Well that was Embarrassing... (Player naming)

[Cysne]

Having them score 3 goals, in less then 5 minutes when they are pretty much down and out, is pretty unrealistic. In my opinion anyway.

[damienroden]

Oh my god, SA are a great team, I am not even going to go there with someone who has that opinion lol.

They have won the Asian cup a few times and qualified for the World Cup a fair few times.

[x42bn6]

Agreed, Saudi Arabia aren't a bad team, although they have a bad habit of getting thumped every time they go near good opposition. Al-Qahtani isn't a bad striker in Asia.

That said, I think grey players are probably still too strong in some ways.

But remember that England have also struggled against rubbish opposition, like Macedonia and have looked unconvincing against Andorra.

[Rahat]

Unlucky mate. England's first team would have struggled

[jackripper]

what about fa cup few years back leeds top of prem cardiff city top of div 2 cardiff win 2-1

[velonce]

Bolivia 6 - Argentina 1 (Managed by Maradona)

Thats probably even more embarassing.

[Celtic_1967]

Guys never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(Wish I could remember where I read that, come to think of it, it may be in a SI users location)

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

Bolivia 6 - Argentina 1 (Managed by Maradona)

Thats probably even more embarassing.

Bolivia usually perform well in their qualification group. You'd be surprised as I was when I saw the latest group standings, or when I usually look in to them.

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

Guys never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(Wish I could remember where I read that, come to think of it, it may be in a SI users location)

Judging by your quote you have more experience in this than anyone, so I wouldn't even enter a discussion (not an argument) with you.

[Celtic_1967]

I have lots of experience dealing with idoits. I have to talk to the general public for a living. Thats why it was so easy for me to spot you and the reason I'm now leaving them thread.

Before I go I'd like to say this:

The result is freak, granted. However it is not totally unheard of for a team to come back within the last few minutes. It doesnt matter who the team are. If the result were based on 'real life' and not on FM tactics then it would be pointless playing the game. Every season Celtic or Rangers would win the SPL and thos people who like to play as Aberdeen etc would be wasting their time, England would make it to the Quater/Semi finals and lose on penalties to the Germans. The whole point of the game is to outwit it tactically. Therefore if you are 2 up with 5 - 10minutes to play you need to tighten up at the back to avoid conceeding late goals.

I will agree that 3 goals so late in the game is unlikely, but you need to accept that if you dont react to the tactical changes the AI is making then you risk conceeding late goals as the AI goes 4-2-4. The result is freak but as Neji said with so many people playing so many saves occassionally these results will happen and usually it is as a result of the user not adapting to the changes tha AI is making.

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

Nothing we haven't already heard then....I'm still waiting to be convinced but thanks for the try.

[juve_curr]

That is embarrassing. Saudi Arabia nearly lost.

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

Lol, nicely put.

[abfc]

N.Ireland 1 England 0

N.Ireland 3 Spain 2

Enough said

[SnakeXe]

I think it's great that the game allows results like this to happen, because it does happen in real life. It may only have happened once in the history of the game, or even never, but things like this are possible.

If you think about it, there's what, 120 years of the professional game (roughly). Think about how many seasons (put together) that everyone on these boards has played. It's got to be in the millions. So that's 10,000 times more seasons than have ever occurred in real life.

Don't you think it'd be unrealistic if in all those seasons, a team like Saudi Arabia didn't beat a team like England ever?

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

N.Ireland 1 England 0

N.Ireland 3 Spain 2

Enough said

Did Northern Ireland score all their goals in the last 3 minutes of the game? Just wondered.

[SnakeXe]

Did Northern Ireland score all their goals in the last 3 minutes of the game? Just wondered.

Overconfident side whose minds are already in the showers concede a goal against the run of play as they're still going forward late in the game.

I don't think it's too unrealistic for them to panic and concede another. A third would be rarer, but see my post above yours.

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

I think it's great that the game allows results like this to happen, because it does happen in real life. It may only have happened once in the history of the game, or even never, but things like this are possible.

If you think about it, there's what, 120 years of the professional game (roughly). Think about how many seasons (put together) that everyone on these boards has played. It's got to be in the millions. So that's 10,000 times more seasons than have ever occurred in real life.

Don't you think it'd be unrealistic if in all those seasons, a team like Saudi Arabia didn't beat a team like England ever?

I agree with you, there should be the option of it happening, but in the last 3 minutes? Not very realistic.

I'm not saying things like this shouldn't happen, I really think they can and should. But in this situation it is ridiculous, 3 goals from a poor team in the last 3 minutes? This isn't a rare thing either, I have seen lots of these occurrencies making it happen all too often if you don't shut up shop no matter who you are playing as or against.

I can't remember if I put one of my points in this thread or another of a similar nature, but it was to say that I was playing as Man Utd and in a cup match against a non league team (think it was histon), 3-0 up with about 25 mins left and they came back to equalise and level it at 3-3. Can you really imagine fergie sending on defenders to shut out the game against non league opposition? John Motson saying 'well it's getting tense here now, Man Utd are 3-0 up and we really expect them to tighten things up due to the threat posed by Histon in the last 25 minutes'? It simply wouldn't happen and there is too much emphasis in the game on this side of tactics, surely player common sense should come in to it.

[abfc]

Did Northern Ireland score all their goals in the last 3 minutes of the game? Just wondered.

no

Healy 20,64,80

xavi 14 Villa 52

But the fact remains that these two results where complete freaks (and btw cost me a tenner!! never bet against your home country lol). As good as NI was playing they werent/arent anywhere near the same quality as these two nations.

If these results didnt happen in rl but instead in FM there would be a few threads lol.

I'm not someone wh remembers stats but a fw years ago didnt UTD score quite a few of their goals in the final 10?

[SnakeXe]

surely player common sense should come in to it.

And that, my friend, is the crux of the matter.

Player common sense cannot come in to it from a gaming and coding point of view, other than in the guise of creative freedom. You have to use your common sense to do it for the players, unfortunately.

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

no

Healy 20,64,80

xavi 14 Villa 52

But the fact remains that these two results where complete freaks (and btw cost me a tenner!! never bet against your home country lol). As good as NI was playing they werent/arent anywhere near the same quality as these two nations.

If these results didnt happen in rl but instead in FM there would be a few threads lol.

I'm not someone wh remembers stats but a fw years ago didnt UTD score quite a few of their goals in the final 10?

Yes they were complete freaks but not in the same league as this freak lol

This is the Quasimodo of results, trouble is they happen too often! I appreciate Si have included the chance of freak results happening in their game but the way in which it is implemented is daft at times, how do you explain the 7-6 result I described earlier?

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

And that, my friend, is the crux of the matter.

Player common sense cannot come in to it from a gaming and coding point of view, other than in the guise of creative freedom. You have to use your common sense to do it for the players, unfortunately.

So basically you are saying that anything can happen in any given game, which makes the whole game a farce.

By this theory you have just explained (and I am not having a go at you just to be clear), If you are playing as Real Madrid in a friendly against Bognor Regis, and you are 2-0 up with all your megastars out, but you fail to go defensive you stand the chance of being pegged back and even lose with 3 minutes to go?

[damienroden]

Of course that can happen, it is two teams on a field, anything that can happen will happen eventually. You shouldn't have to shut up shop to stop it happening, but if he is using a very attacking tactic, as far as the players are concerned they have to play that attacking tactic up to the final minute. So they are punished when they're all pushed up and a bit tired. Oh, and it is last 7 minutes, rather than last 3.

[SnakeXe]

So basically you are saying that anything can happen in any given game, which makes the whole game a farce.

By this theory you have just explained (and I am not having a go at you just to be clear), If you are playing as Real Madrid in a friendly against Bognor Regis, and you are 2-0 up with all your megastars out, but you fail to go defensive you stand the chance of being pegged back and even lose with 3 minutes to go?

You stand the chance of every single player on your team breaking their leg and forfeiting the match, but that's neither here nor there.

The likelihood of Real Madrid losing 3-2 in a friendly being 2-0 up with 3 to play is less than England losing to Saudi Arabia in a World Cup game. There's way more pressure on England to not screw up.

Think about it, they concede a goal having been comfortable, they all think "Oh no, if we concede another we're going to be all over the back pages tomorrow - national disgrace" etc. Pressure gets to them, they concede another. Heads drop, and thats 3-2.

Whereas in a friendly with Real Madrid, if Bognor somehow claw a goal back, they think "Well done little men" and pat them on the head, then play keepy-uppies for the rest of normal time and go for a beer.

Besides, the gap between Real and Bognor is far, far bigger than between England and Saudi Arabia

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

Of course that can happen, it is two teams on a field, anything that can happen will happen eventually. You shouldn't have to shut up shop to stop it happening, but if he is using a very attacking tactic, as far as the players are concerned they have to play that attacking tactic up to the final minute. So they are punished when they're all pushed up and a bit tired. Oh, and it is last 7 minutes, rather than last 3.

His tactics were 4-4-2 as he described, I think....never the most attacking football with 4-4-2 really, I use it all the time and while it can be attacking it is never wreckless. If they were he would have conceded far earlier surely? So I would rule that out.

I never knew how many mins of injury time were added so I just said 3 + injury time earlier. Fair enough it could be 7, all 420 seconds of stupidity from a great England side.

Saudi would surely be tired too? So I would also rule that factor out.

I doubt I can be convinced to be honest, all these things happen too often and because SI have said it is in the programming it is all too easy to say it can happen now if you don't go defensive. In my opinion it is obviously a flaw with the game. I'd still love an explanation to my 7-6 game lol

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

You stand the chance of every single player on your team breaking their leg and forfeiting the match, but that's neither here nor there.

The likelihood of Real Madrid losing 3-2 in a friendly being 2-0 up with 3 to play is less than England losing to Saudi Arabia in a World Cup game. There's way more pressure on England to not screw up.

Think about it, they concede a goal having been comfortable, they all think "Oh no, if we concede another we're going to be all over the back pages tomorrow - national disgrace" etc. Pressure gets to them, they concede another. Heads drop, and thats 3-2.

Whereas in a friendly with Real Madrid, if Bognor somehow claw a goal back, they think "Well done little men" and pat them on the head, then play keepy-uppies for the rest of normal time and go for a beer.

Besides, the gap between Real and Bognor is far, far bigger than between England and Saudi Arabia

Not that far lol, Saudi are crap, lets face it. Asian cup? Don't make me laugh.

I hope you're not being influenced by the Aussie lol, he probably thinks you can pick the ball up, run with it whilst kicking hell out of everyone around you, then boot it over the goals for 2 points! Saudi are crap and anyone who knows real football (not FM player attributes) knows this.

As for the pressure, England had already qualified as he said, so doubt that would be a factor really....

[abfc]

http://www.soccerphile.com/soccerphile/news/comebacks.html

Have a read of this article:)

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

Thanks for that abfc, still I think if this result were in real life it would top it by a mile as it still stands out from any of those. Lets not forget Saudi don't possess the players to be able to do this IRL, whereas the teams on that list all had great players and more time, or were both poor teams.

There was no result on that list really where a class team was beaten so late with so little time left by a **** poor team.

[abfc]

Thanks for that abfc, still I think if this result were in real life it would top it by a mile as it still stands out from any of those. Lets not forget Saudi don't possess the players to be able to do this IRL, whereas the teams on that list all had great players and more time, or were both poor teams.

There was no result on that list really where a class team was beaten so late with so little time left by a **** poor team.

Sorry how about the very first one?

Dresden were a pretty big deal in the 80's iirc

well here is one close to your own heart:p

Cardiff 2-Leeds 1 2002

Cardiff division2, Leeds top of the EPL meeting in the FA cup

Cardiff scored the winner with 5 mins to go

In 2008 Barnsley knocked out both Liverpool and Chelsea in the FA cup.

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

Sorry how about the very first one?

Dresden were a pretty big deal in the 80's iirc

well here is one close to your own heart:p

Cardiff 2-Leeds 1 2002

Cardiff division2, Leeds top of the EPL meeting in the FA cup

Cardiff scored the winner with 5 mins to go

In 2008 Barnsley knocked out both Liverpool and Chelsea in the FA cup.

England didn't have a man sent off in this match, unlike Leeds who had Smith sent off and had to cope for 45 mins with 10 men.

[abfc]

England didn't have a man sent off in this match, unlike Leeds who had Smith sent off and had to cope for 45 mins with 10 men.

You see all I am trying to say is that results dont always happen the way you would think. Usualy the better team will win but sometimes the lesser team does. Now that usualy happens if they are close, like two EPL teams but sometimes freak or unrealistic results do happen.

Now SI have had to code this into the game, which sometimes leads to some very wierd results. I concede that its not perfect nor do I think it will ever be, it is just computer code after all.

But if you saved those freak results and replayed them over and over again- you would probably win 99/100. Sometimes you just have to let loose a few swear words and just get on with the game:)

[SnakeXe]

Not that far lol, Saudi are crap, lets face it. Asian cup? Don't make me laugh.

I hope you're not being influenced by the Aussie lol, he probably thinks you can pick the ball up, run with it whilst kicking hell out of everyone around you, then boot it over the goals for 2 points! Saudi are crap and anyone who knows real football (not FM player attributes) knows this.

As for the pressure, England had already qualified as he said, so doubt that would be a factor really....

The Saudis can be as rubbish as you like, but they're still eleven men playing against eleven other men.

By who?

Oh come on, have you read any English newspaper reports recently?! If England lost to Saudi Arabia in any game, even a friendly, they'd be absolutely crucified. It's that pressure which is on England's shoulders every time they step on the pitch, the fear of making the mistake that lets the team down.

It's one of the things that Capello has tried to reduce, because it produces the kind of football you saw at WC2006 under Eriksson. No imagination, no risks taken, dour, terrible football.

[x42bn6]

I've mentioned before that 2-0 is a very dangerous scoreline in the past and is probably the worst winning scoreline you can get. This is because a goal for the other side brings the score to 2-1 which is a huge psychological boost for one side and a huge psychological blow for the other. At 2-1 up in Football Manager terms, they will throw the kitchen sink at you so you must adapt. England are capable of controlling the game so I suppose it's your tactics to concede another, and then another.

Unlikely yes but Saudi Arabia are not a poor team. Don't forget they usually only play other poorly-ranked Asian opponents so they don't get as many ranking points as European or South American teams, and the fact that a small points increase at Saudi Arabia's level can catapault them up several places while it wouldn't make a dent on, say, Spain's ranking. In other words, for all we know places 40-70 could be separated by very little.

[Ezequiel_Lavezzi]

I thought I was a whiner!!

Look, everyone knows about the "comeback" factor in FM. It happens also in FML.

Last few minutes, you're up 2-0 or what not, even 3-0 to 4-0 at times (has happened to me) and suddenly you draw or lose.

This is because the match engine probably calculates a little too many factors in the final moments.

I don't know exactly how the match engine works, actually I have no idea how it is coded. However I can safely assume a few things...

1. When you make a change, the code calculates the final result. In the final few minutes, the opposition (be it human or AI) makes any drastic changes, the final result can sometimes drastically change, even in 5 minutes.

2. I think, maybe - just maybe and SI can correct me on this. In the final moments of the game, certain aspects come into play when they probably do not mean much or not as much throughout the game. Fitness, composure, determination, decisions, stamina, professionalism and probably experience (CA etc). So suddenly the game calculates that the opposition is down lets say 2-0, and the other team has very low composure and fitness and suddenly, they capitulate and lose 3-2 as you have done.

3. It's a game and sometimes even if you play defensive, you have to admit it is a game and at the end of the day it is bound to be A LOT more random than real life. In real life, when you're down 2-0 and there's a few minutes to go, most teams will hold their head down and accept the loss. This more than likely won't happen to a bunch of pixels on a screen, that have no awareness of their own existance and are of course, designed by 20-30 people in a gaming studio.

Also x42bn6 - I totally disagree with your comments that Saudi Arabia are actually a really good side and are only poorly ranked because they "play other poorly-ranked Asian opponents so they don't get as many ranking points as European or South American teams". Sorry - totally wrong. If they had performed well against these sides and actually dominated their games (similar to Australia) they would be higher ranked. However they do not play as many games and when they do, although as you stated vs weaker sides in Asia, they still performed badly, even losing to very small nations.

Australia is proof that an Asian side can play well and climb the rankings - and they have done this because of a near flawless campaign - and not because of winning friendlies against top sides around the World.

[neutral]

It's quite funny that the OP is OK with that result and go on to win the WC, while some League One supporter fuming at the result...

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

It's quite funny that the OP is OK with that result and go on to win the WC, while some League One supporter fuming at the result...

He said it was unrealistic actually and that he thought it was stupid. Also who I support has nothing to do with anything so why you bring it up I don't know.

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

I thought I was a whiner!!

Look, everyone knows about the "comeback" factor in FM. It happens also in FML.

Last few minutes, you're up 2-0 or what not, even 3-0 to 4-0 at times (has happened to me) and suddenly you draw or lose.

This is because the match engine probably calculates a little too many factors in the final moments.

I don't know exactly how the match engine works, actually I have no idea how it is coded. However I can safely assume a few things...

1. When you make a change, the code calculates the final result. In the final few minutes, the opposition (be it human or AI) makes any drastic changes, the final result can sometimes drastically change, even in 5 minutes.

2. I think, maybe - just maybe and SI can correct me on this. In the final moments of the game, certain aspects come into play when they probably do not mean much or not as much throughout the game. Fitness, composure, determination, decisions, stamina, professionalism and probably experience (CA etc). So suddenly the game calculates that the opposition is down lets say 2-0, and the other team has very low composure and fitness and suddenly, they capitulate and lose 3-2 as you have done.

3. It's a game and sometimes even if you play defensive, you have to admit it is a game and at the end of the day it is bound to be A LOT more random than real life. In real life, when you're down 2-0 and there's a few minutes to go, most teams will hold their head down and accept the loss. This more than likely won't happen to a bunch of pixels on a screen, that have no awareness of their own existance and are of course, designed by 20-30 people in a gaming studio.

Also x42bn6 - I totally disagree with your comments that Saudi Arabia are actually a really good side and are only poorly ranked because they "play other poorly-ranked Asian opponents so they don't get as many ranking points as European or South American teams". Sorry - totally wrong. If they had performed well against these sides and actually dominated their games (similar to Australia) they would be higher ranked. However they do not play as many games and when they do, although as you stated vs weaker sides in Asia, they still performed badly, even losing to very small nations.

Australia is proof that an Asian side can play well and climb the rankings - and they have done this because of a near flawless campaign - and not because of winning friendlies against top sides around the World.

I agree with point one totally, basically the ME is flawed when it comes to the last 10 mins of a game.

The other points can be argued but I am losing the will to live.

[woody2goody]

He said it was unrealistic actually and that he thought it was stupid. Also who I support has nothing to do with anything so why you bring it up I don't know.

I support Leeds as well mate but I don't agree with you.

Of course a result like that can happen, it's football. In fact, it's sport in general.

I was watching a game of baseball a couple of months ago, Boston Red Sox vs Baltimore Orioles I think, where Boston were 8-1 in front with 1 inning left. Now if anybody would have come up to me and told me just then that Baltimore would win 10-9, I would have laughed, and possibly swore at them and told them to go away as they obviously didn't have a clue about baseball.

What do you think happened?

Point is, it does only take a second to score a goal, against any team. It's unlikely that Saudi would beat England in this manner, but it's also extremely unlikely that Man Utd lose three games in a row, but that's just me being a sh!te manager.

[earmack]

My feeling is short of cheating you cant avoid results such as this one every so often, its just the way the game works. Its useless to debate about wether it would happen in real life because its a simulation of an unarranged (irl) fixture.

[Rushers82]

Maybe I'm joining this thread a bit late in the day but does anyone remember the 2002 World Cup when Senegal beat France 1-0? Prior to the world cup Senegal were ranked 43rd while France were 1st, so this goes to show that these kind of "freak" results do happen irl - and this wasnt even a 'dead rubber' match.

Also there was Cameroon v Argentina in 1990, though I'm not sure of the rankings on that one.

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

I have said that a team hanging on to a slim lead would be acceptable compared to this, however this example is totally different to anything posted on here yet.

Especially the baseball example lol, slightly different sport........Nice to see you support the right football team though (y)

[SnakeXe]

Levski Sofia v Royal Antwerp in 1989/90 UEFA Cup Second Round.

Levski were 3-1 up until the 91st minute and lost it 4-3 in normal time.

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

Lol how long did it take you to find that? Now we have an example of the actual scoreline happening but not it happening with the massive class difference between the teams.

[SnakeXe]

Lol how long did it take you to find that? Now we have an example of the actual scoreline happening but not it happening with the massive class difference between the teams.

Actually it's on page 125 of the Sept 2009 FourFourTwo, "Three Great UEFA Cup Moments", part of a feature on the new Europa League

To be fair, do you know how good Royal Antwerp and Levski Sofia were back then? Cause I sure don't!

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

Of course I do! Who wouldn't know that!

[Cardiovascular]

By your logic Leeds Leeds Leeds, Man Utd should not have beaten Bayern Munich in the Champion's League Final in 1999.

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

Why were Bayern Munich the Saudi Arabia of the Champions League in 1999? I thought they had a strong team, shows how wrong you can be...

[Cardiovascular]

So how do you know Saudi Arabia didn't have 2-3 amazing regens?

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

So how do you know Saudi Arabia didn't have 2-3 amazing regens?

Because it was 2010. They would have to develop at an amazing rate.

Also all the other factors which have already been discussed/debated which it seems you have chosen to ignore and just skimmed to the end of this debate to add your points, factors which I can't be bothered to explain again as judging by your first point your argument is pretty weak.

[fonz]

I think the key point in this argument was made towards the start of the thread. FM simulates reality through statistics so there is a probability, however, remote of any one team beating any other team. If the probability of, say, Andorra beating England is 1:1000000 it is very unlikley to happen in any one game, as even in a long game I might only simulate the match 3 or 4 times, but it is likley to happen in someones game due to the sheer number of simulations. I suppose the real life version would be asking if England played Andorra several million times would England defintely win every match?