Defending in the match engine

Without a shadow of a doubt the biggest flaw in this year's game (and perhaps previous years).

Take a team and try and make them grind out 1-0 wins.... it doesn't happen.

Take a very good prem side, play terrible opposition and you more often than not conceed a goal.

The ability to defend is paramount in modern football - Rangers making the UEFA final anyone? yet in FM you need to attack teams to stop them from scoring at you. You can't play a defensive formation and try and steal a goalless draw in Europe your defence always leaks at least one goal.

Some aspects of this are well publicised - for instance a big punt from the keeper going straight over the center backs heads being one, but the sheer ineptitude of overall defending in the game is the thing that needs to be sorted out.

Now I am not sure if this is just due to a lack of tactical options when defending, man marking system being flawed or some other factor, but I do know that any team struggles to keep a clean sheet unless they are all out attack - something which is fine against lesser opposition, but in europe you can't do.

For all the doubters out there (and there will be a few) try and take a side into big games (european, top of league clash etc) and try to play a defensive game with a view to not conceeding - it's very, very rare that you do keep a clean sheet.

It's not certain players either - I have seen the same thing happen when taking over the youth team as I have when playing with the first team.

This is something that is slowly becoming noticeable and has the cumulative effect on the match engine critics that it just is not up to scratch.

While this is not the straw that broke the camel's back, it's legs are starting to tremble....

The problem is that a good defending AI seems to be much harder or less wanted by the majority.

Just look at all the other football games.

The offense isn't good, but the defense is horrible in every game I know.

Yes it's pretty cool to see your winger getting past the opposing full back and crossing the ball just perfectly, but it sucks to see your own defender just not tackling this stupid winger running down the line.

Or your central defenders closing down the playmaker of the other team.

So, yes I agree with you and I want to see changes too, but it doubt it will happen anytime soon.

Defenders have been ******** for a number of versions now and it's come to a head now that we can see it in 3D. They stand still, they run the wrong way, they close down the wrong people and just in general make you shake your head. The 'keeper assist' bug is only in existence because the defenders actually run under the ball before turning around and chasing. How does this sort of stuff not get detected in testing?

I'd love to see SI just concentrate on getting the mechanics right for defenders in FM10 but I very much doubt it will happen.

Defending is pointless presently. Even if you manage to put together a solid defensive tactic, the AI will still have players with long shots 8 scoring 40 yard screamers every game.

If you go the opposite route and push up the AI will just destroy you on the counter.

If the patch doesnt completely revamp the ME I'll be amazed.

I commented on this a while back. Most sports games for the most part ignore defense. I think SI may bi in a bit of a tight spot at the moment. They have developed and worked a long time on the ME, and it still is not great. Add in the real lack of good tactical options, and there may actually be some competition soon. I personally hope a few other management games do really get good over the next year or two and put some pressure on SI.

Utterly, utterly disagree...

Currently playing with Bordeaux and my defense and the ability to shut teams down is one of the strongest parts of my team's game.

If you are taking the time to evaluate other teams' attacking strengths and respond with suitable instructions and selection then you should soon see your defense cutting certain players out of the game, making intelligent interceptions and breaking opposition moves down more often than not.

Also don't forget that you won't get to see your defense trying to earn their money until things go wrong and either they make a mistake or the opposition produce a flash of inspiration. If you are only watching key highlights then 50-70% of a good defensive performance is in you NOT seeing the opposition attacking, not in how your defenders respond when they do get through.

Yes, I agree as well. I've finally sorted my defense (and brought in a couple of upgrade players) and my team has posted a bunch of consecutive clean sheets.

********!!!

Here's some evidence against this rediculous claim!

Teams will concede goals, because you can't always prevent it, but I've had more than my share of clean sheets this season and last season. In fact, season stats (OVERALL): 56 played and 28 conceded! Akinfeev has had 36 clean sheets!!! They made 7 in a row without conceding this season!

Then there's my reserves if that makes you feel better: Played 15 and conceded 9.

Or maybe my U18s would make you feel better: Played 20 and conceded 10.

I think my camel is doing fine mate!

I might add that my teams ability to defend has been it's strong suit over the last 2 seasons since it's overhaul. My strikers have failed to score for 5-6 games at a time, but a strong backline and amazing wingers kept my team in the chase.

Geez you lot - ever heard the phrase, "It's your tactics"?! 'Cos it IS. I have a rock-tight defence and grind out plenty 1-0 victories. Go to the tactics forum and get yourself educated.

I have a very tight defence too and am always in the top two or three teams for goals conceded. However I'm not blind either, and can see A LOT wrong with how defenders defend.

Woeful finishing contributes to low goals conceded numbers as much as anything.

11 games into the season and I've only conceeded 4 goals, 3 of which from one game where due to fitness I had to play some kids in defence.

Hypothetically, if a defender starts to chase a ball and then stops on the spot, the striker nips in but blazes over, is it suddenly not poor defending because a goal didn't come from it?

Currently playing a lower league team in the Dutch Second League (Go Ahead Eagles) and currently I have a very solid 4-3-3 tactic in which my defense is very solid and very often I grind out 1-0, 2-1 wins.

Right guys. My response will be in 3 parts.

Part 1 will be telling you how the game feels to me.

Part 2 will bve based on my defensive stats.

Part 3 will be drawing conclusions from parts 1 & 2.

Part 1.

Well I think I sympathise and agree with the original poster. I seem to have largely resolbved the issued which led to us conceding goals from long punts. but I know seem to be having issues with conceding own goals and penalties. If I didn't know better I would swear that the AI was cheating me.

Part 2.

Season 1. GK1 26(1) games 7 clean sheets. Not too shabby when you consider that we were pish adn were relegated.

Season 1. GK2 retired, info unavailable.

Season 2. GK1 46 games 20 clean sheets. We lost in the playoffs but were always hanging in there rather than comfortable.

Season 3. GK1 19 games 5 clean sheets. Mid table obscurity currently.

Season 1. Relegated with clean sheet % of roughly 20% from available stats.

Season 2. Achieved playoffs with clan sheet % of roughly 42%

Season 3. Underachieving with clean sheet % of roughly 26%

* The clean sheet % were worked out in my head so may not be accurate.

Part 3. Summary.

So although the feel I had made me agree with the original poster, the stats to not back that up. When you also consider that I have been managing teams promoted into the Conference North/South, then it also probably skews the further in favour of the original poster.

So I suppose I would have to assume that there is in fact no flaw within the gaqme which makes regular narrow wins while keeping a clean sheet apossibility.

Cetainly the game is hard, (harder than previous issues), but just because you, (or me), are unable to find a tactical solution to a particular issue, doesn't means that others can't or haven't.

i'm doing fine in terms of 'not conceding', however i am skeptical to the amount of goals scored due to defender MISTAKES (eg match engine bugs or player idiocy) comparing similarly to such stats that could be found irl.

Utterly, utterly disagree...

Currently playing with Bordeaux and my defense and the ability to shut teams down is one of the strongest parts of my team's game.

If you are taking the time to evaluate other teams' attacking strengths and respond with suitable instructions and selection then you should soon see your defense cutting certain players out of the game, making intelligent interceptions and breaking opposition moves down more often than not.

Also don't forget that you won't get to see your defense trying to earn their money until things go wrong and either they make a mistake or the opposition produce a flash of inspiration. If you are only watching key highlights then 50-70% of a good defensive performance is in you NOT seeing the opposition attacking, not in how your defenders respond when they do get through.

agreed, i also keep qiute some clean sheets. but i almost never use too defensive tactics, tight, yes but not defensive by mentality.

but i also agree with OP, it should be MUCH easier to play defensive than attacking style, at least that's how it works IRL.

from my ME observations i think especially fullbacks' marking and positioning really needs some fixing, quality players make too many 'conference level mistakes', than there are famous long shots and while i don't mind them going in, i think any player seems just as capable of pulling them, controling the ball to shoot like he's better than juninho - stats like composure, concentration, technique, first touch should play much more important role here.

I've always been a fan of grinding out 1-0 wins, something which is not easy but I always try it anyway

In my current Atalanta save I finished 14th, 12th and 11th in my first three seasons. Trying, but failing, to keep scores down. I conceded around 50 goals each in those seasons. Then finally things just click... I currently lead the league on head-to-head with Juventus with 3 games left, having conceded 26 goals in 35 games, with 17 clean sheets (Almost 50%!) including five in a row at one stage. And I don't have an exceptional squad. It's good, but not better than the other top 4-5 teams.

However the key to it is that unless you have an exceptional squad, you have to give up a lot of your attacking ability to gain that extra defensive stability. The difficult part isn't necessarily keeping the clean sheet; it's to be able to consistently score while doing so.

I currently play a 4-1-2-1-2 (Narrow diamond), narrow width, and I have my DCs on one mentality (Usually 7), and the rest of the team minus one striker 2 notches above that, i.e usually at 9. DCs and DMCs have no fwd runs, and the only players with fwd runs set to often are 1 striker and my AMC. My FBs are selected based on their defensive attributes, and the two link MCs are strong allround players; high on strength, work rate, tactical attributes (positioning, anticipation etc) decent tackling/marking but possessing not much in the way of attacking flair other than both being very good passers. It's tempting to have creative fullbacks bombing forward, or having two Riquelmes in midfield, but you can't afford to most of the time.

The reason for mentioning all that is just to show that you need to commit to the defense. I struggle to break down teams on occasion, and I can't just turn loose my offense at will. But thats the price you have to pay. The same is true in real life as well; an exceptional team can be great in both offense and defense, but usually you have to sacrifice one to be great at the other.

Finally I'd just like to offer one very counter-intuitive tip; If you want to be solid defensively, don't play 4-5-1. Of course you can be still, but I found it a lot harder. I've been a staunch 4-5-1 (Including all versions like 4-2-3-1, 4-3-2-1, 4-1-3-1-1 etc) fanatic for many versions now, but I find that the 4-4-2 diamond offers a better defensive framework. I belive that is because even if your two strikers are the only offensive-minded players on the team, they together can create a lot more than one lone striker could, helping you out in those games where you need to score more than one. But the major impact on defense I think is that there's a bigger chance of you gaining possession when clearing the ball away. And that seems to play a major role.