Unconventional Tactics.

[ham_aka_stam]

I don't put anyone to mark the gk, thus avoiding the exploit; otherwise my corner instructions are offensive - all my DCs come up. I get a fair few goals, ending in the top 3 in the division from corners, with my DCs getting their share. With the right players, but without the exploit what you get is fair and reasonable, but still quite tasty!

Sorry, not clear enough, I was talking about SFraser's Tactic

I so the following, best CB near post flick-on, other CB attack near post. Best heading striker on far post. Other striker attacking far post. Other good header attacking ball from deep. Both MCs on Lurk (which is very good at stopping counter-attacks), and then both wingers on short (one of them will inevitably be taking it into the 6-yard-box).

[SFraser]

Yes sorry about that. That is my inability to concede defeat while experimenting with tactics. Not very sporting. I will make sure to remove it in any future uploads.

What was your impression of the attacking play?

[ham_aka_stam]

Yes sorry about that. That is my inability to concede defeat while experimenting with tactics. Not very sporting. I will make sure to remove it in any future uploads.

What was your impression of the attacking play?

Very nice volleyed cross-field passes, step-overs and nutmegs, and one-touch one twos. The only issue I had is that I thought the high-ish mentality caused the attacking group to be a little bit gung-ho, so the use of the ball wasn't always the best, and often wastefull. In my tactic the attacking group is only 2-3 notches above the defensive one.

I also found that inler is too much of a defensive midfielder to fit with your CM settings, his technique and dribbling aren't good enough, but veloso and anderson loved it (rooney would do if he wasn't injured!, again) ronaldo also rinsed it on the wings, scoring two braces in three games.

What I really want is for play to start off conservatively, but then a switch in tempo when an opportunity arrises, and them them switching up a gear to catch the other team off guard, so I think I may experiment with a higher time wasting setting, or by dropping the attacking groups mentality, and adding counterattack.

I completely understand the corner comment, you will only see your team's true attacking potential when they're motivated. You don't want poor morale affecting your experiments. I would reccomend putting a slightly poorer aerial threat at challenge GK though, as I find as long as it's not vidic they don't score too many and it's not as unrealistic.

[ham_aka_stam]

I've just adjusted the tactic, from your starting tactic I have done the following: set-up corners as above

Added HUB to CMs, and removed it from strikers (but may put that back)

Removed use of playmaker

Dropped attacking unit's mentality by 2 notches

Decreased tempo by 2 notches

Increased time-wasting by 2 notches

And here are my last results

2:0 Liverpool A

3:1 Man City A

4:2 Fulham A

5:0 CSKA Moscow H

3:0 Wigan A

I have averages over 80% passing acc. and over 50% possesion

I think the defensive record is a case of my players not being accustomed to the offside trap, but I think the attcking play has been nothing short of amazing.

The CSKA game left my players with the following ratings:

Asenjo 7.9

Rafael 7.8

Evra 7.3

Ferdinand 7.3

Vidic 6.8

Tosic 8.4 (1)

Ronaldo 7.2

Anderson 7.9

Veloso 7.3

Laurito 8.9 (2)

Aguero 8.7 (2)

[heathxxx]

What I really want is for play to start off conservatively, but then a switch in tempo when an opportunity arrises, and them them switching up a gear to catch the other team off guard, so I think I may experiment with a higher time wasting setting

I find that the tempo slider and, to some extent, timewasting are two global sliders which can make a great difference when used well throughout games. They're usually now the only two adaptions I make during matches, along with passing, because some of my forwards and midfielders are ticked for global.

Tempo especially, I like to use in "bursts" when I feel my team either isn't breaking through effectively, or I think my opponents are on the ropes. I especially like to use higher tempo immediately after my team has scored a goal and my opponents are still sorting themselves out Usually results in another quick goal.

[Kaiser5507]

I find that the tempo slider and, to some extent, timewasting are two global sliders which can make a great difference when used well throughout games. They're usually now the only two adaptions I make during matches, along with passing, because some of my forwards and midfielders are ticked for global.

Tempo especially, I like to use in "bursts" when I feel my team either isn't breaking through effectively, or I think my opponents are on the ropes. I especially like to use higher tempo immediately after my team has scored a goal and my opponents are still sorting themselves out Usually results in another quick goal.

Healthxxx, how to adjust tempo and timewasting?

[SFraser]

I've just adjusted the tactic, from your starting tactic I have done the following: set-up corners as above

Added HUB to CMs, and removed it from strikers (but may put that back)

Removed use of playmaker

Dropped attacking unit's mentality by 2 notches

Decreased tempo by 2 notches

Increased time-wasting by 2 notches

I adjusted my tactics according to your setup and you are quite right in your observations. I have noticed far less extreme thrashings of certain opponents but a much better consistency of results and general control of play and intelligence of ball usage. I think it is fair to say that my enjoyment of Creative Attacking football had blinded me somewhat to the superiority of Creative Intelligent football.

I think the defensive record is a case of my players not being accustomed to the offside trap, but I think the attcking play has been nothing short of amazing.

It could be my settings, but since achieving a Strong level of Gelling and using Centre Backs with high levels of Anticipation and Teamwork I have managed a 15 game run without conceding. I am certainly open to suggestions if you think it is the tactics that are flawed.

[ham_aka_stam]

I'm not sure, I was willing to accept that it was my players lack of awareness with the set-up

I tend to just set up bot CBs the same normally, and I don't usually use offside, so I don't feel qualified to help with a split closing down offside trap set-up, but it seems to work, I've not lost in 18 games I've played with your framework, 16W, 2D. The most I've conceded in one game has been the 2 above, all the rest have been cleansheets or single late consolation goals because I refused to slow the attack down.

I noticed that my keeper is getting much better ratings with your settings. I'm not sure if this is because the defence are letting players through, or whether he's just hit a bit of form, but either way it's not affected my defensive record.

I did put HUB back onto the Strikers by the way, now all players have that option, except for the GK.

And I do similarly to as Heath suggested, increasing Tempo, dropping TimeWasting, and/or increasing the attacking unit's Mentality, if in search of a goal. Normally once I achieve this I'll up the tempo further and aim for a second straight away, but Bolton (I was away) still continued to put 10men behind the ball even after my first went in! (Got the second from a corner though... that'll teach 'em!)

[phnompenhandy]

"I did put HUB back onto the Strikers by the way, now all players have that option, except for the GK."

I recommend HUB for the keeper. When he receives a passback, instead of just lumping upfield to the opposition, he'll take his time to pick out a pass and keep possession. I've actually just taken HUB off my 2 strikers and AMC and put the other 8 on HUB. Why did you put HUB back on your strikers - what benefit did you notice?

[ham_aka_stam]

They have quite agressive player instructions (rwb often and ttb often), and it seems it gives them the option to hold it up if they believe it is the best thing to do. I just can't stand seeing a player running at a defender, and literally run AT him. I'd rather he stopped and played the possession pass.

As I say that is the effect it "seems" to have, but to be honest, it may not.

Interesting about the keeper, I might give it a go.

[phnompenhandy]

This thread's gone a bit quiet. I have a notion to run by SFraser nad anyone else who's been experimenting with these ideas.

I like (and am utilizing) the idea of having everyone on HUB and I've implemented high 'time-wasting', with the logic that the players will keep possession, build up patiently, wait for the opportunity then go for the kill, rather than racking up 50 shots and scoring 1 goal.

So, to take this further, what would be the effect of keeping these settings, plus lots of high creative freedom and free roles, but having a global very defensive mentality? I didn't get the opportunity to see the USA v Spain match, but by all accounts the US played well. I'm thinking that even with a superior side this could be efficient and effective football - the old Italian 'slow, slow, slow, quick - bang!' Thoughts?

[Zebedee77]

Against teams who press with intensity, HUB is dangerous. So as a general theory it isn't practicable for any but teams which rarely have to face opposition willing to press forward and challenge the defence.

HUB for me is most useful for players who do have time and space on the ball and players who frequently see the ball during 'transition' phases (often, these being the very same players - eg FB/WB, DCa/DMC/MCd, AMC/MCa/FCd and the wingers). Obviously, my experiences are at the lower reaches of the league so there may be a case for very intelligent centrebacks (Agger, Ferdinand, Baresi etc) to have HUB as well as for the fullbacks if they regularly see the ball without much in the way of attacking pressure (ie a 4-2-4 would make me reluctant to have HUB on the fullbacks because the very positionion of the wing forwards will reduce time and space and make the HUB ineffective and dangerous).

[vasilli07]

I tried HUB on my fullbacks and 1 of my more composed, better 1st touch and better passing centreback. I realised they will hold on the ball more and then take them their time to pick a pass rather than rush.

[Dezooner]

i cant saw wats HUB mean wats this?

[asus]

i cant saw wats HUB mean wats this?

hold up ball

[Dezooner]

thx a lot for fast reply

anyone make a 4-3-3 varitaions(4-3-3, 4-5-1, 4-2-3-1,4-1-2-2-1...) of this settings?

[melogroovy]

Just some quick questions if anyone is still using this. I didn't see this issue discussed but maybe I missed it. I find that if my wingers are set up to RWB often and cross from mix that they don't whip traditional crosses in that often. Instead they dribble to the byline and either squeeze past a defender and try to slip the ball in near post or they lay a pass back on the carpet to my MC at the top of the box.

In your set up, with FR and high CF do you find that they'll whip a deeper cross in if the winger sees a striker has some space? I ask because I usually like a big striker (no TM) and a pacey striker combo. Usually if my wingers are RWB often, they almost always dribble to the byline irregardless of the CROSS FROM setting. If I switch my wingers to RWB mixed I get more conventional crossing and my big striker is more efficiently used.

[Genetic Deviant]

i have made a 3-5-2 version of this.

[phnompenhandy]

i have made a 3-5-2 version of this.

Me too, for the last 3 seasons. I've discussed it here or in another thread; can't remember.

[micro-ice]

thx a lot for fast reply

anyone make a 4-3-3 varitaions(4-3-3, 4-5-1, 4-2-3-1,4-1-2-2-1...) of this settings?

I have made one for barcelona, moreover, its still in development.

This is a recent away game in the champions league against Man U. needless to say early signs look rather promising.

[Dezooner]

look need improve : )

but look promising tac. good lucks dude

when it finished upload tac pls

[SFraser]

It would be interesting to see how people are getting on, not with this tactic as a whole but with some of the "unconventional" ideas presented.

How are people getting on with HUB across the backline and Free Roles across the midfield? I have been losing and winning entire matches simply by altering who does and who does not have HUB ticked.

Infact one of my most interesting sets of mid-match tactical tweaking to produce significant variation in player performances is playing around with Width, Tempo, Free Roles and HUB for my Wingers and Central Midfielders. These instructions are giving me huge variations in player behaviour and really changing my angles and principle points and direction of attack without changing how aggressive these guys attack or what actions they use to attack. Something else I have been doing is playing the last 18 months with everyone set to All-Out-Attack and Maximum Tempo/Minimum Timewasting/Maximum CF and simply have been using formation, marking systems, Forward Runs, HUB, Free Roles, Width and player selection to adapt to every game.

Quite fun to watch if not exactly Chess in it's effeciency, but it does get rid of the headaches of subtletly for mentality etc. when firing up the game for a good display of football. Would be good to hear some feedback on the issues of Free Roles, Width and HUB instructions if anyone has any.

[AcidBurn]

I cant remember what tactic it was but there is one on here that has both strikers in a 4-4-2 set to the most defensive mentality, the user claims that they still score lots of goals. I thought that was very unconventional.

[batata169]

yes, there was one that frag posted a link to, both strikers were on defensive and i used it and carlos vela got 32 in the first season while eto'o got 29.

Also centre-backs were on attacking.

[Frag]

This is the one - http://www.fever-pitch.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=4794

[Comedybegs]

Hi all,

Id just like to say that this is a cracking little thread! It is much more interesting and fun to try and implement a philosophy like this than trying to micro manage every finite detail that some tactics do.

While I havent implemented it into my 1st team yet Iv played about 4-5 games with my reserves in friendlies and league matches and so far the results have been great. Iv been on a 3 match tour of Germany and won all three scoring a bunch of good goals (even my FB's are scoring?!?) against teams I should have lost to, quite heavily as well. Its not even as if my reserves are that good. I find that my wingers and Fb's also get lots of assists much more so than previously which I like. I manage Everton and I have bought quite a few players in but they are all youngsters (all under 19) with only the occasional 1st team player dropping in if he is out of form or needs match fitness. I play using a 4-1-2-2-1 formation which becomes a 2-3-2-3 (ish) when attacking and it seems to work quite well. I so far have both FB's DM and 2 CM's on HUB but I might soon try out using the CB's and even GK with it ticked. I have FR for the 6 midfielders and striker and use a 2-6-2 mentality with only the wingers and CBs different. Iv got to iron out a couple of kinks before introducing it to my 1st team (mainly the lone striker and getting the right player for the right game) plus I have some tough fixtures on the way so I might well till they go past. One benefit of using the reserves is that it can highlight where I dont really have enough depth and Iv found I only have Baines and one other young lad that can only play LB in my whole club so I might have to ask Blue Bill to dip into his coffers!

Another benefit of playing with this approach with my reserves proves it can also be played in the lower leagues as some of my reserves and U18's that Iv brought into the the team really are poor!

[ZdlR]

While this is another interesting read, I always find myself thoroughly frustrated by your theories, SFraser.

Whenever I read something you write I attempt to implement the wisdom therein and invariably my team plays like utter garbage.

Your posts are of high quality, consistently, and for that I can offer you nothing but praise. However, I feel you are either pushing the envelope with extraordinary players or you are too focused on theory.

All I ask with a football management game is that I can a) understand why I am losing and b) implement tactics such that I over-achieve (even mildly) each season given the players at my disposal.

Whenever I think I have either of these two goals achieved, somehow the game throws up a situation to tell me that I'm utterly wrong, that my theories are - apparently - completely naive and that my implementation is fatally flawed.

In some ways I can't wait for FM10's new tactic wizard. However, I predict it will leave me similarly flabbergasted.

By way of explanation for this rant:

I started at Inter, found it very easy domestically but fell foul of continental competition. Won the domestic league and cup with some style and decided I needed a different challenge.

Moved on to Zaragoza and built a half decent squad of players. Overachieved for a couple of seasons, narrowly missing out on the Euro Cup. Next season was horrific, didn't really buy a massive amount of players, all indications pointed to a settled, well-gelled squad but I ended up on a terrible run and got fired.

I was still, erroneously, considered World Class and landed a job at West Brom, tasked with saving them from the drop with 8 games to go - it was very much achievable at that point. Cobbled together a nucleas of players that I figured I'd stick with and bed in for the run-in. Ended up drawing 2 of the next 6 games and being thoroughly embarassed in all others. However, watching the match engine I would honestly say we were properly unlucky - bar a crunch relegation 6-pointer away to Wigan. Despite a tactic that can only be described as 'sound' - up to that point - I was annihilated. My players forgot what a football was ffs. Lost 4v1 and resigned in rage.

Still, unbelievably, considered World Class (reputation is fubar in 09, across the board) I landed the gig at Spurs. In the Euro Cup qualifiers and only got the job because Redknapp resigned. A quality squad with Keane and Berbatov up front, Modric, Lucho Gonzalez, Renato Augusto, Bentley in midfield, Corluka, Drenthe, Woodgate and Lescott at the back and Gomes in the sticks. Determination, Work Rate (bar Berba) and Teamwork are hallmarks of the team - and they were settled to the highest degree. Pre-season was a delight, we looked amazing both defensively and in attack. The blend of attributes and gelled nature of the squad made me think I could probably win the Euro Cup if I kept the squad fit. We won our first qualifier 11v0 on aggregate (4v0 away and 7v0 at home, with the entire team playing lovely stuff).

Then, I go into a difficult away game to Liverpool, who are playing a surely-not-suitable-for-the-EPL 4-3-2-1 Christmas Tree... Ok, I think, I'll play quite narrow, about a 7, play a bit deep to keep Torres' pace in check - about an 8 because too deep with all that midfield talent would spell disaster. I know they'll attack so I'll play quite defensive, quick and hit them direct on the counter. Yeah, that went well, I was 4v0 down by the 50th minute with absolutely no clue wtf hit me and my captain, Woodgate, playing at a 4. A ****ing 4!

So, I did the only thing that a person with a 9-5 job, half a social life and better things to do with their free time. I quit the game an started again. I now can't be bothered to play that game because it's tainted with my petulance. Sometimes I absolutely despise FM.

</rant>

[SFraser]

However, I feel you are either pushing the envelope with extraordinary players or you are too focused on theory.

I totally understand your rant.

I quote the above point because in honesty I would have to admit you are correct. Although I have had some success with applying these ideas to lower league teams, this thread is most definately not a "managerial approach" like for example Loversleapers or LAM's threads or indeed TT&F.

In a nutshell this thread is an example of a basic tactical setup employing high quality footballers and generally untried-untested and unconventional tactical choices, that on it's day can produce rediculously high quality football.

In terms of theory, and I think this is important, this thread describes a very simplistic tactical approach that exploits or takes advantage of attributes. I already know I have some of the best players in the game in my side, therefore I set up this formation to make maximum use of their superior attributes to provide the greatest attacking football their attributes allow within my rather basic tactical template.

The managerial game itself is perhaps the opposite of the premise of this thread. There was one galacticos team in my lifetime that really did the name justice, all others have failed or have been Galacticos of tactics and resource management and cunning.

What I am offering here is not a brilliant tactic for all seasons, pardon the pun. I am offering the results of my experiments when I have an unfair advantage in terms of attributes. I am offering component tactical concepts to consider, to experiment with, to play around with in your own side that differ radically from many norms and indeed arise from an unfair advantage, but at the same time produce the best football I have seen in this game, and arise from circumstances most other managers would not be in a position to experiment with.

It is something of a truism in my experience that the worse the side in terms of quality, the more you have to micro-manage, the greater is the feeling of achievement and the lower is the overall quality of football. Ergo I have a near maximum quality team, minimal micro-management required to achieve results, some of the greatest football quality I have seen, and zero sense of achievement in victory.

I am not putting forward a tactic for everyone to achieve victory with. I try to make this as clear as possible. The entire point of this thread is not to recognise my amazing holistic tactics for my unrealistic team that produces unrealistic victories, but for me to point out that you can use HUB on your defenders to compose them or that Maximum CF for your Strikers and Wingers at any level can be the best setting.

To put it another way, your ambition is to manage teams and achieve success according to those teams within the games framework. My ambition is to create and watch the best looking football I can construct with everything at my disposal, including edited finances and player rosters (I rarely touch player attributes and even then all I change is consistency and PA).

This is also becoming something of a rant.

I have Messi, Aguero, Ronaldo, Rooney, Ramos, Chiellini etc. in my side. I added them all to my team for the simple purpose of watching football of the highest level that I control. I still have to play the managerial game of keeping everyone happy, bringing through youth, adapting tactics to challenges etc. but I am doing it all not to achieve victory which is almost impossible not to achieve, but to achieve the kind of football that keeps me watching every full match replay for 4-5 hours per day since release. It is a fantasy team and no doubt a fantasy tactic, but it is a fantasy tactic that does not follow common principles and I have the leeway to experiment with maximum CF and HUB for defenders and wrong footed players on the wings and sweeper keepers and centrebacks bombing forward.

I am putting the ideas and success that I have seen in my games up for discussion and judgement by others. If they totally fail then I am being deluded completely, but at the same time perhaps I am in a position to dispell some myths created through nervousness and fear of defeat.

Where my position and your position trully differs is that you are in a position where you must adapt your entire tactical outlook to the opponent game by game, whereas everyone comes to me to defend. That's the difference, and don't take this the wrong way but I think that is perhaps your mistake. You play the game to achieve with the inferior sides or middle quality sides, so you must micro-manage your team to achieve points and not achieve beautiful football.

That does not mean you cannot take some ideas from this thread, but it means that you cannot take my entire tactics and my lack of constant adaption into your own teams.

Let me give you a PKM of one of my games, and I really hope you watch it.

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?qymuy0ymjzd

If you play as Spurs at game start you cannot achieve this level of football in a year. If you listen to the ideas of "reduce CF according to Flair/CA and play deep with slow defenders while using HUB for the tough Striker only" or all the usual ideas floating around on these forums then under no circumstance can you ever achieve it. If you do take some of these ideas onboard then it is more than possible to surpass it. I have never pretended to be a great football tactician but I get some great football from my players.

[ZdlR]

With respect to the quote that you used, the first part was, indeed, directed at this thread. However, the latter was aimed at your other threads. While I know your theories are based on empiricism, that just isn't enough to convince me, personally, that the theory can be translated - to any degree - into practice in FM.

By that, I mean to imply that there is a definite separation between 'what should work' as inferred from the tactical options available to you and 'what the settings actually imply' when viewed in-game. I've downloaded Loversleaper's latest tactical set and, after fully digesting the instruction manual that accompanied it, I put it into practice with my up-and-coming Newcastle team. I won the league at somewhat of a canter and when I chose the 'right' tactic for a situation, it made me really enjoy playing the game.

Loversleaper's tactics and, it appears from watching the opening 4 goals, your tactic versus Sunderland in this PKM, are indicative of what occurs when a tactic works: they seem mystically imbued with a internal coherence that is otherwise the downfall of tactics that I generally cobble together. While I am aware of the basics of what each slider implies, my creations are often fatally flawed in some way which is frustrating and seemingly unknowable. I blame the inherent - almost intentional - ambiguity of the options provided, and the myriad disagreements found on this very forum. One minute, defending deep against a fast striker is a necessity, the next it is suicidal. There appears to be no consensus opinion from which we can all emerge better tacticians. 20 settings for width is all well and good, but can anyone honestly, coherently, logically and lucidly explain to me the difference in the gradations? Am I correct in assuming that, given a set of circumstances (eg: away, wide pitch, narrow opponent, poor weather) there will be a 'sweet spot' or 'Goldilock's Zone' of 'adequate' width? I make such an assumption by reducing the alternative to the absurd: that I would have to set every slider to the correct position across the board in order to succeed.

As a result of tactical naivety, I rely heavily on motivation in order to yield results. If I am favourite for a match, I will probably win, bar mitigating circumstances. However, if I am the underdog I cannot instruct my team to overperform. Hmm, perhaps what I mean is more succinctly put: I can't effing defend.

I could seriously ramble on for a long, long time about how I feel this game could be the greatest ever if only I could sit down pre-match, weigh up the circumstances involved and formulate a set of tactical instructions that wouldn't result in a hammering for my team. I attribute my failure to either 1) Drawing erroneous conclusions from the data available (eg: Liverpool will play 4-3-2-1 ergo I should play narrow to squeeze them out) or 2) My conclusions are correct but my implementation is shoddy (eg: I should play narrow ergo I will set Width to 5). In the example I just gave, it seems preposterous that the latter wouldn't be correct but I didn't intend to weight the argument in any direction. If anything I feel that a slight miscalculation in implementation shouldn't yield a tonking, but starting from the wrong premises could.

Anyway, I'm struggling to convey simultaneously both my rage at the game's apparent bouts of incomprehensibility and my desire to conquer my tactical deficiencies. I'll replay the Liverpool game I mentioned above (for the third time, I switched off after 35 mins last time after going 3 down and my players suddenly looking like they'd just met that very morning). I'll not be unconventional with my tactics, far from it, I'll use the received wisdom on this forum and I'll post the resulting PKM for a public dissection.

[ZdlR]

I'm not wanting to hijack your thread, SFraser, but I decided I'd sit and have a real think about my tactics for the Liverpool game. The short story is: I snatched a 1v1 draw, rather than taking a complete beating.

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=81f47bf73fc1b85300d27174b47c6657e04e75f6e8ebb871

That's the PKM. I won't go to the ends of the earth to describe my tactics, I can barely remember all the decisions that I came up with before the game or events I reacted to in game.

However, I'll summarise a few key points. I decided that a 4-3-2-1 could either be: contained (with sufficiently good defenders), flattened, or overloaded - in preference order.

'Containment' would mean a well-organised defense and midfield who focus on positioning and limiting space. 'Flattening' would involve pushing up high and squeezing Torres, Kuyt and Babel back on to Gerrard, Plessis and Lucas. This is less desirable to containment because it can be overloaded and requires high pressure on the ball carrier in their defence lest a long ball ruin my entire system. Pressuring defences is something Berbatov and Pavlyuchenko simply won't carry out with their crappy work rates. Finally, using a team without the personnel to perform either of these systems, I would just overload their attack. I was doing this before by going narrow, defending in numbers and not really thinking about an attacking component to my game.

I felt my players were good enough to contain so I set about designing this set up. As I had played this match twice before I knew that Liverpool would throw their fullbacks up to join the attack whenever possible, thus creating six tightly packed players in the middle and two wide ball recyclers who could conceivably deliver a cross - albeit into an overcrowded box. I knew that Liverpool would be looking for the killer short through ball past my defence, so to contain them I would have to limit the time that they had on the ball. As almost all of the Liverpool personnel had great movement off the ball, containment wouldn't allow me to tightly mark them as I'd surely be beaten by their anticipation and touch. So, this was option 1 - which I took - but it required the right defensive personnel. Until half-time, Drenthe, Lescott, Woodgate and Corluka were given this task. They all have pretty good positional sense and I feel that closing down is the last thing I would want as it disrupts positioning and allows clever attackers to pull defences apart. So, my entire back line were on closing down first notch of 'own half' - hopefully inducing them to form a line in front of our box and hold fast. They were also given, along with almost the entire team, loose zonal marking. This very forum would yell in unison that this was suicide against the likes of Torres but I disagree in this instance: if I'm touch tight to Torres he's going to turn almost any defender in the world that gets so close. You don't defend as individuals, you have to have a defensive system. My midfield were set to close down first notch of whole pitch, so they would engage advancing midfielders early, my central midfielders on hard tackling so that they try to make an early challenge. The midfield 4 were also on the very middle mentality to keep them in sync and on the same wavelength.

I needed an attacking component to the game and the weather sort of dictated this. I would be punting balls out of defence for much of the day, so I would have to use Berbatov to drop into space (free role, middle mentality to match midfield), take his time on the ball (hold up ball), pick out a killer pass (17 creative freedom, 15 passing, often through balls) or drive at the defence (often run with ball). He would then look for Pavlyuchenko, my only other striker who was fit and didn't lack match fitness to any degree. I knew that Pav wasn't particularly fast at all, so he wasn't going to break forward from alongside Berbatov. However, he does like to beat the offside trap so I figured I'd split the mentality of my forwards. Pav was given first notch of attacking mentality, forward runs often and no free role in order to have him on the shoulder of the last man. I must admit that he wasn't well suited to this role and his lack of pitch time alongside Berbatov in pre-season shows - the mentality compounds the problem and they take a while to click. However, they do pretty much what I have set them up to do.

So, the game itself sees me statistically dominated, but if you watch the full match - as I did - you see that there is a coherence underlying the tactic that shows flashes of nous here and there. Their goal comes due to Woodgate being injured more than anything, although the counter-attack should probably have been prevented - our free kick is set up almost like a corner and I should've had more insurance on my corners. Our goal was somewhat unexpected. While Liverpool where going for quantity of chances, I was happy to be patient and hold out for quality chances - and hope my good strikers would take the opportunities presented to them. Prior to Pav's goal he was on a rating of 5.7 and in real danger of being subbed off for Bent. His attacking mentality is exemplified by his gamble on scoring.

So, to tie this post up - and legitimise it in the context of the OP: Unconventional Tactics - this tactic was unconventional. I had hold up ball on a number of defensive players and both HUB and Free Role on Berbatov - settings which are commonly seen as mutually exclusive. I think Berbatov did exactly what was asked of him admirably.

Hope you watch the PKM, not all of it is amazingly interesting and we look lucky in places, but it beats being 4 nil down with half an hour to go...

[Comedybegs]

ZdlR your not alone I also go loose zonal for most games especially against good teams. Although I do tend to use the TM OI for central midfielders and definately a DM/AM and CD ST's.

One thing Im still not sure on is HUB for my attacking trio (4-3-3 or 4-5-1 wingers). Im not sure whether its better to try and keep the flow of a forward 3 or a more precise and slower build up. When I play against the better teams I like to play a little slower so I think it suits the forwards/wingers to not have HUB as the play is already fairly controlled.

Iv also got a couple of questions about your tactic that you uploaded Sfraser.

1) I see you put your wingers in your Pm list. I have always been led to believe that it was the only the top player on the list that mattered? Could you just not put 'play down flanks' and get a similar result?

2) You say how ticking the TM with 'ball to feet' will hinder performance. What exactly do you mean by this? Iv always wondered whether if you put 'ball to feet' will they try and cross along the ground? I use a big strong TM and Id like him to get ball to feet from clearances/initial play then lay it off to the wings who then either cut inside and score (hopefully) or whip an aeriel cross in to my TM to nod it in. Im guessing (hoping) that this is kinda what you mean?

I enjoy this attacking way of playing much more than most other theories and tactics because although I guess it means im not micro managing every player I still get the satisfaction of making a number of adjustments for my half decent team so that I can grind out narrow wins/draws against the best teams whilst also experiencing some majestic performances against the weaker teams!

[SCIAG]

1) I see you put your wingers in your Pm list. I have always been led to believe that it was the only the top player on the list that mattered? Could you just not put 'play down flanks' and get a similar result?

I'm almost certain it is. The top player on the list who is on the pitch is the only one treated as a playmaker. Hence why "use playmaker" is singular, among other things.

SFraser doesn't use "use both flanks" because he feels that doesn't get the MCs in the game enough.

[Comedybegs]

Has anyone tried this, or a version of this successfully in FM10.

In 09 a version of this I used produced the best football and probably the most consistent Iv had on FM. However, when I try and replicate it in FM10 it doesnt quite click at least not consistently.

[SFraser]

I have not actually. I have spent the first few weeks I have had the game playing it with the TC almost exclusively, but the additional Tactical Options for FM10 are really quite exciting and I may just edit together my old team from FM09 and have a go at a new and improved set of "Unconventional Tactics".

I don't know if many of you have spotted this, but it is quite interesting to note how many players have RWB+TTB or HUB+Free Role etc. in the TC.

[Comedybegs]

I have not actually. I have spent the first few weeks I have had the game playing it with the TC almost exclusively, but the additional Tactical Options for FM10 are really quite exciting and I may just edit together my old team from FM09 and have a go at a new and improved set of "Unconventional Tactics".

I don't know if many of you have spotted this, but it is quite interesting to note how many players have RWB+TTB or HUB+Free Role etc. in the TC.

I have initially tried creating a similar tactic through the TC in the hope that I could piece a few things together and use the creators knowledge plus a few customised elements to get the results. As you can guess from the first post it hasnt quite happened. A few glimers of hope followed by a few 'WTF' moments.

Since then I have reloaded my 09 game copied all the settings and plugged them into this version and Iv just won and kept clean sheets as Valencia and Man U (as Everton) without any of the new additions to the squad.

The only problem with inputting manual settings is that it makes the TC and shouts redundant, which is a shame as IMO its a great addition to the game.

[TheMister]

I don't know if many of you have spotted this, but it is quite interesting to note how many players have RWB+TTB or HUB+Free Role etc. in the TC.

-

For me, that's not significant regarding the free roles - the TC is based on TT&F which applies an arbitrary number of free roles; I mean, who's to say we have the personnel to implement these to effect in different ideologies. IMO that's something we, the individual, should apply - as we feel necessary and when the need/situation arises.

Comedy, would you mind uploading and posting a link for the version you created for '10? I just downloaded the '09 one without realising it was for the previous version (DOH!) and wondered why it wouldn't import LOL.