Tactics Creator - A Delusion of Presentation ?

[GRE23]

For the nth time in this thread, for dear contributors looking to play a part in the discussion:

I am, as you all are, aware that there is something new. New choices, new interface, new labels. However I'm inquiring the actual content. I could never achieve what I had in mind before and that made me worry about how tactical system worked. Yeah. It's now something new, but how effective is it ?

Same chips in new package ?

For the nth+1 time: We all know there is something new in the game. I'm asking about the practicality of it.

download the demo and give it a try. Trust me, the new tactics creator + the touchline shouts will make you feel you are actually coaching a football team. I have (not professionally unfortunately) and I was amazed.

You will also find that with simple changes of instructions your team behaves completely differently. Example: when I was one goal up and wanted to switch from attacking to control, I had to load another tactic or tweak the existing one which took me a quite long time. Now it is like you change role to 3 players and switch instructions to control - retain possession.

And they actually control and retain possession. I hope thsi helped a while

[I\'m Brian (and so is my w]

You shouldn't need any kind of experimentation to figure out the exact effect of a slider on a match engine though. That is just nonsense people appear to put up with becasue the rest of the game rocks your socks this much - not ruling out someone who likes to engage in this kind of challenge though. It's like Civilization shipping without a single tool-tip or manual that actually explains the most basic rules and mechanics of the game, merely hinting at possible outcomes of pushing certain buttons, and you're left to figure out how to found cities and to build units yourself. That isn't experimentation. Experimentation means I'm being explained a game's mechanics - it's the very foundation that allows me to start experiments in the first place. FM is, bluntly put, guesswork. Out of the box and shipping with an official documentation like this anyway.

I'm afraid I don't agree with you.

Football is guesswork. Real life I mean. So why would FM have to be any different?

What SI is trying to do with FM is converting a dynamical system in which variations in thousands of parameters create variations in other parameters which eventually will lead to an outcome(the game we all love: football) into a binary process in which a limited set of variations are hardcoded (the game we all love: Football manager).

In real life tactics, the manager will have a game plan based on his assesment of the variables he conideres relevant.

For example: 1 manager could be assessing his left winger as being his key man and design his tactics around that player. He'll try to get the most out of the player and his team by working out a system of play that maximizes (in his view) his chances of winning the game.

But another manager could be looking into the strenghts of the other team and trying to nullify them by threat analysis and containment.

Both managers will have to 'experiment' with their approach during the match to see how his plan works out.

There's no way to "calculate" the result of a football match based on the initial parameters at hand.

There are too many variables and there's to much variation of the parameters involved.

What if the keeper went out for some tequilla the night before?

What if the referee makes a blunder?

What if the central back gets a red card because he's furious with that referee?

I don't know if you know the butterfly effect in chaos theory?

It describes how even the smallest variation in the tiniest parameter can cause a huge variation of another parameter in certain systems. This is what football (and sports in general) is all about; the probability that Dover could beat Man Utd. And there is no magical formula that the the Dover manager could use in order to beat them.

Back to FM and the tactics creator as put forward in FM10:

In principle the ME could be open-sourced and each slider could be explained in terms of coding.

"If you put slider X on Y and Slider Z on P etc then result R will be calculated.

I don't know the inner working of the ME, but only a limited (not small, just limited) number of variables can be involved. So in theory Si could give us a formula to "calculate" the result of a match with certain slider settings.

Question now is: do we want this?

I vote no.

It's better to let the player experiment and get a feeling for the ME. This experience will be mimicking real world football (as explained; real managers can only see the effect of their tactical plans by watching the match.)

Now what was lacking in FM09 is the link between the experience gained by the player and the possibility to implement that experience through the sliders.

It's all very well to see that you are struggling against teams pressing very high on the pitch if you have short passing.

"I need more space to be creative in and that ball has to get in that box muck quicker"

But with the sliders what would you do? Put the passing slider on 12? Or 15? Or would you try to get wider and create space on your right flank? Would you put the slider of Width on 12? or 18? Or Should I do both?

The problem was; you had to translate football to sliderish.

Now we can experiment with the instructions. No translation needed...

Doesn't mean that we need a full explantion of said instructions into sliderish, imo.

All we need now is a very good description of every instruction.

And then we can start experimenting with them.

It will never be possible for the ME and the tactical creator to imitate real life tactics 100%

But this new system is one HUGE step forward compared to the previous system.

[gunner86]

It's not cheating at all. Do you think when managers are going through the tactics with their team they have a load of sliders on the wall and say "right then lads, let's for for x attacking, y passing, z pressing" and then point to where on a scale they want it? No. Thay say" OK chaps, I'm looking for a very fluid set up, I want to see you playing really neat, short passes. Control the game, keep possesion and we'll look to exploit the cracks." It adds a layer of realism to the game. Games should be fun - not scientific. Don't get me wrong, I've spent hours on FM games tweaking the little sliders, but I much prefer the new way it's presented.

[Svenc]

I

Football is guesswork. Real life I mean. So why would FM have to be any different?

The problem was; you had to translate football to sliderish.

That isn't a problem' date=' that is a challenge, and requires experimentation. It's cool that the new tactics wizard makes this easier for those who want to. But the problem remained (and still remains) this:

"gradually adjusting this lets your players do the more ambitious stuff." Like what? Backheel flicks? Tempo dribblings past the last line of defense? Difficult through balls? Bits of free roaming action? Trying to communicate hundreds of thousands of players the effects of a tick box?

I'm not making this up, that's how the "creativity" slider is being explained right in the game's manual. And I still don't see how that's being solved - and it has to, given that even tactical wizard users want to tweak their sliders every once in a while. Experiment and stuff. Well, maybe.

I don't know the inner working of the ME, but only a limited (not small, just limited) number of variables can be involved. So in theory Si could give us a formula to "calculate" the result of a match with certain slider settings.

Question now is: do we want this?

You don't have to give away the entire inner workings of a game when trying to explain the most basic of mechanics, you got me wron there. Knowing what the sliders actually really do - that is a very basic mechanic. Obviously the effect will differ from player to player and team to team. But a basic knowledge of the fundamentals are the foundation for experimentation at all. The sliders are supposed to be there so that you can control a player's positioning, his playing style and the like. Which you can only do if you get to wrap your head around those sliders. See that Pro EVO 2010 sliders trailer, and how beautifully this can be demonstrated on the fly, even in notches of 99, not merely 20. What then actually happens on the pitch, is still random, just like in football.

What you suggest is that there isn't really any kind of simulation of a footie match going on, now matter how basic, meaning that adjusting the sliders are merely cosmetics to a certain degree or an illusion of choice and depth that isn't fully there. So that there is a secret "slider formula to victory" that can be given away easily. For a while I wondered myself if the documentation was this vague for a reason, actually. But if that were the case, and all the complexity of the game was coming from keeping it all vague, that'd be a shocker. And I refuse to believe that.

[gunner86]

I'm afraid I don't agree with you.

Football is guesswork. Real life I mean. So why would FM have to be any different?

What SI is trying to do with FM is converting a dynamical system in which variations in thousands of parameters create variations in other parameters which eventually will lead to an outcome(the game we all love: football) into a binary process in which a limited set of variations are hardcoded (the game we all love: Football manager).

In real life tactics' date=' the manager will have a game plan based on his assesment of the variables he conideres relevant.

For example: 1 manager could be assessing his left winger as being his key man and design his tactics around that player. He'll try to get the most out of the player and his team by working out a system of play that maximizes (in his view) his chances of winning the game.

But another manager could be looking into the strenghts of the other team and trying to nullify them by threat analysis and containment.

Both managers will have to 'experiment' with their approach during the match to see how his plan works out.

There's no way to "calculate" the result of a football match based on the initial parameters at hand.

There are too many variables and there's to much variation of the parameters involved.

What if the keeper went out for some tequilla the night before?

What if the referee makes a blunder?

What if the central back gets a red card because he's furious with that referee?

I don't know if you know the butterfly effect in chaos theory?

It describes how even the smallest variation in the tiniest parameter can cause a huge variation of another parameter in certain systems. This is what football (and sports in general) is all about; the probability that Dover [i']could[/i] beat Man Utd. And there is no magical formula that the the Dover manager could use in order to beat them.

Back to FM and the tactics creator as put forward in FM10:

In principle the ME could be open-sourced and each slider could be explained in terms of coding.

"If you put slider X on Y and Slider Z on P etc then result R will be calculated.

I don't know the inner working of the ME, but only a limited (not small, just limited) number of variables can be involved. So in theory Si could give us a formula to "calculate" the result of a match with certain slider settings.

Question now is: do we want this?

I vote no.

It's better to let the player experiment and get a feeling for the ME. This experience will be mimicking real world football (as explained; real managers can only see the effect of their tactical plans by watching the match.)

Now what was lacking in FM09 is the link between the experience gained by the player and the possibility to implement that experience through the sliders.

It's all very well to see that you are struggling against teams pressing very high on the pitch if you have short passing.

"I need more space to be creative in and that ball has to get in that box muck quicker"

But with the sliders what would you do? Put the passing slider on 12? Or 15? Or would you try to get wider and create space on your right flank? Would you put the slider of Width on 12? or 18? Or Should I do both?

The problem was; you had to translate football to sliderish.

Now we can experiment with the instructions. No translation needed...

Doesn't mean that we need a full explantion of said instructions into sliderish, imo.

All we need now is a very good description of every instruction.

And then we can start experimenting with them.

It will never be possible for the ME and the tactical creator to imitate real life tactics 100%

But this new system is one HUGE step forward compared to the previous system.

Fantastic, you Sir have hit the nail right on the head with that!!! Top bombing

[I\'m Brian (and so is my w]

That isn't a problem, that is a challenge, and requires experimentation. The problem remained (and still remains) this:

Well it was a challenging problem

What I was trying to say was:

I loved tweaking the sliders but sometimes it was hard translating my football ideas into sliders.

The new system basically is my translator.

I analyse the tactical problem, look at the instructions and experiment.

I'm not making this up, that's how the "creativity" slider is being explained right in the game's manual. And I still don't see how that's being solved - and it has to, given that even tactical wizard users want to tweak their sliders every once in a while. Well, maybe.

Well, you'll have to experiment to find out...

Again; you are asking for more information then you would like; If they would explain the slider on 2 pages wouldn't that possibly make it more "gamish"? How would you define "creativity" in real world football?

I think it's best to use that definition as a starting point for the slider.

[samuelburrowsuk]

This has turned into a very interesting thread, despite the slightly bizarre beginning!

[Svenc]

Well it was a challenging problem

Again; you are asking for more information then you would like; If they would explain the slider on 2 pages wouldn't that possibly make it more "gamish"? How would you define "creativity" in real world football?

I think it's best to use that definition as a starting point for the slider.

A slider is defined exactly as SI wants it to be defined' date=' no matter what name it is carrying. As you can see, "creativity" could mean anything, according to the manual. In fact, there are bits in the manual that guides on fan sites would gladly contradict. It's maddening. Every slider has an effect on the players and the engine, and this being a game, if it isn't explained what it's doing to the match engine it's either guesswork or useless or both. I refuse to believe that this kind of guesswork is what is making FM a challenge at all.

I loved tweaking the sliders but sometimes it was hard translating my football ideas into sliders.

The new system basically is my translator.

I can dearly relate to this, and I edited my post, sorry.

[themoffster]

I was very, very much against is as i expected it was a way to 'trick' people into this "new" feature, when infact all it did was add a layer of abstraction onto the already existing functionality.

However, after using it I take it all back - it's great.

I thought i knew sliders, but I know player types and styles a lot more. Using descriptions of players to set the sliders for you is the work of genius. I hated the idea at first, but the way it has been implemented i doff my cap.

[I\'m Brian (and so is my w]

A slider is defined exactly as SI wants it to be defined, no matter what name it is carrying. As you can see, "creativity" could mean anything, according to the manual. In fact, there are bits in the manual that guides on fan sites would gladly contradict. It's maddening. Every slider has an effect on the players and the engine, and this being a game, if it isn't explained what it's doing to the match engine it's either guesswork or useless or both. I refuse to believe that this kind of guesswork is what is making FM a challenge at all.

Again; you cannot give me a definition of "creativity in football" as applicable in the real world.

And you certainly cannot give me a real life definition of "creativity in football" that would be accepted by Wenger, Ancelotti, Hiddinck, Advocaat, Cruijff, Maradonna etc.

Maybe Advocaat would define it:

"The amount of tactical liberity I want give to defining players"

But then Maradonna could cay:

"Not at all Dick, it's all about heel flicks, retros and attractive football"

Cruijff would probably tell you that creativity is indefiniable

So if SI is going to try to simulate a football match they shouldn't be giving an all inclusive definition of "creativity".

The reason, imo, they keep it vague is because of the vagueness in real life.

Again: Football is guesswork. Educated guesswork, but still guesswork. Gueswork that can be analysed postmatch to gain experience.

I'm sure that 2 managers will opt for the offside trap in totally different situations.

Who would be right?

They'll have to experiment.

In FM09 you would have to experiment with the sliders.

What you want is a definitive answer to the questions

"I I put slider X on Y then Z"

"Slider X = <insert formula>"

That's not what football is all about.

And that's why SI are keeping it vague (imo).

[Svenc]

Again; you cannot give me a definition of "creativity in football" as applicable in the real world.

And you certainly cannot give me a real life definition of "creativity in football" that would be accepted by Wenger' date=' Ancelotti, Hiddinck, Advocaat, Cruijff, Maradonna etc.

Maybe Advocaat would define it:

"The amount of tactical liberity I want give to defining players"

But then Maradonna could cay:

"Not at all Dick, it's all about heel flicks, retro's and attractive football"

Cruijff would probably tell you that creativity is indefiniable

So if SI is going to try to simulate a football match that shouldn't be giving an all inclusive definition a "creativity".

The reason, imo, they keep it vague is because of the vagueness in real life.

[/quote']

It doesn't matter how people define "creativity". SI have a slider called "creativity" in their football game, which is a means to guide your players, and that is all that matters.

Again: Football is guesswork. Educated guesswork, but still guesswork. Gueswork that can be analysed postmatch to gain experience.

I'm sure that 2 managers will opt for the offside trap in totally different situations.

Who would be right?

They'll have to experiment.

In FM09 you would have to experiment with the sliders.

If you start out, in FM you're not experimenting with the sliders - you might very well struggling to cope with their basic meaning at all. You simply cannot experiment if you don't know how these means of control affect your players. Seeing how happy you are with the tactics creator, it seemed you were struggling with the meaning of the sliders yourself. What I'm advocating is that you, yes YOU should be able to tell a player what to do, to assign him a half-way decent role yourself. And that's basically it in a nutshell. The game remains football, analyzing remains a necessity - just because you can now better tell a player what to do yourself doesn't take the randomness out of the game. And all of your decisions might go nowhere, they might well be entirelly crap, as you don't understand football tactics at all - but I'm still advocating that you can make all of those yourself.

What you want is a definitive answer to the questions

"I I put slider X on Y then Z"

"Slider X = <insert formula>"

That's not what football is all about.

Well, it isn't about picking pre-defined tactic wizard settings either, no matter what real-life football labels they're carrying around. The thing I'm advocating is exactly what can be seen in

. Yes, that indeed means that one should have an idea what actually might happen if one puts slider X to Z, well perhaps not exactly like that - with notches from 1-20 there is obviously room for experimenation. But to know what effect adjusting a slider has is of paramount importance - otherwise one could well just pick up the latest edition of Slider Guesswork Manager Twenty-Eleven. It doesn't matter in what shape, size or form this is being communiated, but it should be obvious that basic mechanics and controls need be communicated before you can start to, well, play. Experiment. Do the good stuff.

[gunner86]

Do you think when a manager sits down with a player he goes through every part of the game individually? I'd think he's more likely to say "Ok X, I want you to be our deep lying playmaker". Rather than going "On a scale of 1 to 10 for passing directness I'd like you to play as a 8". Footballers by-en-large know what each role will entail. So why should you need to sit there for an hour minutely adjusting sliders when you can just say - deep lying playmaker please - and then make small adjustments to that during the course of the game, season or career as you see fit.

[Svenc]

Do you think when a manager sits down with a player he goes through every part of the game individually? I'd think he's more likely to say "Ok X, I want you to be our deep lying playmaker". Rather than going "On a scale of 1 to 10 for passing directness I'd like you to play as a 8". Footballers by-en-large know what each role will entail. So why should you need to sit there for an hour minutely adjusting sliders when you can just say - deep lying playmaker please - and then make small adjustments to that during the course of the game, season or career as you see fit.

How are you supposed to do this when the most immediate means of communication between him and you, which still remain the sliders, aren't covered?

[gunner86]

They are covered in the individual player instructions.

[I\'m Brian (and so is my w]

If you start out, in FM you're not experimenting with the sliders - you might very well struggling to cope with their basic meaning at all. You simply cannot experiment if you don't know how these means of control affect your players. Analyzing a game is something else, that is where the challenge is supposed to come from - not how to give players their instructions. Seeing how happy you are with the tactics creator, it seemed you were struggling with the meaning of the sliders yourself.

Not with their meaning (I could be defining them in another way as you, but that's how football works).

I was having troubles translating my ideas to sliders. Because it takes some time to adjust 7 sliders just for 1 football concept.

Width: I perfectly understand the meaning of the slider.

But where do I put the slider to have it 'right' for my idea of playing?

I had to experiment...and I was ok with that.

But now I just choose 'Hug the line'

Which makes me feel I'm more playing with football players iso sliders.

What I'm advocating is that you, yes YOU should be able to tell a player what to do, to assign him a half-way decent role yourself. And that's basically it in a nutshell. The game remains football, analyzing remains a necessity - just because you can now better tell a player what to do yourself doesn't take the randomness out of the game. And all of your decisions might go nowhere, they might well be entirelly crap, as you don't understand football tactics at all - but I'm still advocating that you can make all of those yourself.

I'm not sure I understand you 100% because that's still possible in FM10

Randomness is necessary; it's a football simulation it's not physics

Well, it isn't about picking pre-defined tactic wizard settings either, no matter what real-life football labels they're carrying around. The thing I'm advocating is exactly what can be seen in

. Yes, that indeed means that one should have an idea what actually might happen if one puts slider X to Z - otherwise one could well just pick up the latest edition of Slider Guesswork Manager Twenty-Eleven. It doesn't matter in what shape, size or form this is being communiated, but it should be obvious that basic mechanics and controls need be communicated before you can start to, well, play. Experiment. Do the good stuff.

.

I'm at work and can't see that movie at the moment.

I'll have a look asap.

PS: nice discussion

and why isn't that

thingie working

[Loversleaper]

Do you think when a manager sits down with a player he goes through every part of the game individually? I'd think he's more likely to say "Ok X, I want you to be our deep lying playmaker". Rather than going "On a scale of 1 to 10 for passing directness I'd like you to play as a 8". Footballers by-en-large know what each role will entail. So why should you need to sit there for an hour minutely adjusting sliders when you can just say - deep lying playmaker please - and then make small adjustments to that during the course of the game, season or career as you see fit.

You have to realise that the numbers repesents a procentage system. It is not because I personally think it is the best solution but how else are you going to translate instructions into a mechanism that has a calculating aspect (and procentages of the success of them)? It has also been a total mis-guided ideology that the sliders have to be 7 and not 8 to make something work and the myth that Gamers have to have the exact right combinations to make a tactic work, it simply is not true. You need to find out which directions slider have to move to make the offensive/defensive 'values' that actually make up the whole Match Engine, football is attacking or defending it is simple as that. Once you know which direction you have to move the slider to 'trigger' the offensive or defensive mechanism, it becomes much easier to know how much procentage of this 'mechanism' you need to implement. The whole slider thing has been misunderstood for years, but I am not suggesting it is Gamers' fault, but due to the inability for people (and Game Makers) to describe it...

[Proteus]

It's intuitive, it gets you to build a tactic in football terms, not slider terms. That's surely exactly what FM needed? Once you use it will will understand

That's an excellent way of putting it. I often felt overwhelmed by the tactical system in previous iterations of FM, but the Tactics Creator is excellent as it is allowing me to transmit ideas in my mind to the manner in which my teams play on the pitch in the game itself.

I find it amazing that I am, for the first time in my FM-playing life, able to convey my visions of how I see my team playing in my mind to the Match Engine such that individual players in my team will play how I want them to play.

I'm very excited about the release of the full-game. For the first time I feel that I will be able to play the game without resorting to using a tactic created by some tactics wonk who understands the relationship between the deep programming and the slider system.

FM 10 will be my game. My tactics, my team, my game.

[Svenc]

They are covered in the individual player instructions.

Talking about the effects of each. Not the sliders themselves, naturally.

It has also been a total mis-guided ideology that the sliders have to be 7 and not 8 to make something work and the myth that Gamers have to have the exact right combinations to make a tactic work, it simply is not true.

My impressions too. I never worried about the exact notches, after all this is a slider, going from 1 to 20. It's like a heating regulator that gradually lets me increase or decrease whatever, is all.

[gunner86]

I think what it boils down to, is that the creator gives you a vision of what the sliders do. There is still the option for you to use the sliders under the classic mode of tactics. There is obviously two schools of thought as to which is better and that is purely opinion based.

[michelco]

IMO there is some roles missing. Example, Striker-winger that is so important in todays game IRL. How would you go about setting up a striker-winger?

[gunner86]

IMO there is some roles missing. Example, Striker-winger that is so important in todays game IRL. How would you go about setting up a striker-winger?

I believe that is covered under inside forward... It's very similar at least.

[crouchaldinho]

IMO there is some roles missing. Example, Striker-winger that is so important in todays game IRL. How would you go about setting up a striker-winger?

What kind of wing-forward do you want to set up?

I say, just use the winger option or the inside forward option depending on how you want him to act.

[gunner86]

Essentially Inside forward will cut inside and shoot whereas winget goes outside and crosses (if I'm understanding this right) So on the left wing for example a right footed player (Arshavin maybe) would be an inside forward so he comes inside onto his stronger right foot, whereas a left footed player (Vela) goes outside and crosses on his stronger foot.

[michelco]

but a winger-striker go into the box and he wont cross the ball. i've tried the inside forward with the move into channels wide play option but it just doesnt get the winger to make runs into the box.

[Svenc]

If you start out' date=' in FM you're not experimenting with the sliders - you might very well struggling to cope with their basic meaning I'm at work and can't see that movie at the moment.

I'll have a look asap.

[/quote']

Liked this? Perhaps the effects of some of SI's sliders cannot be demonstrated that simply - SI's sliders are arguably overly ambitious themselves in parts. For instance, there is one slider, the mentality one, that isn't just meant to control the positioning of a player, but his overall playing mentality, which probably would prove a challenge even for the guy's at Konami to communicate that nicely to the player.

But still, this is awesome, and it's put like that into the game itself as shown - with the dots on the pitch roughly demonstrating a team's and a player's expected behavior later on the pitch as you gradually adjust the corresponding slider. If it wasn't there you weren't able to create any kind of tactics without resorting to a guide, a forum or a manual. And even then, it follows the most basic rule of communicating rather complicated issues, which is: show, don't tell. Superb.

It's not about communicating what would exactly happen if you put slider A to x, B to y or C to z - I fail to see how that'd be possible, considering the many random factors put into the sim, a player's attributes and so on. But it's about better communicating what a slider really is meant to control at all. And the tick boxes, of course. Just giving those real-world football names a la "passing style", "mentality" or "counter attack" and explainingt them like that in the manual won't surfice, arguably not even for the ones that sound as if they explain themselves - upon seeing something like a "passing" slider you might still be left wondering if this triggers a player's preferred passing style, or whether it gradually increases or decreases his passing range without setting a preference in style at all. You might later be wondering if putting it to short would restrict a player to look for direct/long options full stop, particularly if you're trying to set up some kind of close-shoppe, counter attarck kind of tactics. Long story cut short, such things need be communicated, particularly to newcomers, rather than boiling down to guesswork and experiments. This is a game, after all. And these are your means of control still being a major part of the game, pre-defined one-size-fits-all options masking them or no.

(Btw, I think you just didn't close your quote-tags, is all. )

[Svenc]

I just noticed that if you set up your team playing an "attacking" style of football with the tactics creator, the counter-attack tix box is ticked. How would you explain this to someone coming off the game's manual trying to further tweak their tactics? After all, according to the manual this tick box triggers a side "to sit back" and wait for opportunity to arrive. If one were to set up an attacking side surely the last thing one wanted to do is to tell their side to "sit back".

As said, workaround, ease of use too, core issues remain.

[crouchaldinho]

Svenc - I believe things like counter-attack will actually be redefined in the new manual.

Essentially, my understanding of counter-attack is that it doesn't actually work as suggested in the manual. Counter-attack in FM basically means that, in a certain situation when a counter-attack seems viable (i.e. opposition have committed players forward leaving space to exploit), your players will effectively move up to a high mentality with high forward runs in order to exploit the space available for the duration of that particular move. To summarise, if the opposing team is short at the back, the whole team will go into counter-attack mode. However, if they are not short, the mode will not initialise.

So it is useful for the attacking strategy because, in the event that the opposition commits too many players forward, your team will break with high mentality and get forward to punish them.

Hope that makes sense.

Regards,

C.

[Svenc]

Svenc - I believe things like counter-attack will actually be redefined in the new manual.

Essentially, my understanding of counter-attack is that it doesn't actually work as suggested in the manual. Counter-attack in FM basically means that, in a certain situation when a counter-attack seems viable (i.e. opposition have committed players forward leaving space to exploit), your players will effectively move up to a high mentality with high forward runs in order to exploit the space available for the duration of that particular move. To summarise, if the opposing team is short at the back, the whole team will go into counter-attack mode. However, if they are not short, the mode will not initialise.

So it is useful for the attacking strategy because, in the event that the opposition commits too many players forward, your team will break with high mentality and get forward to punish them.

Hope that makes sense.

Regards,

C.

That's the kind of thing that I've heard whispered about as "rumoured" effect on these forums all along. And thanks for proving that parts of the manual have contradicted the effect on the match engine all along. Like I said, core issues. It doesn't either start at the counter atack tickbox, nor does it end there.

I've got a question though: Does this (re-defined?) effect of the counter attack tick box mean a team would ONLY initiate an attack when the opposition is pushing up and short at the back? After all, my understanding of attacking football is that a team would try to penetrate the opponent's defense as often as possible.

[spankie]

I could be wrong, but I think that attacking football means that the mentalities of the team is higher then it is with standard. So they will penetrate the opponent's defence more often, or at least try to.

The counter-attack tick box probably just pushes the mentalities up a bit more if/when a counter attack opportunity appears, so you'll see more players pushing up and doing it at a slightly higher tempo then normal to try to take advantage of the chance.

[GIMN]

I think it brings more realism to the game. The next step for me, is to develop tactics into the training module (e.g. you train players to play at a certain tempo, or to become competent at a particular style of football. You can then practice different scenarios, or prepare for playing a different style of game against certain opponents - leading to feedback to evaluate whether the players appeared competent or comfortable in these settings).

The Tactics Creator is still only the first step. You tell your players that you want them to play short, and be patient in their play. Then they'll do this. On the pitch, however, you may notice that they still rush too much, or that their play is too direct. At this point you'll have to tweak on the advanced settings. As the sliders will be pre-set by the settings you've made previously, you'll be working from a strong base. Similarly, if your full-backs are getting caught too far up the pitch, or losing possession because they constantly look to move the ball forward, you may wish to individual tweak their mentality settings.

Ultimately, the new system allows you to express your theories more tangibly. To get everything spot on, however, you will need to make adjustments, and fine tune certain elements. That said, the new system allows the casual gamer to achieve what they want and react to the game situations without requiring a complete overhaul of their tactic (e.g. losing one-nil, might take off a def mid and bring on an att mid - much easier to just drag the player into the new position and set his role and mentality. Similarly, winning one-nil, might want to turn his wingers into defensive wingers to minimalise the oppositions threat down the flanks)

[spankie]

I have to agree that the Tactics Creator needs some improvement, especially to add some form of customization to the touchline shouts and to be able to create our own player roles. But as the first version of this feature it's pretty good.

[Svenc]

IThat said, the new system allows the casual gamer to achieve what they want and react to the game situations without requiring a complete overhaul of their tactic.

My entire argument is that the casual gamer in particular is at a complete loss when trying to further tweak this, due to the fact that neither the sliders nor the tick boxes are explained properly. And then you've got not only the casuals, but players dedicated enough to discuss this in-depth on the forums, and they're not always quite sure either: "The counter-attack tick box probably just pushes the mentalities up a bit.. ", as taken from this very thread.

How the hell are you supposed to tweak this if the basic means of control are either falsely explained (see a couple posts above), or merely hinted at?

[crouchaldinho]

I've got a question though: Does this (re-defined?) effect of the counter attack tick box mean a team would ONLY initiate an attack when the opposition is pushing up and short at the back? After all, my understanding of attacking football is that a team would try to penetrate the opponent's defense as often as possible.

No, it doesn't mean that. As I said before, my understanding is that the counter-attack 'mode', for want of a better word, will only kick in when a counter-attacking opportunity presents itself.

C.

[paulowen]

Well then it is minimal. I just had the impression that FM was the most advanced/challenging game on the market and then at the same time we get 'drop down menus' where it doesn't require any thought, why didn't we get the same options with training? We could have a drop down menu for individual training regimes.

I am well aware that this game was not built for me personally or for anyone specifically, but I can't help feeling that this game has been 'dumbed-down' a tad...

Not dumbed down, just made more relative to real football and not just a game for geeks with no lives to spend hour upon hour studying every little detail.

[Loversleaper]

Not dumbed down, just made more relative to real football and not just a game for geeks with no lives to spend hour upon hour studying every little detail.

I really hope you didn't suggest that I am a geek, or anyone else that puts any effort into this game. I think you are a little personal somehow and I think you are not looking at a bigger picture here. Suggesting that people don't have lives is a bold statement from some faceless person that apparently has no idea what is going on outside of their own reality, I mean seriously what do you really know about me anyway? Some people enjoy having a challenge, using their small talents to figure out things that maybe are difficult thus using some of their personal time (also to help others). Please, at least try to be a team player, you don't have to agree with everybody but please keep it civilised so you don't look like an immature kid.

Most of us here are trying to bring forth ideas that will aid in making the game more user-friendly for everyone, but it is incredibly hard to have a conversation that makes any sense when people don't even talk about the game as if it was done by the work of Computer-Programming. No matter how people feel, all games in the world need some form of 'calculation', if you do not know this then how will we ever be able to make any sense of a conversation? I am all in for changes, don't get me wrong so if you want to have a healthy discussion with anybody here let's keep name calling or stereotyping to a minimal. Thanks...

[bigdunk]

Counter attack was discussed quite accurately by either PaulC or Ov quite recently. If memory serves, it's something along the lines of a counter attack is initiated if you have possession and there are X more attackers in the opposing half than there are defenders. In a counter attack, all the players involved have their mentalities set at maximum attacking. Ticking the counter attack box just makes X a lower value, so you only have to have maybe 2 extra players to counter attack, instead of 3 normally.

[Ov Collyer]

I think "dumbed-down" would be more of an argument if the tactics creator system had completely replaced the sliders so that you did not have access to them anymore.

[Loversleaper]

I think "dumbed-down" would be more of an argument if the tactics creator system had completely replaced the sliders so that you did not have access to them anymore.

Well, we don't need to now, do we?...

[Ov Collyer]

We don't need to what?

[Loversleaper]

We don't need to what?

Use the sliders...

[Ov Collyer]

If you are comfortable with the way the new system sets things up, then no, you don't need to use them.

If you have your own preferred way of doing things, then the sliders are there to give you the means to do that.

So best of both Worlds

[Svenc]

Well, we don't need to now, do we?...

Yes, you do, given how many different players from all different levels are in the game. These are one-size-fits-all maskings. F'r instance, the creator may put the creativity settings of a rather limited player all the way up, leading to him making crucial mistakes. If the real effect doesn't contradict the vague description in the manual too ("players doing their own stuff, trying the more ambitious"), you would need to tweak that. Same goes for pretty much every single setting there is - you might start out with a pre-defined setting, but then alter a couple of options that it is more tailor-made and hands on to both your team plans as well as the player's individual strenghts. Or lack thereof...

[Loversleaper]

Yes, you do, given how many different players from all different levels are in the game. These are one-size-fits-all maskings. F'r instance, the creator may put the creativity settings of a rather limited player all the way up, leading to him making crucial mistakes. If the real effect doesn't contradict the vague description in the manual too ("players doing their own stuff, trying the more ambitious"), you would need to tweak that. Same goes for pretty much every single setting there is - you might start out with a pre-defined setting, but then alter a couple of options that it is more tailor-made and hands on to both your team plans as well as the player's individual strenghts. Or lack thereof...

I know what you are saying but I don't think this was the plan behind the creator. It would be misleading an entire nation of Gamers that think that things actually have changed, I mean look at some of the posts written lately...

[Svenc]

I know what you are saying but I don't think this was the plan behind the creator. It would be misleading an entire nation of Gamers that think that things actually have changed, I mean look at some of the posts written lately...

Not really misleading, as it is providing points to both go with as well as work from. But try to take a look at the advanced settings, doesn't matter if you're managing Bath or Chelsea , the tactics creator is doing the same thing - Bath's "fullback" is given the same settings as Bosinghwa by default. The option of playing someone as a "Fullback" is a set of pre-defined slider settings.

[Loversleaper]

Not really misleading, as it is providing points to both go with as well as work from. But try to take a look at the advanced settings, doesn't matter if you're managing Bath or Chelsea , the tactics creator is doing the same thing - Bath's "fullback" is given the same settings as Bosinghwa by default. The option of playing someone as a "Fullback" is a set of pre-defined slider settings.

I was being a little sarcastic but I am well aware of this, I just hope that this is apparent for the rest of the people. So, what you are saying is: no matter what the interpretation is we still have to deal with a calculating mechanism and can't expect the dots on the screen to move by themselves...

[paulowen]

Loversleaper - I think it's farily obvious to say that caluclations are involved in computer games as it is not real life it is a game after all. But it is a 'game' therefore the method to achieve the desired outcome needs to be fun and challenging, not a mathematical calculation. The idea behind any game method to acheive success surely has to relate to 'real life' of the game setting.

Therefore the new tactic wizard is a much more user friendly system in which people can more easily relate to real life. The slider system was just too much of a nightmare trying to actually work out what the sliders do which then needed far too much studying of the engine which basically sapped the enjoyment factor out of the game.

[Svenc]

The slider system was just too much of a nightmare trying to actually work out what the sliders do

Which wasn't down to sliders being means of control. And how has this been fixed with the current system? How is the pre-set "attacking winger" setup given to your Conference South left midfielder an option, considering what level of technical ability is demanded of the player with high creativity settings - at least according to the manual?

[paulowen]

Which wasn't down to sliders being means of control. And how has this been fixed with the current system? How is the pre-set "attacking winger" setup given to your Conference South left midfielder an option, considering what level of technical ability is demanded of the player with high creativity settings - at least according to the manual?

So are you saying IRL they don't have attacking wingers at that kind of level? I'm pretty sure they do. What you have to remember is the wingers at that level will not be as good but neither will the defenders be they're playing against. The manual will state the attributes needed for that role but that will be for each level of football to there scale if that makes sense.

[Svenc]

So are you saying IRL they don't have attacking wingers at that kind of level? I'm pretty sure they do. What you have to remember is the wingers at that level will not be as good but neither will the defenders be they're playing against.

Which is already reflected by the attributes. The thing is that this is a pre-defined setting labelled "attacking winger" - nothing more, nothing less. This is a base-standard to work from, something put in there to go from if you want a player to roughly behave like an attacking winger in real football, nothing more, nothing less. The most immediate means of communication between you and a player remain the sliders and tick boxes underneath. What these settings do at their standard is to tell Swindon's attacking winger to go as crazy as Cristiano Ronaldo. Would you tell Swindon's attacking winger to go all wild like this, given his lesser ability?

And then creativity is only one example. I have a hard time thinking about Conference South sides being able to cope with some of the closing down pre-sets that come with this.

[paulowen]

Which is already reflected by the attributes. The thing is that this is a pre-defined setting labelled "attacking winger" - nothing more, nothing less. This is a base-standard to work from, something put in there to go from if you want a player to roughly behave like an attacking winger in real football, nothing more, nothing less. The most immediate means of communication between you and a player remain the sliders and tick boxes underneath. What these settings do at their standard is to tell Swindon's attacking winger to go as crazy as Cristiano Ronaldo. Would you tell Swindon's attacking winger to go all wild like this, given his lesser ability?

And then creativity is only one example. I have a hard time thinking about Conference South sides being able to cope with some of the closing down pre-sets that come with this.

I can't really be bothered going in to it to be honest but all as I'll say to you is if you don't like the new tactic creator then don't use it and just use the sliders