Tactical Wizard Debate, Do we need it?

[Da_Funk]

Well obviously if they were to remove the sliders completely there would be alot more options available via the wizard style.

Generic answer, what is "a lot more options"? Which options would you have, how will they work?

How anyone can think that the only way we can ever have a good level of control over our tactics is via a slider system is also beyond me.

In fact I'm asking an alternative that none has

The wizard with more options. Bar asking a player to tackle easy when booked, I don't touch the sliders anymore because it's Football Manager, not Slider Manager .

Sorry, again, this is not a description of a tactic system.

Bar? Bar=slider or a tick box?

[paulowen]

Generic answer, what is "a lot more options"? Which options would you have, how will they work?

In fact I'm asking an alternative that none has

Sorry, again, this is not a description of a tactic system.

Bar? Bar=slider or a tick box?

I believe in the player roles option, only there would need to be more player role options available for each position.

[bigdunk]

Unless I've missed a post somewhere, SI haven't said they are going to remove the sliders, they have said that they want to get the wizard up to the level where they *could* remove the sliders and no one would be bothered. Surely that's a perfectly sensible aim?

[Da_Funk]

Unless I've missed a post somewhere, SI haven't said they are going to remove the sliders, they have said that they want to get the wizard up to the level where they *could* remove the sliders and no one would be bothered. Surely that's a perfectly sensible aim?

Right, they want to delete sliders but the Wizard layer has to be on something communicating with the ME then....what's the difference between a ball-winning midfielder and a central midfielder? In terms of gameplay I mean without sliders.

A Target Man and an Advanced Forward? Can you understand now what I mean?

[paulowen]

Right, they want to delete sliders but the Wizard layer has to be on something communicating with the ME then....what's the difference between a ball-winning midfielder and a central midfielder? In terms of gameplay I mean without sliders.

A Target Man and an Advanced Forward? Can you understand now what I mean?

It would give a detailed description of what each role means.

[KingKenny]

Sorry, again, this is not a description of a tactic system.

Bar? Bar=slider or a tick box?

He actually meant "bar" as in "except for".

[bigdunk]

Right, they want to delete sliders but the Wizard layer has to be on something communicating with the ME then....what's the difference between a ball-winning midfielder and a central midfielder? In terms of gameplay I mean without sliders.

A Target Man and an Advanced Forward? Can you understand now what I mean?

They haven't said they want to delete the sliders! They want the wizard to be so good that it's better for every user than the sliders, but that doesn't mean they will take the sliders out. They have the same situation with the 2d, they want it to be better than the commentary, but the commentary is still there if you want it. The same with 3d, they want it to be better than the 2d, but the 2d is still there if you want it.

Odds are, the sliders are so fundamental to the way the match engine works, that taking them out would be a huge undertaking anyway. So if they're there anyway, I can see no reason why SI wouldn't make them accessible to the user.

[Da_Funk]

Odds are, the sliders are so fundamental to the way the match engine works

Thanks for clarifications on "sliders plan".

That's the point

Now any other discussion is on how to improve the new system, which should care everyone.

[paulowen]

I think more of a tick box system would be the way forward over the slider system. For example your giving instructions to your forward. Closing down? using the slider it's quite difficult to set this to how you want particulaly if you haven't studies the match engine thorougly.

Were as in a tick box system there would be options to select for your forwards closing down.

Close down high up pitch

Close down high up pitch and close opposition full backs

Close down only from half way line

Something along the lines of that would enable you to get your instructions accross so much easier.

[Da_Funk]

It would give a detailed description of what each role means.

I think I'm not clear. You take Drogba and put him as Target Man role.

Forget about sliders. Target Man is something already setted from SI, ok, and you understand that? But you can use Drogba or Torres for example as Target Man (in different teams, tactics etc..)and you will not make them do the same things. How, what would you "customize" them without sliders? Referring to sliders terms, you can limit creative freedom or give more of that, you can suggest long shots or prohibit that....you can make play one more with the midfielders and one moving in the area (mentality-run from deep)...but without sliders? Understand now?

[bigdunk]

My only reservations about tick box systems like that, is that you're going to end up with a lot of contradictory checkboxes, some of which could be very subtle, i.e. you could have a close down fullback check box and a stand off players in your own area checkbox, so what happens if both are and a fullback is in your area? Should you not allow both to be checked at the same time? Should they cancel out in this situation? Should one override the other one? (that's probably not a great example, but you get what I mean).

You would also have to have a hell of a lot of checkboxes for each position which would make it difficult for the user to get an overview of that players instructions, e.g. at the moment we can see a players complete instructions on one single screen, with it almost all being graphical (via the sliders at least). If you split that over multiple screens of checkboxes with masses of descriptive text, it becomes a lot more difficult.

[Da_Funk]

I think more of a tick box system would be the way forward over the slider system. For example your giving instructions to your forward. Closing down? using the slider it's quite difficult to set this to how you want particulaly if you haven't studies the match engine thorougly.

Were as in a tick box system there would be options to select for your forwards closing down.

Close down high up pitch

Close down high up pitch and close opposition full backs

Close down only from half way line

Something along the lines of that would enable you to get your instructions accross so much easier.

Ok, we're starting communicatin each other! And you're communicating with me without sliders!!!

well, I've already wrote here that with sliders you have a closing down slider with 20 or similar possibilities. The most difficult thing is to find something that gives you enough possibilities (if I'm right your descriptions give something like 3/4 options for example) but isn't hated as sliders.

[paulowen]

Ok, we're starting communicatin each other! And you're communicating with me without sliders!!!

well, I've already wrote here that with sliders you have a closing down slider with 20 or similar possibilities. The most difficult thing is to find something that gives you enough possibilities (if I'm right your descriptions give something like 3/4 options for example) but isn't hated as sliders.

20 notches on the slider but I wouldn't say that's 20 possibilites as they gradually change from one instruction to another as the notch increases.

The problem with the sliders is trying to translate that into what you actually want that player to do. With tick box options it would be so much easier and would make you feel like your actually communicating and instructing your player exactly how you want him to play.

[Da_Funk]

20 notches on the slider but I wouldn't say that's 20 possibilites as they gradually change from one instruction to another as the notch increases.

It's not exactly as you say. Having "Short Pass" on 2 or 4 is having a player passing differently

The problem with the sliders is trying to translate that into what you actually want that player to do. With tick box options it would be so much easier and would make you feel like your actually communicating and instructing your player exactly how you want him to play.

Yes, I'm trying to involve you in this, what you wrote about tick box is not wrong!

If you have to change long shots or things like that, you have to go to the sliders screen.

With wizard you have only 2 things to define a player: Role & Duty, if you want to do everything else you have to go with sliders.

I think SI here is looking for suggestions on how to improve the interface of wizard for doing things without having to go with sliders (since many users here don't wanna touch sliders...)

[paulowen]

It's not exactly as you say. Having "Short Pass" on 2 or 4 is having a player passing differently

Yes, I'm trying to involve you in this, what you wrote about tick box is not wrong!

If you have to change long shots or things like that, you have to go to the sliders screen.

With wizard you have only 2 things to define a player: Role & Duty, if you want to do everything else you have to go with sliders.

I think SI here is looking for suggestions on how to improve the interface of wizard for doing things without having to go with sliders (since many users here don't wanna touch sliders...)

Tick boxes would be able to replace the sliders so easily and with much more effect and give the user even more options if they choose so.

[Liquid Cool]

I really do not understand why side arrows were taken of the game... I don't seem to remember any kind of exploit related to them (although I admit there might have been), while they were useful in creating realistic tactics. I will give an example of the weird things we have to do control for width right now... If you play with two AMCs, one being a AM CR and the other a AM CL, they will both be very central... now, if you put a third AM C in between them, the outside AM Cs suddenly play closer to the lines... Can you make the two AMCs play closer to the wings if you use only two AM Cs? No!

Yes? Under "Wide player" you have the following options: "Normal", "Cut Inside", "Move Into Channels" and "Hug Touchline". What do you think the two latter ones do?

[SFraser]

Tick boxes would be able to replace the sliders so easily and with much more effect and give the user even more options if they choose so.

You could have a tickbox solution but it come with the severe drawback of having large numbers of tickboxes to go through for each player.

That's the problem with trying to replace the sliders; the sliders allowed a huge variety of behaviours from only a few particular options.

It's not a good solution to try and replicate slider options with individual yes/no choices or into roles/positions because you are eventually going to end up with perhaps hundreds of individual choices that SI will have to define and the user will have to make decisions on.

---------

The "shouts" are the only viable solution to the problem of redesigning the Tactical Interface. You cannot swap the sliders for a list of options because that is completely unworkable but obviously SI cannot simply leave the Tactical Interface as it was in FM09.

The "shouts" are more or less the same basic principle as the sliders, two options for "more" or "less" of a sliding behaviour scale. Some of the "shouts" are nothing more than the sliders themselves, whereas some other "shouts" are combinations of several sliders working with other tactical options and working with your previous Tactical Template choices.

These "shouts" are the only way to go. I don't know how many of you have noticed but some of the "shouts" are identical to the sliders, and some others are "sliders" themselves. You just cannot beat a "more/less" sliding scale for potency and simplicity, for providing huge quantities of choices with minimal clutter and bloated options.

If I understand the recent discussions correctly then people like WWFan are asking for opinions on what is missing from these "shouts" in terms of often used previous gameplay choices. What combinations of Sliders and Tactical Options can be united into "Shouts" that themselves work on a sliding scale, but are much easier to understand and to use.

Unfortunately such questions are hard to answer because even if the issues are laid out clearly, which they are not, there is still the problem of understanding exactly what exists just now inside the Wizard so that people can figure out what is missing.

Failing a direct answer to the question as to how to improve the Wizard, perhaps I could advise a greater degree of clarity from everyone trying to deal with that question on all sides. It is rather difficult to offer means of improving it when all that many people know is that it works at face value.

[lance101]

Yes? Under "Wide player" you have the following options: "Normal", "Cut Inside", "Move Into Channels" and "Hug Touchline". What do you think the two latter ones do?

Clearly you have not actually watched the full matches, otherwise you would realize that even with move into channels or hug touchline choosen, the AMCs in a two AMC formation still stay way more inside than the lateral AMCs in a 3 AMC formation.

[ViG1980]

The tactics are still very much a trial and error platform whether you use the sliders or not as the players don't necessarily behave as you would expect with certain instructions.

[Liquid Cool]

Clearly you have not actually watched the full matches, otherwise you would realize that even with move into channels or hug touchline choosen, the AMCs in a two AMC formation still stay way more inside than the lateral AMCs in a 3 AMC formation.

That makes sense, since there's more room in the middle with only two AMCs. I haven't actually used "hug touchline" for a centre player, as I find it a bit illogical - so I can't comment on how it actually works in the engine. But the setting is there - and if it doesn't work as intended, then it should be fixed, of course.

But if you actually want him to hug the touchline all the time, surely he should be a winger instead?

[paulowen]

You could have a tickbox solution but it come with the severe drawback of having large numbers of tickboxes to go through for each player.

That's the problem with trying to replace the sliders; the sliders allowed a huge variety of behaviours from only a few particular options.

It's not a good solution to try and replicate slider options with individual yes/no choices or into roles/positions because you are eventually going to end up with perhaps hundreds of individual choices that SI will have to define and the user will have to make decisions on.

---------

The "shouts" are the only viable solution to the problem of redesigning the Tactical Interface. You cannot swap the sliders for a list of options because that is completely unworkable but obviously SI cannot simply leave the Tactical Interface as it was in FM09.

The "shouts" are more or less the same basic principle as the sliders, two options for "more" or "less" of a sliding behaviour scale. Some of the "shouts" are nothing more than the sliders themselves, whereas some other "shouts" are combinations of several sliders working with other tactical options and working with your previous Tactical Template choices.

These "shouts" are the only way to go. I don't know how many of you have noticed but some of the "shouts" are identical to the sliders, and some others are "sliders" themselves. You just cannot beat a "more/less" sliding scale for potency and simplicity, for providing huge quantities of choices with minimal clutter and bloated options.

If I understand the recent discussions correctly then people like WWFan are asking for opinions on what is missing from these "shouts" in terms of often used previous gameplay choices. What combinations of Sliders and Tactical Options can be united into "Shouts" that themselves work on a sliding scale, but are much easier to understand and to use.

Unfortunately such questions are hard to answer because even if the issues are laid out clearly, which they are not, there is still the problem of understanding exactly what exists just now inside the Wizard so that people can figure out what is missing.

Failing a direct answer to the question as to how to improve the Wizard, perhaps I could advise a greater degree of clarity from everyone trying to deal with that question on all sides. It is rather difficult to offer means of improving it when all that many people know is that it works at face value.

I don't really see there needing to be hundreds of choices to be honest. Like I've said football IRL is alot more simply than some people think. Yes they will be give certain instructions but the majority of their play depends on the players attributes. Some people on here seem to think it's like controlling robots instructing their every move. Anyone who knows anything about football would know this is nonsense.

An example. Glenn Johnson for Liverpool (Right back) Now he will be given basic instructions to fall in like with the rest of the defence, shape etc. What individual instructions would he be given? Probably to get forward where possible, and overlap Kuyt. The rest of his choices passing, crossing, whether to take people on essentially comes down to his choice at any given time.

I take some of your points as they do make sense but I just don't see how sliders can be the only way forward in terms of pre game basic instructions given to players.

[lance101]

I guess that what I would like would be to be able to have a player consistently looking to receive the ball in the space in between central defenders and full backs (move into channels does not seem to do this in a consistent basis, in my experience), instead of either being very central or very wide. You can make wingers pretty close to that by putting the whole team width on the minimum, but then this affects the width of the central midfielders and the full backs, which you might not want...

[SCIAG]

1: FBs pushing forward mentality wise is a result of the Balanced philosophy in Attacking strategies. IT won't be like that for every philosophy.

2: Closing down can be lowered via the adjustments, and via some shouts. I'd certainly not advise using the highest adjustment in lower league football

3: Tackling has five adjustments, plus some roles that increase or decrease aggression. Although the normal/hard/easy split you are suggesting makes sense, the logic needed to be a little more complex that that to fit all the adjustments in without losing the pattern. The more aggressive the strategy, the more aggressive the tackling.

4: The FB/WB issue is to do with a late change in creator lgic, in which we reduced the FB runs slightly. Narrow formations need the WB settings to provide width. Wider formations can pick and choose depending on the type of players they have.

5: Ask Paul. I assume there's a reason for not having creator settings in classic sliders.

1. Thanks, I'll try "rigid" then.

2. I had been using the adjustments, unfortunately that leads to "hassle opponents" not working. I'm cautious about using "stand off opponents" in case it goes too far. I had it set to "normal".

3. Could you define "aggressive" in the context of strategy, please? Amount of pressing, attacking, fluidity of play?

4. Okay. Would it be worth adding a "wide centre back" role (I'm sure you can think of better terminology) to define the really defensive full back who makes very few forward runs? The likes of Neill, Brown when he was adapting, briefly Carragher for England, Lescott when Everton first put him out there...

[wwfan]

1. Thanks, I'll try "rigid" then.

2. I had been using the adjustments, unfortunately that leads to "hassle opponents" not working. I'm cautious about using "stand off opponents" in case it goes too far. I had it set to "normal".

3. Could you define "aggressive" in the context of strategy, please? Amount of pressing, attacking, fluidity of play?

4. Okay. Would it be worth adding a "wide centre back" role (I'm sure you can think of better terminology) to define the really defensive full back who makes very few forward runs? The likes of Neill, Brown when he was adapting, briefly Carragher for England, Lescott when Everton first put him out there...

2: Hassle Opponents should completely override closing down throughout the team. If you have examples of it not doing so, could you upload the pkm as a bug please. However, if you mean it not working because you've dropped too deep, I would agree it is extremely risky.

3: Strategies have three holding flavours. Attacking and Overload are 'Aggressive', Control, Standard and Counter are 'Balanced', Defensive and Contain are 'Cautious'. However you set your tackling adjustments, your players will tackle more heavily in aggressive flavours and more lightly in cautious ones. However, the Get Stuck In and Stay On Feet shouts override all this settings.

4: We've been talking about that for a while. Unfortunately, it's not that easy to do and will require some ME changes to have it working properly.

[tak]

Brilliant answers from all opponents. I am glad that what I've been shouting for years (from the touchline) is actually now getting mainstream accepted. Sliders is the creation of fools.

As FM moves forward it must concentrate on characters and relationships because those are the things that count.

Could you ever imagine a manager saying: "you're gonna close down to an extend. Bellow normal but not to little. You're gonna close down 8."

Utter nonsense.

I beg the Inquisition not to interfere with my opinion. I am a better customer than them.

I know though, as many many people do, that sliders were a bull manure solution to the manager's role problem.

[DeathSpawn]

i didnt read the previous post but here's my opinion, the wizard seems nice and probably makes things easyer for people who dont have patience to tweek slides but the wizard itself can screw up your tactics.

when i started FM2010 i used the wizard to use a 4-4-2 tactic with arrows on both wingers,on LB and RB and on 1 MC and i though okay this is what i want, while i watching the matches i noticed that both my strikers we're always going too back into the midfield even though i was using offensive mentality and they had low creativity, also noticed my LB and RB didnt attack even though they had offensive mentality too. i tried everything and nothing solved it through wizard so i said to myself "let's try old way" and i was shocked what the wizard had done to my tactic, when i converted to the old tactics system i found out that somehow the wizard had set arrows all over my team, all defenders had back arrows and same on both my strikers...i know english and i know wtf attacking mentality means and low creativity means so i pretty much doubt i had put those arrows...

screw the wizard if you actually wanna win

[Aytumious]

Deathspawn, I just think you don't know how to use the wizard or the tactics creator.

[Tigr]

Speaking of further improving of the tactical side for human (and AI) managers, I think that such small change as a possibility of setting a "starting shouts" will be very helpful. I've noticed that in many games the first thing I'm doing after clicking the "Play" button in the pre-match screens, is pause the game before the kick off occurred and setting a couple of shouts.

[SCIAG]

2: Hassle Opponents should completely override closing down throughout the team. If you have examples of it not doing so, could you upload the pkm as a bug please. However, if you mean it not working because you've dropped too deep, I would agree it is extremely risky.

3: Strategies have three holding flavours. Attacking and Overload are 'Aggressive', Control, Standard and Counter are 'Balanced', Defensive and Contain are 'Cautious'. However you set your tackling adjustments, your players will tackle more heavily in aggressive flavours and more lightly in cautious ones. However, the Get Stuck In and Stay On Feet shouts override all this settings.

4: We've been talking about that for a while. Unfortunately, it's not that easy to do and will require some ME changes to have it working properly.

2. I thought it had been said that shouts didn't over ride your manual adjustments using the sliders?

3. Why? I mean, Hughes' Blackburn were the roughest side I've seen for a long time, but they weren't as attacking as Arsenal, who have little steel. United are probably more attacking than Liverpool, but Liverpool are generally tougher in the tackle and seem to dive in more. Hardness of tackling shouldn't relate to how attacking the side is IMO.

[Stevmon]

Am I supposed to ignore the sliders when using the new wizard? I feel there could be a conflict when using both the wizards and then the sliders.... Have not been getting the results that I should get with Man United after the first two seasons....

[Wayne\'o]

2. I thought it had been said that shouts didn't over ride your manual adjustments using the sliders?

3. Why? I mean, Hughes' Blackburn were the roughest side I've seen for a long time, but they weren't as attacking as Arsenal, who have little steel. United are probably more attacking than Liverpool, but Liverpool are generally tougher in the tackle and seem to dive in more. Hardness of tackling shouldn't relate to how attacking the side is IMO.

a team full of aggresive hard nuts and good tackling stats along with manager instructions to stifle and tackle hard should do just that, it's either a massive bug that yet again many testers seemed to of missed, it's joe public that are the testers and by the time we have all the fixes and patches every one is talking about next years game and it only gives us 10 months to play a game untill we have to part with our cash again..

ronseal does what it says on the tin. FM and tactical setting's dont.. but having said that, if your cunning enough to find a flaw in the ME you can exploit it..

still a very good game tho, just same old faults year in year out.

[wwfan]

2. I thought it had been said that shouts didn't over ride your manual adjustments using the sliders?

3. Why? I mean, Hughes' Blackburn were the roughest side I've seen for a long time, but they weren't as attacking as Arsenal, who have little steel. United are probably more attacking than Liverpool, but Liverpool are generally tougher in the tackle and seem to dive in more. Hardness of tackling shouldn't relate to how attacking the side is IMO.

2: If you have manually set things, then it won't override. However, if you haven't it will override all closing down and marking settings.

3: Again, we are looking at differences between adjustments and overall logic. You can still be more aggressive via the tackling aggression adjustment or the get stuck in shout if you wish to be. However, the abiding logic, which is fully supported by real life stats, is that teams are more aggressive in the tackle higher up the pitch. Forwards, for example, always have the highest foul count, as they can take risks trying to win the ball high up the pitch without the possibly resulting free kick being an immediate threat to goal. If they are skinned, they also have two banks of players between the ball and goal. Teams playing defensively and deep simply can't afford to be aggressive, as it will result in a huge number of dangerous free kicks through fouls or good chances through missed tackles. Hence, defenders can't tackle as aggressively as forwards. Teams playing higher and more aggresively can take more tackling risks.

By linking tackling to positions on the pitch and strategic aggression, similar foul/tackling patterns are produced as in real life. As widely discussed, tackle recognition is bugged, which has skewed this somewhat. What you should see is forwards making a lot of tackle attempts, resulting in more missed tackles and fouls than other positions, MCs and FBs making the most sucessful tackles (3.5-4.5 per game), and central defenders making 2-2.5 per game. Again, this is the base logic, not customised choices, which can still be more or less aggressive depending on the user/AI manager's preferences.

[ensar13]

What I see, is it, that lovesleaper is attacking the diablo people.

Ok, they want theire winning game, and what now? why are you going away from your thread? YOU wanted this discussion about sliders - wizard. So, I see a lot of are attacking me now. That is funny. So, like one said, somebody had to lern me the sliders. Look boy, like I said I HAVE no weeks to learn the stupid sliders to inrepret them in to football game. Man, go out and play football with your guys and began to tell them: look, if you put so much pace, and you so much pass, you as defender, have to tackle so and run this amount of space, I garante you, that it will be your last football match. So, you have lerned this "stupid" sliders, which I didn't understande since 2 years, and now you want to make FM go back to there, where you are the best? Like somebody said, why is SI doing so much job to make you the game better? They should make you a football-chess game, where you put your sliders, the opponent put his, you yours, the opponent answer, and so.... you are asking after a football-chess game

and football IS NOT CHESS!!!! you have no sliders, you have people who you are controling. You are giving them instruction what they has to do. Because, if you put the sliders, than you can use any man in the world and put him there and adjust him with the sliders????? haaaaa???? you really believe that Dany Alves - Rafinha - Oddo - nobody can play the position the same way? You just use the best slider positon for DR and there it is! wooow!

Come on, go and play football in real life. Only then, you will understand the sliders.

And for some one, how asked about the attacking slider beetween 14-16, do you really beleive that this 15 points of attack are soooooooooo important in a match? football has: GK security, defence, middfield, attacking, moral. 5 items, that works together, and you are telling me that if you use the wizard you can not put 15 points of attack, so you are losing your match.... look after the 4 other. in the last 2 FM games, I had to use somebodys tactics, beacuse my tactic are not working, beacause there is a shema whit the sliders that I don't understand. I don't understand that players, who are playing since years and years in Serie A, Ch. Lague, and national team, are not able to play higher tempo and make fast passes (there are making them in the real life), and play slower tempo and put good trough balls. But you inteligent chess gamer know the sliders, you have learned them, and now you don't want the wizard, because it is distroing your ideal! It let normal weekends footballer enjoy theire game, with simple tell-understand method. I don't have to take Alves or Oddo to full back lessons about what he has to do and what not.

And for somebody how told me that football is not saturday to saturday, I respond: go and play in a real club, and you will see, that you have no day to relax. You are a player, but you are a worker, who works from monday until friday, saturday play the match, and sunday is jogging on the row. No, there is more in that 6 days. But it will be a difficult work for SI to make it like in real life. So it is good so too. Just let the wizard, and make a tutorial for newcomer. And please let the sliders, for this chess players, they need there: "I am the best"

[Loversleaper]

What I see, is it, that lovesleaper is attacking the diablo people.

Ok, they want theire winning game, and what now? why are you going away from your thread? YOU wanted this discussion about sliders - wizard. So, I see a lot of are attacking me now. That is funny. So, like one said, somebody had to lern me the sliders. Look boy, like I said I HAVE no weeks to learn the stupid sliders to inrepret them in to football game. Man, go out and play football with your guys and began to tell them: look, if you put so much pace, and you so much pass, you as defender, have to tackle so and run this amount of space, I garante you, that it will be your last football match. So, you have lerned this "stupid" sliders, which I didn't understande since 2 years, and now you want to make FM go back to there, where you are the best? Like somebody said, why is SI doing so much job to make you the game better? They should make you a football-chess game, where you put your sliders, the opponent put his, you yours, the opponent answer, and so.... you are asking after a football-chess game

and football IS NOT CHESS!!!! you have no sliders, you have people who you are controling. You are giving them instruction what they has to do. Because, if you put the sliders, than you can use any man in the world and put him there and adjust him with the sliders????? haaaaa???? you really believe that Dany Alves - Rafinha - Oddo - nobody can play the position the same way? You just use the best slider positon for DR and there it is! wooow!

Come on, go and play football in real life. Only then, you will understand the sliders.

And for some one, how asked about the attacking slider beetween 14-16, do you really beleive that this 15 points of attack are soooooooooo important in a match? football has: GK security, defence, middfield, attacking, moral. 5 items, that works together, and you are telling me that if you use the wizard you can not put 15 points of attack, so you are losing your match.... look after the 4 other. in the last 2 FM games, I had to use somebodys tactics, beacuse my tactic are not working, beacause there is a shema whit the sliders that I don't understand. I don't understand that players, who are playing since years and years in Serie A, Ch. Lague, and national team, are not able to play higher tempo and make fast passes (there are making them in the real life), and play slower tempo and put good trough balls. But you inteligent chess gamer know the sliders, you have learned them, and now you don't want the wizard, because it is distroing your ideal! It let normal weekends footballer enjoy theire game, with simple tell-understand method. I don't have to take Alves or Oddo to full back lessons about what he has to do and what not.

And for somebody how told me that football is not saturday to saturday, I respond: go and play in a real club, and you will see, that you have no day to relax. You are a player, but you are a worker, who works from monday until friday, saturday play the match, and sunday is jogging on the row. No, there is more in that 6 days. But it will be a difficult work for SI to make it like in real life. So it is good so too. Just let the wizard, and make a tutorial for newcomer. And please let the sliders, for this chess players, they need there: "I am the best"

That's allright, ensar13, this is exactly what I've been trying to explain SI all along. I am a little touched that you don't want me to leave the thread-:o- but don't worry pal, I won't leave you.... But, we might be too late, the war is already over and I don't think there is an issue anymore as I am under the impression that the 'Diablo People' have forgiven me. How do you say?...

"Signori, conversatzioni is caputi..."

P.S. Anyone been over in the T&T lately? I am actually starting to agree with KingKenny, it is looking incredibly like it is becoming a smoking area for the 'Diablos'...

[wwfan]

I was expecting T&T to be somewhat like that to start with. Will take a while for people to start discussing things in a different manner. Was exactly the same in FML.

However, this thread suggests things might be beginning to change.

[StevenChap]

The idea is good, but its kinda annoying after a while

[Da_Funk]

I hope I can give a useful boost to the discussion.

I've checked some of the roles differences, here it is if I've wroted down right.

GK/SWGK: Creative Freedom, Through Balls, Cross Ball

WB/FB: Cross Ball (defend), Run From Deep, Through Balls, Cross From (support), Run From Deep, Run With Ball, Through Balls. Cross From

WDMF/WG: Run With Ball, Long Shots, Cross Ball (support), Run With Ball, Wide Play (attack)

DEFWG/WG: Closing Down, Through Ball, Tight Marking, Hold Up Ball (Support), Closing Down, Tackling, Cross From, Tight Marking, Hold Up Ball (Attack)

BOXTOBOX/ADVPLMK: Run From Deep, Through Ball, Roam From Position, Hold Up Ball

WG/INSFW: Long Shots, Cross Ball, Wide Play (Support), Cross Ball, Wide Play (Attack)

DPFW/ADVFW: Run With Ball, Cross From, Roam From Position, Hold Up Ball (Attack, note that ADVFW have just attack)

TRGTMAN/ADVFW: Run With Ball, Through Balls, Cross From, Cross Aim, Wide Play, Roam From Position, Hold Up Ball (attack)

PCHR/ADVFW: Creative Freedom, Long Shots, Through Balls, Roam From Position

CMPLFW/ADVFW: Creative Freedom, Through Balls, Cross Ball, Roam From Position, Hold Up Ball (attack)

It's the comparison between some roles and duties, the instructions written are the only that change

example WB/FB: Cross Ball (defend) means that Cross Ball is the only thing different with defend duty.