Ok you win,I give up.

I have followed the FM series since 97/98 and for the most part always had fun(alot of fun at that),since maybe 06 I have lost that and last edtion is driving me up the wall.

I know some players will say "its yout tactics"ok fair enough you win,you know more about the game than I do,what I do know is this...

I had this week free so decided i would get into this game,after so many re-starts and so many tactics tried I am ready to throw this out the window...

This edtion has totally forgotten it is suppossed to be fun,instead players have to change there tactics(not just team but also player)every game and taken into account the injuries that happen way to often I have seen myself play mid season for around 45 mins and not play a game.

I know maybe some die hard fans may love this but I for 1 dont.

It is nice to move on but dont forget some of us player's that have supported you through the years did so for a reason...your game was fun!

totally agree dont understand what was wrong with the 05 & 06 versions, they just needed update personell.

totally funless game now imho.

Hmm... Fair enough. Those are your opinions.

For me, there's a few imperfections in the match engine and, well, tactics are something of a minefield, but I've been playing since I got home from work five and a half hours ago and I love it! Should have seen me celebrate when I won a penalty shootout to get into the Coppa Italia final.

Well why don't you keep on going? You'll eventually find the right tactic that gets results.

I agree to a certian extent. The game has definatly moved away from being as fun.

Who said Management was fun??

Its a game, agreed. We all want to win something, agreed but you have to have some talent to have success.

There needs to be a balance between simulation and fun though. I don't play FM to actually be a football manager; if I wanted to do that I'd go down my local club and offer my services.

There needs to be a balance between simulation and fun though. I don't play FM to actually be a football manager; if I wanted to do that I'd go down my local club and offer my services.

That's your opinion though. Plenty more will disagree with you and say the fun comes from it being realistic and challenging giving you the closest experience you will find to being an actual manager without leaving your home

The more realistic it is the better as far as I'm concerned. If you don't like it, look elsewhere, FIFA for example, but don't come here trying to change FM in to a casual football manager game. It's always been SI's intentions from the start to make it as close to real life as possible

That's your opinion though. Plenty more will disagree with you and say the fun comes from it being realistic and challenging giving you the closest experience you will find to being an actual manager without leaving your home

The more realistic it is the better as far as I'm concerned. If you don't like it, look elsewhere, FIFA for example, but don't come here trying to change FM in to a casual football manager game. It's always been SI's intentions from the start to make it as close to real life as possible

Agreed. And as for offering services down the local club, I think they're after a tea lady!

That's your opinion though. Plenty more will disagree with you and say the fun comes from it being realistic and challenging giving you the closest experience you will find to being an actual manager without leaving your home

The more realistic it is the better as far as I'm concerned. If you don't like it, look elsewhere, FIFA for example, but don't come here trying to change FM in to a casual football manager game. It's always been SI's intentions from the start to make it as close to real life as possible

I know this, apart from some illogical sense of loyalty, the realism is what makes me pick this game. However, to be honest I don't even think FM is a good simulation of match day tactics. It is in fact -more- complex; "here, Michael you have a mentality of 15, John will sit back around 13. Can one of ye be about 17 creative too? Cheers." The game seems to be going in a direction where the tactics are set up so that they allow you to control the match engine, however abstract the match engine is from reality.

Personally I play the game almost the same way I did a decade ago with CM9798 or even back further to the original Football Manager for the Amstrad. I sign players, I manage the players wants and needs, I send them out on the pitch with a general sense of what they need to do. It's not as if I haven't kept up, I do tell the players to go on forward runs, man mark their oppositon and such, but I honestly don't see the fun in having to read the 60 page Tactics Theorums in order to grind out a result by having the sliders in a certain position.

The game either needs to radically change its tactical system, or reduce its impact; that is, spending hours playing with sliders should results in a fantastic tactic, but shouldn't be neccessary just to win a game. Yes, this is my opinion, but it seems to be a common one. FM's user base is incredibly loyal, but as we grow older lots of people drift away from the games for whatever reason, and newer players are presented with a game which will see them relegating their favourite clubs.

As an aside, what I do these days is invest in a world class assistant manager and use his advice a starting position. Like Alex Ferguson and his high profile assistants, I guess.

Agreed. And as for offering services down the local club, I think they're after a tea lady!

I would love that job! Sadly, I don't think my technique stat is high enough. That, and I crack under pressure.

Agreed. And as for offering services down the local club, I think they're after a tea lady!

Shouldn't you be elsewhere, banging on about a patch?

this game is no fun at all. ive started a game as birmingham. ive signed a couple of decent players and played what i thought was a bog standard 4-4-2. im 5 games into the season and dont even look like scoring or winning!

1. yes ive stuck to the same tactics

2. no i havent got too many new players gelling

3. yes ive got an excellent knowledge of football

4. and no im not having fun!

this game is no fun at all. ive started a game as birmingham. ive signed a couple of decent players and played what i thought was a bog standard 4-4-2. im 5 games into the season and dont even look like scoring or winning!

1. yes ive stuck to the same tactics

2. no i havent got too many new players gelling

3. yes ive got an excellent knowledge of football

4. and no im not having fun!

1. Are you sure, that teams are still playing the same tactics every match irl? I am not. Every opponent is different, every match is different and if you are not looking to reveal the weaknesses of your opponent, you can not win so simply...

2. No? You have mentioned, that you signed couple of decent players...ehm.

3. But not a managerial knowledge...

4. Is it fun to select your best 11 players to one standard tactics and expect to win automatically? omg.

I am sorry but IMHO there are valid reasons on your side that you are not enjoying it. Not FM.

There needs to be a balance between simulation and fun though. I don't play FM to actually be a football manager; if I wanted to do that I'd go down my local club and offer my services.

If the game is all about sitting your lazy ass on the computer chair and watch butons floating around the screen without actually doing anything, i'd rather do something better and more productive to have some fun, like play football for example.

Screw all those people who come here saying they played CM/FM since the middle age and that now they're not having more fun because they're losing. When i started playing FM05, i struggled too, but i always blamed myself or the buttons because of that, and i wouldn't come here to cry and let everyone know i'm depressed because i can't win in a game (yes it's just a game), and it was the same in FM08.

If these people say they love the game so much, why do they start hating it when they're losing? I know the ME has flaws, but it shouldn't be made for you to win every time.

People who complain it's too much for them to deal with are missing the point. Being a football manager is not just sitting on your ass and sliding arrows up and down its changing tactics to beat the opposition and your find in real life this happens. People asked for a far superior realistic game and now they have got it they complain it's too hard or there's to much to do.

If the game is all about sitting your lazy ass on the computer chair and watch butons floating around the screen without actually doing anything, i'd rather do something better and more productive to have some fun, like play football for example.

Screw all those people who come here saying they played CM/FM since the middle age and that now they're not having more fun because they're losing. When i started playing FM05, i struggled too, but i always blamed myself or the buttons because of that, and i wouldn't come here to cry and let everyone know i'm depressed because i can't win in a game (yes it's just a game), and it was the same in FM08.

If these people say they love the game so much, why do they start hating it when they're losing? I know the ME has flaws, but it shouldn't be made for you to win every time.

Tone down the insults, lad.

People can be frustrated that a game they're putting a lot of effort into is punishing them for not fiddling with all the sliders. It's not the case that I just want to send 11 men out and win every time, rather that the match engine and our current method of controlling it, have lost a sense of connection to reality and are now an abstract maths game rather than a sports simulation.

You might not care that people have played the game for a long time, but one thing you can't deny is that people like that have seen a -lot- of match engines. I've seen 2 per year for a decade, plus one-per week when beta-testing FM Live. The current one is the second worst, the worst being the one that let you win every game by scoring corners. The ME is the only weak point of the game at the moment, I'm still really enjoying it, but the matches let all the other effort down because they've picked an arbitrary build of the FM Live ME and stuck it in a single player game.

If the game is all about sitting your lazy ass on the computer chair and watch butons floating around the screen without actually doing anything, i'd rather do something better and more productive to have some fun, like play football for example.

Screw all those people who come here saying they played CM/FM since the middle age and that now they're not having more fun because they're losing. When i started playing FM05, i struggled too, but i always blamed myself or the buttons because of that, and i wouldn't come here to cry and let everyone know i'm depressed because i can't win in a game (yes it's just a game), and it was the same in FM08.

If these people say they love the game so much, why do they start hating it when they're losing? I know the ME has flaws, but it shouldn't be made for you to win every time.

Were did I say I was losing?

My OP had nothing to do with winning and losing but everything to do with the managment system,I want my game to be fun,hell I remember in 00/01 being in a relegation battle all season and I lost that battle but had great fun.

I just dont want all the sliders to be really what this game is all about now.

I also dont want to load up the game knowing I wont be playing a match for around 30 mins because I have to change all my tactics as 2 players got injured,my point is there is just to much micro management in the game now.

I agree with the OP's comments and I'm currently in the same situation. The game is no longer fun for me.

This sort of quote worries me:

Who said Management was fun??

Erm, nobody, but this is a game and they are supposed to be fun. A good analogy is a racing game. Driving a Formula 1 car, for example, is extremely difficult and most people would fail to even drive one out of the pits, which is why even the most realistic racing simulators aren't 100% true to real life. There has to be some level of disconnect from reality to create the game part of the experience.

Also, people claiming it's the realism that makes the game difficult are wrong, IMO. However realistic the ME or transfer or financial elements of the game are, the interaction between the player and the ME is so far removed from realism any advances in the other areas are pretty much pointless. Bottom line: this game is not realistic, and it's almost entirely due to the way tactics have been implemented.

The very fact the TT&F documents not only exists but is pretty much required reading to begin to grasp the tactics in the game should highlight the fact there is a problem. This version of FM is probably the least accessable ever created because there's a terminal lack of feedback provided to players about where they're tactics are going wrong and the amount of tinkering and adjustment required is extreme.

Why do those who disagree with the OP also automatically assume he wants some sort of "auto-win" button? Any game will require a certain level of difficulty, or it ceases to be a challenge, but that doesn't mean there are only two ways to design FM: either very difficult yet "realistic" or really easy and "unrealistic". What I and, I believe, many others are saying is there is a happy medium of the two and at the moment FM09 is a very long way from that.

Screw all those people who come here saying they played CM/FM since the middle age and that now they're not having more fun because they're losing. When i started playing FM05, i struggled too, but i always blamed myself or the buttons because of that, and i wouldn't come here to cry and let everyone know i'm depressed because i can't win in a game (yes it's just a game), and it was the same in FM08.

If these people say they love the game so much, why do they start hating it when they're losing? I know the ME has flaws, but it shouldn't be made for you to win every time.

No I don't think it's the losing that makes people not have fun. I have recently started a game and it is really going well for me, but I think it's only because I am sticking to the guidelines from tactical forum. I have read and tried to learn the theorems, and in any game I am tweaking those notches, setting opponent instructions and so on... And yes, thanks to all this, I am succesful, yet it comes at a price.

The tempo of the game fell for me drastically. Until FM 08 I spent most of the time at transfers, relations and all other things that made me sink into this micro universum of my savegame. Now it's the damn sliders all the time. You don't adjust the depth of the defence line - you will lose. You don't order to show opponents to weaker foot - you will lose. And that is just two of tens of factors you have to micromanage.

If it was only once before each game it wouldn't probably be THAT bad. But in order to be at least fairly succesfull you need to be constantly glued to the screen (even playing against teams much weaker than you) and monitor during each game little things that you have to counter (i.e. see when you have to make that +5 notches adjustment).

I don't like that and I think that most other people feel the same. I guess I am not the perfect target for this edition of game. Let me say that once again - it's not lack of success that get's people frustrated. It is the lack of free-flowingness that all the CMs/FMs had prior to '08 version. Some might like it, there is no doubt about that. But I get a feeling that the majority people don't.

07 was always my favourite and it had that factor of not winning every game but still not needing to adjust everything for very little return.

those who say that adjusting these sliders every single game is like real management are wrong. the common theory for Barcelona's recent demise is that Rikjard just sent them out to play without too many specific instructions and without great tactics. But the problem with this wasnt that they couldnt win with these instructions it was they had already won EVERYTHING with these instructions and lost the motivation and had no leadership to maintain their domination.

The very fact the TT&F documents not only exists but is pretty much required reading to begin to grasp the tactics in the game should highlight the fact there is a problem. This version of FM is probably the least accessable ever created because there's a terminal lack of feedback provided to players about where they're tactics are going wrong and the amount of tinkering and adjustment required is extreme.

I think this is the issue, sure the ME is kinda abstract and has its quirks but dont all football games/sims, to expect 100% realism is to much.

Its the fact that when i change a players mentality from say 8 to 13 i have no clue how that actually translates on the pitch in terms of positioning, which is UNREALISTIC. If you assume its a real life game and Fergie tells Carrick "right dont go beyond the hlaf way line when we have possession of the ball i want you to hold back" he can tell him exactly where he wants him.

We have to rely on an obscure set of sliders which have no on pitch representation to display what they do, its like educated guess work, its like Fergie saying "right Carrick i want to be more defensive when we have the ball, hang back more but dont ask me where cause i have no clue"

It would be really easy to solve as well, when you altered their mentality for instance it should show a ghost marker for each player as to how much further forward they will get from the standard position, same with passing it should show a superimposed circle around the player to display the range of his passing setting and so on for each slider.

With more feedback people wouldnt feel like they were guessing what things did, they would know that if the tweaks sliders x y and z that certain and specific things would occure.

We have to rely on an obscure set of sliders which have no on pitch representation to display what they do, its like educated guess work, its like Fergie saying "right Carrick i want to be more defensive when we have the ball, hang back more but dont ask me where cause i have no clue"

A set of drop down options which actually told you what they did would be do much better.

You could then have options for Do not cross the half way line, Try and get into the box when the wingers have the ball, and things like that. It would make so much more sense and would help people set up tactics easier.

Neil

Its not realistic anyway, the match engine has too many flaws in it to make it realistic, you have to do unrealistic things to counter simple long balls, and some teams do change their tactics every game, most lower teams would, Arsenal dont change their tactics in real life, Man utd make minor changes but stick to the same basic 442 or 451. The actal changing of tactics here and there to counter certain teams is fine, but having to tweak tactics to counter match engine flaws is crap imo

Re: How ‘realistic’ FM2009 is.

If you chose, as someone new to the FM series, to manage for example one of the ‘big 4’ in England or either half of the Old Firm in Scotland you should with minimal effort, thought and tweaking of tactics & sliders be able to pick a bog-standard 4-4-2 formation and your best 11 players for those positions and win most weeks, you should certainly be able to finish top 4 England/ top 2 Scotland.

IRL the proof was Avram Grant at Chelsea last season, who had never really managed at a big club before and probably never will again so he IMO is a good benchmark to how any of us should do in FM2009. I live in Scotland and play most seasons in FM2009 as Rangers in the SPL, if by some miracle I was offered the Rangers job in real-life I would need to make a right mess of it to finish outside the top two, before anyone brings up PLG I still think he would have finished top two. Better examples are Strachan and Smith who were not overly successful in England yet dominate the game here in Scotland. I believe if you took any manager from any other SPL club and put them in charge at either half of the Old Firm they would finish top two.

As stated above, I’m NOT looking for an ‘auto-win’ button BUT if I pick a big club, play their best players in any sensible formation and on top of that sign a couple of new faces surely I shouldn’t be losing 4-0 at Stoke or Inverness CT and sitting in the bottom half of the table?

Yep I really cant see how the "its realistic" arguement holds any water.

Lets take the pre-match tactics I cant for the life of me see SAF before every single game saying to his players "ok show this guy onto his weaker foot,also show this guy onto his weaker foot,ohh before you go lads also show this guy onto his weaker foot"

also the ass manager comments...5 mins into the game "our passing is just terrible"..10 mins into the game "we are passing the ball around nicely" 20 mins into the game "we are giving the ball away far to often"

The way he changes his mind so often it is impossible to keep up with him and I largely just ignore him now,I am sure if real life managers were getting all these comments from there assistants they would soon fire them or knock them out!

Yep I really cant see how the "its realistic" arguement holds any water.

Lets take the pre-match tactics I cant for the life of me see SAF before every single game saying to his players "ok show this guy onto his weaker foot,also show this guy onto his weaker foot,ohh before you go lads also show this guy onto his weaker foot"

also the ass manager comments...5 mins into the game "our passing is just terrible"..10 mins into the game "we are passing the ball around nicely" 20 mins into the game "we are giving the ball away far to often"

The way he changes his mind so often it is impossible to keep up with him and I largely just ignore him now,I am sure if real life managers were getting all these comments from there assistants they would soon fire them or knock them out!

Ill be honest of all the new innovations in the fm series as its gone on i HATE with a passion the opposition instructions.

They are absolute twaddle and rarely ever do anything.

Last game i played newcastle and Alan Smith came on i told my players to close him down and tight mark him, literally every single time he received a pass he was in acres of space with no one anyone near him, and bear in mind i play Fernandes and Diarra in midfield (where they brought him on) who are very good DMCs.

How do opposition instructions relate to other individual player settings for example, its like SI thought... right we have an almost impossibly abstract and complex ME already, further complicated by team talks and media interaction lets add another layer of pointless complexity on top of that?!?!

I'm sure they work on which foot to push the player on to before the game, probably in training. Like "show Ronaldo on to his left foot".

The assistant feedback is a brilliant idea which is poorly implemented, much like confidence was in 08. It needs to be improved while the importance of the cursed sliders should be reduced I think.

Currently the problem is not difficulty or not even the necessity to tweak - the problem is that it's guesswork. Something that would be logical in real life is not necessarily so in FM and you simply have to tweak and pray. Due to the depth of the system, there are millions of tactical combinations but that also means millions of things that can go wrong and you just have no idea what and why went wrong, you only see that your players can't pass the ball and always lose headers and 50/50 balls.

I'm sure they work on which foot to push the player on to before the game, probably in training. Like "show Ronaldo on to his left foot".

Yes they may work on it for a few "special" players but not 5 or 6 players every single game,1 time I had 5 players getting shown onto there weaker foot and as soon as the game started,yep you guessed it my all knowing ass manager told me to show another player onto his weaker foot,it is just crazy to say this is realistic.

Yes they may work on it for a few "special" players but not 5 or 6 players every single game,1 time I had 5 players getting shown onto there weaker foot and as soon as the game started,yep you guessed it my all knowing ass manager told me to show another player onto his weaker foot,it is just crazy to say this is realistic.

you don't have to make the changes. I rarely use they opposition instructions and i am still successful.

Only use tackle hard on Gary Neville, he deserves it!

I've had a lot of success on this version, but even I agree its too hard. I only got my tactic through guess work as the sliders dont mean squat.

For me FM05 was the best. Good regens, hard enough to make you think, but not enough so you want to murder people.

The title of this thread doesn't do it justice. I expected it to be a pointless rant, followed by a stream of back-and-forth "fanboi" vs "its ur tactics" name-calling, before being quickly closed. To my surprise, instead I find a few intelligently written gems that mirror what I've been saying for years and sum up why I don't enjoy the game anymore ...

It's not the case that I just want to send 11 men out and win every time, rather that the match engine and our current method of controlling it, have lost a sense of connection to reality and are now an abstract maths game rather than a sports simulation.

However realistic the ME or transfer or financial elements of the game are, the interaction between the player and the ME is so far removed from realism any advances in the other areas are pretty much pointless. Bottom line: this game is not realistic, and it's almost entirely due to the way tactics have been implemented.

The very fact the TT&F documents not only exists but is pretty much required reading to begin to grasp the tactics in the game should highlight the fact there is a problem.