Scottish Premiership Data [Discussion]

44 minutes ago, Stuart Milne said:

The Celtic players are rated by the Celtic researcher who - like most of our assistants across the globe - is a fan of the club he researches.

So if he's giving a player a certain potential ability, it's because he's judged that player should have that. If a player moves club and the researcher who researches that club is in control of the player and decides to give him a higher potential ability, there's not a lot that the Celtic researcher can do about that.

As it happens, Vata has a -75 which is the same as Josh Adam and more than Liam Morrison (-7) and Barry Hepburn (-6), Aidan Borland was never in the database prior to being created by the Aston Villa researcher.

Hopefully this addresses your concerns. 

 

Well no because sentence 1 and 3 are completely irrelevant to anything I posted. 

I know the researcher is a fan of the club, not sure why you felt the need to explain that?  Likewise I have no interest in what Adam's, Morrison or Hepburn's current  PA is because that's not the point I was making. 

My point is that as soon as young players leave Celtic  (Adam, Morrison, Hepburn and now Borland) they were given an accurate PA based on how highly they were rated amongst their peers at that specific time.  Yet the Celtic youth seem to be continually underrated until they leave.  Just using the examples I gave in the first post, the Bayern, Man City, Rangers and Villa researchers seem to be on the same wavelength but the Celtic researcher isn't.  

Ferns is 100% in the same bracket as Borland and Wyllie.  Likewise Mitchel Frame and Rocco Vata are as good as any Scotland players in their respective age groups so should be rated as such.  Carse on the other hand should be downgraded.  Last season Ange gave Vata and Summers gametime then this summer Brendan took and gave decent gametime to McPherson, Frame, Kelly and Vata at the Portuguese training camp and on the Asian tour whilst Carse was nowhere to be seen.  

It just seems like laziness more than anything tbh, in the same way they had Celtic paying a portion of Scott Sinclair's wage for several versions of the game despite him only having 5 months of his contract to run when he left.  Or why it's took until FM24 to include Frimpong's sell on despite everyone and their dug knowing it was 30% since Jan 2021.  

6 hours ago, celtic_fc said:

Well no because sentence 1 and 3 are completely irrelevant to anything I posted. 

I know the researcher is a fan of the club, not sure why you felt the need to explain that?  Likewise I have no interest in what Adam's, Morrison or Hepburn's current  PA is because that's not the point I was making. 

My point is that as soon as young players leave Celtic  (Adam, Morrison, Hepburn and now Borland) they were given an accurate PA based on how highly they were rated amongst their peers at that specific time.  Yet the Celtic youth seem to be continually underrated until they leave.  Just using the examples I gave in the first post, the Bayern, Man City, Rangers and Villa researchers seem to be on the same wavelength but the Celtic researcher isn't.  

Ferns is 100% in the same bracket as Borland and Wyllie.  Likewise Mitchel Frame and Rocco Vata are as good as any Scotland players in their respective age groups so should be rated as such.  Carse on the other hand should be downgraded.  Last season Ange gave Vata and Summers gametime then this summer Brendan took and gave decent gametime to McPherson, Frame, Kelly and Vata at the Portuguese training camp and on the Asian tour whilst Carse was nowhere to be seen.  

It just seems like laziness more than anything tbh, in the same way they had Celtic paying a portion of Scott Sinclair's wage for several versions of the game despite him only having 5 months of his contract to run when he left.  Or why it's took until FM24 to include Frimpong's sell on despite everyone and their dug knowing it was 30% since Jan 2021.  

I'm really not sure how my third sentence is "completely irrelevant" to your point, which - let's not forget - was "Why is it that when when a Celtic youth leaves the club for a top academy they invariable get given a -8 straight after leaving (Josh Adams, Liam Morrison, Barry Hepburn and this summer Aidan Borland) yet when they reject a move to a top academy and decide to stay at the club (Rocco Vata, Josh Dede and this summer Mitchel Frame and Ronan Ferns)  they're given lower PA ranges? "

So to break this down...

Rocca Vata - who you have suggested has a lower PA because he decided to reject a move to a top academy and stayed at Celtic - has a -75 for his PA. That PA will mean that he gets a randomly generated PA between 120 (Celtic First team level) and 150 (quality player at English Premiership level)

The comparisons you made include...

Josh Adam - Josh Adam has a PA of -75 which is equal to Vata
Liam Morrison - Liam Morrison has a PA of -7 in the database which is less than Vata. And in fact, looking at the field history in the database which stretches back to 2020 when we took it online, he had a PA of -8 initially, then in 2020 it was downgraded to -75, in 2021 to -65 and in 2022 back up to -7. So either he came in to the German database with a -8 given by the Celtic researcher, which was wrong, or the German team increased it wrongly and then decided to revert it back to what he originally had.
Barry Hepburn - Again, our records for field changes go back to our move to an online database in 2020, but I can see that in 2020, the German team moved Hepburn from having a -7 PA down to a -65 and then a -6.
Aidan Borland - He's 16 years old and hasn't been in the database before, so has never been rated by the Celtic researcher to either get an upgrade or a downgrade.

So with the examples you've given, the players have either been rated the same or downgraded when they've left Celtic in the database, or in the case of Borland was never at Celtic in the database to be rated differently.

Also, Ferns has a PA of -75 and Jack Wyllie has a PA of -7. Mitchel Frame has a PA of -75 and Stevens has a PA of -8.

To your other points about contracts, it's the responsibility of the researcher for a player's new club to ensure that his contract information is correct when that player is sent across. So if Celtic were paying a portion of Scott Sinclair's wage for several versions of the game, or if the German research team didn't ask for a sell on fee for Fringpong when the transfer was made and then subsequently missed it in other versions when we as the Scottish research team don't have access to that player to edit anymore, then how is that any fault of the Celtic researcher? The answer is that it's not.

If what this boils down to is "I think this player should be given a higher or lower PA and I disagree with the opinion of the Celtic researcher" then fine; you are entitled to that opinion, but in the event that you truly believed that players got a PA boost when they left Celtic, I would hope that the factual information provided above will evidence that you are incorrect.

4 hours ago, Stuart Milne said:

I'm really not sure how my third sentence is "completely irrelevant" to your point, which - let's not forget - was "Why is it that when when a Celtic youth leaves the club for a top academy they invariable get given a -8 straight after leaving (Josh Adams, Liam Morrison, Barry Hepburn and this summer Aidan Borland) yet when they reject a move to a top academy and decide to stay at the club (Rocco Vata, Josh Dede and this summer Mitchel Frame and Ronan Ferns)  they're given lower PA ranges? "

So to break this down...

Rocca Vata - who you have suggested has a lower PA because he decided to reject a move to a top academy and stayed at Celtic - has a -75 for his PA. That PA will mean that he gets a randomly generated PA between 120 (Celtic First team level) and 150 (quality player at English Premiership level)

The comparisons you made include...

Josh Adam - Josh Adam has a PA of -75 which is equal to Vata
Liam Morrison - Liam Morrison has a PA of -7 in the database which is less than Vata. And in fact, looking at the field history in the database which stretches back to 2020 when we took it online, he had a PA of -8 initially, then in 2020 it was downgraded to -75, in 2021 to -65 and in 2022 back up to -7. So either he came in to the German database with a -8 given by the Celtic researcher, which was wrong, or the German team increased it wrongly and then decided to revert it back to what he originally had.
Barry Hepburn - Again, our records for field changes go back to our move to an online database in 2020, but I can see that in 2020, the German team moved Hepburn from having a -7 PA down to a -65 and then a -6.
Aidan Borland - He's 16 years old and hasn't been in the database before, so has never been rated by the Celtic researcher to either get an upgrade or a downgrade.

So with the examples you've given, the players have either been rated the same or downgraded when they've left Celtic in the database, or in the case of Borland was never at Celtic in the database to be rated differently.

Also, Ferns has a PA of -75 and Jack Wyllie has a PA of -7. Mitchel Frame has a PA of -75 and Stevens has a PA of -8.

To your other points about contracts, it's the responsibility of the researcher for a player's new club to ensure that his contract information is correct when that player is sent across. So if Celtic were paying a portion of Scott Sinclair's wage for several versions of the game, or if the German research team didn't ask for a sell on fee for Fringpong when the transfer was made and then subsequently missed it in other versions when we as the Scottish research team don't have access to that player to edit anymore, then how is that any fault of the Celtic researcher? The answer is that it's not.

If what this boils down to is "I think this player should be given a higher or lower PA and I disagree with the opinion of the Celtic researcher" then fine; you are entitled to that opinion, but in the event that you truly believed that players got a PA boost when they left Celtic, I would hope that the factual information provided above will evidence that you are incorrect.

When Adam, Morrison, and Hepburn left Celtic they were all given a PA of -8, that was the point I was making and is indeed factual.  You telling me what their PA currently is doesn't change that fact.

Yeah you could then argue well wasn't the Celtic researcher more accurate all along seeing as they have since been downgraded?  But I'd argue that no, they were -8 at the point of leaving but there career has since stalled as a result of of making the leap to an elite academy too soon.  

Fair enough on the Sinclair and Frimpong points although I do remember reporting those issues both at the time and in subsequent editions of the game.  I guess that is kind of where the frustration comes from on my end because it wouldn't have took much to read the comment and then contact the necessary researchers to get it changed.  I guess I 'll leave the above at that although I still believe Frame, Vata and Ferns PA should be increased to match the best Scottish players from their respective age groups with Carse decreased.  

Just another couple of points then I'll leave you alone.  The Admira Wacker affiliate should be changed from 'financial benefits to both clubs' to a 'loan youth players and first option' since that's what it is.  Maeda's technical attributes do need looked at because at the moment he is only being rated as two stars in the Celtic squad for the position he has spent the best part of two years playing now although I do get that he's a tricky one since pace/acceleration takes up so much CA.  Personally thought the very first Maeda that appeared in the game at Celtic was more accurate and enjoyable to use.  

And lastly, Scales and O'Riley could probably do with a CA boost because in IRL they're either playing or being called up to their national sides whereas in the game they're both someway short of that.  And apologies if I started off as a bit of a-hole, I do think you guys do cracking job despite everything I've said.  

4 hours ago, celtic_fc said:

When Adam, Morrison, and Hepburn left Celtic they were all given a PA of -8, that was the point I was making and is indeed factual.  You telling me what their PA currently is doesn't change that fact.

Yeah you could then argue well wasn't the Celtic researcher more accurate all along seeing as they have since been downgraded?  But I'd argue that no, they were -8 at the point of leaving but there career has since stalled as a result of of making the leap to an elite academy too soon.  

Fair enough on the Sinclair and Frimpong points although I do remember reporting those issues both at the time and in subsequent editions of the game.  I guess that is kind of where the frustration comes from on my end because it wouldn't have took much to read the comment and then contact the necessary researchers to get it changed.  I guess I 'll leave the above at that although I still believe Frame, Vata and Ferns PA should be increased to match the best Scottish players from their respective age groups with Carse decreased.  

Just another couple of points then I'll leave you alone.  The Admira Wacker affiliate should be changed from 'financial benefits to both clubs' to a 'loan youth players and first option' since that's what it is.  Maeda's technical attributes do need looked at because at the moment he is only being rated as two stars in the Celtic squad for the position he has spent the best part of two years playing now although I do get that he's a tricky one since pace/acceleration takes up so much CA.  Personally thought the very first Maeda that appeared in the game at Celtic was more accurate and enjoyable to use.  

And lastly, Scales and O'Riley could probably do with a CA boost because in IRL they're either playing or being called up to their national sides whereas in the game they're both someway short of that.  And apologies if I started off as a bit of a-hole, I do think you guys do cracking job despite everything I've said.  

Fair points on Scales and O'Riley. Maeda is a nightmare to rate because of his Acc/Pace as you say.

On Fringpong, a quick search of this forum will find a post by our Celtic researcher in the German data issues thread saying they needed to add the sell-on. So even though it's entirely their responsibility, he did try.

And no worries, it's always fine for there to be constructive criticism.

But...and I hate to bring it back to this, you genuinely are wrong about the -8 stuff. Like I say, I am able to look back at every individual attribute and see when it was changed and who changed it. And for what it's worth, Hepburn was moved by my Celtic researcher to Bayern in August 2020 at which time he had a -7. He remained unedited by the German team until October 2020 when his Potential was downgraded to a -65.

Josh Adam was never at Celtic in FM, He was created in the database in August 2020 as a Man City player at which point he was given a -75 by the English research team and that literally has never changed.

Morrison's move predates my ability to check what he had at Celtic but he did have a -8 at one point and that may have been amended by the German research team or it may have been what he had when he left.

Even if it was changed then of your original four, that's the only one. Maybe you're referencing a custom database?

But look, I get it; potential ability gets changed upwards and downwards all the time at all levels. But you have to be a pretty special talent to justify a -8 or higher and there have been plenty at Celtic who have been given that over the years and its amounted to nothing, so perhaps our Celtic researcher is just a little more cautious? Even if he is, a -75 is still a really good rating.

38 minutes ago, Stuart Milne said:

Fair points on Scales and O'Riley. Maeda is a nightmare to rate because of his Acc/Pace as you say.

On Fringpong, a quick search of this forum will find a post by our Celtic researcher in the German data issues thread saying they needed to add the sell-on. So even though it's entirely their responsibility, he did try.

And no worries, it's always fine for there to be constructive criticism.

But...and I hate to bring it back to this, you genuinely are wrong about the -8 stuff. Like I say, I am able to look back at every individual attribute and see when it was changed and who changed it. And for what it's worth, Hepburn was moved by my Celtic researcher to Bayern in August 2020 at which time he had a -7. He remained unedited by the German team until October 2020 when his Potential was downgraded to a -65.

Josh Adam was never at Celtic in FM, He was created in the database in August 2020 as a Man City player at which point he was given a -75 by the English research team and that literally has never changed.

Morrison's move predates my ability to check what he had at Celtic but he did have a -8 at one point and that may have been amended by the German research team or it may have been what he had when he left.

Even if it was changed then of your original four, that's the only one. Maybe you're referencing a custom database?

But look, I get it; potential ability gets changed upwards and downwards all the time at all levels. But you have to be a pretty special talent to justify a -8 or higher and there have been plenty at Celtic who have been given that over the years and its amounted to nothing, so perhaps our Celtic researcher is just a little more cautious? Even if he is, a -75 is still a really good rating.

I hate to admit it but you're 100% right, only Morrison and Borland have been/are -8 since leaving and like you say Borland has never been in the database as a Celtic player before.  Even checked the FM21 editor cause I was that convinced it was in the original database.  So yeah, apologies for that.  Although I still maintain Ferns, Frame and Vata are as good as any Scotland talent out there but I do get PA ratings are opinion at the end of the day so I'll leave it there.  

Also glad to know the Celtic researcher did actually contact the German team to look into Frimpong's sell on cause I think that and the Sinclair clause was where much of my frustration was coming from to begin with. 

Another thing I did notice today when playing was that with Abada's sell on and both O'Riley's sell on and monthly fee buyouts, the game is making you buy it out twice for it to go away.  Not sure if that's just an issue with those two or a wider issue in the beta though?

Oh and any chance you would be willing to sneakily reveal Paulo Bernardo's PA so I can decide whether it's worth shelling out the £6.5m option?

 

 

A few more for St Johnstone, i think.

Ross Sinclair contract should be until 2026 now - https://www.perthstjohnstonefc.co.uk/news/article/ross-sinclair-signs-new-deal

Chris Kanes contract should just be until January - https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/sport/football/st-johnstone/4481101/st-johnstone-chris-kane-signs-6-month-contract/#:~:text=St Johnstone striker Chris Kane has signed a new six,final match of the season.

Roddy Grant is listed as a director and scout, which i dont think is right. He should just be a director.

We have a data analyst too now, whos also being talked about as helping recruitment so could have recruitment analyst as a secondary job if thats possible? - https://www.linkedin.com/in/liam-thomson-546a981a2?originalSubdomain=uk

Link to story with line confirming his role - https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/sport/football/st-johnstone/4601710/tommy-wright-st-johnstone-fc-sam-mcclelland-oludare-olufunwa/

Iwata should be closer to Maeda's Pace/Acceleration, because he clocked a top speed in Japan which was faster than Maeda's. I understand Iwata may have gotten rusty because he hasn't played much, but he is provenly quicker than what the beta attributes say.

https://keepup.com.au/news/what-can-celtic-fans-expect-from-j1-league-mvp-tomoki-iwata/

Also, Tilio is an Inverted Winger/inside Forward on the right, but in the beta, he is completely ineffectual on the right side of the attack.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Bunkerossian

On 24/10/2023 at 18:07, Stuart Milne said:

The Celtic players are rated by the Celtic researcher who - like most of our assistants across the globe - is a fan of the club he researches.

 

I was told by a local scout that the researcher for both Dundee FC and Dundee Utd is a Utd supporter. Is that true? 

On 29/10/2023 at 19:31, Garageflower said:

I was told by a local scout that the researcher for both Dundee FC and Dundee Utd is a Utd supporter. Is that true? 

Well there's a classic example of someone talking absolute nonsense.

The Dundee United researcher is - and has been since 1997 - me. The Dundee researcher is a Dundee fan who isn't me.

But the entirety of Scotland falls under my remit, so no doubt the Chinese whispers will have started because I'll have tweeted out questions asking about Dundee youth players in my role as Head Researcher.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Stuart Milne

Too late for Luis Palma upgrade?  I mean the guy is off the back of a great season at Aris and carried that into this season firstly with Aris (2 goals and 2 assists in CL qualifying plus an assist in his only league game) and now at Celtic (good record in the league and if not for the slightest of touches by Maeda would have 2 CL group stage goals in less than 150 minutes).  

Also forgot to add Yang to the Scales/O'Riley list of players who have been called up or capped for their international sides this season but are miles off a call up in game.  

On 19/10/2023 at 19:31, Stuart Milne said:

Looking at Le Fondre, he came in to the Hibs squad quite late and as part of that his contract is still set as 'Designated Player', which may or may not have caused the game to make up that he's on £15k.

Either way, it's not what we set 

Appears the wage hasn't been fixed. 

@Stuart Milne Both Abada and O'Riley's  sell on clause still need be bought twice, same goes for O'Riley's instalments.

I mean it's a simple fix in the editor but still, would've took one of you less than a minute to fix.

It doesnt look like anythings different at us either, Taylor Stevens loan to Alloa not added.

All a big strange as other countries are reported as missing simple database fixes too, did someone up top forget to switch things? 😂

4 hours ago, celtic_fc said:

@Stuart Milne Both Abada and O'Riley's  sell on clause still need be bought twice, same goes for O'Riley's instalments.

I mean it's a simple fix in the editor but still, would've took one of you less than a minute to fix.

I have the in-game editor and fixed the Le Fondre wage issue myself on my save. But you’re right it takes less than 30 seconds to fix something as small issue as that. 

13 hours ago, celtic_fc said:

@Stuart Milne Both Abada and O'Riley's  sell on clause still need be bought twice, same goes for O'Riley's instalments.

I mean it's a simple fix in the editor but still, would've took one of you less than a minute to fix.

 

11 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

It doesnt look like anythings different at us either, Taylor Stevens loan to Alloa not added.

All a big strange as other countries are reported as missing simple database fixes too, did someone up top forget to switch things? 😂

 

9 hours ago, StevehFC said:

I have the in-game editor and fixed the Le Fondre wage issue myself on my save. But you’re right it takes less than 30 seconds to fix something as small issue as that. 

Probably best just to give a link to this reply from Dean Gripton explaining the situation. We were locked out on 18th October so no, it neither would have taken us 30 seconds or a minute to fix because us researchers (and even head researchers) can't go in and fix it. This is also why other countries are also reporting as missing "simple database fixes".

5 hours ago, CaylumM said:

 

 

Probably best just to give a link to this reply from Dean Gripton explaining the situation. We were locked out on 18th October so no, it neither would have taken us 30 seconds or a minute to fix because us researchers (and even head researchers) can't go in and fix it. This is also why other countries are also reporting as missing "simple database fixes".

What a bizarre decision by SI to have that cut off date.

1 hour ago, RandomGuy. said:

What a bizarre decision by SI to have that cut off date.

So the beta was released on the 19th? That's why nothing was fixed for full release. 

 

 

David Watson (2000135060) - Kilmarnock - Contract should be until 2025, a new deal was signed in the summer. I also notice his preferred foot information is missing. He is naturally right footed and and I would probably give him a 8/10 for his left due to his technical ability.

Matthew Kennedy (61042103) - Kilmarnock -Matty's natural position is left wing. He has been used in a number of positions but LW/LW is still his natural position. He has (15) for RWB but I would reduce this (10-12) but also repeat this for LWB.

Daniel Armstrong (61068122) - Kilmarnock -  Daniel has mainly being playing the hybrid right wing back role in the last 18 months and currently has this role set as 0. I would recommend changing that at around 14/15 while perhaps reducing his striker role to around 8.

Fraser Murray (61080840) - Kilmarnock - Fraser has rarely played as a center midfielder in his career but for some reason has this set to 15 and attacking midfield to 17. I would recommend reducing both to below 15. Fraser has mainly played in wide positions in the last 2 and half years at Kilmarnock. Covering both wing back roles and wide midfield roles. My suggestion would be to change both wing back roles to around 12 and both wide midfield roles to 15. Fraser is also right footed with a semi strong left foot. Fraser having 15 for his left foot I think is too strong, 12 would be better.

Kilmarnock also currently has 0 for Corporate Facilities. I believe this figure is wrong due to the number of different packages they offer on match days and the fact the main stand has been furbished with a large hospitality suite.

I would also question some of ratings of the Kilmarnock's midfield. I also realize that this is down to opinion but to have someone like Ross Docherty quite a bit better than the majority of Kilmarnock's central midfield options is pretty questionable.  

Edited November 9, 2023 by Kilmarnock
Spelling.

Ross McCausland could probably do with a bit of a buff to his potential. 

Following up from my previous post, Ross McCausland started for Rangers today against Livingston. He had the ball in the net but it was ruled out (questionable decision). The young guy didn't look out of place at all. 

 

I'm currently managing Rangers in a save and the player doesn't have the ability to come into the squad and make this sort of impact, nor has he the potential too. I do think his potential needs a buff. They say he's know for his ability to go "inside and outside" from the wide areas. Comfortable on both feet. 

"The 20-year old winger’s pace caused more problems for the Lions midway through the first half when he won a penalty after being brought down by George as he ran on to a Tavernier pass.

Tavernier, however, sent his spot kick wide of the goalkeeper’s left-hand post.

Rangers had been well on top and they made a deserved breakthrough in the 26th minute when a lovely pass from Lawrence released Nigerian forward Dessers, who got away from Sean Kelly to slot the ball behind the advancing George.

McCausland thought he had scored his first senior goal for Rangers when he fired the ball high into the net just before half-time but the goal was disallowed for a foul by Abdallah Sima."

1 hour ago, PigeonStrangler said:

"The 20-year old winger’s pace caused more problems for the Lions midway through the first half when he won a penalty after being brought down by George as he ran on to a Tavernier pass.

Tavernier, however, sent his spot kick wide of the goalkeeper’s left-hand post.

Rangers had been well on top and they made a deserved breakthrough in the 26th minute when a lovely pass from Lawrence released Nigerian forward Dessers, who got away from Sean Kelly to slot the ball behind the advancing George.

McCausland thought he had scored his first senior goal for Rangers when he fired the ball high into the net just before half-time but the goal was disallowed for a foul by Abdallah Sima."

Great post.

17 hours ago, PigeonStrangler said:

Following up from my previous post, Ross McCausland started for Rangers today against Livingston. He had the ball in the net but it was ruled out (questionable decision). The young guy didn't look out of place at all. 

 

I'm currently managing Rangers in a save and the player doesn't have the ability to come into the squad and make this sort of impact, nor has he the potential too. I do think his potential needs a buff. They say he's know for his ability to go "inside and outside" from the wide areas. Comfortable on both feet. 

McCausland was still a B Team player when the database was locked and has been rated as such. He had only made a brief appearance v Aris and just over 45 mins v St Mirren.

I've already got a submission open with some changes based on his recent performances in the first team.

Laurie Ellis should be an U18 coach Rangers.

Laurie Ellis - Lead Phase Coach U15 & U16 - Rangers Football Club | LinkedIn

Oli Shaw's (Motherwell on loan from Barnsley) fixed potential is just way too high for a player who turns 26 in March. Shaw has only ever been consistent in the Scottish Championship and even then that was only over one season. He has always struggled for goals in the Scottish Premiership and I have no idea who felt he ever had that kind of potential. Personally I feel his potential should be dropped by around 15%. 

Scott Wright (Rangers) currently has his main position set as a central attacking midfielder. I believe this to be wrong and it should be set to a right attacking midfielder with a drop to 15 for central and 16 left.