Unconventional Tactics.

In the quest for calm, composed yet highly aggressive attacking football it seems that my own tactics in FM09 have departed radically from many of the established principles written about on these forums. My current tactics remain based upon the principles discussed in Tactics: A Less Is More Perspective which received a mainly positive reception, but since writing that post four months ago I have continued to go my own way and develop tactics based upon trial and error and the tools at my disposal. This has resulted in a tactical framework I regularly field and tweak which is unlike anything else I have read about on these forums, either in theory or as a completed system. I don't claim that this tactical framework is any kind of "killer" "diablo" or "uber" tactic and infact it may be quite poor in comparison to others, but for me it has started off functional and enjoyable to watch, and has improved consistently. This thread is not about me discussing my tactic and nothing else, what I want to do is bring up some unconventional tactical ideas for discussion and for example, and perhaps others will do likewise.

An Unconventional Tactic.

To be completely honest most people reading this will realise that in essence this tactic is not unconventional whatsoever and is infact remarkeably simple and used to be very commonplace. However the method of achieving its playstyle involves instructions that are highly unlikely to be discussed, let alone recommended. It is for this reason alone that I think it is worthy of bringing up for discussion.

Conventional.

It is a basic 4-4-2 that develops into a 2-4-4 when in possession. The fullbacks push up, the wingers do likewise, and the entire formation is ultimately the hallmark formation of English football during the 1990's.

Wingers RWB Often. Midfielders TTB Often. Fullbacks have FWR Often.

High Tempo, Low Timewasting, Middle of High Width.

Unconventional.

Six Free Roles, all four midfielders and both strikers.

4 HUB, both central midfielders and both fullbacks.

TTB Often and RWB Often for ALL players barring Centre Backs.

FWR Mixed for ALL players barring Fullbacks. No one in midfield or upfront has FWR Often or Rarely.

Identical, attacking mentalities all across the midfield and Fullbacks.

Identical mentalities for strikers, to be set according to opponent.

Maximum D-Line irrespective of opponent.

Mentalities and closing down and tackling of Centre Backs to be set according to opponent.

Power, positioning, and passing ability at Fullback position instead of Pace.

All Forward players are fast, agile and technically gifted.

As you can see this tactic goes against almost every established principle or commonly utilised practice. There is no DMC, MCd, MCa or AMC. There is no FCd or FCa. There are six Free Roles. There are no FWR Often for any player outside of the defence. The players Holding Up the Ball are the most defensively positioned players in my team outside of my Centrebacks and Goalkeeper. I have given RWB Often and TTB Often, both apparently contradictory instructions, to everyone on my team including Fullbacks barring ofcourse Centrebacks. I have pushed up slow, powerful Fullbacks that swap dribbling ability for passing ability and told them to RWB.

The entire purpose of this apparently rediculous and random set of instructions is to plant a solid, organised, aggressive yet considered and intelligent 2-4-4 formation on the edge of my opponents box. It is not the intelligence of me the tactician I wish to utilise but the intelligence of my players supported by careful instructions. Yes these instructions are careful.

Starting at the back, whenever I receive possession my solid and incredibly dependable Fullbacks push up into midfield. This crowds the midfield area with numbers as well as power. Due to the Free Roles on my wingers they are forced to look for space ahead of the midfield and will move ever further forward as my fullbacks push up, without bombing forward due to FWR Mixed. The closer the ball gets to the opponents goal, the further my fullbacks and central midfield advance and the closer my wingers get to my strikers. The entire point of the Free Roles are the exploitation of space and the making of runs without forcing those runs inevitably directly forward and onto the shoulders of the last man. The Central midfielders operate alongside the Fullbacks as a complete midfield unit of four, and as the game evolves are ever more inclined to search for space through the middle of the pitch, untill we get to the edge of the box where the space is very often the same place as a defence splitting run.

The instructions are key to this formation. In order to create even more space you want fast passing or dribbling. Fast passing is always nice but is very often ineffectual untill combined with TTB Often, at which point it no longer becomes fast, space creating passing. RWB Often is one of the key offensive instructions for this reason, as it is a direct threat and a space creator. With plenty of movement due to Free Roles and the ball carrier driving up the pitch, there is no need for fast, pretty passing and each pass can be a decisive through ball. To prevent "decisive" through balls coming from deep inside my own half, and to allow for my forward players to weave their magic, HUB on the Midfield four of CM and FB is vital. Each of these players can drive forward with the ball at his feet, play a dangerous pass into space, or take another touch and play it simple.

The other key element to this formation is the lack of FWR Often on the Strikers and Wingers, and their equal mentalities and instructions. These players operate as a Front Four when near the edge of the box, and they are equipped and instructed to either dribble directly at goal or play a decisive pass to another striker or a midfielder. The key as always is movement, numbers and directness of play in combination to careful, considerate yet attacking mentalities.

In short I have a back two that is organised according to my opponents attacking threat, pushing high up the pitch. Fullbacks that join up with the Central Midfielders and operate as a Unit of four powerful players with passing ability and instructions to HUB or otherwise drive forward and play a through ball. Ahead of them play four fast strikers whose runs are defined by space through Free Roles rather than defined by eagerness to get forward through FWR Often.

When possession is lost the opponent has a brutally tough midfield four to pass through, or a quick long punt forward to defeat my off-side trap and Centre Backs organised according to their strike threat. Should they waste time and pass the ball around the formation will revert to a 4-4-2 that has the equivelant of four centrebacks in defence.

This is my unconventional tactic. A 2-4-4 of 3 individual units working to cut the opponent apart with aggressive football but clever and continuous space generating movement, supported by plenty of numbers. As ever, I do not claim it to be anything special although the football is certainly pretty, but it is different enough from what is usually discussed to hopefully merit some discussion of its own. If anyone else has unconventional tactical ideas, whether whole tactics or simple instructions, I would love to read about them.

Sounds immense, but im at work

An Unconventional Tactic.

Unconventional.

Six Free Roles, all four midfielders and both strikers.

4 HUB, both central midfielders and both fullbacks.

TTB Often and RWB Often for ALL players barring Centre Backs.

FWR Mixed for ALL players barring Fullbacks. No one in midfield or upfront has FWR Often or Rarely.

.

Nice thread:thup:

This is more or less what I did in 08( in a arrowless formation) and its almost like the tactical setup I use at the moment with Palace.

I use a 41221 with

• Free roles given to the lone FC and all midfielders but the MCr.
  
• HUB - Fullbacks( my favourite) and my more aggressive MC®.
  
• TTballs and RWB settings used the same as in your approach.
  
• Differs from yours as Mentality is lowered a bit on all "free role player"
  

I then tweak it depending on opposition. Sometimes I play a very attacking, slow, normal-wide, counter attack game and sometimes I remove run with ball from my fullbacks and put them long balls,to supply my wingers on the break in a quick counter attack game.

I also use a unconventional marking system. I put my FC to tightly man-mark their more defensive MC/DMC and put my MCleft to man-mark their right-sided(important) DC. The movement of the FC( ppm moves into channels) is beautiful to watch.

Fascinating Stephen. I've been integrating and experimenting with your ideas for some time. Some things work; some don't appear to be too successful for me. Perhaps you can address some thoughts:

I use a 3 DC formation, allowing my wingbacks to operate more as wingers without worrying overly much about defending. I have 2 MCs, an AMC and 2 forwards (first choice are two quick poachers). I've just won the EPL and Europa Cup, so my team is now the strongest in England.

Amidst the general overall success, the problems I've faced are these:

Too much passing going astray, especially short passes. It seems to me that this is caused by the dual problem of tempo being too high and free roles putting players in the wrong places - but my analysis could be wrong. I should add that I keep time-wasting at 14-15 a la Lam's theory. Thus I'm undecided as to whether both my strikers and my wingbacks should be on free roles.

Secondly, I'm nervous about adopting your HUB tactic. My wingbacks are typically fast nippy chappies, as are my creative midfielders. They typically have STR of 10-11. Doesn't HUB require a brute of a guy who won't get knocked off the ball? I fear it would lead to further loss of possession when my players are pushed up the pitch. Or, are you saying that they would only hold the ball if unchallenged, and use their nous to get rid of it quickly if being closed down?

Waiting in antici.....

.....pation for your response!

In the quest for calm, composed yet highly aggressive attacking football it seems that my own tactics in FM09 have departed radically from many of the established principles written about on these forums. My current tactics remain based upon the principles discussed in Tactics: A Less Is More Perspective which received a mainly positive reception, but since writing that post four months ago I have continued to go my own way and develop tactics based upon trial and error and the tools at my disposal. This has resulted in a tactical framework I regularly field and tweak which is unlike anything else I have read about on these forums, either in theory or as a completed system. I don't claim that this tactical framework is any kind of "killer" "diablo" or "uber" tactic and infact it may be quite poor in comparison to others, but for me it has started off functional and enjoyable to watch, and has improved consistently. This thread is not about me discussing my tactic and nothing else, what I want to do is bring up some unconventional tactical ideas for discussion and for example, and perhaps others will do likewise.

An Unconventional Tactic.

To be completely honest most people reading this will realise that in essence this tactic is not unconventional whatsoever and is infact remarkeably simple and used to be very commonplace. However the method of achieving its playstyle involves instructions that are highly unlikely to be discussed, let alone recommended. It is for this reason alone that I think it is worthy of bringing up for discussion.

Conventional.

It is a basic 4-4-2 that develops into a 2-4-4 when in possession. The fullbacks push up, the wingers do likewise, and the entire formation is ultimately the hallmark formation of English football during the 1990's.

Wingers RWB Often. Midfielders TTB Often. Fullbacks have FWR Often.

High Tempo, Low Timewasting, Middle of High Width.

Unconventional.

Six Free Roles, all four midfielders and both strikers.

4 HUB, both central midfielders and both fullbacks.

TTB Often and RWB Often for ALL players barring Centre Backs.

FWR Mixed for ALL players barring Fullbacks. No one in midfield or upfront has FWR Often or Rarely.

Identical, attacking mentalities all across the midfield and Fullbacks.

Identical mentalities for strikers, to be set according to opponent.

Maximum D-Line irrespective of opponent.

Mentalities and closing down and tackling of Centre Backs to be set according to opponent.

Power, positioning, and passing ability at Fullback position instead of Pace.

All Forward players are fast, agile and technically gifted.

As you can see this tactic goes against almost every established principle or commonly utilised practice. There is no DMC, MCd, MCa or AMC. There is no FCd or FCa. There are six Free Roles. There are no FWR Often for any player outside of the defence. The players Holding Up the Ball are the most defensively positioned players in my team outside of my Centrebacks and Goalkeeper. I have given RWB Often and TTB Often, both apparently contradictory instructions, to everyone on my team including Fullbacks barring ofcourse Centrebacks. I have pushed up slow, powerful Fullbacks that swap dribbling ability for passing ability and told them to RWB.

The entire purpose of this apparently rediculous and random set of instructions is to plant a solid, organised, aggressive yet considered and intelligent 2-4-4 formation on the edge of my opponents box. It is not the intelligence of me the tactician I wish to utilise but the intelligence of my players supported by careful instructions. Yes these instructions are careful.

Starting at the back, whenever I receive possession my solid and incredibly dependable Fullbacks push up into midfield. This crowds the midfield area with numbers as well as power. Due to the Free Roles on my wingers they are forced to look for space ahead of the midfield and will move ever further forward as my fullbacks push up, without bombing forward due to FWR Mixed. The closer the ball gets to the opponents goal, the further my fullbacks and central midfield advance and the closer my wingers get to my strikers. The entire point of the Free Roles are the exploitation of space and the making of runs without forcing those runs inevitably directly forward and onto the shoulders of the last man. The Central midfielders operate alongside the Fullbacks as a complete midfield unit of four, and as the game evolves are ever more inclined to search for space through the middle of the pitch, untill we get to the edge of the box where the space is very often the same place as a defence splitting run.

The instructions are key to this formation. In order to create even more space you want fast passing or dribbling. Fast passing is always nice but is very often ineffectual untill combined with TTB Often, at which point it no longer becomes fast, space creating passing. RWB Often is one of the key offensive instructions for this reason, as it is a direct threat and a space creator. With plenty of movement due to Free Roles and the ball carrier driving up the pitch, there is no need for fast, pretty passing and each pass can be a decisive through ball. To prevent "decisive" through balls coming from deep inside my own half, and to allow for my forward players to weave their magic, HUB on the Midfield four of CM and FB is vital. Each of these players can drive forward with the ball at his feet, play a dangerous pass into space, or take another touch and play it simple.

The other key element to this formation is the lack of FWR Often on the Strikers and Wingers, and their equal mentalities and instructions. These players operate as a Front Four when near the edge of the box, and they are equipped and instructed to either dribble directly at goal or play a decisive pass to another striker or a midfielder. The key as always is movement, numbers and directness of play in combination to careful, considerate yet attacking mentalities.

In short I have a back two that is organised according to my opponents attacking threat, pushing high up the pitch. Fullbacks that join up with the Central Midfielders and operate as a Unit of four powerful players with passing ability and instructions to HUB or otherwise drive forward and play a through ball. Ahead of them play four fast strikers whose runs are defined by space through Free Roles rather than defined by eagerness to get forward through FWR Often.

When possession is lost the opponent has a brutally tough midfield four to pass through, or a quick long punt forward to defeat my off-side trap and Centre Backs organised according to their strike threat. Should they waste time and pass the ball around the formation will revert to a 4-4-2 that has the equivelant of four centrebacks in defence.

This is my unconventional tactic. A 2-4-4 of 3 individual units working to cut the opponent apart with aggressive football but clever and continuous space generating movement, supported by plenty of numbers. As ever, I do not claim it to be anything special although the football is certainly pretty, but it is different enough from what is usually discussed to hopefully merit some discussion of its own. If anyone else has unconventional tactical ideas, whether whole tactics or simple instructions, I would love to read about them.

This sounds very impressive! I wonder if you could give me some screenshots and if you please, can you put it up for download?

I really wanna try this in my Thrasyvoulos (Greece) save game.

I like the idea behind your tactic!

How would you approach a 4-4-1-1 formation with your unconventional ideas? How would you setup the AMC and FC?

One a more general note, do you always use mixed passing? And do you alter tempo depending on opposition or do you set it to a value then leave it?

Keep up the good work! This is the most interesting perspective of tactics I've read

Really interesting to get insights into how you approach the game SFraser. As you say, your tactics are not really 'unconventional' but about having the quality of player to be able to push the envelope regarding player instructions and free roles yet still retain the shape and function the formation you choose offers. You've obviously found a very successful way of playing for an elite club with elite players which suits your management style and footballing philosophy.

Personally, managing at the extreme opposite in terms of resources and footballing philosophy (Bognor vs Manchester United and collective vs individualistic philosophy), I've started to ditch free roles and limit 'risk taking' (primarily via limiting mentality) as a 'standard' from which to then vary depending on match circumstance/player abilities.

The game views my tactics as 'defensive' - TT&F would class my tactics as a defensive counterattacking approach, yet my possession rarely falls below 60% even with a team as weak as Bognor's (no loading up players from Reunion for me heh). I create plenty of chances for the standard of player I have (my best player is level appropriate in skill, the majority of my team slightly below level appropriate).

I'm using a mentality structure fairly similar to what TT&F calls the 'Benitez' or '5x5' approach. It's not truly a 5x5 approach as that invariably pins my fullbacks firmly back on the halfway line when they really should be slightly more advanced when we are attacking (ie in possession) and not just when we're counterattacking. Likewise, I prefer to have a split mentality central defensive partnership as this allows one to step forward into midfield when appropriate as well as nipping many threats in the bud. In essence I suppose the system is a 4-4-2 in defence while moving to almost a 1-3-3-3 in attack (Sacchi always said 5 in defence, 5 in attack and a linking player - people often forget that Sacchi was referring to the eleven players on the pitch, not just the ten outfield players).

Passing is slightly shorter (generally - my MCd for instance has passing set to 2 or 3!) than one would expect for the Blue Square South as I want to retain possession (I think this might be taking advantage of the match engine slightly - passing this short shouldn't really be possible on pitches in the condition I regularly face, but then I have noticed pushing the D-line up to the maximum also results in interesting side-effects for good teams) and as I retain possession, the opposition frequently tires long before I do meaning if I choose I can then up the pace of play and exploit tired opposition fullbacks later on in the match. A fairly deep defensive D-line and fairly high pressing present the opposition with the problem of how to break my defence down - little space to exploit down the channels or behind the fullbacks, little room in the centre. The opposition on the other hand has the problem of how best to close my team down - pressing hard will see triangles forming on the wing and ultimately release a winger or a striker drifting wide while standing off allows my central midfield to pull their defence out of shape for through balls into the box.

I don't allow my players much creative freedom - most of them wouldn't be able to use it appropriately anyways, and those who can will invariably mess up in the attempt. Tempo and time wasting are fairly normal as standard as I don't want to give my players too little time nor too much on the ball in general or without specific reason as they do not possess the skill or stamina to take advantage for long periods. Short spells to discomfort the opposition are useful however. Match circumstances and responding to them play a large part in how I play the game.

Ideally I'd like to be able to implement pack pressing as this would enable me to push my D-line higher and constrict space even further and allow me to regain possession even further up the pitch on a more regular basis. But such is life and something I've commented upon elsewhere.

I wouldn't consider this way of playing as being 'unconventional' in anything other than in the passing. When the team plays well, I see scintillating if simple football which overwhelms the opposition. When they play poorly, I get efficient results. When they play very poorly, I perform just above 'expectations'. I suppose it's the polar opposite of how you want your team to play but indicates, as I've said elsewhere, just how excellent the game is in terms of allowing a variety of approaches and being so sensitive to relative skill levels.

Very attacking indeed!

Might even be tempted away from EVE online for a night or two to have a look at this.

LAM

.....I have given RWB Often and TTB Often, both apparently contradictory instructions.

A) I've never really considered an tactics to be contradictory. I've kind of taken the view that its a % game on these sliders, similar to training. You have a finite amount of points to distribute and the sliders dictate how many points/% is added to RWB and TTB.

B) Assuming I am wrong above, then I still think this would work for you (and obviously it has) due to the high creative freedom you give your players. They will actualy choose which is the best option.

C) Working on one of your previous description of TTB to me, its not inconceivable that your player will dribble upto another player, commit them and then pass around them!

I used to play a system something like 4-3-2-1 (two AMC's) on '08. One AMC I would have on TTB often and one on RWB often. I always found that the RWB created sooooo much space, simply because it committed the defence, especially so when you had someone that could beat the first man. My point isnt about using this on an AMC, its about someone having the skills to draw in two and possibly even three defenders. Now imagine this player having been in a 'freerole' ie a lateral position (my intepretation of free role), he would have committed his usual marker, the one that is now marking the position on the field and possibly a third! and then with your setup, you would have one or two players running into these spaces!!!

It all makes sense.... as usual. Outstanding work, once again.

LAM

Nice thread:thup:

This is more or less what I did in 08( in a arrowless formation) and its almost like the tactical setup I use at the moment with Palace.

I use a 41221 with

• Free roles given to the lone FC and all midfielders but the MCr.
  
• HUB - Fullbacks( my favourite) and my more aggressive MC®.
  
• TTballs and RWB settings used the same as in your approach.
  
• Differs from yours as Mentality is lowered a bit on all "free role player"
  

It is interesting to see how we adopt the same offensive style, with the same solutions for problematic areas, yet with quite different formations. I would imagine that assuming a near identical style of overall play that your formation is the more structurally sound in principle. I think I will have a bash at this one and see what it offers positionally.

I then tweak it depending on opposition. Sometimes I play a very attacking, slow, normal-wide, counter attack game and sometimes I remove run with ball from my fullbacks and put them long balls,to supply my wingers on the break in a quick counter attack game.

I also use a unconventional marking system. I put my FC to tightly man-mark their more defensive MC/DMC and put my MCleft to man-mark their right-sided(important) DC. The movement of the FC( ppm moves into channels) is beautiful to watch.

I find that my preperation and in-match tweaking rarely involves altering individual instructions for the majority of my team and are usually based around selecting the pace and directness of play, width, individual centre back instructions, striker mentality and critical OI's. I tend towards a couple of key tweaks per match setup for each opponent rather than for example a set of five pre-designed tactics. This is an important point because it is very often a few key tactical choices with individual players or units within a team such as tight marking a playmaker that make all the difference to defensive stability and control of possession.

Your use of PPM's is quite clever in my opinion. Moves into Channels for a lone striker alongside multiple free roles and TTB/RWB Often is a recipe for movement across the opponents backline, as well as exploiting the critical space already existing when a front 3 meets a front 4. I think that some players may have preferred "Like to Beat Offside Trap" for a striker inbetween two centrebacks for example, to the detriment of their entire teams offensive performance. I have been training PPMs for my tactics for some time now, with a balance of Killer Balls and RWB Through Centre spread throughout my team, and the 4 forward players learning to "Place Shots" due to the fact they are all fast, agile and capable of defeating a defender with the ball at their feet.

I have seen your tactic sets around but never looked into them. I will take a look at them now, as we seem to have a fairly similar approach to tactics.

Amidst the general overall success, the problems I've faced are these:

Too much passing going astray, especially short passes. It seems to me that this is caused by the dual problem of tempo being too high and free roles putting players in the wrong places - but my analysis could be wrong. I should add that I keep time-wasting at 14-15 a la Lam's theory. Thus I'm undecided as to whether both my strikers and my wingbacks should be on free roles.

Secondly, I'm nervous about adopting your HUB tactic. My wingbacks are typically fast nippy chappies, as are my creative midfielders. They typically have STR of 10-11. Doesn't HUB require a brute of a guy who won't get knocked off the ball? I fear it would lead to further loss of possession when my players are pushed up the pitch. Or, are you saying that they would only hold the ball if unchallenged, and use their nous to get rid of it quickly if being closed down?

The HUB was my solution to the very same problem you are faced with. HUB alongside TTB/RWB Often essentially grants the player a third favoured instruction choice, which is to keep possession and play it simple. Essentially what it allows is for slow tempo, low mentality passing without having to alter his mentality or his passing. Thus you have a player instructed to play relatively aggressively and relatively quickly, to try either a decisive pass or a direct run with the ball, or instead to slow down the play and provide a slow tempo low mentality pass.

It is quite a cunning instruction within the game. Rather than have to dramatically influence the entire performance of your player to make him consider the easy option, you can choose this instruction and instead grant low mentality careful play when in possession the same level of consideration as any other specific instruction. When people say that their is a lot of overlap amongst the tactical instructions, they are not wrong!

Like all instructions that depart from mixed it comes with some risk or drawbacks, and this is that certainly it is possible for your player to dwell on the ball and concede possession, but take into account the fact that the player that is dwelling on the ball has a high mentality and aggressive instructions and is very likely to try and exploit any closing down attempt. It definately helps to have high strength for this instruction, but it is also incredibly useful to have high strength on Central Midfielders anyway. In my particular formation it also allows for my four advanced players to get into good positions and make quality runs.

Really interesting to get insights into how you approach the game SFraser.

Likewise, that was a very enjoyable read. Your highly strategic approach to defeating the challenges infront of you with inferior resources is admirable and it is a challenge I have never managed to get to grips with. I would say though that the overwhelming majority of my time with FM and CM has been at the level and type of challenge I developed my tactics to defeat and I have rarely been at the opposite end of the spectrum. I did once manage Bognor Regis for several months before it became clear that the opposite end of the spectrum is indeed the opposite end of the spectrum in terms of philosophy required for success, and that my appreciation for the offensive capabilities of the ME stood me in little stead.

As a fan and virtual manager of a top European side I have always aimed for success in combination to the replication or simulation of the craft, guile and beauty of the highest level of football. Not necessarilly goal scoring but in the ability to take risks and come out on top with the kind of individual and team play you hope to see in the big, classic matches. That is not to say I do not appreciate the immeasurable quality of the Italian and German styles and philosophy, or the commitment and work ethic of the British game, but it is always my intention and wish for these principles to be the spine that supports the body of creativity and attacking flair that is rendered all the more impressive by an appreciation of what it defeats.

I have always been a fan of the Keane and Scholes, Deschamps and Zidane, Bebeto and Romario but equally appreciate the four man midfield and its capabilities in this match engine. It is my opinion that the flat 4 man midfield is both the riskiest and most offensively flexible and potent in the current ME. Risky because of its complete lack of depth and absolute reliance upon teamwork and aggression to pose any kind of defensive barrier to the opponent, flexible and potent because of its breadth, its afore mentioned reliance upon teamwork and aggression, the players it releases for other roles, and its ability to be spun 90 degrees through any number of instructions. This however is of little relevance when the often mentioned necessity of superior quality is unavailable.

I've said elsewhere, just how excellent the game is in terms of allowing a variety of approaches and being so sensitive to relative skill levels.

I share this view, and for me personally the overwhelming majority of my enjoyment of this title comes from persuing my tactical philosophy, experimenting with new ideas and watching football unfold in the replays. The current Match Engine is a joy to watch when things are going well and there is a lot of beauty in its function.

One point I have always wanted to make is that in my opinion this game is highly accurate in many respects but users should never imagine it is entireally true to real life football and should take measures to play the game for what it is. There are many additions that can be made, but ultimately this game is a representation of football that operates by its own rules and we should appreciate that limitation and deal with the game on gameplay terms. That is not to say it should become "gamey" or "arcade" like, but that if you want to enjoy the game with each release you should play it for what it is, and then offer your suggestions for future releases. I don't think FM09 is anywhere near perfect, but if you spend the time to play the game you cannot help but notice that it is an excellent product, and occasionally beautiful to watch.

As you'll recall, we share similar ideologies of what we want to see of our teams, but the methodology varies quite a bit. The main difference is to do with the mentalities. What you're using is the lines of mentality, whereas I'm using the mentality sliders as more of positional tool. To that effect, on the formation screen I have a 4-4-2, but end up with something that's completely different when observed in the match engine. It's only really with FM09 that I've actually felt very comfortable working this way and I love the freedom and scope it gives me to make anything from minor to major changes within the same "displayed" formation.

Again I'll be an advocate for focus on player attributes with tactics being an extremely important factor. You can acheive success with my tactic, your tactic, or any that's conventional or unconventional, so long as you have a good idea of what key player attributes suit the roles set within the tactic. Do I sound like a broken record yet...

What I do find very interesting though, is the Hold up Ball use. I can tell this is a major area you're experimenting with of late, as with the free roles before. It's funny really because it's another of those tickbox instructions that can be very influencial, especially perhaps when used in some positions people may think unorthodox. For example, have you ever tried it with centre-backs? It's something I've toyed with a little and, mainly (you remember my defensive triangle?) to maintain even more steady and controlled play at the back, before one of those three points in the triangle releases a pass to one of the more offensive players. One thing I did spot, though the composure of the defenders and defensive minded midfielder was a factor in my opinion, was that HUB on the centre-backs could lead to drawing opponents onto them and opening up space in positions they've vacated to press the ball. Yes, it's another potentially risky approach, but with the right players, can be very powerful and controlling indeed.

The route this had lead me down is to re-evaluate some of the "types" of central defenders I'll consider using. Often before, I would look at the stereotypical "big fella" at the back who's tall, strong, good in the air and powerful in the tackle. Using HUB with central defenders, I now look towards smaller guys who although still of considerably physically strong attributes, have more technical ability and can actually "play a bit". Somewhat like a good solid central midfielder, who just happens to be playing at the back and also perhaps a little like having a pair of sweepers of old, defenders who clearly could "play a bit". (I actually remember the suggestions towards the end of his career that Bryan Robson would have made a superb sweeper or more technically gifted defender.)

Another good discussion that I've enjoyed reading and am sure will continue to do so further as it grows. It's discussions like these that I find present the real tactical gems and opens the mind to new and interesting ways to look at aspects of tactics that one might previously have either misinterpreted or simply been afraid to use, or even just chose to ignore.

Very interesting stuff

Just reading this has got me wanting to play FM again, just to try some of the ideas.

Sadly, I'm not sure I have players technically gifted enough for an attempt at DC's HUB, so that's one for the future

Waiting in antici.....

.....pation

Is that a reference to the Rocky Horror Picture Show?

The HUB was my solution to the very same problem you are faced with. HUB alongside TTB/RWB Often essentially grants the player a third favoured instruction choice, which is to keep possession and play it simple. Essentially what it allows is for slow tempo, low mentality passing without having to alter his mentality or his passing. Thus you have a player instructed to play relatively aggressively and relatively quickly, to try either a decisive pass or a direct run with the ball, or instead to slow down the play and provide a slow tempo low mentality pass.

It is quite a cunning instruction within the game. Rather than have to dramatically influence the entire performance of your player to make him consider the easy option, you can choose this instruction and instead grant low mentality careful play when in possession the same level of consideration as any other specific instruction. When people say that their is a lot of overlap amongst the tactical instructions, they are not wrong!

Like all instructions that depart from mixed it comes with some risk or drawbacks, and this is that certainly it is possible for your player to dwell on the ball and concede possession, but take into account the fact that the player that is dwelling on the ball has a high mentality and aggressive instructions and is very likely to try and exploit any closing down attempt. It definately helps to have high strength for this instruction, but it is also incredibly useful to have high strength on Central Midfielders anyway. In my particular formation it also allows for my four advanced players to get into good positions and make quality runs.

Fascinating. Okay, I'll give it a go. My first-choice wingbacks have STR of 14-15 and my back-ups 10-11. I'll try with both and compare the results. My midfielders can mostly take care of themselves; until now the more defensive-minded had HUB only, but I'll try both. I recall that you have that talented piece of balsa-wood named Buonanotte - with his STR do you give him HUB instructions??

Finally, can you clarify this point:

"try and exploit any closing down attempt".

If I have 'close down' as an OI, how can the opponent exploit the instruction?

Thanks in advance

by passing the ball into the space you have created by trying to close said player down,for me closing down is a very confusing part of the ME,i have tried setting influential players to be closed down but they can just manipulate the instruction to there own advantage.as soon as my player moves out of his position to close a player down he has left a rather large pocket of space that can now be taken up by an opposition player who can now pick up an easy pass.

im finding that a high defensive line with certain players on tight marking does the trick.i always find that the scout report will tell me which players need "looking after".

I have seen your tactic sets around but never looked into them. I will take a look at them now, as we seem to have a fairly similar approach to tactics.

You might be disappointed if doing so....the uploaded sets use a different approach.

what passing instructions do you have for team instructions, or do these vary according to position?

Sounds like a great tactic.

Wondering how best i can incorporate this into my unconventional lineup of

GK

SW(farrow)

DC DC

MC(barrow) MC

AML AMR

STR STR STR

what passing instructions do you have for team instructions, or do these vary according to position?

Sounds like a great tactic.

Wondering how best i can incorporate this into my unconventional lineup of

GK

SW(farrow)

DC DC

MC(barrow) MC

AML AMR

STR STR STR

Arghhh.... three at the back!!

I've never managed to get any formation with three at the back to work as well as I would like... ever!

I just stick with my comfort zone of four at the back. I would of course love to hear any suggestions for a tactically sound and solid three man defence (preferably without the need for wing-backs), because I've always loved the idea of an "extra" man in support or attack, given my preference for overloading attacking tactics and formations.

Arghhh.... three at the back!!

I've never managed to get any formation with three at the back to work as well as I would like... ever!

I just stick with my comfort zone of four at the back. I would of course love to hear any suggestions for a tactically sound and solid three man defence (preferably without the need for wing-backs), because I've always loved the idea of an "extra" man in support or attack, given my preference for overloading attacking tactics and formations.

Heath, if you like i can post up my tactic and see what you think. About to post it in my el-tel-tactics hq thread anyway.

Fascinating. Okay, I'll give it a go. My first-choice wingbacks have STR of 14-15 and my back-ups 10-11. I'll try with both and compare the results. My midfielders can mostly take care of themselves; until now the more defensive-minded had HUB only, but I'll try both. I recall that you have that talented piece of balsa-wood named Buonanotte - with his STR do you give him HUB instructions??

Finally, can you clarify this point:

"try and exploit any closing down attempt".

If I have 'close down' as an OI, how can the opponent exploit the instruction?

Thanks in advance

The HUB instruction for more defensive players is not meant to operate in exactly the same way as HUB for a Striker or Target Man. A Striker with HUB will almost always be challenged and will be required to have high Strength to hold off those challenges. The ball will be played quickly to the Striker and he will attempt to keep it untill players get forward in support.

The principle is the same with HUB for more defensive players but in general the context is different. A player inside my own half with HUB will usually have more space than the Striker does, and will not have to wrestle with the opponent. The HUB instruction in this context tells the player to take control of the ball and look for more considered support. He will not generally be close marked, and though perhaps closed down it will generally be by a single winger for a reasonable distance. The player will not go looking for a physical challenge, he will instead consider holding onto the ball and keeping possession before playing a simple pass to a supporting player.

The reason why I use this in my formation is that I want to keep the high mentalities and aggressive attacking instructions for my fullbacks, but in certain contexts such as the one above with the sole closing down winger, these instructions encourage him to try a highly unlikely 50 yard through ball from inside my own half. I would prefer him to play a pass that would resemble low mentality, low tempo, high timewasting and short passing in this context, but I do not want to give him low mentality, low tempo, high time wasting and short passing.

The HUB instruction essentially condenses this style of play into a single tickbox instruction that becomes a possible option, rather than an overall playstyle.

As for Buonanotte his situation is different. He plays higher up the pitch where there are more opponents including proper defenders, he is a fast and energetic dribbler with a great eye for a pass, and his strength makes it almost impossible for him to win any kind of contact tackle. Because he has no FWR giving him HUB would halt his advance for no overall benefit such as more time to play an easier pass, and it would encourage physical challenges which he would invariably lose. Buonanotte is in my team a direct dribbler and final ball player and HUB 90% of the time would not enhance his contribution. However it is still an option in certain situations.

The exploitation of closing down was mentioned above. By giving a CM with RWB/TTB Often and good passing the HUB instruction the opponent is put in a difficult position of either closing down the CM or defending against the runs made behind him and encouraging my CM forward. It is possible to do both but this requires an opponent midfielder of immense mental quality, and my CM can simply pass the ball to the other CM or down the flanks to a Fullback.

The key to the HUB is to consider it as an option that can produce composed play in players with otherwise aggressive instructions. For some players it is a good idea, for others not so good, and it depends alot on the overall playstyle and tactical situation in your match.

What I do find very interesting though, is the Hold up Ball use. I can tell this is a major area you're experimenting with of late, as with the free roles before. It's funny really because it's another of those tickbox instructions that can be very influencial, especially perhaps when used in some positions people may think unorthodox.

Yes, I have been finding those tickboxes to be highly influential in my overall tactical approach. Perhaps I should not write a thread with each new experiment but ultimately my point here is that you can play your 4-4-1-1 with a Free Role AMC and a HUB Striker or you can play something entireally different altogether, and these more "unconventional" tactics do not really get a lot of discussion, even if they do get used regularly.

For example, have you ever tried it with centre-backs? It's something I've toyed with a little and, mainly (you remember my defensive triangle?) to maintain even more steady and controlled play at the back, before one of those three points in the triangle releases a pass to one of the more offensive players. One thing I did spot, though the composure of the defenders and defensive minded midfielder was a factor in my opinion, was that HUB on the centre-backs could lead to drawing opponents onto them and opening up space in positions they've vacated to press the ball. Yes, it's another potentially risky approach, but with the right players, can be very powerful and controlling indeed.

I havn't actually, but I think I will give that a go. I have managed to eliminate a lot of the raking 70 yard passes from deep down near my fullback position, but their is still the occasional Vidic screamer to the opponents corner flag.

That suggestion has actually given me some food for thought regarding giving my highly aggressive attacking formation a rock solid bedrock of slow and careful buildup from within my own half without compromising their attacking intent higher up the pitch. I like the idea of 6 HUB on my 6 most defensive players and 6 Free Roles on my 2 MCs and four advanced players. I will have to give that some serious attention.

Using HUB with central defenders, I now look towards smaller guys who although still of considerably physically strong attributes, have more technical ability and can actually "play a bit".

The Cannavaro type? He has always been one of my favourite defenders for his lack of height but immense intelligence and presence in the box. What competition was it a few years back that he practically single handedly defended against the rest of the tournament? It was a shame to see him at Madrid in the European Cup this season. Great choice to leave.

EDIT: I would share the apprehension of using 3 at the back myself. Perhaps some of the better tacticians can get it to work but it gives me nightmares.

do you use player instructions for the GK?

Please explain what you meant exactly by the following statements:

"Mentalities and closing down and tackling of Centre Backs to be set according to opponent".

How do i setup my centre backs?

"Identical mentalities for strikers, to be set according to opponent"

please tell me how exactly you would set up according to various different types of opponent.

Also do you use playmakers, target men, counter attacking, tight marking etc

Thanks in advance

do you use global passing, closing down, tackling etc settings and if so how exactly do you have them set?

Heath, if you like i can post up my tactic and see what you think. About to post it in my el-tel-tactics hq thread anyway.

I will take a look at it when you've posted the info in your thread (if you've not already done so of course )

I actually do download lots of tactics posted in the forums so I can take a look. I might not post in the actual thread my thoughts or opinions, as I consider it might be considered hijacking the thread sometimes, especially since I'm a mod now. There's people who are far superior to me tactically in these forums, but simply because I'm a mod now, some people place more weight on what I might post, which should never be the case.

I like to get involved with some of SFraser's posts in T&TT however, because he's initiated some very good discussions. We all may have different ideas, styles or opinions, but a good discussion is about sharing our views whilst also appreciating the views of others.

SFraser - Your HUB ideas have equally given me more food for thought and I will now blame you personally for taking me away from my Granada CF save temporarily to fire up another "experimental" save.

I've also just installed Mount & Blade on my system, which I was getting ready to play tonight, but now I'll be "experimenting" tactically!

I will take a look at it when you've posted the info in your thread (if you've not already done so of course )

I actually do download lots of tactics posted in the forums so I can take a look. I might not post in the actual thread my thoughts or opinions, as I consider it might be considered hijacking the thread sometimes, especially since I'm a mod now. There's people who are far superior to me tactically in these forums, but simply because I'm a mod now, some people place more weight on what I might post, which should never be the case.

I like to get involved with some of SFraser's posts in T&TT however, because he's initiated some very good discussions. We all may have different ideas, styles or opinions, but a good discussion is about sharing our views whilst also appreciating the views of others.

SFraser - Your HUB ideas have equally given me more food for thought and I will now blame you personally for taking me away from my Granada CF save temporarily to fire up another "experimental" save.

I've also just installed Mount & Blade on my system, which I was getting ready to play tonight, but now I'll be "experimenting" tactically!

OK cool, your always welcome to add your insight on any of my tactics mate, i appreciate the feedback from everyone.

Details are now posted up of my sweeper tactic, see my op in my tactics thread.

do you use player instructions for the GK?

Yes I do. His Communication, Anticipation, Decisions and Teamwork are all excellent so I let him play as a sweeper keeper by keeping his mentality neutral and increasing his closing down to first notch of whole pitch. This allows for his own decision making ability to be free from bias and govern his game.

I also have him set to Defender Collect and Right Back distribution, but allow him neutral Creative Freedom and Mixed Passing so that he can make use of Kicking of 15 and his intelligent Decision making if he chooses.

There is the occasional close call with him rushing out to clear balls, and the occasional aimless punt upfield, but I have not seen him make a mistake in rushing out to clear the ball since his first game for me 8 months ago. Since then he has been excellent.

"Identical mentalities for strikers, to be set according to opponent"

please tell me how exactly you would set up according to various different types of opponent.

This is fundamentally a judgement call based upon your analysis of the oppositions defence. Myself and others have commented that the nature of mentality is such that individual high risk Decisions can often be the least risky option in certain contexts, and individual low risk choices can often be the riskiest options in other contexts. A good example of this is the low mentality Centre Back choosing the low risk option of a long punt upfield, which concedes possession and has minimal likelyhood of freeing a Striker. It would appear to the manager that this raking 50 yard through ball is a high risk option and a poor Decision, but from the defenders point of view it was the lowest risk defensive choice. Likewise a Striker may have the highest chance of success if he receives the ball and with his first touch attempts to defeat his marker, then runs forward with the ball at his feet. Should he choose the lower risk option of playing with his back to the defender and playing a simple ball to a midfielder, he may get tackled and even injured. Ofcourse if he is not being tightly marked and the defenders are holding an organised line between the Striker and the goal the entire risk context changes and the simple option becomes the best option.

My Strikers play as a front two and my midfield plays a midfield four so when winning the ball in my own half I have limited initial support for my strikers. If I can win the ball in my opponents half that situation changes as I have a high D-Line and multiple players already in support. My strikers have Free Roles so getting into position to receive the ball is not a problem, it is their usage of the ball in conjuction with where they receive it, how the opponent intends to defend against me, and how my own team are playing under those conditions that is critical.

In short if I expect to be faced with a packed defence and to have to exploit space I would lower the mentalities of my strikers. If I expect to face heavy closing down, hard tackling, inferior defenders or a risk taking opposition formation I would attempt to exploit their players and choose high mentalities for my strikers.

Please explain what you meant exactly by the following statements:

"Mentalities and closing down and tackling of Centre Backs to be set according to opponent".

How do i setup my centre backs?

In a very similar method to what was described above. The difference being that you are attempting to defeat threats posed by opposition strikers while playing with a fairly high risk formation, and your first line of defence has already been breached. What you are doing here is attempting to construct a last line of defence for when your high pressing game in midfield has been breached and the opponent has played a ball past your midfield. In my formation it is essentially a two man system that does one of two things. It either defeats the threat early by winning the ball back or catching opponents off-side, or it attempts to buy time for other players to get back into a position to assist with defending deeper inside your own half as two lines of four.

For the vast majority of sides I face a simple flat back "two" of equivelant mentalities playing the off-side trap is sufficient to defeat through balls and to win tackles as soon as the opponent receives the ball. Should he run from deep then high Closing Down and hard tackling on one Centre Back combined to low Closing Down and light Tackling on the other will defeat that threat as well, by channeling the player towards the aggressive ball winner or down the flank. However when facing something more challenging than a long punt upfield or 3/5 man midfield playing in a lone striker then you have to adapt your Centre Backs tactical system to something more suited to the threat in hand. There are two real options here. One is to increase the Mentality of one Centre Back while decreasing the mentality of the other and to essentially present a Stopper and Sweeper system that sits in between your two Fullbacks. As I said before I employ Fullbacks that are more akin to technically skilled Centre Backs, and this will present a Shield of 3 hard pressing, hard tackling, aggressive Centre Backs with a Sweeper behind them. The other option is to decrease the Mentalities, Closing Down and Tackling of both Centre Backs and attempt to channel the play down the flanks while maintaing a defensive Central Position, untill such time as your Fullbacks and Midfield can get back into position.

Also do you use playmakers, target men, counter attacking, tight marking etc

My playmaker is the Central Midfielder that has highest ratings for Off The Ball movement, Teamwork, Passing and Creativity, or whoever has the best combination. I generally do not use a Target Man unless the oppositions defence is exploitable by pace and quick transfers of play. Counter Attacking has its uses in specific games against high quality opponents where I am required to completely restructure my entire defence. Tight marking is very useful on key players and throughout the variations in Centre Back tactics.

do you use global passing, closing down, tackling etc settings and if so how exactly do you have them set?

I have passing set to mixed for almost my entire team, but will alter it for my Centre Backs and Fullbacks depending upon performances and opponents. Closing Down is high across the board for everyone barring Centre Backs, as I find this produces a very solid pressing midfield unit. Tackling is invariably hard barring usually a single Centre Back as I have no problems with a war of attrition and do not under any circumstances want opponents to go past my players. In combination with the amount of Strength in my Midfield this usually results in a high rate of succesful tackles even for players with very low tackling. For example Wayne Rooney has in 24 league games as a CM succeeded in an average of 5.23 tackles per game, conceding 51 fouls which is around 2 per game.

SFraser - Your HUB ideas have equally given me more food for thought and I will now blame you personally for taking me away from my Granada CF save temporarily to fire up another "experimental" save.

I've also just installed Mount & Blade on my system, which I was getting ready to play tonight, but now I'll be "experimenting" tactically!

I have that game. You should fire it up and play it, it is quite cool.

What creative freedom settings do you have for each position?

Have tried recreating your tactic to test:

please take a look at my recreation: http://www.zshare.net/download/60868204247e2639/

Is this correct?

reason i have setup cb's like that is to cater for the big man little man striker pairing most teams play. I have also added HUB on cb's as per the conversation you were having here.

Please give advice if i have not set up properly.

I have noticed that often the opposing striker gets a clear run at my goal via a through ball, long ball or high ball beating my defensive line. How should i stop this?

I like some of the attacking play i am seeing though. Great work.

I like some of the attacking play i am seeing though. Great work.

What creative freedom settings do you have for each position?

If you like the attacking play you are seeing now, try these Creative Freedom settings:

Centre Backs on middle.

Central Midfielder and Fullbacks on first notch of Much.

Wingers and Strikers set to Maximum.

I have noticed that often the opposing striker gets a clear run at my goal via a through ball, long ball or high ball beating my defensive line. How should i stop this?

Because you are playing with two at the back your entire defence is susceptible to a lack of pace, any sort of positional and anticipation deficiency, or low motivation. If you lack pace in your defenders you need to employ the off-side trap and keep tweaking mentalities untill it is rock solid, as well as employ a sweeper-keeper if you have someone with the right mental attributes.

If you have pace then you want to set your fastest defender to low closing down and possibly a low mentality so that he takes up defensive positions and does not commit to tackles when faced with a runner. In short you want him to make a bee-line for the edge of the box and get inbetween the striker and the goal, without commiting to any tackles.

Your number one concern should be setting up the off-side trap.

Brilliant, absolutely brilliant.

So now I'm joining you guys in thinking through the use of HUB for DCs. SFraser, you have Rio Ferdinand presumably - great mental attributes and cool on the ball - a decent passer and not the worst dribbler. Would you give him HUB?

I play with 3DCs myself and find it pretty successful. If I'm faced with 2 oppo strikers, the left and right ones will close down and man-mark, with the middle guy acting as a 'front sweeper' on zonal. I'm thinking of the left and right guys on HUB when in possession, taking their time to pick out a pass, or simply slipping the ball to the middle guy if under pressure.

Against one striker the situation ought to be tastier - central guy on man-mark/close down and the left and right ones with space and leisure to HUB and pick out a juicy pass. I'm nervous that just one mistake dwelling on the ball could be fatal, but I'll try it and see.

FWIW my keeper has brilliant mental attributes and is perfectly set-up for a sweeper-keeper. I wish I knew what his tackling attribute is; there's been a few heart stopping moment when he's come out for 50/50 balls and so far has always won those tackles.

If you like the attacking play you are seeing now, try these Creative Freedom settings:

Centre Backs on middle.

Central Midfielder and Fullbacks on first notch of Much.

Wingers and Strikers set to Maximum.

Because you are playing with two at the back your entire defence is susceptible to a lack of pace, any sort of positional and anticipation deficiency, or low motivation. If you lack pace in your defenders you need to employ the off-side trap and keep tweaking mentalities untill it is rock solid, as well as employ a sweeper-keeper if you have someone with the right mental attributes.

If you have pace then you want to set your fastest defender to low closing down and possibly a low mentality so that he takes up defensive positions and does not commit to tackles when faced with a runner. In short you want him to make a bee-line for the edge of the box and get inbetween the striker and the goal, without commiting to any tackles.

Your number one concern should be setting up the off-side trap.

thanks for your advice,

my gk is setup as sweeper keeper, i have akinfeev.

my dc's are sakho / chiellini as my big strong header type and fazio / leo as my pacey DC.

i have my pacey cb on lower mentality by two notches on three with lower closing down, my big dc on 5 mentality with higher closing down. I am currently not playing offside trap.

How would you set this up with these players in 2012?

played two games using offside trap and with changed creative freedom settings and my cb settings as stated above. Scored 7 conceded 0, infact in both games the opposition did not have a single attempt at goal. WOW. lol

played two games using offside trap and with changed creative freedom settings and my cb settings as stated above. Scored 7 conceded 0, infact in both games the opposition did not have a single attempt at goal. WOW. lol

Genetic Deviant,

could you give me a downloadlink for the tactic that you're using?

I think i did something wrong because i have some aweful results...

Thanx

SFRASER, I must commend you on your work, excellent tactic. absolutely awesome.

An Unconventional Tactic? I don't think so. let me explain.......

Many of your "unconventional" aspects actually are only unconventional in the way we, the player, percieve to be the effects of certain instructions within the fm match engine. Which are in actual fact much deeper than we think. So in other words the instructions are unconventional in football manager regarding common theories, practices and opinion. However in actual fact IRL your unconventional aspects make perfect sense and you can see this happening IRL regularly.

"Unconventional Aspects".

"Six Free Roles, all four midfielders and both strikers" unusual to have six granted however Barcelona IRL play with five (Iniesta, Xavi, Messi, Henry, Etoo)

"4 HUB, both central midfielders and both fullbacks" A lot of the time you see CM's and FB's keep hold of th ball waiting for space to open up before playing a pass, often caused by opposition players moving towards the ball in an effort to close down.

"TTB Often and RWB Often for ALL players barring Centre Backs". Again think Barcelona IRL.

"FWR Mixed for ALL players barring Fullbacks. No one in midfield or upfront has FWR Often or Rarely" Basically your telling the players to run with ball when the opportunity presents itself, nothing unusual there.

"Identical mentalities for strikers, to be set according to opponent" think Owen and Martins upfront for Newcatle (when both fit of course lol)

"Maximum D-Line irrespective of opponent" Makes sense if using offside trap.

"Power, positioning, and passing ability at Fullback position instead of Pace" think england in 90's with Pearce and Neville, or a more modern full backs with these attributes, Lescott and Richards.

"All Forward players are fast, agile and technically gifted" Again Barcelona spring to mind.

The point im trying to make is that this is only unconventional due to the rules, guidelines that we, the player have almost set in stone and treat as law. In real life these do not apply.

In actual fact the game is far deeper than we give it credit for, we as players think we know everything about how the game works, what effect each instruction and tactical slider has. Clearly we do not know it all, if we did we would probably be real life football managers.

really want to implement some of / most of your theories into my sweeper tactic:

GK

SW

DC DC

MCd MC

AML AMR

STR STR STR

How would you do this? What advice would you give?

Am trying to edit my tactic using the above theory. Was originally similar in fairness, with 5 people on free roles and 3 holding up ball. What I found as important for my previous tactic though was having the full backs with fairly short passing. Also I played narrow and gave my wingers cross ball rarely. Because my wingers swapped positions this means that they cut inside and played through balls, or gave it to the full backs who then crossed it. Also found it important to keep defensive line at its highest.

With the tweaked tactic I'm in my first game and currently 3-0 up at half time.

Am trying to edit my tactic using the above theory. Was originally similar in fairness, with 5 people on free roles and 3 holding up ball. What I found as important for my previous tactic though was having the full backs with fairly short passing. Also I played narrow and gave my wingers cross ball rarely. Because my wingers swapped positions this means that they cut inside and played through balls, or gave it to the full backs who then crossed it. Also found it important to keep defensive line at its highest.

With the tweaked tactic I'm in my first game and currently 3-0 up at half time.

Would you give a downloadlink for your tactic?

I would like to give it a go

Thanx

So now I'm joining you guys in thinking through the use of HUB for DCs. SFraser, you have Rio Ferdinand presumably - great mental attributes and cool on the ball - a decent passer and not the worst dribbler. Would you give him HUB?

Yeah I have been doing that. Infact I have been giving my entire backline HUB in the last 6-8 matches alongside knocking up timewasting from middle-low to neutral against tougher sides, and the added composure this brings to my least technically capable players and my initial build up play has entrenched this little experiment as a key component of my tactic. However as you know my preference is always for looking to improve my attacking play, even if that means composing my defensive players, and it is in the ball usage of my Central Midfielders in an attacking context that I am most pleased with the effects of HUB.

With my instructions you can literally observe in the match replay how a Midfielder driving through the space in the centre of the pitch actively considers the HUB instruction with every touch of the ball. If a midfielder runs forward with the ball into space and an opponent midfielder moves into position to intercept, then in the past my midfielder would generally choose to take him on. Now however he is likely to simply stop, put his foot on the ball and play it simple to the other Central Midfielder. My intention with RWB Often on my CM players has never been to take on the opponents and score goals, but to drive forward into dangerous positions when space appears. When my midfielder reaches that space, rather than continue his run past a player or along the backline or down the flanks etc. he will simply put his foot on the ball and hold it up and look for a pass.

Likewise the Centre Backs and Full Backs are more inclined to knock it about at the back between themselves, and have much higher pass completion rates. This includes Vidic whose distribution has improved dramatically without altering his general positional play and risk taking or enforcing a particular passing style upon him. I find that the weak link in this chain is often the goalkeeper who will make the occasional clearance, so I may yet give him a HUB instruction.

I play with 3DCs myself and find it pretty successful. If I'm faced with 2 oppo strikers, the left and right ones will close down and man-mark, with the middle guy acting as a 'front sweeper' on zonal. I'm thinking of the left and right guys on HUB when in possession, taking their time to pick out a pass, or simply slipping the ball to the middle guy if under pressure.

Against one striker the situation ought to be tastier - central guy on man-mark/close down and the left and right ones with space and leisure to HUB and pick out a juicy pass. I'm nervous that just one mistake dwelling on the ball could be fatal, but I'll try it and see.

With HUB and under pressure at the back they key is to have a free option on the flanks or through the middle. I played against Inter the other day who had a highly aggressive line up and pushed players onto my fullbacks and my central midfielders. This was a source of immense problems for me in terms of distribution and the only simple solution was to lose the HUB, play the counter attack, give my wingers FWR Often and set them to target man with run onto ball instructions.

I don't find that defenders tend to dwell on the ball with HUB instructions, but what I do find is that without sufficient support they will revert to their tendency to punt it long. To get the most out of your HUB instructions on your CB's you need those simple forward or sideways options. A good defenders natural attributes, such as Anticipation, Decisions and Teamwork should work to limit the poor choices of ball usage, even if the actual execution is poor. This is what to watch out for. It will not be the choice that is poor, but the execution. Definately worth considering if you are up against some energiser bunny strikers that play like fortune tellers. Most of the time though a defender that is put under any kind of pressure, whether distant or close will simply knock it back to the keeper.

FWIW my keeper has brilliant mental attributes and is perfectly set-up for a sweeper-keeper. I wish I knew what his tackling attribute is; there's been a few heart stopping moment when he's come out for 50/50 balls and so far has always won those tackles.

I would imagine that it is not his tackling that is at work here, but his brilliant mental attributes. A challenge like that from a keeper is akin to a first time shot when man marked, or getting to 50-50 ball first in midfield and playing a first time defence splitting pass. That is ofcourse if you are talking about him clearing the ball and not actually going in for a sliding tackle and coming out the other side with the ball at his feet. Even if he is actually tackling players, his mental attributes will probably account for 75% or more of his actual ability and success. Anticipation, Bravery, Composure, Concentration, Decisions and Determination would be my bets for his ability to win the ball, with his tackling attribute and I assume a low Aggression accounting for the fact he doesn't get booked or sent off.

As I said in another thread, Mental attributes account for far more within every action than is at first obvious. I have a Central Midfielder with 5 assists and 81% pass completion in 8 games in the European Cup, with TTB Often and High Mentality. His Passing attribute is 14. However he has Anticipation 16, Creativity 16, Decisions 17 and Teamwork 19 meaning that his reading of the game and decision making more than makes up for his inferior pass execution, even under aggressive instructions. A year ago I would have taken one look at his Passing and Creativity and dismissed him as far below the quality required in the European Cup, or even in my First Team in general, but these attributes taken together simply define his ability to spot difficult passes and the accuracy and weight of his delivery. They do not in any way define his appreciation of the context of the game, his ability to read unfolding events, or to make intelligent decisions and these are the critical attributes for a Central Midfielder in possession of the ball.

played two games using offside trap and with changed creative freedom settings and my cb settings as stated above. Scored 7 conceded 0, infact in both games the opposition did not have a single attempt at goal. WOW. lol

Good to hear you are having some fun. Those Creative Freedom instructions are experimental and may yet come crashing down, but I find that setting them across layers of my team proves to have a superior overall effect than giving an individual player a high individual Creative Freedom. Previously giving one Winger maximum CF or both wingers maximum CF was a complete failure. Giving my entire forward 4 maximum CF seems to have stepped their attacking play up a gear.

There was one move in a recent game of mine where after 16 passes involving my goalkeeper, four defenders and both midfielders the ball was played out to my right winger who cut inside onto his left foot around the corner of the box, shimmied past a midfielder and curled a chipped pass to my midfielder 25 yards from goal in a central area who absolutely hammered it into the top corner. In the same game I scored another where the opponent was tackled 30 yards from my goal, and two short passes and two through balls later my striker placed the ball into the bottom corner of the opponents goal from between two defenders inside the box.

You need to remember the influence of Gelling in your teams performance. Gelling will impact upon the stability of your defence and off-side trap as well as the inter-play and accuracy of passes of your midfielders and strikers. Low gelling will very often see a good through ball going in the opposite direction to a good run; the teamwork and timing and vision and anticipation was there, but the precise judgement of each others decisions was missing between those two players. Eventually this kind of thing will be removed from your team, and when it is removed it will have a massive impact on the overall performance of a risk taking formation and playstyle.

Would you give a downloadlink for your tactic?

I would like to give it a go

Thanx

The tactic will only work with creative teams, though I tested it with Villa and Everton and seemed to do alright (top 6). Want to tweak it some more though before uploading, using the above theory and just test a couple of other things like how my wingers respond if I ask my team to play through the middle. Also could use a more defensive version as it is susceptible away from home with teams like Everton and Villa, though I'm 19 wins on the trot with Arsenal.

Hello sfraser im reading all threads you wrote!!All fantastic!respect to you:).Plz can u give me link to try this tactic?coz im from greece and my english arent good:( . So i cant understand easily,some i cant understand by no means!plz give me link!!

bye:) i hope you will give me

should tackling on gk be on easy or as per team instructions set to hard? Also what mentality should he be? Would setting him to a higher mentality make him rush out more as a sweeper keeper?

I'm very interested in this. For I, being the "rook" to FM, chose Real Madrid. Its fun, but I'll probably find a new team first. My past games haven't been much fun, because I had been, how do you say, tactically deficient. But this seems like a great tactic. But what boggles my mind is how some people are very strict on creative freedom, while it seems yours, and I may be wrong here, allows players to do what they think is best, you trust them. This may get a bit off topic, but why do some people, even if they have a really good team, like to be super authoritative?

And, would you take a person like Tevez over a more technically gifted player like Zlatan, just for his mental stats?

should tackling on gk be on easy or as per team instructions set to hard? Also what mentality should he be? Would setting him to a higher mentality make him rush out more as a sweeper keeper?

Despite what I said about my keeper, who HAS won 50/50 tackles twice, generally keepers can't tackle, so I'd go for 'easy'. High mentality won't make him rush out - you need a good 'rushing out' attribute plus acceleration, anticipation and decisions.

Despite what I said about my keeper, who HAS won 50/50 tackles twice, generally keepers can't tackle, so I'd go for 'easy'. High mentality won't make him rush out - you need a good 'rushing out' attribute plus acceleration, anticipation and decisions.

I though it did. High mentality (1 click lower than VC's) would make him concentrate and being a 4th or 5th defender? Also combined with closing down

of course.

I though it did. High mentality (1 click lower than VC's) would make him concentrate and being a 4th or 5th defender? Also combined with closing down

of course.

Higher Mentality will encourage him to take more risks so it is conceivable that a Higher Mentality would encourage more rushing out to clear the ball. However what you are doing here is causing your Goalkeeper to evaluate the situation and favour the higher risk options, so when he does rush out under a High Mentality it is because he has been setup to favour riskier behaviour.

The critical question as to whether these instructions actually improve a Goalkeepers performance is whether or not the Goalkeeper is deficient in his mental appreciation of the game. If a Goalkeeper has high Anticipation and Decisions specifically then I would tend to avoid influencing his Mentality, as a neutral Keeper that is highly intelligent will play according to his own appreciation of the game.

As for Closing Down and Tackling I have Closing Down set to First Notch of Often as my Goalkeeper is excellent at One-on-Ones, and I have Tackling set to Hard so that once he commits to Rushing Out he is equally committed to Tackling for the ball. Very little point in having a Goalkeeper Rush Out to the byline and then pull out of a challenge. However these are instructions I have not as yet gone into the process of fine tuning in the presence of obvious mistakes. They are team settings left unaltered that as yet have made no obvious influence on errors.

But what boggles my mind is how some people are very strict on creative freedom, while it seems yours, and I may be wrong here, allows players to do what they think is best, you trust them. This may get a bit off topic, but why do some people, even if they have a really good team, like to be super authoritative?

This is a very interesting question. I think that the game itself channels players into the mindset of super authority and away from player Creativity and Freedom as a source of success, and the information and guides available reinforce this perception. We have all been warned against Flair and Creative Freedom by the ingame tips on the loading screen, and it is perhaps fair to say that a great majority of clubs in the major Leagues loaded in the average game require an increasingly stricter approach.

I think what is most interesting though is that in all the years of the FM versions of this brand, and with the quantity of users plying their trades with the so called "Big Teams" just how little experimentation there has been, or perhaps more fairly how little discussion there has been on, on ultra Creative and individualistic tactics. This thread is probably the only thread on the first page of this particular forum to utilise maximum CF on any player, and I use it on four.

One aspect that is certainly important is the over-complication of the simplistic and the attempt to custom design and micro-manage actions and moves that are a natural part of playing football, in conjuction to a failure to appreciate the tactical consequences and tactical necessities of such instructions. The FCd creator and FCa striker partnership is a perfect example of this kind. From the many topics authored on how to setup this partnership it is clear that the simple principle of one forward playing a through ball to his partner is both vastly overcomplicated and vastly misunderstood. Untill users realise that the FCd is not meant to be behind the FCa but is meant to play alongside him then they are battling with the completely wrong problem. When you have two strikers playing side by side there is no shortage of inter-play and link-up. Viewing this situation from literally the wrong angle produces more micro-management in an attempt to resolve its deficiencies, which produces increasing failure and impotence, which results in further complication.

This is where the usage of Creative Freedom and Trust through relatively Neutral instructions comes into play. It is not an expert tactical system that destroys the opponent through surgical dissection of their weaknesses, it is a Tactical System that removes my inferior appreciation of tactical issues from burdening my players during the course of a match, and this is where I can observe my players in action and learn what it is that they do that brings success. With players of the right quality this tactical system of freedom and education for the manager can be developed into a tactical system whereby the player's footballing intelligence and ability, with simple guidance from the manager, defeats the opposition because they have the natural ability to defeat the opposition in the first place.

And, would you take a person like Tevez over a more technically gifted player like Zlatan, just for his mental stats?

If I had to choose one it would be Ibrahimovic because his Technical abilities compliment his Mental abilities, however without hesitation my Striker of choice is Sergio Aguero because the correlation of his Technical to Mental to Physical is as close to perfect as you can find. Likewise if it were not for between 3 and 7 absent attribute points, Dimitar Berbatov would be the greatest Forward on the planet.

The impact of Mental Attributes when sufficiently supported by Technical and Physical Attributes is quite profound. I have been playing for several seasons now with a front two of Aguero and Cristiano Ronaldo. Both players take to the pitch with identical instructions, Free Roles and high-max Creative Freedom. Over the course of my career Sergio Aguero has consistently achieved the highest Assists-per-game ratio of both strikers while Ronaldo consistently achieves the highest Goals-per-game ratio. Mental attributes in conjuction to PPMs have automatically and naturally developed a creator-goalscorer partnership amongst these players. I didn't have to do anything more than allow them to play football.

You have to admit when faced with this kind of situation that FM09 is an incredibly clever simulation of football. The very first day I saw the new match engine I knew it would become my favourite version.

sfraser can u give me link plz of tactic?

Sure thing, here it is.

4-4-2 Control

A couple of rules to follow when using it:

1. Make sure your best Centre Back is in the first Centre Back slot, on the right hand side of the defence.

2. Put your most defensive CM in the first CM slot on the right hand side with your playmaker/attacking CM on the left.

3. Put your best Long Shot CM to long shots mixed.

4. Put your right footed winger on the left flank and your left footed winger on the right flank.

5. Setup your playmaker list like this. First is your main CM playmaker, next is your best winger, third is your other winger.

6. Put your most dangerous Striker in terms of Anticipation, Off-The-Ball movement etc. as your Target man but do not tick the Target Man box. The reason for this is your Fullbacks will aim for his feet with crosses if he is set as targetman, but your whole team setup will suffer if you tick the Use Target Man box.

This tactic may not suit your defenders or your Central Midfield players, but if they are of a high standard it should do fine. It is the attacking play around the box you should watch.

SFraser, and there was me thinking you were secretive about your tactic's specifics! haha

Also, I too have never liked the idea of telling each player what to do, they are footballers and should do the right thing most of the time if allowed to, and if their team-mate's are on the same page so to speak. I just hope the tactical wizard in fm10 doesn't take this away from the majority of players.

I'd just started a game as S.S. Lazio, but reading your posts always makes me want to play my Utd save again, just to see the football flow.

This is the first time in 7 seasons that I didn't win the premiership, mostly due to tactical experimentation, and the injuries to messi, aguero and rooney, leaving the wings, forwards and cms over-worked, and the youth used too frequently. Have brought Veloso in now to play in mid-field when needed as he can cover inler (who I would highly reccommend as a defensive midfielder and captain!) and rooney in midfield. One experiment which did pay off however, was playing berbatov with rarely forward runs. Just by doing this, gave the wingers more space to break in behind the defence, and encouraged anderson to overlap with him from midfield, which actually saw him score some goals!!!

Well it is incredibly player quality dependant which probably makes it a poor tactic in all honesty, but the offensive play with wrong foot wingers and maximum creative freedom is worth seeing if you have the talent. I have been waxing lyrical about about outside of the foot volleys, chipped passes, dragback then throughball and dinked crosses for quite a few posts now so it is only right I put something up even if it is a bit suspect.

Berbatov is an interesting player because he really doesn't like following instructions. If you set him up to do what he likes with a few pointers he is incredibly dangerous, when he turns up. He is also a player that needs to be told "You have Faith" as often as possible. There are quite a few players like that, and I suspect it may have something to do with their Pressure and Temperament attributes. Still with his Anticipation, Composure, Creativity, Decisions, Flair and technical skills he is a lethal creative player.

Just played a game with your tactic, had to change the corner settings immediately, as I noticed it takes advantage of the corner exploint, and vidic scored in the 1st minute :-s

I also had to add holdupball to both the CMs as they weren't taking their time over things enough. The forwards, fullbacks and the wingers played brilliantly though. May be a case of waiting for the CBs to get used to their settings though.

Just played a game with your tactic, had to change the corner settings immediately, as I noticed it takes advantage of the corner exploint, and vidic scored in the 1st minute :-s

I don't put anyone to mark the gk, thus avoiding the exploit; otherwise my corner instructions are offensive - all my DCs come up. I get a fair few goals, ending in the top 3 in the division from corners, with my DCs getting their share. With the right players, but without the exploit what you get is fair and reasonable, but still quite tasty!