4-1-2-2-1 - Attacking trio not dangerous enough

Hi guys. Playing, as always, with Liverpool. I'm not doing too badly, but my players are simply not lethal enough in the final third for my liking, and I can't really figure out why.

My tactic is like this:

Player instructions: Three central midfielders to shoot less often and close down more. Attacking trio "shoot less often"

A typical heatmap, this one from a 0-0 at Norwich:

Now, I've reached the end of December in my first season, and altho I do win most games and generally am doing well, I feel that most of my games are "lucky" wins. I'm typically defensively solid with only 11 goals conceded in 19 games, but it feels like I'm relying far too much on Suarez having a good day for me to get the goals. I've only managed to score 3 goals or more in 5 games so far

My main issue is that my IFs don't seem to really get the goals and assists my play is set up for - and Suarez has this odd tendency to simply shoot from out far instead of passing the ball to Cou or Sturridge.

Coutinho, playing on the left, has 20 games, 2 goals and 5 assists

Sturridge, on the right, has 18 games, 4 goals and 4 assists

Suarez, my false 9, has 15 games, 11 goals and 2 assists

Gerrard, my playmaker, 16 games, 3 goals, 3 assists

Henderson, my other central midfielder, 20 games, 3 goals, 2 assists.

My goal, in short, is to play more or less as the current Liverpool team does - fast-paced, high-pressing attacking game where the front three combine their way through opponent defensive lines.

I'm wondering if there's something obvious I'm missing here.

Well it looks like your midfielders are set to go forward a bit too much. Gerrard is going forward constantly because he's an advanced playmaker and Henderson is going back and forth as a BBM. Similar with Lucas as a Regista, he's going to be going forward as much as he can too. So there really isn't anyone to sit back in the midfield and spray the ball out wide for your wingers.

You should also know that if you're only in December then your tactic is probably not fully fluid yet, so maybe just give it time and your vision will become more clear. Another thing that might help is changing the roles of your attacking trio.

If you have 2 central midfielders pushing forward, it's probably not a good idea to also have 2 wide players cutting inside, plus the striker on support duty dropping deep as well. You end up with 5 players running into the same space.

Hmm.

So how about if I'd switch it about a bit:

DMC as Half back or anchor man, defensive

MCR as deep lying playmaker, support

MCL as attacking midfielder, support

FC as complete forward rather than false nine, to keep him a bit more forward

I'd be wary of using "Look for Overlap". It will cause your inside forwards to be less attack-minded, sit deeper and hold up the ball for the fullbacks.

You might try removing that shout and simply setting your fullbacks to attack duty, which will have them get forward without affecting the IFs.

I'd be wary of using "Look for Overlap". It will cause your inside forwards to be less attack-minded, sit deeper and hold up the ball for the fullbacks.

You might try removing that shout and simply setting your fullbacks to attack duty, which will have them get forward without affecting the IFs.

Hmm, interesting point - but won't it make my team far too attack-minded if I have both the backs and the IFs on attack duty?

I play pretty much the same shape, hassle opponents etc. but on the counter and sit deeper. Works a treat for keeping possession but then breaking with deadly speed when the opportunity arises.

I'd recommend trying any of the following, i've spent hours tinkering with this formation trying to get more out of my IFs and which other roles work and so i share your pain.

I would be to switch your Fullbacks to Wingback - Support and get them to stay wide, cross early and cross to the back post. This should give you some width and more space for the IFs to exploit

I'd then change your BBM to a BWM - Defend duty which will free up Gerrard and Lucas to create whilst Henderson or whoever gets the ball back. This position tends to be my highest passer.

Change the AP to Attack duty so that he gets forward more and can play the IFs in. Select roam from position in player instruction. This should help with you primary playmaker being marked out of the game.

Change the player instructions for the IF to stay narrower, roam from position, dribble more.

Switch Suarez to a complete forward - support. Now you might get the same results as a false nine but i find the CF works really well at pulling players out of position to create the space in behind for your IFs. He also weighs in with a few goals from balls over the top from the Regista or AP or from the wingbacks crosses.

I'd also maybe look at switching your fluidity to rigid or very rigid as you've got quite a few specialist roles in there. I know the worry is then that the IFs wont' defend at all but i find by selecting tight marking in the player instructions they'll muck in with defensive aspect.

Anyway just some thoughts but it took me ages to get this formation to work but now i have it's working a treat.

If it's of interest my formation is below:

What happens if you get rid of the shorter passing instruction? You may get more attacking through balls that way, and the off the ball movement of your front three could become more dangerous.

So.... my opinion.

You're playing Fluid with loads of specialists, which is ok if you really want to, but generally it's not advised + LFC tbh aren't a Fluid team - they very much retain their shape. I think Balanced is more suited to their game.

Mingolet doesn't have the "footballing" skills to be a Sweeper Keeper - he's a good GK, but that's it.

The DM role in the current LFC is clearly a Half Back (even when Gerrard plays there).

Suarez contributes so much to LFC's all around game and I think the F9 isn't best for him. I tend to use a CF(S).

I'd be inclined to have 1 of your wide men an IF(S) - personally I'd go with Coutinho as he's rarely seen running passed Suarez attacking the box. It's just not his game.

If you're playing IF's, I'd be inclined to play Wing Backs.... with a WB(A) behind Coutinho (see above).

No major issue with your middle 2 (I have this too, but I have my AP on Attack).

LFC's standout performances this year have been as a Counter-attacking side. I'm not sure you can reproduce this with Control as your default, but either Counter or Attacking could work.

I wouldn't use Look for Overlap unless you're playing against a narrow team (i.e. where they only have 1 wide man each side) & then I would generally couple it with Exploit the Flanks.

LFC don't generally spend ages trying to work an opening, so is Work Ball Into Box really a starting point... it may be something you could use in game if they're popping off too many long shots.

And finally.... think about some of the goals they've scored recently. Through balls from the likes of Coutinho and Gerrard to Sturridge & Sterling.... Pass Into Space perhaps?

So, based on all the suggestions in the thread so far, I've created this:

Got a few player instructions as well:

Keeper - distribute to defenders

Wing backs - shoot less often

half back - shoot less often

CM(A) - shoot less often, close down more

DLP - close down more

IFs - Roam from position

CF - Move into channels

Would I be better off having my CF on attack duty instead of support? I'm worried that both my CF, my left IF and my CMa are going into the same space as it is right now.

Im not sure but if you change him to attack, Coutinho would be the only supporting guy when you are attacking. Not sure if he can do everything on his own.

Would I be better off having my CF on attack duty instead of support? I'm worried that both my CF, my left IF and my CMa are going into the same space as it is right now.

That's really up to you - experiment with both, watch the match (at least Extended, my preference though is Comprehensive) and see for yourself. One option may be better when you're in Attack mode, another when you're countering. If your left side are all trying to use the same space, then think which you want to change. Your DLP wouldn't use the same space as an IF(S) for example, and a Winger wouldn't use the same space as a CM(A).

So, started a new save with the new and improved tactic, and I'm quite satisfied with the results.

I'm at work right now, so will verify the exact details later, but..

21 games into the Premier League (just passed January 1st in the first season), and I have 16 wins, 4 draws and 1 defeat (to Chelsea at Stamford Bridge).

I am dominating possession and shot in each game, getting a decent amount of CCCs as well.

Sturridge and Suarez are both doing well, as are my central midfielders.

I have the most goals scored in the league as well as the least goals conceded.

My only worry is my left inside forward, who's not really delivering the performance I want/expect, but I'm considering if it might be because Coutinho simply isn't all that good on the wing.

So, started a new save with the new and improved tactic, and I'm quite satisfied with the results.

I'm at work right now, so will verify the exact details later, but..

21 games into the Premier League (just passed January 1st in the first season), and I have 16 wins, 4 draws and 1 defeat (to Chelsea at Stamford Bridge).

I am dominating possession and shot in each game, getting a decent amount of CCCs as well.

Sturridge and Suarez are both doing well, as are my central midfielders.

I have the most goals scored in the league as well as the least goals conceded.

My only worry is my left inside forward, who's not really delivering the performance I want/expect, but I'm considering if it might be because Coutinho simply isn't all that good on the wing.

Did you make any more changes to the tactic in post #10?

Did you make any more changes to the tactic in post #10?

A little bit - I'll post the latest version when I come home from work - but from memory, I've changed my DM to Anchor Man due to the half back ME issues and the striker to AFa as I thought Suarez wasn't really in the game enough - his form has improved a lot since then, so it seems to have helped.

Can't remember if I've changed any of the shouts as well.

Now, mind you I am by no means any kind of a tactical wizard, however, with that formation, I have had some good goalscoring luck with wideplayers using winger(A) instead of Inside Forwards.

So, based on all the suggestions in the thread so far, I've created this:

Got a few player instructions as well:

Keeper - distribute to defenders

Wing backs - shoot less often

half back - shoot less often

CM(A) - shoot less often, close down more

DLP - close down more

IFs - Roam from position

CF - Move into channels

Would I be better off having my CF on attack duty instead of support? I'm worried that both my CF, my left IF and my CMa are going into the same space as it is right now.

... And in reply to post #13 specifically your Coutinho problems:

Firstly, which foot does he prefer to play with? I presume he is right footed, in which case he can most certainly do a job for you at AML judging by his stats at the start of the game.

Secondly, why is he on roam from position? The physical positioning of your primary creative outlet is of the utmost importance in attack. Unless you can justify him roaming from position, don't ask him to. Movement is great - it provides space, confuses opposition defenders, unsettles their tactics etc etc however roam from position for a wide player with a creative remit, during the attacking phase, invariably means they will dance around finding space (if they are intelligent enough) and render the advantages a wide creative player can have redundant. My first suggestion would be to not ask him to roam.

While playing FM13 I had tremendous, albeit unsurprising, success with Real Madrid and a player called Zakaria Labyad; he played AMR AP(s). His role in an El Classico (where he particularly excelled) was to sit deep, relatively narrow and run the show (we were, by some way, the best team in Europe at the time so Barcelona were underdogs). What was key to his role was the team selection around him and their roles.

His job, thinking back, was fairly simple however as mentioned it was made particularly effective by the players around him. On his attributes alone, he didn't stand out - he was certainly not the 'best' player in my side and probably didn't warrant a starting place. He was purchased to become a good squad player down the line after training and development. I can't remember the specific instructions with sliders etc however his role was not to advance too far forward but to sit slightly deeper and take advantage of movement around him.

I'd suggest you watch, say, the first half of a game where you would envisage your attacking players to have the freedom to do exactly as they please, a game you'd expect to win comfortably and Suarez et al would shine. Watch Countinho's movement. I would imagine that he is very much stifled; Jose Enrique is bombing up and down the flank and Henderson with an attacking duty is pushing into the space immediately to Countinho's right. This leaves him limited options that lead to him not having a high rating: Play simple passes to Jose Enrique and Henderson (he is playing short passes and doing it quickly as you have instructed) or be ineffective in attack as any space he may like to occupy is being pushed into by Aspas, Jose Enrique and Henderson. If he does indeed roam from position and get himself out of congested area then why position him on the flank at all? He won't double up against the opposition full back to create an overlap, he won't be able to play through the defence and his team mates trying to get into attacking positions aren't particularly gifted at doing so (Enrique and Aspas - granted Suarez is gifted but with an overload of players on the left Suarez is intelligent enough to stick slightly right and take advantage of balls coming in).

I gave my Zakaria Labyad example earlier because it fits in nicely here. I coupled him with an attacking full back who I wanted to get forward as much as possible. In FM14 this combination play is made very achievable with the option of asking Coutinho to 'sit narrower' and your full back to 'stay wider'. Three things (ideally) happen here: The opposition full back stays with your advancing full back and Coutinho has plenty of space to do as he pleases or the opposition full back stays with Coutinho and Enrique as plenty of space to do as he pleases or an opposition defensive midfielder comes across to help the opposition full back and you've dragged a key defensive player out of position and with Sturridge, Suarez and whomever your attacking central midfielder is ready to pounce it is a dangerous position for you in the most dangerous area of the pitch. Of course, this is all in an ideal world and you can, must, adapt your tactics in game.

The previous points focus solely on the combination play of your winger and full back. I haven't mentioned the central midfielders role in this ie Henderson. While watching Coutinho, take a look at Henderson. I would imagine that they do get in each others way and stop them both being at their most effective. I appreciate Coutinho is currently an IF(s) but for Liveprool it seems to me his skills lie in creating as oppose to dangerous, direct runs through the opposition which is something the IF role will always prioritise no matter the duty.

Try switching Henderson and Gerrard in central midfield so your DLP(s) is on Coutinho's side and your CM (a) is on Sturridge's. Try switching Henderson to AP(s) once he is on the right.

What, I hope, this change will do is switch emphasis. It looks like Sturridge is having a great run in the current line up so changing the support nature of the right sided CM is clearly not ideal - hence Henderson becoming AP(s). What having Gerrard on Coutinho's side will do is open up the ability for Coutinho to manoeuvre into open space inside the pitch giving him a chance to get that rating up with assists and more penetrating passes. If the option isn't on for Coutinho to make a dangerous pass forward, then he has a very accomplished central midfielder operating directly behind him to fall back on who in turn has further support.

This is of course all theory and in practice it may not work for whatever reason. I do feel it is a better set up to what you currently have if getting more out of Coutinho is a priority for you. If it isn't, I hope it comes in useful somewhere down the line. Please feel free to trial this and challenge me - this is a discussion after all and I think it would really fuel ideas for you and any other readers and help me adapt my ideas as I haven't attempted to utilise this creative-wide role on FM14 yet. I am enjoying playing with two fantastic WBs at Corinthians though - that may tie into this somewhere down the line too.

EDIT Have you thought of utilising the Defensive Winger role? That will encourage space behind the main attackers however you may need to negate the defensive aspects of that particular role with person instructions (if possible).

What a terrific post. JOSEPH!, you are more than welcome to apply your very creative and intelligent thinking to my weird 3-2-2-3! - I think it could be a fascinating read.

Thank you Displaced. I'm sure half way through it just comes across as absolute rabble but I hope it makes sense!

I have read your thread and was planning on posting; I really like the premise you've started off with. I hope I can help - my experience with the formation (or similar) is next to nil but I am always up for a discussion. It is much different to my approach in my current save so I hope to learn something!

I've been tinkering a bit with it, adapting based on your suggestions - and it might just be me, but I did feel Coutinho got more involved after the change - unfortunately he then got injured for 3 months, but we'll see how it works out in the new season

I've been tinkering a bit with it, adapting based on your suggestions - and it might just be me, but I did feel Coutinho got more involved after the change - unfortunately he then got injured for 3 months, but we'll see how it works out in the new season

Ah that is a real pain! I hope the suggestions are helpful anyway - sod's law I am afraid. Keep us informed of any interesting developments.

JOSEPH - Brilliant post! Just to be clear are you suggesting Coutinho should be an AP(S) rather than an IF(S)?

Thunder - Could you post your tactic with team and player instructions if possible? I'm really struggling with Liverpool on this year's game, it seems the more fluid my tactic familiarity is the worse I play.

JOSEPH - Brilliant post! Just to be clear are you suggesting Coutinho should be an AP(S) rather than an IF(S)?

Thunder - Could you post your tactic with team and player instructions if possible? I'm really struggling with Liverpool on this year's game, it seems the more fluid my tactic familiarity is the worse I play.

I managed to win both Premier League and FA Cup in the first season with basically the tactic that I've shown in #10 (Altho it looks like the picture has been removed from imageshack for some reason - I'll upload a new picture when I get home)

JOSEPH - Brilliant post! Just to be clear are you suggesting Coutinho should be an AP(S) rather than an IF(S)?

Thunder - Could you post your tactic with team and player instructions if possible? I'm really struggling with Liverpool on this year's game, it seems the more fluid my tactic familiarity is the worse I play.

Not necessarily in all cases but, in my opinion, Coutinho (or players similar) could be very effective in a creative role on the wings (whether that is an AP, IF, DW or otherwise if dependent on a lot of factors). Clearly Thunder is having plenty of success with the tactic he posted originally so it may be that getting the most out of Coutinho isn't a priority for him and the changes I discussed may benefit an individual's performance but not the team's.

Thunder - That would be great thanks.

JOSEPH - Appreciate your input. I've been considering using Coutinho as a wide AP for a while instead of retraining him as an AP in the CM area as I usually do. My plan is to start with Thunder's tactic and adapt it slightly depending on how Coutinho performs on the left wing.

I play pretty much the same shape, hassle opponents etc. but on the counter and sit deeper. Works a treat for keeping possession but then breaking with deadly speed when the opportunity arises.

I'd recommend trying any of the following, i've spent hours tinkering with this formation trying to get more out of my IFs and which other roles work and so i share your pain.

I would be to switch your Fullbacks to Wingback - Support and get them to stay wide, cross early and cross to the back post. This should give you some width and more space for the IFs to exploit

I'd then change your BBM to a BWM - Defend duty which will free up Gerrard and Lucas to create whilst Henderson or whoever gets the ball back. This position tends to be my highest passer.

Change the AP to Attack duty so that he gets forward more and can play the IFs in. Select roam from position in player instruction. This should help with you primary playmaker being marked out of the game.

Change the player instructions for the IF to stay narrower, roam from position, dribble more.

Switch Suarez to a complete forward - support. Now you might get the same results as a false nine but i find the CF works really well at pulling players out of position to create the space in behind for your IFs. He also weighs in with a few goals from balls over the top from the Regista or AP or from the wingbacks crosses.

I'd also maybe look at switching your fluidity to rigid or very rigid as you've got quite a few specialist roles in there. I know the worry is then that the IFs wont' defend at all but i find by selecting tight marking in the player instructions they'll muck in with defensive aspect.

Anyway just some thoughts but it took me ages to get this formation to work but now i have it's working a treat.

If it's of interest my formation is below:

Jamez, I've decided to give your tactic a try, and the major problem I'm having with it is that the opposition are getting in behind my wing backs far too easily due to them being fairly high up the pitch. Is this an issue you have, and if so, what do you do about it?

Right, so here is the version of the tactic I ended the season with:

TIs that can't be seen are:

Retain possession

Be more expressive (not sure about the worth of this one yet tho)

No OIs, but a few PIs:

Anchor man - play it shorter

AMR - roam from position, shoot less often

AML - shoot less often

FC - move into channels, shoot less often

Both central midfielders - close down more

With a decent result in difficult away ties, I'd typically change to a "counter" mentality, or even to my more defensive tactic

Now, defensively I ended up with the lowest amount of goals scored against me - something I do believe was largely because of almost no injuries among my defensive 6 - Skrtel, Agger, Johnson, Mignolet, Enrique and Lucas played almost all games.

Attack-wise, I did okay, but could certainly do better.

Daniel Sturridge on the right got 20 goals and 13 assists, Suarez up front bagged a total of 26 goals and 8 assists while Coutinho dissapointed with 1 goal and 4 assists - Sterling, who also mostly played on the left, got 4 goals and 4 assists. Henderson, my attacking central midfielder, got 5 goals and 13 assists - so generally everything seems to go quite well, except the left wing. Enrique, my LWB, only got 1 goal and 3 assists, so it's not as if he's taking over the assists from that side either.

Thanks Thunder, it's not far off the tactic I created today based on what you and Joseph were saying. My main difference is I have Enrique staying wider and Coutinho sitting narrower as an AP(S). I was also sitting deeper and playing counter but I'm gonna try your attacking set up.

This is what I'm currently using, which is more supposed to be an aggressive Counter Attacking tactic based around the 5-1 demolition of Arsenal recently...

PI wise...

GK - Take Quick Throws

HB - Tackle Harder (+ More Direct Passes if Gerrard, who I'm retraining as a DM positionally & have him focussed on the HB role)

B2B & AP both have Close Down More

WTM has none for most, but Shoot Less Often if Sturridge & Roam + Dribble More if Suarez

CF - it's default is CF(A) with Move Into Channels, but have added Shoot Less Often if Sturridge & the role is CF(S) + Roam if Suarez.

I had some success with this in FMC, finishing 4th & 2nd in respective seasons, so I'm now using in the full game... currently 3rd.

In game, the changes I may consider, depending on circumstance, are -

Changing to Attack for a short spell of extra intensity,

Dropping the tempo and/or d-line to either create some space or just have a rest when comfortably winning,

Using Exploit the Flanks & Look for Overlap if playing against a very narrow formation.

That's about it really.