rules of the match engine. For example, in real life, sometimes 4-4-2 will work against 5-3-2 and sometimes it won't. In this game, I think certain tactics are designed to be unplayable against certain others, in a wholly inaccessable, unrealistic way. You shouldn't have to alter your tactics in order to play bottom of the league teams. And even if you opt to, you cannot know which tactics to use because it's not about real life, it's about sticking to the rules of the program. How the hell am I meant to know what formation SI claims works best against 4-4-2?!

9 scouting. Scouting is pretty crappy. You rarely find gems, however hard you look. I don't ever recall any of my scouts - even when i had 10 of them in FM09 - finding a great player or even a recommended player in africa. Why not? This is an exercise in futility. There should be a few hidden gems, undiscovered geniuses, thrown in around the world. That's what happens in RL. Crystal Palace found Ian Wright playing in the non-league as did Forest with Birtles as did Forest with Pearce etc.

10 Too little investment by chairmen at big clubs. In RL, the board might pump in 100 mil over 2 seasons for players. I've never seen this in FM09

11 Too little interest in players. In RL, you might get interest in 4 or 5 players a season. On FM2010, unless you transfer list players, you rarely get a bid and even if there is interest, it's only mild interest. In 3 years at newcastle, only once did i get persistent bids for one player that resulted in the club coming back with ever higher bids. In real life, that happens a fair bit. Many of the players - eg shola ameobi - i transfer listed and offered to clubs for 0 despite him being worth 2 million. Yet no offers - ever - despite several attempts to offload him over 3 seasons. How realistic is this? If you offer a player worth 2 mil for 0, someone is going to offer for him!

12 The overall ethos of the game has become diluted. In the past, it was a bit simplistic but fun. Now there's too much absolute nonsense ruining the playing experience. Press conferences are a WASTE of TIME. No one enjoys them because they're crap. If they do enjoy the press conferences, they should probably be weaving baskets rather than playing FM2010. Team talks are also unrealistic and a WASTE of TIME. SI would be better off creating a quantitative rather than qualitative approach to these features. eg. for team talks, you can select a motivation score 0-10 where 0 allows them to relax and 10 really keys them up. But if you select 10 game after game, the effect wanes or players get tired. So you can use it but you have to use it judiciously. That would be more much enjoyable that selecting from 3 or 4 absolutely meaningless phrases, which have no overall effect. Using an approach like this, they should strip away all the superficial nonsense and work on coming up with a more realistic match engine for 2011 with performance based primarily on TALENT and to a much lesser extent on form, fitness and tactics. If they stop piling on the tedious layers of nonsense and get to work on developing better artificial intelligence, i would be truly impressed. It's sad that playing championshi manager italia from 1995 is more fulfilling than FM2010.

Sad but true.

I'll finish my season as newcastle then put the game away in a dusty cupboard because life is too short for this absolute nonsense.

[Mojby]

With players and money, I would have thought money is the main motivation - especially as players move towards 30. As for players not been suited to certain tactics - how is it possible for them to lose 1 in 11 conceeding 6 and then (after game is reloaded), go on such a miserable run - against poorer opposition - with the same tactics? Player for player - mine were superior in each case and dominated the vast majority of games in the losing streak.

I am sure that I read somewhere on FM2009 that no matter what form you are on, if you save the game and re-load it, your form at the start of the save game is random and does not necessarily continue the form you were in when you saved the game.

This is **** poor in my opinion as you should have the same form that you were on when you saved the game. Off course this could work in your favour if you were on a poor run and then get a good run after loading the saved game.

It looks like the same is happening on FM2010. I do not have the game yet (will be a christmas present from wife) so cannot say for sure if this was a) correct on FM2009 or b) is the same on FM2010.

Cheers

[graemeS]

That's my criticism.

Here's my suggestions for 2011

1 enhance the match engine! We're not idiots! That's the basis of enjoying the game and atm it's just not up to scratch! Firstly, talent should be the most important criterion, then form, then perhaps management rating of the manager then fitness and confidence and squad happiness etc all playing minor roles. Surely this is not impossible for a group of 30 people to devise? A match engine that does not insult the intelligence!

2 teamtalks should be as described above. Relaxation 0 - 10 motivation. 10 is a kick up the arse and throwing cups, 0 is relaxing the players. In big games, they might not need motivation (depending on the personal qualities of the players eg determination and the leadership at the club eg captain and manager) and 0 might work better. Against smaller teams, they might or might not need a 10. the higher figures' effects should wane with overuse and mentally fatigue the players so that one has to use it judiciously.

That would end up being more realistic, more fathomable and more workable than choosing one of 4 or 5 phrases which have no measurable effect and which one cannot understand because one cannot see how the match engine calculates the effects of these. I mean, for example, "I have faith in your ability!" - when do you use this? In what circumstances? With which players? I don't know and it's impossible to work it out! It's a waste of time and deeply frustrating.

3 press conferences - just get rid of them. absolute nonsense.

4 scouting - make it more worthwhile to scout players, there should be a few scattered geniuses hidden away in each generatiojn playing in africa or scandanavia or even in the non-league. Perhaps a few players with technique of 20, passing of 19 and flair of 20 without being particularly fast. You take them out of the conference and put them in a good team and they come alive. That would make the game more exciting and fulfilling. It would also be more realistic -- because a lot of players in the lower leagues have excellent technique and passing. Some of them better than prem players - they just might lack determination or pace or have been under-motivated by their managers. On the other hand, you might find some with poor technique and passing but amazing pace and power. Everyone in the lower leagues is uniformly crap on fm2010! That's not realistic. In FM2010, every player in the lower divisions has ratings around the 12 level! It's ridiculous!

5 improve the variation and quantity of feedback for managers from fans. A repetitive "fans are upset and think x, y, z should be dropped and a, b c selected in their place" is a joke. It's absolute nonsense. If you select a, b, c, the fans will then moan in the next game that x,y,z were not selected! It's absolutely crass! Fans should express opinions on discussion boards, "eg we wish the team played prettier football" or "the fans are launching a campaign against brad friedel because they don't think her merits a place in the side". The chairman could thank you once or twice a season and criticise you every so often. The club could honour a 10 year manager with a testimonial. Stuff like that would be better than spending hours on pointless press conferences. Not just 3 or 4 repeated phrases but 100 or 200 different bits of feedback to keep you truly motivated. After 15 seasons and 10 league titles, perhaps they might build a statue of you!

6 reputation. Once a manager has become 'world class,' he should not sink back to being national after 2 seasons outside the top flight!!!! I won 7 back to back leagues and 3 european cups with juventus on fm2009. Then i chose to move to dynamo dresden and spent 2 seasons building up the squad. My reputation became 'national' and i couldn't get a decent job! This is just ridiculous given that i was ranked two or three in the all-time hall of fame. Once a a great reputation has been earned, it should remain is world class or become legendary once the spell of greatness is over and remain as legendary. The same is true of formerly world class players, Even at 37 with no pace, they should remain legends and you should benefit from their legendary status. That's how it works in real life.

anyway, just some suggestions. The match engine is the most important thing.

Frankly, fm2009-2010 and 2010-2011 are amateurish. I mean, fm2009 had more bugs than you'd find a mug of spanish tap water. Absolutely stupid oversights were present everywhere. For example, you could get a team promoted through 4 divisions back to back and then get sacked after 20 games becaus eyou're bottom of the prem and sold a player the fans liked! They've improved that in 2010-11 with the long term 'status' bar. That was a suggestion I made back in 2008. So perhaps someone somewhere does read this stuff.

[graemeS]

i'm going to read tctical theorems 10 - to see if there are any useful insights that can be used in this game. But if not, it will be going into a cupboard! BTW, if your wife hasn't got this game for you yet, tell her to buy you some stella artois instead!

[JoeLatics]

It's your tactics, they get cracked when you use the same ones every match.

[woody2goody]

Also, I tried to buy a guy called van den Laak (Groningen). He's on approximately 10,000 per week with his club. I offered him 22,000 per week. No go. Other players on 2,000 also said no. There was I thinking players were in some way motivated by money. What player would turn down double salary (especially when he's 27 and offered a 4 year deal) - or even a ten fold increase in his salary? They do it all time time in this gibberish.

Well in this situation, I'm almost 100% sure Groningen are in the Europa League, so it'd be common sense for him to stay with them. I probably would although I'd have to think about it.

And a lot of players turn down massive salary offers from other clubs all the time. It's not a game where you can guarantee signing a player with 'X' amount of money every time.

Not having a go at you here, just trying to offer some help

[graemeS]

OK you read my reasoned criticisms of this game.

And no, it's not my tactics, it's the game itself that's the problem. Good sides don't have to change their tactics for every game. That's a nonsense.

Here is the real killer.

Season 4, finally enjoying it a little bit. Not great but warming mildly to it.

Then come the successive crashes. it's crashed over and over again now and I'm never buying an SI product again.

2008 was appalling. Unplayably bad, training didn't work etc.

2009 was full of bugs and needed matching within 1 week

2010 takes the biscuit.

full of bugs, needed patching within 1 week.

Even with the patch, it crashes repeatedly from season 3 onwards! And it's not just me -- scroll the web and find out lots and lots of people have reported this!

How come the reviews didn't 'pick up' on this issue?

It's hilariously bad -- unless £30 is big money for you, then it's infuriating -- and either way it's insulting.

SI are a bunch of hacks who can't even develop a game that works, let alone one that's good to play.

This game is a rip-off. Don't buy it.

I don't be purchasing any other SI products. The idiots need to apologise.

[shrekiejai]

I agree the crashes is inexcusable and SI deserves all the grief it gets over it.

However, in my opinion, FM2010 is definitely not a rip-off!

It is easily one of the best initial version of the game we've seen in many years.

IF the game wasn't going to be patched, then yes, we might have an issue.

However the fact is you paid money to a developer with a well deserved reputation fixing issues and respecting the customers.

That alone is worth money and should give you confidence that whatever issue that you have, will be resolved to some degree.

As for graemeS issues, my thoughts:

1. Yes, I agree. This "complacency factor" is ridiculous overpowered. But it's not unbeatable, you need to adjust your tactics but that's why I bought this game.

2. Form actually doesn't exist, but morale does. If you keep slamming them after very defeat, you'll start seeing your players playing nervously. That won't win you games.

3. Both actually have impact to the game. I do agree they are still not done very well (Every set of answers being a lengthy version of "Very good, good, average, bad, very bad")

4. Agree to some extent. Regens tend to have much lower initial stats than real-life 17 yr olds, but they do grow up (having said that, there are discussions about the CA weightings for positions)

5. Disagree, this year is the fastest I've seen

6. There are some but most of them can be countered with tactical switches

7. SI absolutely deserves all the grief they get over this. Inexcusable.

8. The game is suppose to be a thinking game. All the great strategy games are hard, that's the whole point. Look in the TT forum.

9. I agree to some extent. Most recomendation by scouts (even the top ones) are not adequate for the club.

10. Disagree. Been playing with Notts Co and I've been given cash every couple of months! I expect that to be similar for Man City.

11. I agree that offering player for free and yet not getting any offer is a problem. My issue for my Man Utd save is how to keep Real Madrid wanting my whole starting 11!

12. Agreed press conference needs to be improved.

While I agree with most of your issues, I don't agree that this game is unplayable. The reverse is true for me, it's been one of the best.

[graemeS]

Shrek, thanks for the reasoned response.

1 we agree. Here's a separate point: even though it's a challenge to beat the ridiculous programming, the programming remains ridiculous and simplistic. The challenge should be about realism, about managing to win the way you want to win using tactics you want to use. Instead, it has become about corcumventing the bizarrely concrete programming such that one has to 'guess what the computer wants' rather than being free to devise your own tactical ideas. This is a step backwards. In football there is no 'right and wrong' way, just different ways of accomplishing the same goals. It is possible to be very attacking and win everything a la Barcelona under Cruyff. The game's arbitrary rules are limiting and frustrating.

2 are you sure form doesn't exist? How do you know? Form does seem to exist, and it is not always related to morale, which can remain very high during bad runs.

3 they may have an impact but they are ludicrous! That was my point. No one disputes it has an impact!

4 we agree

5 you're right re: game processing. It is impressively quick, though i only have 4 divisions in uk and italy running. But the lag on loading up profiles and clicking continue is really annoying at times! I will punch my monitor at some point!

6 yup

7 yup

8 I agree. And you're right - this forum is a real asset to playing the game. However, there are 2 reasons why I think a handbook would be good.

a) for beginners who don't know much about football, to help them understand the basic concepts (or even a website link they can visit that explains it - how difficult would that be to accomplish? I have a website and I'm not a corporation!)

b) some issues should be made clear to us from the beginning - for example, I have discovered through trial and error that SI's simplistic programming means it penalises you if you play attack away from home or counter at home. I know this but it is not true in real life. Both have their advantages and disadvantages but Forest in the 70s showed counter-attacking can work home and away and help you win and barcelona under cruyff demonstrated the same for attacking football. These simplistic rules dictate how we approach the game and if such rules exist, they should be hinted at in a handbook, so we can at least be prepared with SI's notion of 'the rules of the game.'

9 agreed

10 i hope i get some soon! At newcastle, not a penny. The board takeover even planned to sack me but then changed their mind! This guy is worse than Mike Ashley!

11 - 13 - we agree.

cheers.

[Antmanbrooks]

It's your tactics.

- Hahaha, very annoying I'm sure.

[Latimerinho]

How is it possible to go from conceding 6 in 11 games (against better opposition) to conceding 28 in 7? That's right, I conceded 28 goals in 7 games and couldn't win to save my life. It's not my tactics. I repeat, its not my tactics

Afraid to say it, but you have to play a little different depending on the opposition. Your backroom staff will indicate this. What works against one team doesn't mean to say you should expect to win against everyone else. For instance, some teams cannot handle narrow width and therefore if you concentrate your passing through the center you will exploit their weakness. If a team struggle against 4-5-1 formation, then hassle the opponent and retain the ball with passes to feet. Likewise, your team may have a weakness and the opposition may have the player(s) and the formation to beat you.

So unfortunately, your tactics are a little to blame - that's not taking into account player morale or ability either.

[heppionkeppi]

READ THIS!!! If you dont like Press Conferences and Team Talks, you can simply appoint you Assistant Manager to handle them. Problem solved!!

RTFM = Read The F***ing Manual

[BungleFish]

The title of this thread made me think ' To me, To you. To you, To me. To me, To you.'

Yeah i have noticed that if a player is not intrested in joining you on FM10. Then your not going to get him no matter what you offer him. ( unless you win promotion and improve your teams rep)

Unlike on FM09, Where you could manage to tempt some players to join(Who had no intrest of joining) By offering them higher wages than what they were currently getting & give them an high signing on fee/ high bonuses. Just like real life.

Im not sure why they changed this for FM10 ...?

well thats wrong im afraid, ive just brought Macheda and Lansbury for my Clyde team on free's (im about 6-7 seasons in i think), neither of them wanted to come, but i offered them fairly large wages and they are now helping me win the scottish premiership.....

[wwfan]

a) for beginners who don't know much about football, to help them understand the basic concepts (or even a website link they can visit that explains it - how difficult would that be to accomplish? I have a website and I'm not a corporation!)

Like this one?

[PDAquinas]

The title of this thread made me think ' To me, To you. To you, To me. To me, To you.'

Yeah i have noticed that if a player is not intrested in joining you on FM10. Then your not going to get him no matter what you offer him. ( unless you win promotion and improve your teams rep)

Unlike on FM09, Where you could manage to tempt some players to join(Who had no intrest of joining) By offering them higher wages than what they were currently getting & give them an high signing on fee/ high bonuses. Just like real life.

Im not sure why they changed this for FM10 ...?

That's just not right in my experience. I can't comment on fm10 vs previous incarnations but in fm10 I am finding I can tempt a lot of better players with high wages/signing on fee even when they say they are not interested. You aren't going to get an experienced international to drop down the divisions but that seems to have more to do with the club stature than wages. You can get good players to drop down though with a pretty good hit rate if you are prepared to spend.

[solstar]

I like the biography section, I think it adds extra depth to the game. Problem that the OP experiences is due to changes everytime you save a game and quit, it shows the unpredictiveness of the game and personally I think that is a great feature. Its interesting how there is no complain when you win but there is when you lose

As for signing, not everyone is motivated by money, Villa turned down a move to the Premiership, Aguero has just turned down Chelsea due to loyalty to his current club until at least the summer. There are countless examples. Many players value the position of their club, example Champions League football as opposed to relegation battlers or indeed the country they play in. Many players have turned down a move to Russia even though the money is better simply because of the weather. These things are commonplace.

[Tie Fighter]

Afraid to say it, but you have to play a little different depending on the opposition. Your backroom staff will indicate this. What works against one team doesn't mean to say you should expect to win against everyone else. For instance, some teams cannot handle narrow width and therefore if you concentrate your passing through the center you will exploit their weakness. If a team struggle against 4-5-1 formation, then hassle the opponent and retain the ball with passes to feet. Likewise, your team may have a weakness and the opposition may have the player(s) and the formation to beat you.

So unfortunately, your tactics are a little to blame - that's not taking into account player morale or ability either.

I would say that any manager who constantly tinkers with his selection and tactics is likely to be criticised for not giving things a chance to gel. I think you may have overlooked the point I made that I had dominated the games and had more chances - difficult to blame the tactics under those circumstances I would suggest. What tactic defends successfully against long shots? I don't think the outcome of your game should be determined by whether or not you availed of the new backroom advice feature or not.

I have decided to wait (impatiently) for patch 2 and have a final shot at it then.