Celtic FC - A big fish in a little pond, but the pond seems to have other ideas

Ok guys, So I am the biggest team, with the best players in my league by a considerable distance, but I am drawing and losing far too many games for the ability in my squad.

I do not always win the possession battle, most of the time I am actually under 50% of possession which I find strange as I am playing an attacking game.

The morale in my squad is not an issue, my teamtalks are always firing my team up, I have never had any issues with them.

I am playing some lovely stuff when attacking, knocking the ball into channels and wide upsetting the opposition so they cannot settle, and usually I score from a wide ball into the box and either the striker or the winger knocking it in, looks beautiful to watch, I have get stuck in more, but for some reason my team does not seem to be able to make a tackle, I also have press more on, but consistently my players seem to sit off and not try and win the ball, this is what is leading to me conceeding goals, often from angled balls into a player then them converting on the angle with a defender narrowing the gap between him, the goalkeeper and the goal ( it is never near post, always far post I concede).

I want to play using the width of the pitch with my fullbacks overlapping for that killer ball into the box, I also would not mind winning the possession battle more often, if you guys could have a look at my screenshots and have any constructive feedback then it would be greatly appreciated.

It's an OK system, but there are a few things I'd keep an eye on in matches:

i) Watch where your CM (D) is obliged to go when your attacks break down. I suspect he has to drift right to cover space behind the WB (A). As your RPM will be up field, this risks leaving a tonne of space centrally

ii) Your left side is certainly worth watching. Two mobile guys in midfield and the Raumdeuter isn't going to be overly inclined to defend. Ties in with point i) in many ways

iii) You're just too aggressive. You're the only horse in a one horse race; everyone else is set up to counter you, and the easiest way to counter is against a team which over commits men forward. Your Mentality is all about tempo, a high line, pressing. Perfect for a countering side to get in behind.

It's an OK system, but there are a few things I'd keep an eye on in matches:

i) Watch where your CM (D) is obliged to go when your attacks break down. I suspect he has to drift right to cover space behind the WB (A). As your RPM will be up field, this risks leaving a tonne of space centrally

ii) Your left side is certainly worth watching. Two mobile guys in midfield and the Raumdeuter isn't going to be overly inclined to defend. Ties in with point i) in many ways

iii) You're just too aggressive. You're the only horse in a one horse race; everyone else is set up to counter you, and the easiest way to counter is against a team which over commits men forward. Your Mentality is all about tempo, a high line, pressing. Perfect for a countering side to get in behind.

So what exactly do you recommend I do? The cm is drifting to the right, you are correct and its leaving a fair amount of space

Personally, I'd drop the Mentality at least to Control and revert to a 4-4-1-1. You can easily use PIs with the Wide Midfielder Roles to replicate the Raumdeuter and IF Roles. That's give you much more defensive shape and dropping Mentality should make your play less frantic and (probably) wasteful.

not knowing the fm16 tactic engine, but making Bitton a dlp would help imo - perhaps making Johansen a box to box if the change on Bitton makes the formation to defensive

doesnt the attacking midfield area get to crowded, with Rogic playing there, Zivkovic entering the area, Bitton entering the area and Ciftci coming in as well?

Personally, I'd drop the Mentality at least to Control and revert to a 4-4-1-1. You can easily use PIs with the Wide Midfielder Roles to replicate the Raumdeuter and IF Roles. That's give you much more defensive shape and dropping Mentality should make your play less frantic and (probably) wasteful.

What about the RPM? using that with an AMC,

not knowing the fm16 tactic engine, but making Bitton a dlp would help imo - perhaps making Johansen a box to box if the change on Bitton makes the formation to defensive

doesnt the attacking midfield area get to crowded, with Rogic playing there, Zivkovic entering the area, Bitton entering the area and Ciftci coming in as well?

Now that you mention it, It can do, but it doesnt at the same time its difficult to explain

What about the RPM? using that with an AMC,

I'm not a fan of two Playmaker Roles down the middle. One will focus play in that area, two will make you pretty predictable and it's easier to defend against a team which channels its play all through the middle. I'd ditch one of them in favour of a non-Playmaker Role.

I'm not a fan of two Playmaker Roles down the middle. One will focus play in that area, two will make you pretty predictable and it's easier to defend against a team which channels its play all through the middle. I'd ditch one of them in favour of a non-Playmaker Role.

Is it worth me going bbm midfielder and changing it to rigid with short passing and lowering the tempo?

Is it worth me going bbm midfielder and changing it to rigid with short passing and lowering the tempo?

Have a look at the Pairs and Combinations thread to read about good midfield pairings. I still feel a BBM and CM (D) is a bit too loose in a 4-2-3-1.

Why would you change Team Shape? What do you think it would add? I would definitely consider dropping the tempo if you're sticking with Attacking. Pass Shorter is another matter. You have selected Run At Defence which gets your AM line and striker dribbling more (which equates to passing less). Adding Pass Shorter to layer on top of that might mean you're not making incisive final third passes.

Ok I shall read that, is the framework thread updated for this year?

Will, have a read at that to, I survived the league by 3 points, which I suspect was due to just having the better players, rather than the change of tactic.

How do you think that looks now? In theory from what I have read in the pairs and combinations pdf, that should allow for good passing of the ball without being overly vulnerable, and should provide good width in attack, and different options of balls into the box. Fluid could always be moved back to flexible

I was having the same problem, still only 2 points ahead of ICT going into the break. Started with a 4231, then switched to various asymmetric 451 before finally settling on this after lots of tinkering. Won 8 out of 9 with it so far and most recently it looks like I've tightened up the defence.

How come the right sided wingback is on defence and the left full back on attack? You look quite vulnerable down the left side imo especially when the BBM gets caught out of position when he ventures forward. I just wondered what made you come to the conclusion that those two roles as they are were better? I'm not saying change, just want to understand your thinking

Cleon what do you think of the changes I have made?

I feel as though my team has lost its zip, it is more defensively sound for sure, although bigger teams like Madrid are still making me look distinctly average, but in attack it looks slow, and the enganche doesnt look particularly threatening.

Cleon what do you think of the changes I have made?

I feel as though my team has lost its zip, it is more defensively sound for sure, although bigger teams like Madrid are still making me look distinctly average, but in attack it looks slow, and the enganche doesnt look particularly threatening.

I know this wasn't aimed at me but hope you don't mind me offering my opinions nonetheless as I too have struggled with the enganche role in FM. The Riquelme-worshipping romantic in me is desperate to make the role effective but sadly, it seems that it's just too static and perhaps even anachronistic to function as well as its competitor roles in the game. Even in the role's spiritual South American home, i've found that advanced playmaker is far more dangerous whilst also better achieving the aim of getting the designated player on the ball more often - so firstly, maybe reverting Armstrong back to an AP(s) would be an improvement. I know that using 2 central playmakers has been cited as not especially efficient up-thread but i've always found that a DLP on support or defend can complement an AP on support or attack pretty well in a midfield 3, provided there's a more defensive holder, as there is with Mulgrew in your set-up. I would however, definitely avoid pairing an AP with a RP.

Next, a couple of queries on personnel - has Bitton been sold? I'd suggest that' he's a far better fit for the DLP role than Johansen. Secondly, i'd definitely switch Commons and Zivkovic - the latter is your best player and a far more rounded, creative player than he's being allowed to be in the restrictive raumdeuter role (which is basically little more than a wide poacher. I'm not a fan of this role at all). I'd perhaps even attempt shifting your AP back as a CM(S) and setting Zivkovic as a wide playmaker from the right to maximise his time on the ball. Moving to a flat midfield 3 could actually be a decent option given the amount of attacking roles in wide areas - ideally, you want your central players deeper to pick these out, rather than having 1 running away from the ball.

Cleon what do you think of the changes I have made?

I feel as though my team has lost its zip, it is more defensively sound for sure, although bigger teams like Madrid are still making me look distinctly average, but in attack it looks slow, and the enganche doesnt look particularly threatening.

Can I ask why you play control? You have that set as the mentality then play slightly deeper, lower tempo and play out of defence. Wouldn't setting up as standard been a better option? I guess what I'm asking is, why did you choose control as the mentality then seemingly try and change it to a more standard one?

How come the right sided wingback is on defence and the left full back on attack? You look quite vulnerable down the left side imo especially when the BBM gets caught out of position when he ventures forward. I just wondered what made you come to the conclusion that those two roles as they are were better? I'm not saying change, just want to understand your thinking

My thinking of the RWB (d) was that it would provide more width than the FB role yet still be defensively sound. Providin cover for Forrest who isn't so strong defensivly. The hope that the width would allow my 2 CB to play slightly further apart to provide some cover on the left alone with the DM sitting in front of the 2 CB.

As for the left side we are pretty open as the majority of the opposition goals have came from here. But it's also were we create most of ours. There wasn't really much thought behind it. Just tried it and it worked well going forward. Tierney is a beast for pace, training him into a winger/IF my own Gareth Bale project.

My plan is to develop Tierney into a winger. With Forrest on the other side and two IF but adapted from a WM role. The only reason I have the AML is for Commons who has been one of my best players this season.

Do you have any reccomendations on who to improve the set up and also the best way to make a WM act like an IF.

Can I ask why you play control? You have that set as the mentality then play slightly deeper, lower tempo and play out of defence. Wouldn't setting up as standard been a better option? I guess what I'm asking is, why did you choose control as the mentality then seemingly try and change it to a more standard one?

I was losing the possession battle far too often, and I wanted to control the game, I am pretty guff at tactics so I rely on wisdom from you guys to adapt it, I do want to play a passing game where I am controlling the possession with nice football, what do you recommend I change, if I am just playing standard?

I was also conceeding goals from being too exposed at the back, that is why I was dropping the line, Lower tempo with shorter passing and play out of defence = more possession in theory no?

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/440965-Unnecessary-Decisions-to-Double-Mark-Leaves-Acres-of-Space-Generally-Wonky-Defensive-Shape

This thread also explains the goals I am conceeding, and the decisions my players are making

So many people refer to that thread now it has been aired in GD, but there are still just 14/15 actual examples of the underlying bug reported. If it happened in lots of games, there would be outrage. It doesn't and there isn't.

So many people refer to that thread now it has been aired in GD, but there are still just 14/15 actual examples of the underlying bug reported. If it happened in lots of games, there would be outrage. It doesn't and there isn't.

It does, I can upload a save for it to be looked at? Albeit you will need to remind me how to do that.

They improved marking for defenders in the most recent patch (now full release), which helped the issue significantly. Also, using Structured or Very Structured helps a lot. Defender positioning on counter attacks is now a lot more concerning.

I am on flexible at the moment, If I go to structured do you think I will lose some of my attacking impotus? The team is playing nice football, just conceeding silly goals.

It does, I can upload a save for it to be looked at? Albeit you will need to remind me how to do that.

That would be great

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/437124-Reporting-a-Match-Engine-Problem

What SI will need is .pkms for affected matches, and for you to state when the incident occurs. In the thread you linked from GD, what SI want is examples of the far post full back on the opposite side to the AI ball carrier getting too tight to his DC. That opens a channel of space on the opposite flank which can be exposed when a switch of play happens. It's a perfectly legitimate means of scoring, this issue is the aesthetic impact of having a full back cuddling a DC when he should be covering his zone.

That would be great

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/437124-Reporting-a-Match-Engine-Problem

What SI will need is .pkms for affected matches, and for you to state when the incident occurs. In the thread you linked from GD, what SI want is examples of the far post full back on the opposite side to the AI ball carrier getting too tight to his DC. That opens a channel of space on the opposite flank which can be exposed when a switch of play happens. It's a perfectly legitimate means of scoring, this issue is the aesthetic impact of having a full back cuddling a DC when he should be covering his zone.

No worries, It can also show my cms hugging my fullbacks aswell yes?

Only if your system absolutely relies on that level of fluidity and creative freedom. I don't think it will be disastrous if you change. RT kept something like 10 clean sheets in a row in his Parma save, so if you are set up correctly and have the players then it's not going to be the end of the world and you can defend dominantly.

Also, I didn't intend for that thread to become the scapegoat for everyone's defensive mishaps. Yeah, I have some moments of moaning and whatnot about stupid behaviors and decisions, but I love the game and just want to see it presented in the best way possible. I understand it's incredibly complex and that things need to be balanced to make it all work together. Defending certainly works in FM16, like most things it could just be improved in some ways.

It actually seemed to shore up the defence in the few games I changed it to that, still kept a good attacking shape and playing some nice stuff.

I completely understand that, I love the game aswell, but when there are issues that are still plaguing the game, its only right to show it so it can be improved open, tiny tweaks can take along time to implement as you need to test all the code to find out where its conflicting, and it can have knock on effects to other bits of coding aswell. I dont for a second think it can be a quick fix, but it is affecting me, albeit more slightly hence why I referenced it.

Im studying games design and programming at college, so I do sympathise, Im not one of those folk to have a go, for the sake of having a go, thats just not right or fair.

I am thinking on designing a counter attacking tactic for europe where I am a significant underdog at the moment, any suggestions are welcome.

No worries, It can also show my cms hugging my fullbacks aswell yes?

That warrants its own thread. That's also one that hasn't been raised yet.

This is a new one for me, Deep Lying Playmaker on top of my CM D

The FM16 ME has some radical changes in it.

Playing any kind of attacking football is now a huge risk vs reward situation. You will create more scoring opportunities, but will almost magically make the other team better at scoring too.

As you noticed an attacking game is no longer a strong possession game, because your players take risk to create goals and those risk result in loosing possession.

I have my team on standard mentality, with a balanced support and attack roles, this result in my team playing possession football, opposing though ball's result in offsides or my defenders handling it, crosses usually get killed in the attempt or at least result in my defender clearing the ball. Now I flip my AML from IF/S to IF/A and bam, though balls receivers is no longer offside and my defenders doesn't intercept the pass, crosser succeed and actually hit an opposing player instead of my defenders clearing, I'm also having massive improved success in attack (Risk vs Reward).

I find that playing 90 minutes with an attacking setup is just stupid now, you want to risk it here and there, but not play entire games attacking.

The FM16 ME has some radical changes in it.

Playing any kind of attacking football is now a huge risk vs reward situation. You will create more scoring opportunities, but will almost magically make the other team better at scoring too.

As you noticed an attacking game is no longer a strong possession game, because your players take risk to create goals and those risk result in loosing possession.

I have my team on standard mentality, with a balanced support and attack roles, this result in my team playing possession football, opposing though ball's result in offsides or my defenders handling it, crosses usually get killed in the attempt or at least result in my defender clearing the ball. Now I flip my AML from IF/S to IF/A and bam, though balls receivers is no longer offside and my defenders doesn't intercept the pass, crosser succeed and actually hit an opposing player instead of my defenders clearing, I'm also having massive improved success in attack (Risk vs Reward).

I find that playing 90 minutes with an attacking setup is just stupid now, you want to risk it here and there, but not play entire games attacking.

I have taken all the suggestions on board, went with standard and structured, kept 3 clean sheets in a row which I havent done in ages, won all games 2-0 and my defence has never been threatened since, hopefully it continues.

I know this wasn't aimed at me but hope you don't mind me offering my opinions nonetheless as I too have struggled with the enganche role in FM. The Riquelme-worshipping romantic in me is desperate to make the role effective but sadly, it seems that it's just too static and perhaps even anachronistic to function as well as its competitor roles in the game. Even in the role's spiritual South American home, i've found that advanced playmaker is far more dangerous whilst also better achieving the aim of getting the designated player on the ball more often - so firstly, maybe reverting Armstrong back to an AP(s) would be an improvement. I know that using 2 central playmakers has been cited as not especially efficient up-thread but i've always found that a DLP on support or defend can complement an AP on support or attack pretty well in a midfield 3, provided there's a more defensive holder, as there is with Mulgrew in your set-up. I would however, definitely avoid pairing an AP with a RP.

Next, a couple of queries on personnel - has Bitton been sold? I'd suggest that' he's a far better fit for the DLP role than Johansen. Secondly, i'd definitely switch Commons and Zivkovic - the latter is your best player and a far more rounded, creative player than he's being allowed to be in the restrictive raumdeuter role (which is basically little more than a wide poacher. I'm not a fan of this role at all). I'd perhaps even attempt shifting your AP back as a CM(S) and setting Zivkovic as a wide playmaker from the right to maximise his time on the ball. Moving to a flat midfield 3 could actually be a decent option given the amount of attacking roles in wide areas - ideally, you want your central players deeper to pick these out, rather than having 1 running away from the ball.

Hi mate, sorry I kept meaning to reply to this, just kept slipping my mind.

No bitton has not been sold, I was just rotating players around to keep them fresh, as the spfl fixture list was pretty brutal, combined with europe. Zivkovic actually normally played on the if role on the right hand side, where he ran amok, again I think I was just rotating there. Will post a picture of what I have done post season.

I'd recommend you look at some of the information you have within the game. Have you looked at the Tactics -> Analysis -> Goals screen? Among other things, one of the usual elements of this analysis is showing where any assists come from. This should help you at least get a feel for where the trouble might be. You can then watch back some of the goals and identify the root cause. Might be worth posting it up to give us a clue

I'd recommend you look at some of the information you have within the game. Have you looked at the Tactics -> Analysis -> Goals screen? Among other things, one of the usual elements of this analysis is showing where any assists come from. This should help you at least get a feel for where the trouble might be. You can then watch back some of the goals and identify the root cause. Might be worth posting it up to give us a clue

I have not, thats a really good idea mate, I will do that tomorrow.

Been following this thread with interest as i manage a SPL side which regularly comes up against "defensive" opposition due to my teams standing withing the SPL, what changes have you made may i ask?

These are where I am conceeding goals from, and where I am scoring them from.

This is the fixture list for this season so far, did not have get stuck in up until the final 4 fixtures played, I also had a deeper back line then and was not playing offside. The hearts result was against a 4-2-3-1 and they just dominated me, I had no answer to them no matter what I done

This is how I have been playing in those final four games on the fixture list, the attacking play had improved slightly, and the defensive play seems solid, whether it will continue is another thing, does anyone have any input ?

Apart from playing a slightly different shape, my approach is more or less the same, playing slightly deeper but i have the same duties through the team and i have shored up my defence a fair bit. Just need to get the goals to come now.

This is how I have been playing in those final four games on the fixture list, the attacking play had improved slightly, and the defensive play seems solid, whether it will continue is another thing, does anyone have any input ?

Surely Allan should be switched with Biton? Also, unsure on how suitable Ciftci is for the wing.

Surely Allan should be switched with Biton? Also, unsure on how suitable Ciftci is for the wing.

I was in the middle of rotating the squad when it occured to me to take the screenshots, Ciftci actually plays pretty well on the wing, but he is not first choice. Usually Zivkovic and Armstrong or Gary MacKay Stevens.