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Thread: Tactics FM14

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Payaso View Post
    Yes, some of the players can make mistakes but the problem is that when you learn to use things that really work in the game, it's really hard to make things wrong. I've always been succesful with tactics creator but since FM 2011 when I have touched the sliders to change the style of play I've only managed to mess the working tactic up.

    If things completely break this is likely more to do with your (wrong) interpretation of key sliders than anything. Take for instance the TC's concepts of "strategies" and "philsophy" which are based on SI-approved community theories of yore. The theory was that for a team to play with a coherent style and shape the mentality notches needn't be further apart in each team than this many clicks. Now take the concept of "duties". It links most roles and positions to runs from deep, that is movement and shape. Both forward movement between the lines and forward players "dropping into space" which both adds linking options in attack and helps to trouble defenses rather than keeping the shape of a team completely static. At which point you solely rely on hopefully superior attributes of your forwards to regularly cause trouble to a defense, either by having great players from the start or (the popular route) scouting and nurturing fabulous re-gens. These are arguably the two sliders with which you can completely royally mess up, as these are very sensitive, and this was knowledge that was communicated to the community way before the TC ever was. (The TC was introduced for FM 2010 in 2009.)

    Furthermore, yes, you can try to make Brentford play like Barcelona, but as attributes are weighted in, it usually means it won't be as effective. Players of lesser skill are for instance favored and hard-coded to hit more direct balls more often (you will find patch notes on that), in particular under pressure. Likewise there is usually a reason why there is an in-game advice telling you a more direct approach might be preferable in lower leagues and with lesser skill. Whilst there might be means of micro control taken away of the player, if that is the case, I remain optimisitic, as focusing the tweaks of the ME on a limited number of concepts means the tweaks can be based around those concepts, rather than an indefinitve number of slider tweaks. I.e. according to Paul Collyer his wish was for the roles to be much more distinguishable on-pitch, which would certainly make for a deeper game experience rather than a shallower one. Those tweaks would go two ways, as the AI is employing the TC too. Doing such requires a bigger shift towards these concepts though, and that is where the changes for FM 2014 might step in. Might step in. We haven't really seen what the tactics UI looks like.

    Oh, and Tankqull, if these are still your tactics you likely will benefit from learning to think holistically and approaching the thing logically rather than slider willy-nilly too. Doing so will bring you a tad better results right from the start, not from the moment in which you have class forwards that make up for the completely static shape and disrupted mentality of your team.
    Last edited by Svenc; 05-09-2013 at 18:23.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tankqull View Post
    so now we will have roles but the explanation aka sliders will been taken away... great stuff.
    The explanation of that role is still there. The sliders, it seems, might be gone.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Svenc View Post
    If things completely break this is likely more to do with your (wrong) interpretation of key sliders than anything.
    Well not completely break but as I said the games become boring. That is basically down to fact that players just don't do creative things in the match engine. I have a lot of situations where a creative pass would result in a goal but haven't seen too many of those in late versions of the game. This is of course more down to the match engine than tactical side of the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Svenc View Post
    Furthermore, yes, you can try to make Brentford play like Barcelona, but as attributes are weighted in, it usually means it won't be as effective. Players of lesser skill are for instance favored and hard-coded to hit more direct balls more often (you will find patch notes on that), in particular under pressure.
    This is once again one thing that I would certainly like to see changed. Some kind of "gamebook" thinking would be an excellent addition for team instructions. With your team you could agree certain things that your players would always try to follow. For example playing out of the trouble instead of hitting a long ball under pressure. Yes, it could result in loss of the possession but at least they would do the things in a way that you as a manager would like them to try. Of course you could give different kind of instructions for different situations; I maybe wouldn't like to see playing out of the trouble in injury time leading 1-0.

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    I still do not quite see why we are having an issue with a player being given a role, and we then as the manager adapt the role to what we want that player to do.

    I put up the team sheet with a 442, the players on that sheet have an idea of what role each position represents. As a manger I may then speak to each player (tweak the sliders) telling them exactly the role I want them to play.

    It seems that there is some dissent to the idea that they were given a role to begin with, but any player would have some understanding of what is expected of them as soon as they see the team sheet. They wouldn't be named in the middle of the pitch and expect to be storming into the box unless told to do so, as an example.

    I just do not see the simplification. The focus has shifted from individuals to teams. We have had people mention reality, well it is absolutely not realistic to set every single thing a player is expected to do notch by notch.

    Then after making criticism off adjusting preconceived individual roles the idea of a gamebook is floated, which is essentially a team role for certain situations. I would not be against that, but are you not again just tweaking preconceived ideas?.

    Also, I am not sure at why people also assume that Miles know nothing. He talks about talking to people involved in football and people suggest he must have talked to morons.

    I agree that the game is being tailored to be more friendly for newer players, but I have not seen how the more advanced players are missing out. I agree that training is now almost understated. I think that will be revamped again in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by siambluebird View Post
    I still do not quite see why we are having an issue with a player being given a role, and we then as the manager adapt the role to what we want that player to do.
    It's getting quite boring explaining these things to everyone. I have maybe like three reasons why it is an issue.
    1) Roling isn't like that in real football. You can't just pick a role out of the air, you will have to "make" that role yourself by giving instructions. In the game it's kinda like upside down.
    2) You can adapt the role but you don't have to as those roles work in the game because the match engine is propably coded to work with these pre-made roles. That means that you will have to use maybe like 3-5 minutes to create a fully working style of play and you are propably not going to improve that style of play with micro tweaking.
    3) Pre-made roles are made by the game, not me. What makes it my tactic then when I use those roles? Really big issue to me as I want to make my style of play myself.

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    Given the limited level of detail in the ME and the TC reflecting that, how would you improve player roling?

    I mean, in the current level of detail, every manager would instruct their defensive midfielder with the same pre-existing roles with small tweaks that can be covered by the new features in FM14. The roles are shortcuts for your convenience.

    The roles do not affect your ability to make your team play like you really want. You can't make your own style of play because the ME doesn't allow that kind of user input.

  7. #107
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    Well, it seems there will be a video up for the new tactics system today, so we will see.

    It's not as if this debate would be anything new. There have been "classic" tactics vs. creator discussions all over the place every since the latter was introduced. I'm not surprised they aren't as common anymore, as most people quickly adapted and most have struggled with the sliders anyway. In one of the more bigger recent threads on this I found a couple posts by Paul Collyer, who has been the man behind the ME nuts and bolts ever since.

    He can understand both sides of the argument.

    However he also outlines very nicely what it would mean could he focus on roles, duties and other concepts*, rather than players making everything up themselves:

    What it means is I cannot say for example:

    if( is_advanced_playmaker )
    {
    do_this;
    }

    but of course I can say:

    if( try_through_balls_often )
    {
    do_that;
    }

    etc
    What is he is saying is that by being able to tweak towards a finite number of concepts rather than an "infinite" number of unpredictable combination of individual instructions, he could make roles far more visibly distinguishable than they are now.

    And he goes on to conclude this:

    My problem with humans creating customised roles is that they will always be the pioneers, whereas FM is a football world where you are incidental rather than the world being incidental to you. At least that is the ethos we started from back in the day. Its the same reason I have never supported a true set piece editor.
    Maybe this was all a little moot anyway, and the Eurogamer interview made it sound far more drastic a change for "classic" players than it is.



    * It's easy to forget that roles are but one thing in the TC, they're being dropped into mentality and creative freedom frameworks already outlined by strategies and philosophies before, and duties influence individual instructions further, as do shouts and team modifiers. It's a dynamic system, and as such many of the shouts/modifiers simply couldn't be implemented into a classic system in which the player sets and defines everything himself.
    Last edited by Svenc; 06-09-2013 at 12:47.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Svenc View Post
    * It's easy to forget that roles are but one thing in the TC, they're being dropped into mentality and creative freedom frameworks already outlined by strategies and philosophies before, and duties influence individual instructions further, as do shouts and team modifiers. It's a dynamic system, and as such many of the shouts/modifiers simply couldn't be implemented into a classic system in which the player sets and defines everything himself.
    Can you give an example of a shout that could not be implemented into a classic tactic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by däkkä View Post
    Given the limited level of detail in the ME and the TC reflecting that, how would you improve player roling?
    Good question but really hard to say. Verbal instructions mixed with movement and passing options in different situations and of course closing down options, those are things that I would at least like to influence. This would of course need improvements to the match engine also so that things like high closing down would appear also. I have never seen real high closing down in the game and I've played it since version 2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Payaso View Post
    Good question but really hard to say. Verbal instructions mixed with 1. movement and 2. passing options in different situations and of course 3. closing down options, those are things that I would at least like to influence. This would of course need improvements to the match engine also so that things like high closing down would appear also. I have never seen real high closing down in the game and I've played it since version 2007.
    1, 2 and 3 you seem to be able to do now in FM14 if I remember the screenshots correctly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HUNT3R View Post
    1, 2 and 3 you seem to be able to do now in FM14 if I remember the screenshots correctly.
    It's really difficult to imagine that all of a sudden you are able to affect the player's movements on the ground and how or to who players will pass in certain situations and once again these things should also be seen in the match engine instead of random events. If those would really happen, it would be a huge thing. I don't think that it could happen just between 13 and 14 version.

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    Sorry, my mistake.. I read that wrong. You can't set your players up in specific situations.

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSQlm...ature=youtu.be

    The new video blog, is very interesting! So, no more slidders for player instructions.

    Very curious about team instructions now. Did SI remove those too?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keyzer Soze View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSQlm...ature=youtu.be

    The new video blog, is very interesting! So, no more slidders for player instructions.

    Very curious about team instructions now. Did SI remove those too?
    Pause it at 0:42, on the right hand side, you see an edit button. suspect we edit Team instructions there.

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    4:25. Best news ever, more info about player's responses to team talks!

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    The sliders were done away with specifically because SI consulted with real-life managers and found them to be unrealistic and determined that the TC is actually much more analogous to the way managers give player instructions.

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    You could be right!

    Really hope that we can still adjust the D-Line or the width with slidders, and not just by shouts. It's always something that i've find odd. People that like "shouts" always say "just preset a shout at the beggining of every game if you want to reduce D-Line"

    And i think, ok this is something like... in real life... a manager is training all week with a certain D-Line position... comes the weekend..... 5 minuts to the kickoff..... "****... wait... hey guys... i forgot.... D-Line.... 4 steps down!!!!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Payaso View Post
    It's getting quite boring explaining these things to everyone. I have maybe like three reasons why it is an issue.
    1) Roling isn't like that in real football. You can't just pick a role out of the air, you will have to "make" that role yourself by giving instructions. In the game it's kinda like upside down.
    2) You can adapt the role but you don't have to as those roles work in the game because the match engine is propably coded to work with these pre-made roles. That means that you will have to use maybe like 3-5 minutes to create a fully working style of play and you are propably not going to improve that style of play with micro tweaking.
    3) Pre-made roles are made by the game, not me. What makes it my tactic then when I use those roles? Really big issue to me as I want to make my style of play myself.
    I understood your reasons but
    1) I disagree. As I stated earlier, players understand their role in the team. You as the manager set the role and then adjust. That is not plucking it out of the air. You just do not want to adjust the role from what I can make out. I get what you mean, but I just don't see it in the same way.
    2) You are guessing that things are coded to work according to the roles. I don't have evidence against that theory, but there is none for it. I do however have a lot of evidence that improving on my tactics has made my team perform better which has included doing what a manger does and setting a role that I want my player to use.
    3) Pre-made roles can be adjusted. I think this is where I am saying "I don't get the problem". You are suggesting a Target Man Attack will play the same way no matter adjustments are made. I don't see that in my game.

    Because of this I think you can see why some people are unsure of what you are actually saying is the problem. Also, how would you like to see it improved then.

    It is true we can't get players to do certain things in exact situations, but this is a game. Perhaps in the future we may get near that, but then of course player mental attributes would mean that often players would not do as instructed, which would infuriate people as well. Football is not a game of total control.

    Edit: Just watched the vid. Looks very good! As Miles said consultation with people involved in the game.
    Last edited by siambluebird; 06-09-2013 at 15:02.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keyzer Soze View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSQlm...ature=youtu.be

    The new video blog, is very interesting! So, no more slidders for player instructions.

    Very curious about team instructions now. Did SI remove those too?
    I hated sliders so this is good news

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    Team instructions are done via what were called "touchline shouts" previously, but set before the match. As are fluidity and mentality.

    As it says in the video, individual player shouts are also now possible, and these over-rule team instructions.

    And yes, lots of coaches and managers were consulted about these changes at various levels of pro and semi-pro football, and people who coach coaches. Those conversations have been going on for multiple years, but it was Paul's decision to make the changes now to have one unified system, and it's a decision that I agree with completely.

    The possible combinations are huge. People need to remember that we're trying to make a simulation of football management. The sliders didn't give us that. The new unified system does.

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    Thks for the input Miles.

    Can we, save tactics, like in previous versions? For example, can we set our formation, players roles, edit the players and team instructions (via the new system), and then save the tactic?

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    Now that this is a done deal, like some, I'm interested what this might mean for ME balancing and variety of certain play. I very much like in how Miles in the video told his striker to individually press less to make the striker oppose general aggressive closing down team instructions, which he is doing so that the striker won't close the GK down at every opportunity (probably for tactical reasons, probably purely to conserve energy). I'm curious whether that actually distinguishly happens then (provided the striker isn't Kuyt and similar, mind), and if the focus on concepts in this case (and the roles) sees more visibly distinguishable play, as closing down behavior in my opinion used to be one of the areas of the ME with the least variation. Even moreso prior to 2013, as 2012 and before always had a single player closing down the ball carrier, and that single player used to close down pretty much always regardless. Except for the keeper - I don't think I've ever seen a keeper being closed down in FM 2012 (and prior) full-stop. I was surprised to see it in 2013.


    That ME tweaks now can be focused on a set number of concepts (which nonetheless can be combined in a ton of ways) rather than each tweak having to take an infinite number of slider combinations in mind hopefully really means the shift will prove beneficial in terms of match play too. More varied match play and better distinguishable roles, fluidity, etc. = more depth.

    Quote Originally Posted by däkkä View Post
    Can you give an example of a shout that could not be implemented into a classic tactic?
    Purely in terms of how the mechanics are set up? Each of them in which the player sets the instructions manually, in classic mode this means all of them. If manual tweaks wouldn't reign supreme, they weren't working as intended, as manual tweaks by the very definition are there for them to be prioritized above most else.

    In terms of concept and dynamics, some might work ok, some not so much, as some sliders are linked to each other. In such, say having manually tweaked your d-line to be aggressive and apply a "stand off more" modifier which might minimize closing down could result in the opponent having too much time on the ball to play perfect through balls over the top of your last defender.




    edit: Re, the video, the brief glimpses of match action show keepers standing on the wrong end of their goal when defending a direct free kick twice. That is right in the corner shielded by the wall rather than at the free post a GK would usually cover! The goal at 4:55 is gifted this way.
    Last edited by Svenc; 06-09-2013 at 18:17.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keyzer Soze View Post
    Thks for the input Miles.

    Can we, save tactics, like in previous versions? For example, can we set our formation, players roles, edit the players and team instructions (via the new system), and then save the tactic?
    The video, I believe, said you could I am really excited about this whole development!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keyzer Soze View Post
    Sometimes, when reading some threads, i think people forget that FM is a game...

    If some of FM users, would play games like call of duty... what would they expect? Real guns and blood?
    Whaaat the guns and blood aren't real, next your be telling us the 16 year old we nurtured through the youth and reserves ranks and turned him into a world class striker is in our imagination. !!!! no I say, without Freddy Wheater England will never win the World Cup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Svenc View Post
    Purely in terms of how the mechanics are set up? Each of them in which the player sets the instructions manually, in classic mode this means all of them. If manual tweaks wouldn't reign supreme, they weren't working as intended, as manual tweaks by the very definition are there for them to be prioritized above most else.
    They wouldn't need to be.

    In terms of concept and dynamics, some might work ok, some not so much, as some sliders are linked to each other. In such, say having manually tweaked your d-line to be aggressive and apply a "stand off more" modifier which might minimize closing down could result in the opponent having too much time on the ball to play perfect through balls over the top of your last defender.
    Why would it minimize closing down? That's not what the shout does. The decrements that 'Stand-off more' causes are based on the starting values of CD and d-line sliders ie they are regular. If your starting classic tactic was balanced and well thought out nothing could go wrong with any of the shouts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by däkkä View Post
    Why would it minimize closing down? That's not what the shout does. The decrements that 'Stand-off more' causes are based on the starting values of CD and d-line sliders ie they are regular. If your starting classic tactic was balanced and well thought out nothing could go wrong with any of the shouts.
    Stand-off always minimizes closing down from any instruction beforehand (and adjusts tempo slightly as well as changing marking to a loose one). It even overrides team instructions such as "pressing: more aggressive". It's the opposite instruction to "hassle opponents". Shouts as well as other modifiers, as you noticed, are dynamic and based on where the sliders are notched in the first place. This starting position depends on the strategy chosen, the philosophy, the roles, the duties, etc. Even if a player's tweaks wouldn't be prioritized: It would be still unpredictable where you actually end up for SI. Which kind of defeats the purpose to it all, everything being a part of a coherent dynamic system that is supposed to encourage play as it "says on the tin", rather than an isolated tweak based on an infinite number of settings SI have no influence on.

    At least personally I think that's where the issue is, apart from the mechanics, your tweaks being prioritized (see above), which could have been optionally changed for classic, if you insist on it. Still, if you adjust sliders manually sensibly, all might still be quite well. But for everyone else it could result in quite a mess. Picking up on that, you could then insist on a "classic" shout system which lets you simply define shouts yourself based on your manually tweaked instructions. But shouts, as they currently are, in such a manually tweaked environment would defeat the purpose of the dynamics behind the system.
    Last edited by Svenc; 07-09-2013 at 13:38.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles Jacobson View Post
    Team instructions are done via what were called "touchline shouts" previously, but set before the match. As are fluidity and mentality.

    As it says in the video, individual player shouts are also now possible, and these over-rule team instructions.
    At last! This one is a MASSIVE step forward for me both in terms of realism and playability.

    Now I can instruct the team to tackle hard and shout to individuals to ease off when they pick up yellow cards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Svenc View Post
    Stand-off always minimizes closing down from any instruction beforehand (and adjusts tempo slightly as well as changing marking to a loose one). It even overrides team instructions such as "pressing: more aggressive". It's the opposite instruction to "hassle opponents". Shouts as well as other modifiers, as you noticed, are dynamic and based on where the sliders are notched in the first place. This starting position depends on the strategy chosen, the philosophy, the roles, the duties, etc. Even if a player's tweaks wouldn't be prioritized: It would be still unpredictable where you actually end up for SI. Which kind of defeats the purpose to it all, everything being a part of a coherent dynamic system that is supposed to encourage play as it "says on the tin", rather than an isolated tweak based on an infinite number of settings SI have no influence on.

    At least personally I think that's where the issue is, apart from the mechanics, your tweaks being prioritized (see above), which could have been optionally changed for classic, if you insist on it. Still, if you adjust sliders manually sensibly, all might still be quite well. But for everyone else it could result in quite a mess. Picking up on that, you could then insist on a "classic" shout system which lets you simply define shouts yourself based on your manually tweaked instructions. But shouts, as they currently are, in such a manually tweaked environment would defeat the purpose of the dynamics behind the system.
    Ah, I was thinking about the TC team instruction not the shout... Regardless of that, what do you mean by the bolded part? I mean the system is pretty rigid in that a value of 10 becomes 7, a value less than 7 is decremented by one etc. and this applies to tempo, individual passing, all the works. It doesn't take into account what strategy or philosophy or passing style you have chosen. As far as I have gathered, only the number matters.

    Of course it would create unpredictable combinations if your starting classic tactic was an utter mess with illogical mentality frame etc, but for me the possibility to create your own frameworks would (have) be(en) a neat feature. Obviously SI have chosen a different path. Should probably move on

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    We all have to, eventually, it seems. It might have actually been possible. As for the shouts as they are, for some it's a bit more complicated though, I fear. Strategy for instance also influences passing patterns, as does the team modifier, so the starting point is based on multiple input here too. In a defensive strategy, defending players are encouraged to clear the lines, and attacking players to lay off more easy passes, in attacking strategies it's vice versa, the defense players are encouraged to recycle possession and lay off the ball to the attacking players, and the attacking players are encouraged to go a bit more direct. And in "balanced" ones it's fairly mixed.

    The current shouts themselves may be fairly straightforward in what they do. But it's those dynamic starting points from which they pick up being replaced by many many possible and unpredictable tweaks that would prove a challenge, I guess...

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    I never touched the sliders but found them useful when creating a tactic to simply just look at the settings.

    I could clearly see how wide or quick I was playing, If my d-line was really high, How direct my players passing was, how hard the tackling is and other specific settings when I wasn't really sure what a certain role fully did.

    It's a bit disappointing to lose that.

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    As the sliders are now gone I will have to ask this; is it still possible to make your players to mark spesific opponent and mark tightly or not tightly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Payaso View Post
    As the sliders are now gone I will have to ask this; is it still possible to make your players to mark spesific opponent and mark tightly or not tightly?
    Looks sort of like it. If you watch the video back closely, you can see the Mark Tighter option on the full back, but I couldn't see mark specific opponent.
    I'm sure that must be in there somewhere, as specific man marking is rather important!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RTHerringbone View Post
    Looks sort of like it. If you watch the video back closely, you can see the Mark Tighter option on the full back, but I couldn't see mark specific opponent.
    I'm sure that must be in there somewhere, as specific man marking is rather important!
    The mark specific player option is set on the match screen on FM13 I think, it could be the same for FM14

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    Quote Originally Posted by RTHerringbone View Post
    Looks sort of like it. If you watch the video back closely, you can see the Mark Tighter option on the full back, but I couldn't see mark specific opponent.
    I'm sure that must be in there somewhere, as specific man marking is rather important!
    Pause at 2:00, you can see that it's on there

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    Quote Originally Posted by shnen View Post
    Pause at 2:00, you can see that it's on there
    Nice one, good spot. So looks like we can influence shooting, dribbling, wide play, pass length, pass riskiness (creative freedom?), horizontal and vertical positioning, roaming AND player swapping and tackling via these buttons?
    Just sliders without 20 increments in a style that's more consistent with the TC. That works for me.

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    Miles said "Formally known as Touchline shouts" at one point. Does that mean they have taken this away now when in the match. I'm a slider man and never got on with shouts. I like what I see on the video about setting up the players and tweaking in game so am hoping shouts have gone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigFW View Post
    Miles said "Formally known as Touchline shouts" at one point. Does that mean they have taken this away now when in the match. I'm a slider man and never got on with shouts. I like what I see on the video about setting up the players and tweaking in game so am hoping shouts have gone.
    I'm pretty sure that shouts are here to stay.

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    After thinking there are maybe two major things that I'm afraid of with this new tactics system.

    1) All virtual managers are using more and more same kind of tactics. Of course there are loads of variations in game but are there enough working variations?
    2) The game goes more from managers' game to players' game. In previous games when for example your defence was leaking; you started doing small adjustments with sliders to get it more balanced again. Now when your defence leaks; there's not much to do but to buy better players? One of the main satisfaction in the game for me has been those situations where I've been able to get the best out of decent, not excellent players. Don't see these kind of things happening with the new tactics system.

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    I'm ok with the removal of sliders, should help making the game more fluid and less mechanical.

    My only 'fear' is...now I have to totally trust SI Games idea of football and especially players roles! For example their idea of Trequartista differs quite a bit from mine (no offense, I suspect Trequartista is not really a familiar concept in British football)

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Payaso View Post
    After thinking there are maybe two major things that I'm afraid of with this new tactics system.

    1) All virtual managers are using more and more same kind of tactics. Of course there are loads of variations in game but are there enough working variations?
    2) The game goes more from managers' game to players' game. In previous games when for example your defence was leaking; you started doing small adjustments with sliders to get it more balanced again. Now when your defence leaks; there's not much to do but to buy better players? One of the main satisfaction in the game for me has been those situations where I've been able to get the best out of decent, not excellent players. Don't see these kind of things happening with the new tactics system.
    I also had the same thought on your second point. I suppose one could argue that this could be more 'realistic'. You might get a good run here and there but clubs like West Ham are never going to be regular top 4 EPL in the next 5-10 years. Not without money to buy the better players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Payaso View Post
    After thinking there are maybe two major things that I'm afraid of with this new tactics system.

    1) All virtual managers are using more and more same kind of tactics. Of course there are loads of variations in game but are there enough working variations?
    2) The game goes more from managers' game to players' game. In previous games when for example your defence was leaking; you started doing small adjustments with sliders to get it more balanced again. Now when your defence leaks; there's not much to do but to buy better players? One of the main satisfaction in the game for me has been those situations where I've been able to get the best out of decent, not excellent players. Don't see these kind of things happening with the new tactics system.
    There must be a way to adjust! Is not with slidders, with some other system. I feel quite confident about that.

    "Team instructions are done via what were called "touchline shouts" previously, but set before the match. As are fluidity and mentality." by Miles

    So theres must be a new system, perhaps similar with the new player instruction system, that allow us to adjust things like D-Line or Width. And after that system, you still have "shouts" to adjust your tactic during the game.

    I just wish that SI explain better this, but i guess we'll have to wait for a new blog or the demo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RTHerringbone View Post
    Nice one, good spot. So looks like we can influence shooting, dribbling, wide play, pass length, pass riskiness (creative freedom?), horizontal and vertical positioning, roaming AND player swapping and tackling via these buttons?
    Just sliders without 20 increments in a style that's more consistent with the TC. That works for me.
    This for me also. Thank god sliders look to have gone.

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    If roling and creating a style of play is really that simple that you can just tell players to play certain role, why are teams like Manchester United and Chelsea playing so badly? Both teams have world-class individuals but still as a team especially Chelsea are rarely playing entertaining or creative football. Chelsea have been 'boring' and predictable since they won the double in 09/10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Payaso View Post
    If roling and creating a style of play is really that simple that you can just tell players to play certain role, why are teams like Manchester United and Chelsea playing so badly? Both teams have world-class individuals but still as a team especially Chelsea are rarely playing entertaining or creative football. Chelsea have been 'boring' and predictable since they won the double in 09/10.
    Because "roling" and creating a style of play doesn't = win.

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    I don't understand why people dislike the sliders so much. Sliders are a way of telling the ME how you want your players to behave. 'Word instructions' or shouts also do that. Why assume that words are better? Words are just different. Of course, in real life, words would be more logical than sliders because, in real life, we prefer to communicate with words rather than numbers. It doesn't mean we couldn't use numbers in real life if we wanted to. The point is, don't think because we are getting away from sliders, that the tactical system has improved. The only thing that improves the tactic system is, "Does the new system offer more control for how you want your players to play than the old system?" Right now, the answer for me is a maybe. More roles (even if they are preset) is a way of increasing the amount of control you have on your player. But until we actually use the new tactics system, we won't know whether things have overall improved or not in terms of control. However, this argument of getting rid of the sliders is not necessarily the answer to get a better system. I mean, what do people want to do that sliders do not allow you to do that can only be expressed with words? I can't think of a single thing. Put the focus back on whether or not the tactics system allows more control of the players. One thing I can say is that when you are clicking on an instruction and you are not sure exactly what it is supposed to do, that is definitely not more control. And this is a problem that can exist either with sliders or with words. So how can you allow a manager to understand exactly what he is choosing to do even if his tactics are bad? If the answer is switching from sliders to words, then you haven't answered the question because, instead of "What is 14 mentality?", the manager is now wondering "If I tell my players to 'Run Less Often', how much less is 'Less often' supposed to be?" The good news with a move away from sliders, though, is that since PPMs use words, it would make sense for tactics to also use words, just in terms of consistency.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Payaso View Post
    After thinking there are maybe two major things that I'm afraid of with this new tactics system.

    1) All virtual managers are using more and more same kind of tactics. Of course there are loads of variations in game but are there enough working variations?
    2) The game goes more from managers' game to players' game. In previous games when for example your defence was leaking; you started doing small adjustments with sliders to get it more balanced again. Now when your defence leaks; there's not much to do but to buy better players? One of the main satisfaction in the game for me has been those situations where I've been able to get the best out of decent, not excellent players. Don't see these kind of things happening with the new tactics system.
    I agree your first point would be a worry. I think Miles addressed that in one of the videos stating that more work had been done on creating AI manager styles. We will have to see how it pans out.
    As for point 2, I do not see how you reached this conclusion? Now we will be given our defenders instructions which we hope will plug those gaps.

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    The tactical system in FM14 will be what makes or breaks the game for me. I ditched FM13, because there was no new system. Hoping FM14 will provide more control and allow you to play the (not so common tactics - actually getting quite common again) with libero, defensive midfielders dropping deep into defense for build up, central defenders going wide in 3 man defence setup etc. Sliders are gone, which is fine by me, aslong as there are other ways to make up for it.

    I'm surprised there are no news on these things. Guess patience is the name of the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HUNT3R View Post
    Because "roling" and creating a style of play doesn't = win.
    Did I say anything about winning? I was talking about how badly they generally play. In FM it is just easy to put Torres into "Advanced Forward"-role and see him dominating most of the AI defences. In real life none Chelsea striker has scored goals for fun since Drogba's 09/10 season. And they have had some quality strikers... Sturridge is scoring loads of goals in Liverpool but didn't manage to do that in Chelsea (when playing as a striker, on the flank he was excellent when playing at his best). It isn't a coincidence.

    In real football management you run into these kinds of problems, like Fellaini being too slow playing in two man midfiled and not being good enough to play in attacking midfielder position. In FM you can escape these by being big enough team to "scare" smaller opponents trying to play at their best against you and your players are likely to have high enough CA to perform in most of the games.
    Last edited by El Payaso; 01-10-2013 at 12:44.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Payaso View Post
    Did I say anything about winning? I was talking about how badly they generally play. In FM it is just easy to put Torres into "Advanced Forward"-role and see him dominating most of the AI defences. In real life none Chelsea striker has scored goals for fun since Drogba's 09/10 season. And they have had some quality strikers... Sturridge is scoring loads of goals in Liverpool but didn't manage to do that in Chelsea (when playing as a striker, on the flank he was excellent when playing at his best). It isn't a coincidence.

    In real football management you run into these kinds of problems, like Fellaini being too slow playing in two man midfiled and not being good enough to play in attacking midfielder position. In FM you can escape these by being big enough team to "scare" smaller opponents trying to play at their best against you and your players are likely to have high enough CA to perform in most of the games.
    Now we're going down a completely different path. Torres playing badly has nothing to do with tactics or his role. He has had dips in form (or maybe he isn't as good as he was) but he has had goal scoring chances. He's missed wide open goals. His touches have been bad. That has nothing to do with tactics/formations/roles. He is either not as good as on FM anymore or it is a confidence issue. It isn't a tactical issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HUNT3R View Post
    Now we're going down a completely different path. Torres playing badly has nothing to do with tactics or his role. He has had dips in form (or maybe he isn't as good as he was) but he has had goal scoring chances. He's missed wide open goals. His touches have been bad. That has nothing to do with tactics/formations/roles. He is either not as good as on FM anymore or it is a confidence issue. It isn't a tactical issue.
    There are also Samuel Eto'o and Demba Ba in the team. Lukaku couldn't score for them and Sturridge couldn't score for them and they are both scoring when playing for other clubs. The fact that Chelsea's strikers aren't scoring is because of their style of play, not because their individuals are bad players, that's a fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Payaso View Post
    Did I say anything about winning? I was talking about how badly they generally play. In FM it is just easy to put Torres into "Advanced Forward"-role and see him dominating most of the AI defences. In real life none Chelsea striker has scored goals for fun since Drogba's 09/10 season. And they have had some quality strikers... Sturridge is scoring loads of goals in Liverpool but didn't manage to do that in Chelsea (when playing as a striker, on the flank he was excellent when playing at his best). It isn't a coincidence.

    In real football management you run into these kinds of problems, like Fellaini being too slow playing in two man midfiled and not being good enough to play in attacking midfielder position. In FM you can escape these by being big enough team to "scare" smaller opponents trying to play at their best against you and your players are likely to have high enough CA to perform in most of the games.
    After thinking about it a little more, I see what you're getting at. It still isn't a tactic/role issue really. It goes a little deeper. Chelsea have changed managers quite a bit. Some would have asked him, in FM terms, to play as a CF/A... others AF/A or CF/S or whatever. He hasn't always had a good run of games and the 3 players behind him change constantly. This can't be easy, getting to know exactly how to perform according to the instructions he receives and to get to know how the 3 behind him think and how to be in the best positions. He's missing open goals, so confidence is an issue, too.

    In FM, only the formation, philosophy (Rigid/Fluid etc) and style (Defensive/Counter/Attacking etc) matter. Swapping players in and out of the first team, doesn't matter (I don't think so anyway). You can change roles all you want and the tactical familiarity won't drop. This is the problem. There needs to be a familiarity bar for roles too in the tactical familiarity section. There needs to be a familiarity bar of some kind for players too. You shouldn't be able to switch Torres from DLF/S to AF/A from one match to the next, without any penalties. They are very different roles.

    Are we thinking along the same path now?

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    Didn't Rafa also rotate the team quite a lot in Liverpool and it didn't matter that much? ;)

    If I remember right Mourinho also said that the reason why Juan Mata is behind Oscar in the team sheet because he isn't doing the things that he wants him to do on the pitch? Oscar is helping the Chelsea defence more from attacking midfielder's position. So you could think that José has different kind of vision for his "advanced playmaker" than some pther managers. You can't set the advanced playmaker help the defence with this new tactical system, can you? This is once again one of the bad things with the new system and I still also think that it's quite stupid to think that every manager in the world has the same opinions about different roles...
    Last edited by El Payaso; 01-10-2013 at 13:20.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Payaso View Post
    Didn't Rafa also rotate the team quite a lot in Liverpool and it didn't matter that much? ;)

    If I remember right Mourinho also said that the reason why Juan Mata is behind Oscar in the team sheet because he isn't doing the things that he wants him to do on the pitch? Oscar is helping the Chelsea defence more from attacking midfielder's position. So you could think that José has different kind of vision for his "advanced playmaker" than some pther managers. You can't set the advanced playmaker help the defence with this new tactical system, can you? This is once again one of the bad things with the new system and I still also think that it's quite stupid to think that every manager in the world has the same opinions about different roles...
    He didn't drop Torres much. The odd game here and there, but not anywhere as badly as at Chelsea right now.

    I'll be guessing if I were to think about what Mourinho wants him to do on the pitch. To try and put it in FM terms, maybe the PPMs of Oscar and Mata cause the differences in how they play? If he is talking defensively, it could be the atrributes Work Rate, Aggression etc?

    It could also tie into my idea of a role familiarity being introduced for players. Oscar might have been used to playing as an AM/s or AP/s or whatever Mourinho gives him, but Mata isn't? Mata is now good enough for the first team after the weekend's game, so maybe his familiarity is now at a level where he adheres to the instructions better? I can see attributes like Off The Ball and Positioning taking a heavy hit if a player isn't tactically familiar with the role he is supposed to play.

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    I think the changes are good. Turning the "shouts" into instructions that you can give before as well as during the match makes it a lot easier to costumize the tactic, especially because there's now individual shouts too. There used to be the problem that you could tell your team to drop deeper in the TC, but then because you changed it, it wasn't possible to tell them to push up with a shout anymore. And being able to give different players different instructions for the same position before the match is very very welcome.

    It's also probably going to be easier for more people to get into the whole tactics stuff. Using the sliders is pretty abstract for people who aren't really into it.

    I'm still wondering what the difference is between a trequartista, an advanced playmaker and an enganche is but I'm happy we now have the halfback role in the game. Especially because you couldn't create that role with sliders. Now we can finally properly recreate barcelona. I also hope that wide frontmen in a 4-3-3 become a bit smarter. That's understandable though, as most wide forwards aren't entirely sure of what to do themselves (Theo walcott?).

    Somebody in this thread said that this would make the game more player centric and less tactics centric, and maybe that's good too. Because that's how it works in real football. In older FM's players were too much like robots that you could tinker to the minute detail. There has yet to be a goal scored with a piece of chalk.

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    I can't bring myself to read these incredibly long pages, but tactics for different phases of play is vital. The transition play would be half instructional and the rest done as a training option by the coaches.

    So, basically: we need off the ball setup and on the ball setup, and specifics for inbetweens.

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