Tactical Wizard Debate, Do we need it?

[Loversleaper]

True but just think it's abit over the top at times from certain people.

Yeah, this I agree on. The name calling, the misunderstanding that caused a whole bunch of abuse on the people that have tried to present an alternative view point that actually really needs to be addressed...

It is because it's the same old ploy of leaving gamers in the dark of what actually is going on. Some might enjoy this, others might not...

[tak]

The slider system was the most ridiculous system ever created by man to simulate football. We all know that, there is no question about it. I would like at this point to add, before the fanboy mercenaries attack me, that I am one of the loyal customers of the game, buying it every year and thoroughly enjoying it.

This year I was delighted to see that the slider system was given a good chop and I hope they will get rid of whatever is left of it in the next years. Even remembering that for ages we had to choose between 20 different degrees of closing down, or creative freedom or whatever else, makes me want to find the genius who thought about that and torture him.

The tactics interface is moving in the right direction, so congratulations.

But let me get to the point: Tactics in this game are overated. Football management has to do with tactics of course, but tactics selection is the smalest part of what makes a successful manager successful. More important than tactics selection is character and the material from which the manager is made of.

Character and personality cannot, I'm afraid, be simulated in the FM series.

And that's about it. I believe, I hope, FM will slowly move to that direction and allow managers to make more and more decisions that reveal who they are and, in this way, we will get a game worthy of the title "simulation". Like I said, simplifying the tactics creation is a step to the right direction.

[paulowen]

But let me get to the point: Tactics in this game are overated. Football management has to do with tactics of course, but tactics selection is the smalest part of what makes a successful manager successful. More important than tactics selection is character and the material from which the manager is made of.

QUOTE]

Good post and this point is also something I've been trying to get accross.

[Da_Funk]

The slider system was the most ridiculous system ever created by man to simulate football. We all know that, there is no question about it.

Make a post where you describe how should tactic be and you're welcome.

Tactics in this game are overated. Football management has to do with tactics of course, but tactics selection is the smalest part of what makes a successful manager successful. More important than tactics selection is character and the material from which the manager is made of.

This is a very dangerous path. You'll never have to make the user who manage a weak team feeling powerless

edit: just a reminder Alcorcon-Real Madrid 4-0 ^_^

[Aytumious]

But this is the illusion, my friend. Hasn't anyone seen previously where the SI had pre-set tactics in the game, remember the one where they had an attacking, a normal and a defensive version (complete with settings) of every formation? They all gave ideas on how to make the different frameworks but did anyone learn actually anything at all (except that they didn't work very good)? This is why the wool has been pulled over the eyes of the 'casual gamer' once again...

As you mentioned, those were all horribly flawed tactics that weren't even worth using. The new ones actually work and are easily customizable.

I don't even know what you are arguing at this point. Your posts read like argument for the sake of argument with some ad hominem thrown in to add flavor. Do you have a central point you are trying to make?

[tak]

This is a very dangerous path. You'll never have to make the user who manage a weak team feeling powerless

Sorry, I never said anything like that.

[lance101]

2. What tactical controls are we missing in both the classic system and the new system?

I have already given wwfan feedback on these points, so it's over to you guys...

I've given substantial examples of what (I believe) is missing, without ever getting a comment from SI, that seems more interested in just making blank statements of how the new wizard is more beloved than the sliders.

[paulowen]

2. What tactical controls are we missing in both the classic system and the new system?

I have already given wwfan feedback on these points, so it's over to you guys...

I've given substantial examples of what (I believe) is missing, without ever getting a comment from SI, that seems more interested in just making blank statements of how the new wizard is more beloved than the sliders.

People like you really need to get a life I mean seriously it's a bloody game, you act like your whole life evolves around it. You seriously need to listen to yourself and realise how very sad you must be.

[Loversleaper]

...that seems more interested in just making blank statements of how the new wizard is more beloved than the sliders.

Wrong again. There is a poll going on over in the T&T and the big thing there is: if 'the people' want a Diablo (re: unbeatable tactic)

The Poll results so far:

Yes: 57%

No: 43%

Even Hammer1000 voted NO, believe or not but true none-the-less, so I ask you seriously, what is going on here? As much as SI dressed up the pre-set tactical ploy, as all other attempts previously it has failed miserably. 'The people' don't even want the wizard, so that means Paulowen and 'his people' have just become a part of the Minorty (welcome to the Dark Side, brother-...).

Reflecting on history there was a time where CM had come to the end of it's road. CM wanted to 'keep things as they were', and a new fraction (re: FM) emerged breaking the company in two. The new FM was going to be for the advanced Manager where-as CM stuck with the original idea. Now, what happened afterwards to the big surprise of CM? 'The people' actually went for the dream of being the best manager on the planet on the most advanced game on the market although they always had that other oppertunity of tonning down to the 'Casual' games. But then, what did these 'people' do? They did their best to make the game just as bad as the other games out there and SI finally caved in, so once again we are dawning upon a new time where History repeats itself. FM will have to break appart once more where the new fraction (let's just call it WWFM for a sec as we don't know yet), WWFM (re: World Wide Football Manager) will become the new becon for Gamers that will once more dream of being the best Manager in the world on the most advanced Manager game on the planet. FM will, as CM in it's time, become a 'has been'. WWFM will once again keep people in the dark on an incredible advanced mechanism and somewhere down the line in the next 3-4 years we will again have to look forward to History repeating it all over again. Welcome to the world of Football Manager Simulation...

[Ov Collyer]

I think you need to take some history lessons!

[paulowen]

Loversleaper you seiously need to go an get a hobby or something mate (and not FM).

You have to grasp the fact that not everyone thinks about FM every second of their life and it's flaws like you obviously do.

Fair enough put your point accross but your now trying to force your opinions on the rest and becoming a bit of a know all to be honest.

[Loversleaper]

Loversleaper you seiously need to go an get a hobby or something mate (and not FM).

What, and miss all the fun that we have here? Why should you have all the fun? Not a chance, pal...;)

[wwfan]

I think you need to take some history lessons!

Perhaps Millie can do the teaching.

Two things I think need addressing:

1: The old pre-sets had no influence at all on the creator. The former were 100% static, whereas the creator is 100% dynamic. What the critics fail to mention/understand, is that the wizard is simply step one. From there on in, the system is customizeable and tweakable around your managerial preferences (adjustments), player set (roles/duties) and in match situations (shouts). The old pre-sets had none of that.

2: The important issue of how much control a manager should/should not have is not being adequately discussed. Although lance argued for the return of arrows or wibble/wobble, which I fundamentally disagree with, it should be perfectly possible to discuss what conceptual ideas are missing from the creator and how they could add depth to other elements of the game. It's also important to address the gap between those that believe football is all about player quality, training and luck and those that believe it is a strategic battle on the pitch.

It's obviously a key point of division. On one hand we have a group of people arguing the creator has dumbed things down and cost managerial control, whereas on the other hand we have people complaining that matches are too chess-like and controlled, and that training and player motivation need more focus. Personally, I'm somewhere in the middle. I believe the creator realistically inhibits micro-control, but its concepts should be much better reflected in training and preperation for matches. These could be intresting discussions and certainly more benficial than any black and white attempts to define majorities and minorities.

[Harrison Savannah]

Wrong again. There is a poll going on over in the T&T and the big thing there is: if 'the people' want a Diablo (re: unbeatable tactic)

The Poll results so far:

Yes: 57%

No: 43%

Even Hammer1000 voted NO, believe or not but true none-the-less, so I ask you seriously, what is going on here? As much as SI dressed up the pre-set tactical ploy, as all other attempts previously it has failed miserably. 'The people' don't even want the wizard, so that means Paulowen and 'his people' have just become a part of the Minorty (welcome to the Dark Side, brother-...).

Reflecting on history there was a time where CM had come to the end of it's road. CM wanted to 'keep things as they were', and a new fraction (re: FM) emerged breaking the company in two. The new FM was going to be for the advanced Manager where-as CM stuck with the original idea. Now, what happened afterwards to the big surprise of CM? 'The people' actually went for the dream of being the best manager on the planet on the most advanced game on the market although they always had that other oppertunity of tonning down to the 'Casual' games. But then, what did these 'people' do? They did their best to make the game just as bad as the other games out there and SI finally caved in, so once again we are dawning upon a new time where History repeats itself. FM will have to break appart once more where the new fraction (let's just call it WWFM for a sec as we don't know yet), WWFM (re: World Wide Football Manager) will become the new becon for Gamers that will once more dream of being the best Manager in the world on the most advanced Manager game on the planet. FM will, as CM in it's time, become a 'has been'. WWFM will once again keep people in the dark on an incredible advanced mechanism and somewhere down the line in the next 3-4 years we will again have to look forward to History repeating it all over again. Welcome to the world of Football Manager Simulation...

Utterly bizarre.

I think you need to leave your bedroom once in a while.

[ensar13]

Football is a strategic game, you can have the best team in the world, but it doesn't guarante you to win every match. Barcelona last season was the best team in the world, but when you meet against one of the best strateg in the world (Hiddink) then you will struggle.

I don't know the sliders, but I know the tactic and what I need from the players. I know what a player has to be, but I don't know how to adjust that on the slider. Like I said, I don't have days and days of time like you lovesleaper, to sit in front of my computer and study the sliders, but I know what football is, and how to play it, and how to learn it to play. So, the wizard was perfect for me, beacause it gave me everything I need. I check my opponent, check my players, make the tactic against the opponent, put the players on theire position, give them instruction, and let the game begin. I know what you are trying to say, but I think that is possibile to beat Barca with Chelsea (season 08/09) with the tactical wizard too. Just let the team stop the midfield and play the wings.

But.... I think you want to be the best in this game, because you used all this time and days learning the sliders, so you don't want that somebody else, using the wizard, be as same sacefull like you are. But look, the wizard made the game closer to that gamer who understood the real life football, and how are playing football with friends at weekend.

Or, how would it be, if you let Messi play against the best PES2010 gamer on PlayStation3? I am sure that the gamer would win this match 10:0. But would it be the same on the real pitch?

And yes SRfraser, you are right about the tutorial. I saw it too. There are a lot of new comer, that are complaing about late comeback, opponent striking fast goals, opponent scoring the equaliser in the next 5 minute,... at first you have to know how football works. It is not just to put attacking formation, and here we go!!! You have to know what to do. Against weaker team you can attack, but not against Inter, Man U, Barca,...

and please put your defense. You can't play attacking the whole match. So you are right, SI has to make a tutorial for the new users, to make them lern when should you attack/defend, how to beat the opposition tactically, and the basic staff.

[TriAn]

So to be one of the best strateg in the world in FM it's enough just let the team stop the midfield and play the wings. It sounds... very simple. )

I know what a player has to be, but I don't know how to adjust that on the slider. Like I said, I don't have days and days of time like you lovesleaper, to sit in front of my computer and study the sliders.

Just because no one explained you what sliders really do.

[playmaker]

A yes vote in the 'Diablo poll' can just as easily be interpreted as ambivalence to ANY tactical system. If you are seeking a game breaking tactic, it is hardly a ringing endorsement of either system is it? There is no one-to-one correlation to be made here.

No-one has any need to validate their opinion based on who is in the majority, or who has the best tactical knowledge. At the risk of repeating myself, SI have made it abundantly clear time and time again that the game they make was/is/will be aimed at all ALL FOOTBALL FANS.

Splitting into factions and trying to discredit each other will improve nothing.

[Loversleaper]

Well unfortunately I am in the majority so SI are always going to cater for the majority.

Well since you are now officially part of the 'minority' I just wanted to notify you that the 'Diablo' polls have finally closed:

Yes: 59.37%

No: 40.63%

Looks like we'll be having a Diablo...

[lance101]

I've given substantial examples of what (I believe) is missing, without ever getting a comment from SI, that seems more interested in just making blank statements of how the new wizard is more beloved than the sliders.

People like you really need to get a life I mean seriously it's a bloody game, you act like your whole life evolves around it. You seriously need to listen to yourself and realise how very sad you must be.

I don't see what I have said that merits this kind of harsh response... I simply stated three facts:1 - I've made many comments of things I think that can be improved. 2- SIGames representatives never commented on what I said. 3- Sigames have many times made the generic comment: "people seem to prefer the new wizard. Nice discussion guys, keep going". I don't see anything particularly harsh... Telling me to get a life lol Compare my post count to yours

[lance101]

Perhaps Millie can do the teaching.

2: The important issue of how much control a manager should/should not have is not being adequately discussed. Although lance argued for the return of arrows or wibble/wobble, which I fundamentally disagree with, it should be perfectly possible to discuss what conceptual ideas are missing from the creator and how they could add depth to other elements of the game. It's also important to address the gap between those that believe football is all about player quality, training and luck and those that believe it is a strategic battle on the pitch.

wwfan: I don't necessarily think that wibble/wobble should come back (at least with the level of detail that was present in CM01/02), but I surely believe that we should be able of influencing the positioning of our players in a more straight forward fashion, not through a million sliders!!

Forward/backward arrows are not necessarily something that a manager in real life would use very often, but I don't see any reason (besides weakness of the ME) why they should not be an OPTION (an option that shouldn't necessarily work very well, because players would be dead tired if asked to play for instance M C in defense and F C in attack).

I really do not understand why side arrows were taken of the game... I don't seem to remember any kind of exploit related to them (although I admit there might have been), while they were useful in creating realistic tactics. I will give an example of the weird things we have to do control for width right now... If you play with two AMCs, one being a AM CR and the other a AM CL, they will both be very central... now, if you put a third AM C in between them, the outside AM Cs suddenly play closer to the lines... Can you make the two AMCs play closer to the wings if you use only two AM Cs? No!

I wish this thread was more about what can be made to improve the tactical setup of the game (sliders or wizard) instead of name calling and infinite bickering.

[Svenc]

It's rather early for me to make further suggestions on the tactics creator. Could somebody provide a link to a screenshot of that wibble wobble thingamabob? Sounds fun! Whatever comes next: I think generally if SI continue walking the road they've been walking all along they'll be fine. Which is essentially making a football management game they'd dig to play themselves.

Furthermore I'd like to add that I'm puzzled how some would argue how the depth the tactical tools/UI provide is the only thing that puts Football Manager ahead of its competition. What now follows is me reacting to that, nothing more. If so you wish, you can skip this post. It won't address the tactics side of things in any kind of way. But I still must say that one of the first things that wowed me when I fired up the demo of FM08 was how close the match represenation actually comes to approaching a real football match. Or something that looks, acts and feels like it. All those reviews praising the match engine action are spot on. There isn't a single other football game in the world of commercial video gaming that has ever come this close, be it manager or action game. It's kind of a miracle in itself how SI provides well over an hour of real-time football action - all calculated within seconds.

Then there's the transfer market. I'm not going to call names now but there's competition out there that has zero problems moving the likes of Luca Toni to Bochum or Huntelaar to Bayern for free due to contract clauses that don't even exist in real-life and so on. Also, the database: Yeah, sure size, accuracy, and so on. But what manager game mirrors real clubs up to the point where merchandising contracts between clubs (check RB Salzbug - New York Red Bulls), player restrictions (Bilbao) and feeder club links (Ajax Cape Town) make it into the game? Then there is the clubs' debt, their entire staff, a league's rules and schedules all mirroring real-life, too. Whilst other manager games are struggling to restrict international games and CL games from clashing, if a league's playing its games on Sundays and Wednesdays that league is playing its games on Sundays and Wednesdays in Football Manager too. The only important things missing I can think of now would be licensing rules for each country and league, and maybe tax rates, but that is a bit difficult to implement, I guess.

Still, FM is way ahead of the game in all major areas if you ask me. I could go on, but since I'm not going to further comment on the tacticts creator just yet anymore, there's another one thing you don't need to adress in this thread. It doesn't belong here, so please see it like the random thought that just popped in my head as I went thinking through this. It's how the UI is always meant to look like an office application apparently, rather than something you're meant to have a bit of fun with, too, like a game. I don't mean this as a criticism of a particular skin. They're all set up that way. It's the design approach, not a skin that comes off of it. I know it's a personal thing, and every UI meant to display this much data at once is fighting an uphill battle, but the overall design is rather "dry" in every iteration. But then that probably is like the point. This ain't a game - it's more than that, after all.

[joshpmilton]

Well since you are now officially part of the 'minority' I just wanted to notify you that the 'Diablo' polls have finally closed:

Yes: 59.37%

No: 40.63%

Looks like we'll be having a Diablo...

Rubbish. The "Diablo", like you said earlier is all about getting an unbeatable tactic. To me that suggests 59.37 of those who voted are suggesting that they want a 'win' button, not the removal of the tactics wizard or the sliders.

[Da_Funk]

Forward/backward arrows are not necessarily something that a manager in real life would use very often.

I really do not understand why side arrows were taken of the game.

It's not important if arrows are there or are not there. It's important if arrows are there, what they do, and if they are not there what you can use instead.

You can not understand why side arrows are not in the game but SI can tell you "hey you have the <wide play instructions> that makes that things, does it matter if you have to draw an arrow or tick a box?"

That wizard is nicer than slider is a common agreement.

But nicer doesn't mean deeper or challenging.

3- Sigames have many times made the generic comment: "people seem to prefer the new sliders. Nice discussion guys, keep going"

New Sliders?!??!? maybe "Football Speech"

[paulowen]

I think the key point is. We all want the game to mirror real life, I'm sure everyone agrees on that. However SI I'm sure will still feel they need to keep some form of fun/fantasy element to the game.

Certain people on here almost want it to be exactly like real life.. would we all then need to be qualified coaches just to play the game? There has to be that balance, surely everyone can see that.

It would be like playing Call Of Duty and having to be fully trained in the army such as how ridiculously hard it would be to shoot anyone or stay alive.

I also think back to when I was younger playing the original CM93 I think it was, I was around 10 at the time and had great fun playing this game. Would I the game still appeal to people of that age now? I'm not sure it would, maybe abit more with the new tactic creator.

This is the key point though that however difficult/complex people want the game to be SI are always going to have to find that balance for the wider audience, which essentially keeps their company alive. You cannot just turn round and say well play another game (this irritates people alot).

In a way it's a really difficult challenge for SI. As with any game the developers with each release will strive for more realism and with many games this enhances the enjoyment. However with a football management sim it's going to be difficult for them to find that balance of trying to move the game forward whilst also retaining their huge and and wide range of customers.

It is a game after all, and while most people like a challenge there has to be that fun element retained as we'd all end up grey like Mick McCarthy (Burt off Sesame Street) in no time!

[Mitja]

Perhaps "duped" is a harsh term, but the basic point is that FM is not football, it is an abstraction of football on a computer. This Wizard is essentially an additional programme ontop of the game where a few select individuals have banded together and said "when a user wants to attack, these are the settings that best represent that command".

Had the actual effects of the sliders been better documented and better explained then users would themselves be able to say "when I want to attack this is what produces that intention".

Instead now we have a case where the user selects the command, an additional programme utilising the knowledge of the best FM tacticians decides "this is what he means in slider speak" and the sliders are altered and the effects produced.

but you have to acknowledge that the wizzard has put the AI on more equal ground to human players. while it might have been made to translate our ideas easier into the game, I see the real succes of the wizzard in improving the AI.

I believe that being able to set detailed tactics with sliders, gave human player unfair advatange (or disadvantage) over AI before the wizzard. sliders are perfect tools for a game like FML where humans play against humans, but in FM I think it's very imprtant that AI and humans are pretty much on the same ground.

I agree with you about "this is what he means in slider speak" part. also the wizzard system makes every 'standard' or 'control' tactic pretty much the same or very similar. imo things like tempo, time wasting, creative freedom, closing down are much more related to football tradition than one specific tactic (for example, control tactic in Italy and in England shouldn't be the same). I think sliders did resamble this problem much better than the wizzard, that's a big downside of it. but I'm sure they will try to improve and make the wizzard more diverse and flexible.

[Mitja]

wwfan: I don't necessarily think that wibble/wobble should come back (at least with the level of detail that was present in CM01/02), but I surely believe that we should be able of influencing the positioning of our players in a more straight forward fashion, not through a million sliders!!

Forward/backward arrows are not necessarily something that a manager in real life would use very often, but I don't see any reason (besides weakness of the ME) why they should not be an OPTION (an option that shouldn't necessarily work very well, because players would be dead tired if asked to play for instance M C in defense and F C in attack).

I really do not understand why side arrows were taken of the game... I don't seem to remember any kind of exploit related to them (although I admit there might have been), while they were useful in creating realistic tactics. I will give an example of the weird things we have to do control for width right now... If you play with two AMCs, one being a AM CR and the other a AM CL, they will both be very central... now, if you put a third AM C in between them, the outside AM Cs suddenly play closer to the lines... Can you make the two AMCs play closer to the wings if you use only two AM Cs? No!

I wish this thread was more about what can be made to improve the tactical setup of the game (sliders or wizard) instead of name calling and infinite bickering.

well what you're asking for is already included, it's wide play.the only problem is that it doesn't work really well. so it's a ME issue not a tacical one.

[moneyhero]

i think alot of you are missing the simple whole point.

you all demand realism... sliders are not realistic...simple.

ENSAR i agree completely with what youve said.

since fm07 i havent once used a tactic of my own, because when i do it fails miserably.

not because i know nothing about tactics or football, i have my level 2, and im paid to play on a saturday,

its purely because sliders are not football.

now i can instruct my team to do as i want ive never enjoyed a fm/cm so much.

i actually feel like im instructing my team

fergie, wenger...dont use sliders...no manager in the history of real life football use sliders because they were simply designed to implement tactic instructions in a virtual simulation.

now we finally have a more realistic way of doing this, i.e i want you to hold the ball up top..done.

instead of fiddling with a slider untill u get it right.

THE WIZARD HAS TO STAY........

[Loversleaper]

A yes vote in the 'Diablo poll' can just as easily be interpreted as ambivalence to ANY tactical system. If you are seeking a game breaking tactic, it is hardly a ringing endorsement of either system is it? There is no one-to-one correlation to be made here.

No-one has any need to validate their opinion based on who is in the majority, or who has the best tactical knowledge. At the risk of repeating myself, SI have made it abundantly clear time and time again that the game they make was/is/will be aimed at all ALL FOOTBALL FANS.

Splitting into factions and trying to discredit each other will improve nothing.

I think you are almost talking about the impossible here. It looks like if you get all the "Football Fans" together then amongst them they don't know what they want. Trying to please them all at the same time will only cause that mass confusion that is apparent at this point in time. And all this hog-wash ideology that some people are in the 'majority' and SI having to 'cater needs' and what not, this poll resembles a "wake-up" call that has been comming for a long time. This is why I (and a couple of others) have been shaking our heads lately, there are serious issues here that need to be addressed so in reality it doesn't really matter the discussion here as it seems that people already have made up their minds without even considering what is actually going on around them. SI have to start to think what it is that they 'have' compared to other games that make this game the best one out there...

'The people' don't know what they want, and this time around that is EXACTLY what SI have decided to give them...

[Da_Funk]

you all demand realism... sliders are not realistic...simple.

everytime I read this, none has a constructive comment.

Do you want to discard sliders? Ok, what will you put then?

now i can instruct my team to do as i want ive never enjoyed a fm/cm so much.

i actually feel like im instructing my team

Is it because you can win?

fergie, wenger...dont use sliders...no manager in the history of real life football use sliders because they were simply designed to implement tactic instructions in a virtual simulation.

So they don't give pressing instructions, they don't talk about creative of freedom and so on?

i.e i want you to hold the ball up top..done.

Are you referring to what in the specific?

THE WIZARD HAS TO STAY........

Don't worry it will stay there for a long time

[paulowen]

I think you are almost talking about the impossible here. It looks like if you get all the "Football Fans" together then amongst them they don't know what they want. Trying to please them all at the same time will only cause that mass confusion that is apparent at this point in time. And all this hog-wash ideology that some people are in the illusion that they are in the 'majority' and SI having to 'cater needs' at what not, this poll resembles a "wake-up" call that has been comming for a long time. This is why I (and a couple of others) have been shaking our heads, there are serious issues here that need to be addressed and it doesn't really matter the discussion here as it seems that people already have made up their minds without even considering what is actually going on around them. SI have to start to think what it is that they 'have' compared to other games that make this game the best one out there...

'The people' don't know what they want, and this time around that is EXACTLY what SI have decided to give them...

What the hell has that Diablo poll got to do with people being in the minority or majority. You seriously must be blind or have selective memory if you can't see that the majority of people favour the new tactic wizard over the sliders, just from reading this thread.

Maybe alot of people don't know what they want as they might not spend every second thinking about it like you obiously do. The 'majority' of people buy the game, play it and either like it or don't like it. I actually didn't buy last years version of the game as I wasn't impressed from playing the demo, the first CM/FM I've not bought since the very first version.

It's not up to us to decide how the game is made, they make the game, we play it. Yes I'm sure SI listen and take on board feedback from these forums but untimately they make the decisons that see best for the majority. If you don't like it don't buy it. SIMPLE.

[mightymind]

I am using both as the new tactic wizard is giving you a football language, but when you want to tell to your specific player to attack little more, you don't have any other choice than slider in my opinion ( to tell him to attack from 14 to 16 you can do it only with the sliders. ) How can you do this with the new tactic wizard?

Anybody else is using both system to adjust one specific player ?

Thanks.

[Loversleaper]

Paulowen: You keep on with that annoying 'majority' ploy. The 'majority' wants a diablo, so if the SI are going to do what you are saying/implying then they will have to give it to them. They need a Diablo as much as they need some pre-set tactic ploy (the one that never worked before), I personally think it is time for SI to show who is wearing 'the pants' in the family and stop listening to a group who are under the illusion that they are in the 'majority'. There are other much bigger issues at hand here and if somebody doesn't take it seriously soon then we will still have people running around with this illusion...

[paulowen]

Paulowen: You keep on with that annoying 'majority' ploy. The 'majority' wants a diablo, so if the SI are going to do what you are saying/implying then they will have to give it to them. They need a Diablo as much as they need some pre-set tactic ploy (the one that never worked before), I personally think it is time for SI to show who is wearing 'the pants' in the family and stop listening to a group who are under the illusion that they are in the 'majority'. There are other much bigger issues at hand here and if somebody doesn't take it seriously soon then we will still have people running around with this illusion...

I agree that the diablo request is abit silly, but with the wizard issue IS are going to cater for the majority however silly you think it is, surely you can see that.

I know because god forbid we'd have a game the majority (yes I used that word again) enjoy.

[joshpmilton]

Paulowen: You keep on with that annoying 'majority' ploy. The 'majority' wants a diablo, so if the SI are going to do what you are saying/implying then they will have to give it to them. They need a Diablo as much as they need some pre-set tactic ploy (the one that never worked before), I personally think it is time for SI to show who is wearing 'the pants' in the family and stop listening to a group who are under the illusion that they are in the 'majority'. There are other much bigger issues at hand here and if somebody doesn't take it seriously soon then we will still have people running around with this illusion...

Since when did 187 represent a majority on a forum of 162,050 members? I'd reconsider your side of the debate regarding 'majorities' if I were you.

[Loversleaper]

Since when did 187 represent a majority on a forum of 162,050 members? I'd reconsider your side of the debate regarding 'majorities' if I were you.

Polls have that unique ability to reflect what the general idea/policy is. Now if there were a few people involved then you can't make an assessment, but when you have several hundred voting then the trend will basically prevail. In the mentioned poll the 'tendency' wasn't moving slowly in the *don't want Diablo* trend but the opposite. But this should be commen knowledge, because if there were any such thing as a 'landslide' comeback then there wouldn't be a need for a 'poll' in the first place...

On regards to your statement that just because that roughly 60% wanted to have the Diablo then it wasn't the same as them wanting to remove the wizard and sliders, well how on earth did you come to this conclusion? Isn't it apparent that they want NIETHER?...

[joshpmilton]

But you'd need an accurate cross section of the forum to vote on such a thing for it to be viable survey. As it is only approximately 0.22% of people who are registered on the board even took part in the poll, on a specific board which is directly aimed at people who are struggling with tactics. And even then, of the hundreds that voted, it still stacks up that only 187 from the potential of thousands voted for it. I'm sure if you went on the Good Players Guide and put up a poll asking, "Do you think you should get a Wild Card Transfer" whereby to you can, on a one off basis, sign a single player free of charge that it'd probably get a majority vote. Post a similar poll on here and I'd imagine the results would be very different.

Yes it is apparent they want neither. It's also very apparent they are not interested in tactics at all, which is why the want a "win button" as I said. Which is another reason that poll doesn't stack up in a debate about which tactics system people would like, and which is prefered.

[Loversleaper]

Okay, my dear friend. Let me make this clear why I don't think we are doing a world of good with this discussion, let's take a look at this scenario for a sec:

The Football Manger Simulation world has 3 different 'people'. The Wizard people, the Slider people and the Diablo people. The Wizard people and the Slider people are in the 'minority' and we are fighting amongst ourselves. The Diablo people are in the majority and this has been the problem we all saw comming. They don't want anything that the Wizard or Slider people have to offer as they understand none of it, and who's fault is this in reality? Are the Wizard people really going to blame the Slider people for it? Come on, man, let's bury the hatchet...

[Da_Funk]

The Football Manger Simulation world has 3 different 'people'. The Wizard people, the Slider people and the Diablo people. The Wizard people and the Slider people are in the 'minority' and we are fighting amongst ourselves.

It's 2 then: the one who wants a challenging game and the one wants to click and win.

[joshpmilton]

I don't see that those Wizard or Slider are a minorty. I don't remember seeing a single post in this 437 long thread from anyone demanding a "Diablo" tactic so far?

They way I see the Diablo argument is like discussing whether to put the milk in before or after the water when making coffee. But then in a way to try and settle that someone then points out a poll, conducted by people elsewhere, has been made that some people actually just prefer tea, not interested in how it was made but just like tea. A side note, but not really relevant to the topic in hand. And so I see it with this. Some people prefer the Wizard, others the Sliders. Some want to win at all costs, but don't care how they got there so would rather tactics weren't even a feature.

Sorry for the Ian Holloway esque analogy but I'm sure you get the idea.

[KingKenny]

Well since you are now officially part of the 'minority' I just wanted to notify you that the 'Diablo' polls have finally closed:

Yes: 59.37%

No: 40.63%

Looks like we'll be having a Diablo...

Not only do you need a history lesson (re the split between CM/FM) you also need a stats/research lesson.

As someone who conducts surveys for a living I can tell you that the results of the poll are meaningless, being a self-complete survey which in no way represents the FM playing population.

It's like asking people standing at a smoking shelter their views on the smoking ban and then drawing conclusions about the population as a whole.

Wrong.

[Loversleaper]

So KingKenny: what exactly do you make of all this? What is your personal views and how should we go forward? Let's at least try to show a little progress here...

[KingKenny]

So KingKenny: what exactly do you make of all this? What is your personal views and how should we go forward? Let's at least try to show a little progress here...

Please don't be condascending.

My views were expressed earlier in the thread, and I repeat here for your information.

It seems to me that there are two general schools of thought...

1) A group who think the wizard makes it easy and is for people who don't understand tactics. They get enjoyment out of working out what the sliders mean and how to adjust them to get the team to play the way they want. They seem to think this is the heart of the FM game, a sort of mini game within a game.

2) A group who are pleased that finally they can communicate with the game in football speak. No longer do they have to worry about what a couple of clicks to the left or right actually mean, no longer do they have to work out how to instruct their player to play as a support striker. They feel released from the constraints of the mini game within a game.

I'm firmly in the latter camp, and in response to those who have stated that the wizard means that players don't have to think, you are completely wrong. It's not as if the wizard goves you a perfect tactic for your particular situation. All it has done is enable players to focus on football questions rather gamey questions, e.g....

I'm playing Barcelona next, how do I stop them?

Should I employ a ball-winning midfielder or a deep-lying playmaker and sacrifice ability to win the ball but gain in ability to start attacks?

Should I employ two stopper centrebacks or ask one to play as a ball-playing centre back?

Should I play with traditional wingers aiming balls at a target man or is it better to use wide midfielders who can help out more in defence?

The wizard doesn't answer any of these questions but once you've decided your own answers it then takes out the need to work out how to translate and communicate your decisions to your players.

[Loversleaper]

Please don't be condascending.

I assure you that I was not. It is just that we have a lot of mud throwing and it does not help the problem at hand, and I was just hoping if you did come all the way onto this thread that we start to look forward because as much as we want to 'sweep under the rug' the problems that has brought forward the 'Diablo' people it is still incredibly apparent. They are a result of the lack of knowledge, so they are outside those two schools of thought as they understand none of it.

I mean if the Wizard really had the desired effect then isn't it at least conceivable that it would have been reflected more in this type of 'poll'? How did you ever come up with the T&T is a 'smoking area' for the Diablos? I think we are missing the point in hand and if we don't do something that turns the tides then I can't see this getting any better. I am saying this is a possibility and you are comming accross with the 'survey' ploy is if it isn't?:confused:

Look, let's put a 'poll' up where it can be: The Wizard vrs. The Diablo. You guys know who's got my vote, I'll put on my Wizard hat anyday of the week...

[paulowen]

I assure you that I was not. It is just that we have a lot of mud throwing and it does not help the problem at hand, and I was just hoping if you did come all the way onto this thread that we start to look forward because as much as we want to 'sweep under the rug' the problems that has brought forward the 'Diablo' people it is still incredibly apparent. They are a result of the lack of knowledge, so they are outside those two schools of thought as they understand none of it.

I mean if the Wizard really had the desired effect then isn't it at least conceivable that it would have been reflected more in this type of 'poll'? How did you ever come up with the T&T is a 'smoking area' for the Diablos? I think we are missing the point in hand and if we don't do something that turns the tides then I can't see this getting any better. I am saying this is a possibility and you are comming accross with the 'survey' ploy is if it isn't?:confused:

Look, let's put a 'poll' up where it can be: The Wizard vrs. The Diablo. You guys know who's got my vote, I'll put on my Wizard hat anyday of the week...

Why would it be Wizard vs Diablo? Yes I'm sure there are a small section of all the people that play FM that would like a diablo, but this has nothing to do with how people view the wizard.

You really are grasping at straws and are showing yourself up abit to be honest.

The sooner you accept the fact that most people seem to prefer the wizard the better because whether you like it or not it's the truth.

[Loversleaper]

You really are grasping at straws and are showing yourself up abit to be honest.

Isn't it just as conceivable that we all are grabbing at straws at the moment?...

[KingKenny]

I assure you that I was not. It is just that we have a lot of mud throwing and it does not help the problem at hand, and I was just hoping if you did come all the way onto this thread that we start to look forward because as much as we want to 'sweep under the rug' the problems that has brought forward the 'Diablo' people it is still incrediblt apparent. They are a result of the lack of knowledge, so they are outside those two schools of thought as they undersatnd none of it.

I mean if the Wizard really had the desired effect then isn't it at least conseivable that it would have been reflected more in this type of 'poll'? How did you ever come up with the T&T is a 'smoking area' for the Diablos? I think we are missing the point in hand and if we don't do something that turns the tides then I can't see this getting any better. I am saying this is a possibility and you are comming accross with the 'survey' ploy is if it isn't?:confused:

Look, let's put a 'poll' up where it can be: The Wizard vrs. The Diablo. You guys know who's got my vote, I'll put on my Wizard hat anyday of the week...

You misunderstand my point. You said to someone that they were "offically" in the minority (or majority, I can't remember which). The point I made was that you can't draw any meaningful conclusions about the FM playing population as a whole based on the results of a forum poll. So you can't say someone is "officially" anything based on the poll.

The poll contains several inherent biases.

Forum users are only a small proportion of the FM playing population. This in itself may not be a problem if the typical forum user is very similar to the typical non-forum user, however I would suggest that this is not the case and therefore forum usage is a discrimatory factor. This means that that the sample base of the poll contains a bias (ie is different to the population).

Furthermore I would also suggest that the typical Tactics Thread user is different to the typical non-Tactics thread user. So another discrimatory factor.

Finally, it's a self-complete survey which means you tend to get more responses from people who feel strongly one way or another, and in particular you tend to get more responses from people who hold minority views because they feel more strongly about getting their views across. So another bias there.

Which all leads to the sample base for the poll being completely different to the FM playing population, therefore you cannot draw meaningful conclusions about the FM playing population (which you did when you said someone was "officially" this or that).

If you understand the above, then I'm sure the smoking example I gave will also make sense.

[paulowen]

Why would it be Wizard vs Diablo? Yes I'm sure there are a small section of all the people that play FM that would like a diablo, but this has nothing to do with how people view the wizard.

You really are grasping at straws and are showing yourself up abit to be honest.

The sooner you accept the fact that most people seem to prefer the wizard the better because whether you like it or not it's the truth.

Isn't it just as conceivable that we all are grabbing at straws at the moment?...

Not really, we all have our opinion as do you. But you just can't seem to accept that most people seem to prefer using the new wizard and you seem determinded on proving otherwise.

[Loversleaper]

If you understand the above, then I'm sure the smoking example I gave will also make sense.

Well, I have to beg to differ. I am just a small fraction of the people over in the T&T that make tactic threads, and I have far from some of the really big threads that are in there. We have had countless discussions with people about this and that regarding tactics and the general feeling was that people were there to learn and ask questions. There have been only a few of those type of threads (diablo pleas) and they were never really taken seriously. My tactics I put up for download (with very good feedback) has been used by many and none of them were anything close to resembling a *Diablo* tactic. That's why the poll was a little shocking, it seemed over the hood in the T&T that most gamers were there to learn tactics but underneath it turned out (again) to be the opposite. If that doesn't at least raise a small question then you are right, I am wasting my time...

I mean look around, do you actually think that things are better? If they were we wouldn't even be having this conversation would we? The SI gods would have closed this thread shunning as being non-existent, but the reality is that we need to step forward. That is what this is all about...

[KingKenny]

Well, I have to beg to differ. I am just a small fraction of the people over in the T&T that make tactic threads, and I have far from some of the really big threads that are in there. We have had countless discussions with people about this and that regarding tactics and the general feeling was that people were there to learn and ask questions. There have been only a few of those type of threads (diablo pleas) and they were never really taken seriously. My tactics I put up for download has been used by many and none of them were anything close to resembling a *Diablo* tactic. That's why the poll was a little shocking, it seemed over the hood in the T&T that most gamers were there to learn tactics but underneath it turned out (again) to be the opposite. If that doesn't at least raise a small question then you are right, I am wasting my time...

I mean look around, do you actually think that things are better? If they were we wouldn't even be having this conversation would we? The SI gods would have closed this thread shunning as being non-existent, but the reality is that we need to step forward. That is what this is all about...

You STILL don't understand my point. So let me put it into one sentence:

You cannot draw a meaningful conclusion from the poll you quoted.

That, my friend, is a fact.

[paulowen]

We only have this thread because of the odd person such as Loversleaper who clearly has no life prefers the sliders over the new wizard. Nearly everybody can see the benefits of the wizard over the sliders (aka geek version)