Improving my Celta side - An Albiceleste approach.

Greetings,

I'm on vacation and decided to dust off FM16 again after reading the very inspirational Back to Basic thread by herne79.

I have just completed season 1 with Celta de Vigo and if one was result oriented, one would say a stellar season, ending up in 3rd place and CL next season. However, one should also look behind the results a little and realize that 1) we've been lucky in some matches and 2) we are doing well, but not really playing the way I like us to play. I need some help from you guys to get this right!

My aim

Being a fan of the South American influence on coaching I've always looked towards a high pressing variety when building a team. I favor high mental attributes and I have a tendency to purchase players from Argentina/Uruguay/Chile for this reason. Players with high aggression, determination and work rate/teamwork. Not as manic as Simeone, I like to think I'm a little more flexible. My long term goals are to implement a club DNA that will give us a long term solid foundation and to use tactics that are high pressing and both dominating and aggressive. The word energetic comes to mind.

Recruitment policy

I sold players for €115m and bought for 45. I like bargains and I like to scout extensively. I forgot to switch off first transfer window monies, so I was forced to sell 5 of my presumably best players (Mallo, Jonny, Radoja, Orellana and Bongonda). The latter, though, is one of those new Facebook friends you get who's smoking hot but turns out to be some dude from Nigeria. He looks a lot better than he is. Left with tons of cash to spend I brought in 4 Argentinians for short term purposes (players that I have bought in the past=safe, but unspectacular). Long term goal: buying high potential ability players that also fits my DNA.

The outline of a tactic

Here are the experimental stuff I've been toying with so far:

Using this formation

Within this framework I adjust mentality based on the risk I am willing to take to get the win - going from defensive to standard. I realize that mentality also affects other things, but to keep it simple I'll just go ahead and call it risk. It's fitting. So along with that I also change the shape based on how our matches are progressing. But the starting point is always the same: much higher d-line up and close down much more. We had some very bad results in between the good ones and as you can see from the final table, we lost a whopping 9 matches over the course of the season:

We wouldn't have made it to the Champions League if both Atletico and Sevilla had been performing normally. We were destroyed against Real and Barca over 4 matches, not winning a single point.

Much higher D-line might have been too ambitious for my side. I will adjust this to push higher up the coming season. I've not really had defenders fast enough to cope with it, there's also physical shortcomings.

Close down much more, it's self explanatory. It's what I want to do, high up the pitch to create pressure and transitions.

Prevent short GK kick. I want to maintain a high press.

Higher tempo. I have this deep seeded idea that along with high pressing football comes high tempo. Might be Klopp who gave me the idea. Is this right?

Play out of defense. I don't want meaningless long kicks up the pitch. I also want a slightly more patient buildup from the back.

Roaming. This is one that was used when going with the defensive mentality - to induce more creative play up the pitch. Did it work? I don't know... I unticked it the few times I went very fluid.

How did this perform? In one word; unstable. I got great performances from my CF(s) and also when using Beauvue as a AF(a). Guidetti finished on 25 goals and Beauvue 17. No problems there. However, my AM(a) scored very few goals (3), getting 9 assists tho. For a player with Iago Aspas' qualities in front of goal, that's very, very weak. I need to find a solution for this position.

My midfield duo of CM(d) (Gago) and CM(s) (Diaz, Hernandez, Klaassen) did okay. Nothing spectacular, but decent enough with an avg rating of about 7. Absolutely room for improvement nevertheless.

I absolutely suck at setting PI's, so there are very few. I've set the CM(s) to roam, given that I have a decent runner in that position (Klaassen).

In conclusion, my low risk approach has been marvelous defensively, but very much lacking that energetic pressure that leads to goal scoring chances - the season seen as a whole. I would love some input here, I know there are tons of excellent tacticians on this board.

Thanks for reading!

"Being a fan of the South American influence on coaching"

That formation above is something I have currently in my mind, however I favour more Pellegrini's approach (more specifically his Villarreal stint, slower tempo, medium closing down, technical play). He used something like this 4-2-3-1 formation in tough European matches, however the style/roles were different of course.

Great opening post. I allways struggle with the midfield triangle when I use the 4-2-3-1 so I'll follow this thread with interest. I'm by no means an expert, but for your attacking difficulties, how about introducing a more creative player role like a playmaker or Treq? As you're playing cautious mentality and structured shape maybe you need someone with creative freedom when you attack.

Higher tempo. I have this deep seeded idea that along with high pressing football comes high tempo. Might be Klopp who gave me the idea. Is this right?

The two are not really related. Barca and Bayern have both somewhat famously used a very high pressing style of play coupled with at times very patient build up in possession.

The two are not really related. Barca and Bayern have both somewhat famously used a very high pressing style of play coupled with at times very patient build up in possession.

It will be gone!

Great opening post. I allways struggle with the midfield triangle when I use the 4-2-3-1 so I'll follow this thread with interest. I'm by no means an expert, but for your attacking difficulties, how about introducing a more creative player role like a playmaker or Treq? As you're playing cautious mentality and structured shape maybe you need someone with creative freedom when you attack.

Played a friendly against River now, changed AM(a) to AP(s). Aspas was a little more involved and active. It helped.

"Being a fan of the South American influence on coaching"

That formation above is something I have currently in my mind, however I favour more Pellegrini's approach (more specifically his Villarreal stint, slower tempo, medium closing down, technical play). He used something like this 4-2-3-1 formation in tough European matches, however the style/roles were different of course.

Yes, he created a formidable side there. It could be that I should be more flexible with regards to starting tactics, maybe create a 4-1-2-2-1 also.

Preseason is done ahead of season 2 and this is the teams I expect to be favored. Changes below.

Common for both tactics:

Yes, very few attacking duties here. I will experiment further on this. Also the BWM in the 4231 is under constant supervision.

The preseason games was normal, weak opposition and good results. However, it is very difficult to read something from these games. Opening game against Malaga should give me some indications though.

Transfers

Let me give a quick rundown on the comings and goings since I started. Since I sold so many players the first window of season 1 the board was able to finish off all debts, so the financial state is very healthy. The money from CL participation will for sure help also.

Turns out that Emmanuel Mas lived up to his last name and wanted much more, in term of wages and standing. Liverpool came in for €16M and I let him go. Bought Jorge from Flamengo for 20. A very decent upgrade even though I had to pay more than I liked. Stephan Lichtsteiner came in during the winter window as Mallo departed for Chelsea. At 32 years of age he is a short term solution and as preseason got underway I started long term scouting for a new RB. It is difficult to find good fullbacks when we need to consider our playing style and DNA. Sime Vrsaljko would have been the perfect replacement, but he went elsewhere. I also picked up Juan Jesus for around €10M. Sergio Alvarez came in as a rotation player for a measly €4M or so. Rulli was a Bosman signing and my new #1. Pablo Hernandez will leave for Boca in December. He was injured a lot during season 1 and is not reliable. Marcelo Diaz is also on his way out.

As for as long term goals go (signing high ability players) Rulli is a massive step in the right direction. We will have a first choice keeper for years. Juan Jesus is somewhere in the middle I guess. Having never signed him before I'm not sure what to expect, but his reports came off decent. Andreu Fontas is too weak physically to be dependable, so I'm looking to cash in on him ASAP. I also took Julian Brandt on loan, he'll provide very good coverage on the flanks. Great prospect. He really doesn't fit that well with the DNA part, but he's not too bad either. Pablo Piatti is one of my go-to guys when playing this particular style. He's got great mental attributes (for a winger) and a through and through professional. Great for tutoring purposes also. He does not have the world beater ability though, but to have in the my squad is important. Now, if we only could find Roberto Ayala reincarnated....

I will update as we start the next season, I am very excited

Since settling on the 4231 formation as a starting point I've always thought that finding the right combo in midfield. After trying various roles I'm now pretty sure I have found the right one.

Lets have a look at the 10 matches thus far:

The turning point came during the Villarreal game where I had to play Gago and Alvarez together because of injuries. I decided to put Gago on AP(s) and Alvarez on CM(s). No defending duty. It really spurred something in the team. I don't have the patience for watching games in full, but suffice to say it clicked somehow.

After that I had a very weird game against Lyon, where one of the worst strikers on FM, Leo Baptistao, bagged a brace. Oh well. We won't make it past the group stage with Juventus also in it.

For what it's worth, the Real game we should have won. Guidetti had two in the post, they equalize in the dying minutes etc. Frustrating.

I'll outline the changes later on, there are a few. I will also try a few PI's on the CMs to see if we can make it a little more defensive sound.

A quick question, how does your team survive high pressing with high tempo for whole 90 minutes? When does fatigue kick in?

Do you use periods of rest in matches, or you push non-stop and build your team on high stamina runners?

I find it difficult to mantain high tempo throughout the match, especially in midfield.

A quick question, how does your team survive high pressing with high tempo for whole 90 minutes? When does fatigue kick in?

Do you use periods of rest in matches, or you push non-stop and build your team on high stamina runners?

I find it difficult to mantain high tempo throughout the match, especially in midfield.

For season 2 I removed high tempo from the TIs. It has helped a lot on fatigue, although the wide players tend to tire after about 75 minutes, fullbacks and wingers. Lichtsteiner is a physical beast though, he can go all 90 minutes without subbing.

For season 2 I removed high tempo from the TIs. It has helped a lot on fatigue, although the wide players tend to tire after about 75 minutes, fullbacks and wingers. Lichtsteiner is a physical beast though, he can go all 90 minutes without subbing.

I thought so. I decided to drop high tempo as well, activating it only when the heat needs to be turned up. I always wondered how people play on high tempo, considering that even Atletico in real life can't keep it up for the whole game.

Season is now halfway done as we just got knocked out of the King's Cup by Barcelona (1-0).

After a very decent start to the season we started picking up injuries on key players as the fixture list got thicker. Here's a look since I last updated the fixtures:

I am thinking I'm doing something wrong with training. Will investigate.

For some reason, my tactic is not doing well in Europe. I'm being outplayed in all matches, even the one I won against Liverpool was lucky. So I am giving serious consideration into just rethinking the whole tactical aspect. The high pressing is working to some extent, but I am creating far too few chances from it. Look at this latest match, it's pathetic:

What do you guys think? Am I being extremely results oriented? Am currently second in the league, but still. It's dreadful to watch.

Tactic at the moment:

Sorry about the large photos, any tips on how to make them smaller?

We are on the brink of greatness at the moment.

I stuck with it the original setup of 4231 high pressing. I had a busy January window, loaning in Gaz Cahill and buying N'Golo Kanté outright. Kanté in as BBM alongside a AP(s). Tweaking a lot during matches though, risk willingness and shape/creativity. The major change I do however is a combination of shape and d-line. Semifinal against Sporting in the Europa League.

In the final of the Europa League there was only one team on the pitch:

impressive stats vs Barca

1) can you post more details about this match ? i mean what was the score ? also the starting 11s,formations etc

2)post the transfer history of the first 2 seasons

3)in post 11 you said you are doing something wrong with training ,what do you mean

I can see this thread being all over the place, so it is time to write up a tactical analysis on how we got there in the end.

Season 1: 3rd place finish in La Liga, quarter final exit against PSG in Europa League.

Season 2: 1st place finish in La Liga, 3rd place finish in CL group and winner of Europa League.

We basically always used a 4-2-3-1 with some exceptions where a 4-1-2-3 DM Wide was used. In season 1 I had a much higher defensive line as seen earlier ITT. It didn't work on a consistent level, however yielding some good results here and there. I think that it was more a fluke type thing, but we managed to finish 3rd. The much higher defensive line was a total miss against much stronger teams, such as Barca, Real and Juventus. As soon as we adopted a more conservative d-line we were doing better against said teams. We also had problems creating real chances, which is also down to having a very high pressing style. Smaller areas to maneuver and little space for the forward players. It's logical.

So for season 2 we had to do a complete rethink. I still really wanted us to play the Argentine way: high up the pitch pressure, force our opponents to make mistakes and punish them ruthlessly, but I had to realize that the extreme high d-line was too aggressive. So I adjusted the d-line a notch down and removed the higher tempo shout. We had a good start, but all the previous signs of lacking attacking prowess were still there. We didn't create much, but were rock solid at the back. So I had a look at my TI's again. I read the thread of marsupian, who is building a similar concept, but with a different formation (4411/442). He uses a tighter marking shout that I had tried earlier, but found to be too demanding (stretching my players). I had now taken the d-line down a notch and decided we should try tighter marking again. It is after all a very good shout for my type of play.

Around Xmas time (3rd/2nd in the league) we landed on this setup:

Player Instructions:

AM(s): More risky passes - occasionally roam.

In-game changes

So it's pretty clear that when playing this type of system you will meet teams that sit deep and try to hit you on the counter. By having an image of their tactic on your match day screen you get a pretty good idea of how they will play. You'll also see it if you pay close attention to the match itself, especially in the beginning. Here is a good example from a home game against Bilbao:

As you can see, there is very little room for us here. They have what I assume is a defensive forward in the middle of the park, the rest of them are behind the ball. So to not fall into the trap of trying to force our way through I adjusted the defensive line down. This gives us more room to play in and it draws them out of their hole, so to speak. A few minutes later Jorge plays a nice one-two with Piatti and gets the cross in to Zivkovic for a simple tap-in.

There were times when I also changed shape, to get more creative or to protect a lead. More fluid is more creative etc. I frequently used retain possession when defending, along with a defensive mentality and structured shape. I could easily get 65-70% possession, as witnessed in the EL final against Barcelona. It was the most used variant when defending, extremely effective.

Finally, I also changed roles and duties depending on the situation. The CF was frequently changed depending on who started. I had one pacey striker in Beauvue who played as an AF with good results. I also used a right footed IF on the right side, to get some different type of movement. I feel the left footed IF is too one dimensional in his movement with the ball, always cutting inside at 20 yards out etc. Having a player like Brandt there made a lot of difference in many matches.

Player types

Here we have two different CD's, one is the right choice, the other is not:

On the left we have CD with high aggression and fairly high bravery. The one on the right has medium aggression and for a CD fairly low bravery. These two combined makes him passive. Concentration is also key for a CD. My point is that in this system you are better off with a commanding or strong CD. You need that enforcer type defender, much like Nemanja Vidic was at Man Utd. No-nonsense type player at the back.

Here's a typical player with, to be fair, highly average ability, but suits the system very well:



Midfield general:

You get the gist. To play a style like this you should have the right type of player. You shouldn't go out there and buy all the Youssuf Poulsens of the world, but make sure they have the bravery and aggression, and the work rate.

impressive stats vs Barca

1) can you post more details about this match ? i mean what was the score ? also the starting 11s,formations etc

2)post the transfer history of the first 2 seasons

3)in post 11 you said you are doing something wrong with training ,what do you mean

Having had problems against Barca I started the match in 'defensive' and 'structured'. We got the lead fairly early on, so I basically just cruised it in with 'retain possession' for the latter part of the match. Never threatened. It should be said that Barca is coached by Unai Emery as Luis Enrique took over Spain. Before this we hadn't beaten them in 6 outings

Had it been scoreless after 60 minutes I would have adjusted the shape and d-line probably.

Transfers is described above a little. I lost a lot of players season 1 and maintained in season 2. Season 2 I spent more than I sold for and also had to resort to loaning players (Cahill, Luan and Brandt). I spent the bulk of it Kanté (35m) though, and he was a beast. He doesn't have very high aggression, but makes up for it in other areas. The key transfers was Cahill as he added sorely missed bravery and aerial prowess. Sergio Gomez is just too weak to be relied upon in this system (20m to Real ahead of season 3). Rulli came in on a free. Juan Jesus for around 10m. My best signing was Lichtsteiner for like 3m.

Regarding post 11. I had a lot of injuries around November/December. A lot. So the eligible players were extremely tired at the end of matches. I lead the league comfortably before this happened. I assume it was because of high intensity in the preseason or high intensity from August to September/October. I'm not sure.

I must have been asleep, how have I missed this thread?

Great stuff, good write up .

I must have been asleep, how have I missed this thread?

Great stuff, good write up .

Wow, thanks:D

Being Celta after a double winning season is not easy. The board gave me a whopping 25m to improve the squad for the next season. Players that need replacing:

Lichtsteiner (will turn 34 in January) - coaches are giving negative reports and his physical attributes are dropping. Juve just offered 6.5m, I think I will accept. Contract runs out.

Brandt (loan return)

Cahill (loan return)

Sergio Gomez (sold)

Dejan Drazic (sold)

Jesus Gamez (sold)

That's 6 players, 4 of whom are integral members. So we need to start a fairly broad search of bargains. First we find a good backup to my two only strikers:

Can you guess the player?:

Spoiler alert; The Sun ran this headline on him once: Dou me a favor, Roman (when he was linked with Chelsea). Anyways, he comes in for 3.5 or so and takes a pay cut to join us. We also take a huge gamble on Eliaquim Mangala on a loan deal. The finances are not a gamble, but will he perform? He looks a little up and down in the mental department, lets see. We have had an offer for Kamel Glik accepted from Monaco for a cut price, he is the personification of what we are aiming for at the back. We also bring in Erik Lamela as a direct replacement for Julian Brandt. He's Argentinian and very promising in all facets, transfer listed at Totteham.

Now I need someone to replace who used to be my most trusted defender, Lichtsteiner? Any ideas?

Yikes. First day of the title defense, against newly promoted Alcorcon:

After 75 minutes they had 4 shots on goal, 4 goals and zero CCCs. Jebus Christ.

#ThatFeeling when you forget your #1 striker have a minimum fee clause and he's gone in 60 seconds flat.

Halfway through season 3 and things are going... Not very good, but not too bad either. Celta has now reached the level of intimidation that all sides, whether it is Real Madrid or Almeria, come to Balaidos with at least 1 DM, often times 2 and most players behind the ball. It is to be expected I guess. It gives me a challenge at least.

How to combat these ultra defensive teams? Keeping in mind that we have a system that works - we know the tactic is sound. We also know the players are better overall than those of Almeria and Espanyol. We have been scouting well and we are confident our DNA is intact. There is no need to change the core tactic, we just need to approach it differently.

So with that in mind I will namedrop another great thread on this forum, the most underrated of the "The Art of..." series by Cleon. Underrated in the sense that both "The Art of Counter" and "The Art of Possession" got a lot of clicks on here, where as my fav "The Art of Attacking Football" flew a little more under the radar, but is a real eye opener for breaking down sturdy defenses. You'll find the whole thread in the stickies.

I use the same 4-2-3-1, with more or less the same roles. The changes made are to cater to the different qualities of my players, especially up from. I've had to change the CF(s) role now that Guidetti left, but that's not the point.

Here's a setup frequently used this season:

The black circles you see there are the most notable changes. By going from Standard to Attacking we are taking a lot more risks, the ball is moving a lot faster and the passing suffers. That's the real downside of this particular mentality. Because the passing suffers you will be prone to counter attacks. Also a major downside. BUT; the attacking play and movement is phenomenal with the right roles/duties.

I untick Roam - too much movement. It delivers plenty with that one gone.

Prevent Short GK is just my preference in this particular style.

Work ball into box is essential. Without it, combined with attacking mentality you'll see a lot of speculative shots from range, when they have better passing options.

You can also pull the passing down to Short, but I think it will kill some of the action for me. I'll leave it on Mixed for the time being. Tempo should be Normal, higher tempo will be too much tempo and the passing will be even worse.

The standing in February:

I had a rocky start to the campaign and it took some time to make the right adjustments. I also lost a six-pointer to Real at home, so I have to play catch-up for the remainder. I still have to play Real away and fortunately I have Barca at home, so I'm slightly optimistic.

HI,

congratulations for your results. Really impressive.

A couple of questions:

You have an AP mcl and wb-at on left side.

You have two runners in central midfield area (bbm and ap). Nobody holding midfield.

Aren't you extremely exposed?

Wonderful thread, really has me thinking.

How does the team look defending in its own half? My issue with the 4-2-3-1 and formations with AMR/AMLs in general has been inconsistency in tracking back and shape, leaving my CMs exposed and dragged around.

Keep it up.

HI,

congratulations for your results. Really impressive.

A couple of questions:

You have an AP mcl and wb-at on left side.

You have two runners in central midfield area (bbm and ap). Nobody holding midfield.

Aren't you extremely exposed?

Thanks.

The WB(a) would go as fullback a lot of the times. WB when needing goals, more or less. I would (in match) change the attacking roles up front, then I changed the mentality of the fullbacks accordingly, to not be exposed on the flanks. Very basic really.

Regarding the holding midfield; during the initial experiments I had one CM(d) and I also puzzled with a DLP(d). I also tried a BWM(d and s) a while, but really could never find the right fit when using a defensive minded CM there. It wasn't until I made Gago the AP(s) and found a good BBM it really came together up the pitch. The box to box midfielder would get like 8 goals per season coming in late in the area and smashing home. So the combo of AP and BBM, both on support, proved to be the best for this team. If you look at the fixture pics earlier in this thread you'll see a lot of conceded goals. After finding the right fit it really gelled and the high d-line made it work.

Wonderful thread, really has me thinking.

How does the team look defending in its own half? My issue with the 4-2-3-1 and formations with AMR/AMLs in general has been inconsistency in tracking back and shape, leaving my CMs exposed and dragged around.

Keep it up.

Cheers tyler,

To make a system like this work, with a 4-2-3-1 high pressing variant, you need those players who are willing to track back (support roles on the flanks as a starting point). Like stated earlier, I was very narrow in my search for players (work ethic and aggression). A player like Andrija Zivkovic was amazing here. Same with Erik Lamela. There's no shame in having a lot of supporting duties in those games where you know it'll be a bombardment down the flanks. During those game you just adjust by paying attention to what is happening in the match, and of course the shape/mentality.

Unwanted side effects are that I could not for the life of me beat Real Madrid. Played like 10 matches against them and mostly drew or lost narrowly. Finished 2nd in season 3 after losing both matches against Real (level on points). Annoying to say the least. My point is that the tactic can be enormously improved! Maybe I was too stuck on bringing in the high aggression players that I forgot about creativity? I don't know. I am by no means an expert, it just made me appreciate the 4-2-3-1 a lot more, and the match engine.

Anecdote; after the third season I was offered the Barcelona job. I was tired of having no money so I said yes, only not knowing that I would have the same transfer budget over there:lol:

Anyways, it was of course next to impossible to implement the same playing style with that team. We had Rakitic instead of Kanté, Messi instead of Lamela and so on. Even in defense, asides from Mascherano there are virtually zero aggressive defenders. Neymar has 10 for aggression and 12 for work rate, not too bad for an inside forward, but still - to expect him to be a second defender is optimistic. Overall the aggression level in that side is almost non-existent. So I really, really regret leaving Celta, for a host of reasons. Mainly because all I had to to was adapt a slightly more attacking style and just win win win. So now I'm just considering quitting after one season.