The Project 2012 Discussion Thread

This thread is for the discussion of http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/238682-The-Project-(Updated-for-FM12)

I didn't want the thread to die so I decided to rename it and incorporate it into the Sheffield United Project thread I do. So I'll be adding all the relevant FM 12 stuff in the linked thread. I believe the thread to be vital to understand how I achieve great succcess and achieve the goals I set myself. I'll be happy to answer any questions relating to the thread.

Remember that this is time consuming and the thread will be very detailed, so it takes a while to play the game then write it all up. I hope you all enjoy the thread

The thread won't stop moving for some reason, is it me?

Give it time to load all the images in, its a very detailed thread with lots of images. So it might take a while the first time you look at it.

Cheers.

xxx

Cheers.

xxx

Np

I just wanted to give you all a little idea of what to expect and let you all know that I was doing something for FM 12. My training schedules, tactics and lots of other things will all be added to the thread on day of the game release

Amazing thread!!!

i haven't got the the time to read it all, but i i'll sure find the time to read everything. i've learnt a thing or two {probably more }

Yes, a good read Cleon, I've done a couple of threads analysing how the tactical instructions and attributes work together (analysing the goal threads) but I hadn't read your thread in depth so it was good that much of my own analysis matched your earlier observations.

I have to say, the last example, where Defoe crosses for VDV to score, whilst Ferdinand tracked Defoe whoever was the other deep Man Utd defender must have had Tottenham as a favoured club as he did you a massive favour by rigidly standing on the half-way line. Did you manage to find a 'throw a bung' button? Great analysis though.

I won't be getting FM12 for a while as I'm still properly enthused by my FM11 save it'll be good to read some more of your theory - both of your training theory and your analysis of whats happening.

Yes, a good read Cleon, I've done a couple of threads analysing how the tactical instructions and attributes work together (analysing the goal threads) but I hadn't read your thread in depth so it was good that much of my own analysis matched your earlier observations.

I have to say, the last example, where Defoe crosses for VDV to score, whilst Ferdinand tracked Defoe whoever was the other deep Man Utd defender must have had Tottenham as a favoured club as he did you a massive favour by rigidly standing on the half-way line. Did you manage to find a 'throw a bung' button? Great analysis though.

I won't be getting FM12 for a while as I'm still properly enthused by my FM11 save it'll be good to read some more of your theory - both of your training theory and your analysis of whats happening.

I'll put a lot more newer examples up, because it's really interesting to see the jump from League One to Championship

I've just added the schedules I'm currently using. I know I said I'd add them day of game release but it saves me quite a bit of time adding them now rather than next week

I'm not been funny or anything but people are PM'ing me asking questions about the thread. That's what this thread is for, answering questions and such. I get far too many PM's to be able to reply to them all, plus most of you are asking the same things. So please use this thread for all questions regarding the main thread

I'm glad that you've set up high creative freedom and roaming and I totally agree with your reasoning - I have no idea why people still say that this can not work at a lower league as it most certainly can and does not require 15s for decisions, creativity and technique in order to work. As you say, it just requires that your players are, on average, better than your opponents which means that, on average, you'll make less mistakes than they will.

My lower league setup was almost identical to yours, except that I had an Adv.For instead of Targetman. I'd have thought Adv.For would suit young Chedwyn, in my current save I acquired Ched after a few years of game time when I took Southampton into the Championship and he was top scorer and led my way to the Premiership as Adv.For. He never quite made it in the Prem (although my move to a solo striker formation didn't help him) but it took me another 5 years to get rid of him as he was such a useful squad player.

Anyway, I went a little off kilter. As it's a setup I'm very used to it'll be interesting to see what decisions you make as you face different challenges during the season and see if my interpretation of the way to go matches with yours. I feel that the processes that base our decisions are often more important than the actual specifics as they can be generalised to anyone's situation which is absolutely crucial. After all, our philosophies and setups might be incredibly similar but your Blades side will undoubtedly be different to either my Crawley side (before Soton) or my Southampton side so I expect your experience will be fairly different.

I'm glad that you've set up high creative freedom and roaming and I totally agree with your reasoning - I have no idea why people still say that this can not work at a lower league as it most certainly can and does not require 15s for decisions, creativity and technique in order to work. As you say, it just requires that your players are, on average, better than your opponents which means that, on average, you'll make less mistakes than they will.

It will be interesting to see season 2 if I get promoted and go from favourites to underdogs. I think we'll learn a lot more than in the first season in terms of tinkering. I have a 2nd tactic prepared to change to for the games that I might struggle, it's a 4-3-3/4-5-1 variant.

My lower league setup was almost identical to yours, except that I had an Adv.For instead of Targetman. I'd have thought Adv.For would suit young Chedwyn, in my current save I acquired Ched after a few years of game time when I took Southampton into the Championship and he was top scorer and led my way to the Premiership as Adv.For. He never quite made it in the Prem (although my move to a solo striker formation didn't help him) but it took me another 5 years to get rid of him as he was such a useful squad player.

He's actually playing as a Trequartista because he's perfect for it at the level I'm playing currently. But yeah advance forward is what he is most comfy playing and what his stats are most suited to do.

Anyway, I went a little off kilter. As it's a setup I'm very used to it'll be interesting to see what decisions you make as you face different challenges during the season and see if my interpretation of the way to go matches with yours.

I use the stats page all the time to see how I do against other formations, as it's the easiest way to determine which formations you struggle against. Especially as it tells you the minutes you've played against which formation.

I feel that the processes that base our decisions are often more important than the actual specifics as they can be generalised to anyone's situation which is absolutely crucial. After all, our philosophies and setups might be incredibly similar but your Blades side will undoubtedly be different to either my Crawley side (before Soton) or my Southampton side so I expect your experience will be fairly different.

Aye will be interesting to see how you would have approached something that I've done and see if you'd have done it a different way

In effect you have the very same set up (formation, team instructions) that I ended FM11 with.

I found the 4-4-2 was the most consistent formation I could deploy following the last pitch on FM11 (having previously had success with 4-2-3-1 deep.

A few gems in their about level of opposition versus players ability e.g. I was always of the view that the level of opposition determined how aggressive I could be e.g. attacking instead of standard/counter, however I wouldn't previously have contemplated fluid/more roaming until I put together a world class team.

As ever engaging and thought provoking, thank you for taking the time to put this together.

In effect you have the very same set up (formation, team instructions) that I ended FM11 with.

I found the 4-4-2 was the most consistent formation I could deploy following the last pitch on FM11 (having previously had success with 4-2-3-1 deep.

A few gems in their about level of opposition versus players ability e.g. I was always of the view that the level of opposition determined how aggressive I could be e.g. attacking instead of standard/counter, however I wouldn't previously have contemplated fluid/more roaming until I put together a world class team.

As ever engaging and thought provoking, thank you for taking the time to put this together.

Player ability is above and beyond everything else. If you have the players with the stats for the level you play at then anything is possible. I always judge my team on player ability rather than level of opposition. If I know I have better players then I don't change how I play against higher league opposition , as whats the point? I believe I have the better squad so I'm going to use that to my advantage.

Interesting that you have a trequartista and a DLF support up front Cleon, this must create a lot of link up play with them both dropping deep like that. Who are your main goalscorers in this tactic? I take it the wingers must get a few chances running from deep wide positions.

Interesting that you have a trequartista and a DLF support up front Cleon, this must create a lot of link up play with them both dropping deep like that. Who are your main goalscorers in this tactic? I take it the wingers must get a few chances running from deep wide positions.

Ched Evans gets roughly a goal a game. The DLF scores like 17 in 23 games. And the wingers are in double figures already, both of them. The link up play is great and something that I like to focus on because I lack pace, I have a really slow team.

Ill keep an eye on this, have pre-oredered FM12 and Ive decided to download the demo and play a few hours before I get the real deal next weekend.

I always play a career game that starts unemployed and face the task of trying to get something workable from lower league players. This thoughtful approach is more my style although I often find it hard to work out whats going wrong so may enlist some help

Hope its still going well for the Blades in your game

D

Ill keep an eye on this, have pre-oredered FM12 and Ive decided to download the demo and play a few hours before I get the real deal next weekend.

I always play a career game that starts unemployed and face the task of trying to get something workable from lower league players. This thoughtful approach is more my style although I often find it hard to work out whats going wrong so may enlist some help

Hope its still going well for the Blades in your game

D

Cheers

You can even get this approach to work with teams who might not be favourites for every game. Hopefully you'll see that in season two

Well because of my approach I would say I spend most of my time playing games where I am not the favoured team.

My real interest therefore is in trying to use the settings to counter my opponants threats and create some of my own, I am rarely in a position to dictate the terms of play (or at leat I feel that way) which is the advantage to what you are doing I think.

I see you play zonal marking for example, do you do anything major to change the initial set-up if you find yourself faced with a 5 man midfield for example?

I often read the Zonal Marking 'Football tactics, formations, diagrams, chalkboards and graphs' site for ideas relating to this

Well because of my approach I would say I spend most of my time playing games where I am not the favoured team.

My real interest therefore is in trying to use the settings to counter my opponants threats and create some of my own, I am rarely in a position to dictate the terms of play (or at leat I feel that way) which is the advantage to what you are doing I think.

I see you play zonal marking for example, do you do anything major to change the initial set-up if you find yourself faced with a 5 man midfield for example?

I often read the Zonal Marking 'Football tactics, formations, diagrams, chalkboards and graphs' site for ideas relating to this

If it's an overpowering 5 man midfield i.e 433/451 hybrid then I might change to the same formation myself as that's my 2nd tactic for when things are going wrong. But so far in my game I've only had to use that once. And that was for a game in the cup against stoke as they played 4231 but with three AMC's. So I had to change as I believed I could win the game. And I did 4-3. But that's the only time. I've just destroyed Newcastle in the cup 4-1 as well using the original set up what I posted. But you'll understand more as to why when I post the things up that I've wrote. But I can't post them until the game is out

Cleon in the 451/433 do you use the same initial roles\team instructions?

Cleon in the 451/433 do you use the same initial roles\team instructions?

Very simliar but not quite the same. I'll be posting about it by the end of the week

I've added the 4-3-3 now

After toying around with the training schedules I've now decided to create individual ones for every single single player for season two. This is so I can concentrate on every single player the way I'd like him to develop.

More "minimicromanagement"

More "minimicromanagement"

What you on about?

I miss the old day where you make a general or positon based schedules, now you have a never ending clicking trough the training.

I miss the old day where you make a general or positon based schedules, now you have a never ending clicking trough the training.

You mean like I've already posted originally? You still can its just I choose not to. That's the good thing, you can play the game how you want. If you don't want to micro manage then don't, simples.

Cleon, with the season one training schedules you have created do you find (either in FM11 or the FM12 demo) that players complain about the training schedules?

I have created my own for the first time and the overall workloads are 4-5 clicks 'lighter' than yours and when testing them out during the demo I average 2 players per fortnightly backroom advice session complaining about them.

If you do get training schedule complainers, do you generally ignore these or keep lowering the overal workload?

Cleon, with the season one training schedules you have created do you find (either in FM11 or the FM12 demo) that players complain about the training schedules?

I have created my own for the first time and the overall workloads are 4-5 clicks 'lighter' than yours and when testing them out during the demo I average 2 players per fortnightly backroom advice session complaining about them.

If you do get training schedule complainers, do you generally ignore these or keep lowering the overal workload?

I get some complain but after ignoring them for a month or so there fine. I tend to find that the players who whinge are the players who don't play each week, i.e fringe players. I just ignore them for now as my squad players don't complain at all.

I get some complain but after ignoring them for a month or so there fine. I tend to find that the players who whinge are the players who don't play each week, i.e fringe players. I just ignore them for now as my squad players don't complain at all.

Mine were fringe players too. Excellent, thank you.

Some questions for you bud:

- Last year you thought (like me) that building customized training schedules was a waste of time, now you built not only custom schedules but you created pre-season training, I'm shocked!!

Did you spot any changes during the beta-testing process to support your choice?

-Last year I had very good success using a 4-3-1-2 that employed almost your same settings, high closing down apart.

Isn't it a bit counterintuitive?

Some questions for you bud:

- Last year you thought (like me) that building customized training schedules was a waste of time, now you built not only custom schedules but you created pre-season training, I'm shocked!!

Did you spot any changes during the beta-testing process to support your choice?

-Last year I had very good success using a 4-3-1-2 that employed almost your same settings, high closing down apart.

Isn't it a bit counterintuitive?

I still think training is a waste of space for the most part however because I'm managing every aspect of Sheffield United as it's my career game I thought why not make custom ones. It's something different

As for the second one how do you mean? Why do you think its counterintuitive?

Mine were fringe players too. Excellent, thank you.

I don't know if it as any long term effects but short term I've not noticed anything to worry about and players seem to be developing still

I still think training is a waste of space for the most part however because I'm managing every aspect of Sheffield United as it's my career game I thought why not make custom ones. It's something different

As for the second one how do you mean? Why do you think its counterintuitive?

For the high closing setting, playing a slow paced game coupled with a counter-attacking style I'd imagine to adopt a more stand-off attitude, or at least that was my own choice.

For the high closing setting, playing a slow paced game coupled with a counter-attacking style I'd imagine to adopt a more stand-off attitude, or at least that was my own choice.

Think Barcelona irl high closing down, slow patient build up from times to time. And I am by far superior to any team in this league, so I can be more expressive and enforce my style on teams. You only have to look through the squad I got on the demo and you'll see. The amount of goals I've scored by closing down high up the pitch is high.

Think Barcelona irl high closing down, slow patient build up from times to time. And I am by far superior to any team in this league, so I can be more expressive and enforce my style on teams. You only have to look through the squad I got on the demo and you'll see. The amount of goals I've scored by closing down high up the pitch is high.

I can understand that, it makes sense, but I'd employ an higher d-line too.

I can understand that, it makes sense, but I'd employ an higher d-line too.

Nah I lack pace at the back, my 2 centrebacks have 8 pace and acceleration. My right back has 15 accelration and 14 pace but my left back has 10 for both. So makes no sense for me to play any higher and risk been caught out at the back . The d-line is perfect for me.

Nah I lack pace at the back, my 2 centrebacks have 8 pace and acceleration. My right back has 15 accelration and 14 pace but my left back has 10 for both. So makes no sense for me to play any higher and risk been caught out at the back . The d-line is perfect for me.

Fair enough then.

Hey Cleon

Great Thread m8 - In the early FM/CM days i got great success on 1 of the versions by using the following attributes per position - GK handling, Reflexes, Agility, Def Position, Tacking, Marking, Midfield Flair, Creativity, Passing and finally Striker Finishing Heading Off the ball.

By using these attributes i got could get any lower league side into the prem and beyond but ive only managed to get this to work once.

I keep trying and keep failing...

i got put onto your 'project thread' from thomas levin at fm pundit...im a poor fm-er if im honest...always failed at making my own tactics, and normally use good ol plug n play.

but i would like to learn the game, hence reading your project...fair play mate, you really know your stuff, and really interesting.

i was about to try putting some of your stuff into practice, and one thing has put me off so far...and its not any of your work, but the game makers...by this i mean, when you take time to set up a players settings, then for example, he gets injured...when you take him out of the team, you then have to fiddle about setting up his replacement?...in-game, with substitutes, injuries etc, this must take an age to play a game, as you cant (as far as i know) save a players settings? how do you get around this, or do you?

will continue to read your threads...keep up the good work

cheers

Cleon please make/Remake the attribute for the positions in the guide.

i got put onto your 'project thread' from thomas levin at fm pundit...im a poor fm-er if im honest...always failed at making my own tactics, and normally use good ol plug n play.

but i would like to learn the game, hence reading your project...fair play mate, you really know your stuff, and really interesting.

i was about to try putting some of your stuff into practice, and one thing has put me off so far...and its not any of your work, but the game makers...by this i mean, when you take time to set up a players settings, then for example, he gets injured...when you take him out of the team, you then have to fiddle about setting up his replacement?...in-game, with substitutes, injuries etc, this must take an age to play a game, as you cant (as far as i know) save a players settings? how do you get around this, or do you?

will continue to read your threads...keep up the good work

cheers

It takes like 30 seconds if using the tactics creator to change someones settings at max. But majority of the time I keep the same settings, it's not really any slower.

Cleon please make/Remake the attribute for the positions in the guide.

Why? it already exists.

I'm in a bit of a dilemma. I've got 2 Sheffield United games on the go (demo) while I'm waiting for the full release of FM. The 4-4-2 is doing great, lots of goals and loads of clean sheets. I'm still unbeaten on it. However in the 2nd game were I'm testing my new training schedules I'm using the 4-4-3/4-5-1 hyrbid I posted. But My MC is getting on average 80+ passes in majority of games. This as got me wanting to explore the 4-3-3 I'm using lot more and tweak it to get even better results. I know a lot of people are aiming to get their playmaker to do 80+ passes a game but are finding it hard to do so. So I might start my game again tonight and use the hybrid formation and go into detail about how and why they get so many passes, what do you all think?

Hi, I have a question regarding your pre-season training schedules. I used schedules which where pretty similiar to yours for pre-season in my last long-term FM11 save.

But over several seasons, with all schedules in which strenghth and/or aerobic where above normal, I had many problems with injuries. At least one key player got injured during pre-season training for lnger periods (mostly 3 weeks to 2 months, with a record of a 6 month injury) and I had several short injuries during the whole pre-season time.

So my question is - are the benefits of a pre-season training whith a high workload in the physical areas really that big, that you should risk injuries? In my save the pre-season was ok, but the last 2 seasons i just kept my normal schedules during the time and didn't have any "bad" results.

On a sidenote - none of the injured player had a very high injury risk due to hidden stats. As FM11 comes to an end now, i checked it with fmrte, just to be sure..

Hi, I have a question regarding your pre-season training schedules. I used schedules which where pretty similiar to yours for pre-season in my last long-term FM11 save.

But over several seasons, with all schedules in which strenghth and/or aerobic where above normal, I had many problems with injuries. At least one key player got injured during pre-season training for lnger periods (mostly 3 weeks to 2 months, with a record of a 6 month injury) and I had several short injuries during the whole pre-season time.

So my question is - are the benefits of a pre-season training whith a high workload in the physical areas really that big, that you should risk injuries? In my save the pre-season was ok, but the last 2 seasons i just kept my normal schedules during the time and didn't have any "bad" results.

On a sidenote - none of the injured player had a very high injury risk due to hidden stats. As FM11 comes to an end now, i checked it with fmrte, just to be sure..

I find players condition is a lot better during the season and by using them I tend to get less injuries during a season.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/279009-FM2012-Training-And-Match-Prep-Masterclass You should give that a read if you haven't already

I find it curious that despite having that many passes and competing most of them, and also running the most or near the most metres on the pitch that their ratings are one of the lowest. Seems like they are sort of dictators of where the play goes rather than putting in the killer ball, especially with their lack of shots as well seems more like the stats I would expect a DLP to have rather than an AP.

Interesting stats none the less though, waiting on Steam to fire this baby up

I find it curious that despite having that many passes and competing most of them, and also running the most or near the most metres on the pitch that their ratings are one of the lowest. Seems like they are sort of dictators of where the play goes rather than putting in the killer ball, especially with their lack of shots as well seems more like the stats I would expect a DLP to have rather than an AP.

Interesting stats none the less though, waiting on Steam to fire this baby up

They are the DLP, they are from the 433/451 hybrid I posted in the thread. There the engine room of the tactic, everything goes thru them. It's a shame that the rating system doesn't allow for this kind of play though, as they should have a lot higher ratings. But instead the rating system rewards attacking play such as goals, assist way higher

Arr I see sorry as you didnt specify I assumed AP for some reason haha,

Seems a good role then, but yes a higher rating would be fairer for such an integral player!

Cleon, in answer to your question I would personally be interested in seeing more detail/discussion on the 451/433 hybrid. I didn’t play fm 11 much but one thing i did note was the difficulty in getting high pass rates from MC’s compared to fm10. So yeah, i’d be very interested in seeing how you set them up to get those numbers and more importantly, to have that level of influence on the game. Might even influence me to buy the latest version as I’ve tended to stick to fm10 because i personally prefer the ME on that version.