Becoming a powerful league....but little reward

Something that has bothered me a lot, but I have a split opinion on the matter.

Good FM players who stick to one league often totally revolutionize that league, this normally takes a lot of time, but it can happen. Scotland is, as we know are not one of biggest leagues in the world regarding stature. But as my game has continued one of the top four teams in this case being Hibs, Celtic, rangers and Dunfermiline are regularly competing and winning the champions league final, and UEFA cup final. Meaning there's now a total imbalance in the greatness of the clubs and how much money they are receiving for winning their own domestic league.

The winnings available for 1st place in the Scottish Premier League is 1m, I pay 1.2m for the squad bonus payout alone, which means I lose money even by winning the League. I'm pretty sure although untested this happens in many other leagues with a small winning available. The problem that arises is the huge wages going out as i'm a large club, and going out of the champions league for instance can lead me to having to sell a great player a season in order to break even. My club has lasted on being able to sign players for nothing and sell them as star players.

Now my two opinions differ. The current situation can remain in order to maintain the realism of the game.

OR

The winnings amount can change based on the development of the league meaning the team gets what they deserve. But this could be slightly risking as Fm would be almost trying to predict the future which could lead to possible bugs and more problems.

Has anybody else experienced these problems, and if so what is your opinion?

Me and my mate put ukraine top of the coefficients rankings so there were four champions league places and we gave all other teams like 300m to spend, i was arsenal kiev and my mate shakhtar, made it a really good game

Thanks for sharing that, my friend

yea, I like to see how a league develops, although I never like lower european leagues so I have to go this route making it competitive. That's ma gamestyle!

For me, it would make the game much more realistic and it could be, for Europe at least, based on European Coefficients. The higher the league gets in them the more prize money is available. Also, league reputation should be flexible and also change based on this as it is currently static. At the moment no matter how much success in Europe a club in, what is currently a lower league, achieves there will always be a barrier regarding their reputation which means they will never be able to attract the really big stars. I always wanted to improve the Irish League but knowing that they can only reach a certain level no matter what I do has put me off trying.

For me, it would make the game much more realistic and it could be, for Europe at least, based on European Coefficients. The higher the league gets in them the more prize money is available. Also, league reputation should be flexible and also change based on this as it is currently static. At the moment no matter how much success in Europe a club in, what is currently a lower league, achieves there will always be a barrier regarding their reputation which means they will never be able to attract the really big stars. I always wanted to improve the Irish League but knowing that they can only reach a certain level no matter what I do has put me off trying.

Exactly. It is hard to determine what leagues would potentially have a chance of becoming a top league, on the level of Italy, Spain and England. In the Scottish league you do have more of a chance because of Rangers and Celtic being enormous clubs. If you could ever take Ireland to such levels I'm unsure, but I know for a fact the restraints we're talking about would make it a damn difficult job.

You can turn a small club into a huge dynasty paying great wages and winning trophies and STILL have difficulty signing any player valued over 8m(In my case). The biggest problem is also keeping the players you currently have. Constant requests to leave and rejections to agree new contracts mean I lose great players all the time.

It's as if the AI is confused by success and therefore makes a lot of mistakes. As the stature of the clubs within the League develop and improve, the league, the club reputations and rewards should move in relation to that. This would really improve the game and bring a whole new dimension to it.

This is something that was discussed for several pages a while back and I still feel as if SI need to implement this into FM 09, if not in that, then in future FM releases. I myself manage in lower leagues of Europe and am definitely put off by this limitation, although I try not to think about it too much so that it wouldn't affect my game too much. It really is upsetting knowing that after decades (in-game time) of success and improvement in your team, you are still having trouble signing world class players due to the league reputation limit.

I'm all for this to be implemented in FM for the future and I hope SI really do take this as seriously as some of us do.

Exactly. It is hard to determine what leagues would potentially have a chance of becoming a top league, on the level of Italy, Spain and England. In the Scottish league you do have more of a chance because of Rangers and Celtic being enormous clubs. If you could ever take Ireland to such levels I'm unsure, but I know for a fact the restraints we're talking about would make it a damn difficult job.

You can turn a small club into a huge dynasty paying great wages and winning trophies and STILL have difficulty signing any player valued over 8m(In my case). The biggest problem is also keeping the players you currently have. Constant requests to leave and rejections to agree new contracts mean I lose great players all the time.

It's as if the AI is confused by success and therefore makes a lot of mistakes. As the stature of the clubs within the League develop and improve, the league, the club reputations and rewards should move in relation to that. This would really improve the game and bring a whole new dimension to it.

Success will improve club's reputation, however, it won't dramatically change the league's reputation. No matter what one single club achieves domestically as well as Internationally, the league reputation would hardly increase.

It takes massive number of teams as well as the national team of the that league to increase the league's reputation.

Have you ever wondered why Scotish leagues are less liked (by players) than English leagues?

It is the same reason I mentioned above, Many critiries must be considered before league's reputation increases.

Have you ever wondered why Al Ahli (the egyptain team) is less known outside Africa despite being the most successful club in the WHOLE WORLD?

They have literally won everything that they could but still they don't attract big players. God they can not keep their own players to further their success.

Despite being so successful both domestically and internationally, their league is not even as good as the lower leagues in Europe.

Anways, bringing back the topic to Europe:

* you need to win domestic as well as international club trophies with different teams in the same league before the league reputation can increase.

* All the facilities by the clubs in the league must be good...

- Stadiums

- Training Facilities

- etc

* Youth Facilities must be good

The reason why I said number of clubs must be well reputed is players don't want to play against Sunday League teams week in week. Despite your team is highly reputed, they won't still join you because the league you participate is below good standard. Like the example I gave about Al Ahli from Egypt.

I hope I made sense

BTW this is what I think... it might be wrong coz I dont know how Game codes work.

Cheers

Success will improve club's reputation, however, it won't dramatically change the league's reputation. No matter what one single club achieves domestically as well as Internationally, the league reputation would hardly increase.

Nowhere did I state I was referring to the success of one club dramatically changing the reputation of the league. I clearly stated several.

It takes massive number of teams as well as the national team of the that league to increase the league's reputation. Have you ever wondered why Scotish leagues are less liked (by players) than English leagues? It is the same reason I mentioned above, Many critiries must be considered before league's reputation increases.

You are stating obvious real life facts here, I fully understand what it requires for a league to become successful in REAL LIFE. Even though no professional. I’m questioning why such things are not reflected in the game.

Have you ever wondered why Al Ahli (the egyptain team) is less known outside Africa despite being the most successful club in the WHOLE WORLD? They have literally won everything that they could but still they don't attract big players. God they can not keep their own players to further their success. Despite being so successful both domestically and internationally, their league is not even as good as the lower leagues in Europe.

No I have never wondered that or even given it a second thought, because their players do not simply posses the quality that the top teams in Europe do, which could be assed by watching just a few games. This point is irrelevant, my comments were regarding Scotland, Scotland are eligible to enter the European champions League. Referring to my game here of course, I competed in 4 champions league finals winning two and losing two in only 7 seasons. I also just won the treble with Dunfermline. My reputation may have statistically improved, but I received very poor odds regarding winning the champions league again next season, every season. I wasn’t able to attract an higher caliber than I was before winning the champions league. You’re missing the point mate, Al Ahli can’t gain success because on a worldwide scale, no matter how much they win, they still suck balls. Al Ahli may have dominated what is possible for that club, but throw them in the Champions League and watch them flop.

Anways, bringing back the topic to Europe: * you need to win domestic as well as international club trophies with different teams in the same league before the league reputation can increase. * All the facilities by the clubs in the league must be good... - Stadiums - Training Facilities - etc * Youth Facilities must be good The reason why I said number of clubs must be well reputed is players don't want to play against Sunday League teams week in week. Despite your team is highly reputed, they won't still join you because the league you participate is below good standard. Like the example I gave about Al Ahli from Egypt. I hope I made sense BTW this is what I think... it might be wrong coz I dont know how Game codes work. Cheers

Regarding my fictional game of course. Celtic Hibernian and Dunfermline are regular competitors in the champions league all with huge crowds and large fan bases, all with top training facilities, stadiums are large, and training facilities are fantastic. They are struggling in a sense because another thing I often notice is stadium. Expansions do not happen outside of the club I’m in charge of, odd AI? Maybe the rest of the clubs are struggling to advance because of the fact they don’t receive enough reward money and television right money in order for them to advance like they rightly should be doing. Which was my original point. The clubs in my league, although there is only 12, are to a fantastic level. And therefore the games AI should be adjusting in rewarding such, otherwise the game struggles to advance and much of the fun in aiming for success and the enthusiasm to accomplish something is lost.

If I did come across in any way rude here I do apologize, this wasn’t my intent. But you do seem to have based your whole point on the basis that I said one large team could massively improve the leagues reputation, which I didn’t state at all. This thread was referring to a fictional scenario which I don’t think Football Manager manages to predict and organize very well.

I've done it with two already, but I could take control of all twelve teams in the League over time and win the champions league, and possibly the treble. During this time expansions and training facilities could be improved to the highest standard. I could practically turn the league into an amazingly powerful league with massive crouds and fantastic players, much like the English PL. Winning the league would be massive struggle due to the financial power within the leagues clubs, and I would STILL be rewardeed with a petty 1m for doing so, this was my point buddy.

This is something that was discussed for several pages a while back and I still feel as if SI need to implement this into FM 09, if not in that, then in future FM releases. I myself manage in lower leagues of Europe and am definitely put off by this limitation, although I try not to think about it too much so that it wouldn't affect my game too much. It really is upsetting knowing that after decades (in-game time) of success and improvement in your team, you are still having trouble signing world class players due to the league reputation limit.

I'm all for this to be implemented in FM for the future and I hope SI really do take this as seriously as some of us do.

I thought it might have been brought up already. The current game I've been on has gone on so long this is the first time I've been able to notice that little if any advances happen regarding the stature of the league. The difficulties of implementing such a thing must be extremely difficult, which is why they haven’t attempted to tackle the problem in other past releases. Logically if you have an increase in stature in one league, there must also be a possible downfall of another? Depending of course on how long your game goes on for. But I know people have continued games for 50+ years (game time) and in this time it is very likely for a possible shift in power across European leagues in particular.

Success will improve club's reputation, however, it won't dramatically change the league's reputation. No matter what one single club achieves domestically as well as Internationally, the league reputation would hardly increase.

It takes massive number of teams as well as the national team of the that league to increase the league's reputation.

Have you ever wondered why Scotish leagues are less liked (by players) than English leagues?

It is the same reason I mentioned above, Many critiries must be considered before league's reputation increases.

Have you ever wondered why Al Ahli (the egyptain team) is less known outside Africa despite being the most successful club in the WHOLE WORLD?

They have literally won everything that they could but still they don't attract big players. God they can not keep their own players to further their success.

Despite being so successful both domestically and internationally, their league is not even as good as the lower leagues in Europe.

Anways, bringing back the topic to Europe:

* you need to win domestic as well as international club trophies with different teams in the same league before the league reputation can increase.

* All the facilities by the clubs in the league must be good...

- Stadiums

- Training Facilities

- etc

* Youth Facilities must be good

The reason why I said number of clubs must be well reputed is players don't want to play against Sunday League teams week in week. Despite your team is highly reputed, they won't still join you because the league you participate is below good standard. Like the example I gave about Al Ahli from Egypt.

I hope I made sense

BTW this is what I think... it might be wrong coz I dont know how Game codes work.

Cheers

League reputation is completely static in the game. No matter how much success all the clubs of the league achieve in the game there will always be a barrier for them all as this has a bearing on how each individual clubs reps will be. Prize money is also static and never changes no matter how good the clubs in the league become.

It obviously works the other way as well as La Liga will always be the most reputable league in the game no matter how poor the clubs in it ever become.

I thought it might have been brought up already. The current game I've been on has gone on so long this is the first time I've been able to notice that little if any advances happen regarding the stature of the league. The difficulties of implementing such a thing must be extremely difficult, which is why they haven’t attempted to tackle the problem in other past releases. Logically if you have an increase in stature in one league, there must also be a possible downfall of another? Depending of course on how long your game goes on for. But I know people have continued games for 50+ years (game time) and in this time it is very likely for a possible shift in power across European leagues in particular.

I cannot imagine that it would be that difficult, to be honest. Although, I may be proved wrong. I read on here once why not link it with UEFA Coefficients, which is a good idea, as they are in the game and rank the European Leagues depending on how each league's clubs fare in European competitions. Why not use this ranking and this could be also linked in with prize money as the top leagues would get more. Obviously this would only work for the European leagues, though.

League reputation is completely static in the game. No matter how much success all the clubs of the league achieve in the game there will always be a barrier for them all as this has a bearing on how each individual clubs reps will be. Prize money is also static and never changes no matter how good the clubs in the league become.

It obviously works the other way as well as La Liga will always be the most reputable league in the game no matter how poor the clubs in it ever become.

League reputation only affects Club's reputation , nation league standard is an active variable that you can improve by winning European silverware , every time this increases AI teams in the league will buy better players.

The major obstacle in eastern European countries are not their league reputations but the "Developing" in the country profile .

A league becoming better is something realistic but prize and TV money are both completely unrelated because the market is limited , for example Scottish market only has 5.000.000 customers , on the other hand Polish market has 40.000.000 customers so prize money & sponsoring in Poland will always be more ( given that the "Developing" tag is removed ) .

Another variable ( that can not be reflected in the game ) is how a nation sees football as a game , in England football is for the upper middle class with expensive tickets , huge TV rights , thousands of sponsors and lucrative wages ; in Germany football is a game for the masses with cheap tickets , terraces for the poor and the ability to deny big TV money because "the channel wanted to play goals of the week TV show in 2:00am instead of the usual 5:00am " .

It's true about leage size, however, when introducing media money I think any leage (given the right success) should be able to move upwards, if for no other reason other then it's still a game and meant to be fun Realism is sometimes a bit harsh

Too true it would also help to keep the game interesting as well! as you watch a league go from nothing to something!! (well europe) anyway!

Yeah I play in the SPL and the prize money annoys me as it never changes and as you said at the start its a bit stupid when the normal pay out is 1.2 mil.

I would love to see finances change and the rep of the league change as teams make the league better, but doubt it will happen in FM09

Is it possible to change league reputation through FMM? I know it won't solve the problem but I'm just curious...

If we were going to do this "right" we would need to simulate:

- population changes over time

- national economies

- booms, recessions, and depressions

- inflation / deflation

- dynamic league reputation(s)

- dynamic "football culture" for a nation

This is an area close to my heart as an American "soccer" fan, I really want to see the U.S. develop a "football culture", and see the MLS establish itself as a league worthy of attracting players who aren't on their last legs.

I think it could be done "well" with just dynamic league reputation(s), but you have to remember that league reputations would need to change very slowly, and they would need to be resistant to one or two dominant teams from raising the entire league reputation out of hand.

For example, Scotland, which has a low rep despite Celtic and Rangers (IRL). Though I suppose it is a fair question to ask "How much do Celtic and Rangers currently raise the S.P.L.'s reputation by?"

If you wound up making "league reputation" that resistant to change, you'd really need a long-running multi-player game to start seeing real inroads into it (e.g., 8 of us playing in Holland and turning the Dutch Premier League into a global powerhouse) ..

.. and I think SI have decided that its a high-risk, low-reward proposition - because as many of us forum-posters play long-term games, the average customer plays a single team for one to five seasons, and would never see the impact of this sort of change.

why do everyone cheat and then complain about the game?

Facing easy opponents and winning every match isn't really fun. I tend to release good players or let their contracts run out so it'll be tougher facing teams. But, i hate how after i've sold him to, Barcelona they sold him to Chelsea, then sold him to Athletico and then to Newcastle and so on, it still bleeding says "Player X is facing his old team". Arrrghh!

Is it possible to change league reputation through FMM? I know it won't solve the problem but I'm just curious...

League reputation can't be changed with FMM.

I cannot imagine that it would be that difficult, to be honest. Although, I may be proved wrong. I read on here once why not link it with UEFA Coefficients, which is a good idea, as they are in the game and rank the European Leagues depending on how each league's clubs fare in European competitions. Why not use this ranking and this could be also linked in with prize money as the top leagues would get more. Obviously this would only work for the European leagues, though.

That sounds like a possible solution.

If we were going to do this "right" we would need to simulate:

- population changes over time

- national economies

- booms, recessions, and depressions

- inflation / deflation

- dynamic league reputation(s)

- dynamic "football culture" for a nation

This is an area close to my heart as an American "soccer" fan, I really want to see the U.S. develop a "football culture", and see the MLS establish itself as a league worthy of attracting players who aren't on their last legs.

I think it could be done "well" with just dynamic league reputation(s), but you have to remember that league reputations would need to change very slowly, and they would need to be resistant to one or two dominant teams from raising the entire league reputation out of hand.

For example, Scotland, which has a low rep despite Celtic and Rangers (IRL). Though I suppose it is a fair question to ask "How much do Celtic and Rangers currently raise the S.P.L.'s reputation by?"

If you wound up making "league reputation" that resistant to change, you'd really need a long-running multi-player game to start seeing real inroads into it (e.g., 8 of us playing in Holland and turning the Dutch Premier League into a global powerhouse) ..

.. and I think SI have decided that its a high-risk, low-reward proposition - because as many of us forum-posters play long-term games, the average customer plays a single team for one to five seasons, and would never see the impact of this sort of change.

Indeed. I'm talking 30-50 years before any substantial changes. I understand a lot of people don't play for that length of time, but many on here do. It would also bring another dimension into the game, regarding something even larger to aim for. For the makers of the game the concept may be very beneficial, I myself would play for hours knowing that type of advance was possible, as I’m sure you would in the American League. A 'long term goal' so to speak. I don't think it's necessarily required for 8 players to be in one league, could the possibility of an AI team also contributing not be considered? Even without other players, on many occasions I’ve signed good young players bringing them into the league, and then loaned or sold them to clubs in Scotland. Good post mate.

why do everyone cheat and then complain about the game?

Why do judgmental degenerate ******* like yourself lack the ability to read and voice their opinion constrictively without making poor unproductive posts?

Facing easy opponents and winning every match isn't really fun. I tend to release good players or let their contracts run out so it'll be tougher facing teams. But, i hate how after i've sold him to, Barcelona they sold him to Chelsea, then sold him to Athletico and then to Newcastle and so on, it still bleeding says "Player X is facing his old team". Arrrghh!

That's very true. Instead of releasing players purposely I just tend to move to a much worse club and improve them, giving myself a new challenge.

League reputation can't be changed with FMM.

Yes, you can. Simply type in the name of nation of the league, and select it. Once you've done that, you will see the option on the right hand side of FMM.

Yes, you can. Simply type in the name of nation of the league, and select it. Once you've done that, you will see the option on the right hand side of FMM.

No that is league standard that you are talking about. That is another variable but it is league reputation that is static and cannot be changed in FMM. League reputation is the one that is linked to club reputation.

Yep definitely a good idea SI should implement this

No that is league standard that you are talking about. That is another variable but it is league reputation that is static and cannot be changed in FMM. League reputation is the one that is linked to club reputation.

What is the difference between League Standard and League Reputation? I'm being thick here, but would like to know.

Best solution is what FIFA manager introduced and this is dual reputation , one for the domestic leagues and one for European competitions (with sponsoring attached to both)

As about population / income changes :

a)i think the game should be as simple as possible

b)Population and GNP growth in Europe are almost static in reality and i don't see how (and why) the game can (or should) handle socioeconomic conditions .

What is the difference between League Standard and League Reputation? I'm being thick here, but would like to know.

I am no expert on this myself but have learned this from other posts on the forums.

League reputation (under competitions in the pregame editor) - This acts as a barrier as such so if with a Scottish club that wins the Champions League all the time their club reputation will never be higher than 8500 (out of 10000) as the SPL's rep is 14 (out of 20). Say for example the League of Ireland's premier division rep is 9 so the highest any so no Irish club will ever gain even continental reputation in the game regardless of success. This means that clubs in lower leagues will never be able to atrract the top players and will struggle to hold on to their star players.

League standard (under nations in the pregame editor) - This does change in the game and can also be changed using FMM. This is again rated out of 20 and it increases by 1 every time a club from the league in question wins the Champions League. I think this has an effect on the quality of regens from that country but is not linked with club rep.

I repeat though that I am no expert on this and most of this information I have already read on the forums somewhere before.

League standard (under nations in the pregame editor) - This does change in the game and can also be changed using FMM. This is again rated out of 20 and it increases by 1 every time a club from the league in question wins the Champions League. I think this has an effect on the quality of regens from that country but is not linked with club rep.

I repeat though that I am no expert on this and most of this information I have already read on the forums somewhere before.

It means "better league" , for example if you have a national league standard of 9 clubs like Siena , West Ham , Schalke will skin you of your best players even if you are European champion ; when your league goes up to 18 they will not even attempt to ( fm07 excessively tested )

Also at a national league standard of 9 AI teams will be interested in players with CA 130 and many foreigners will not willing to sign for any club of this given league ; after you rise this to lets say 16 AI (domestic) teams will go sign far better CA players and everyone will be happy to join and play in your league.

I have not see any regen quality related issue so far.

It means "better league" , for example if you have a national league standard of 9 clubs like Siena , West Ham , Schalke will skin you of your best players even if you are European champion ; when your league goes up to 18 they will not even attempt to ( fm07 excessively tested )

Also at a national league standard of 9 AI teams will be interested in players with CA 130 and many foreigners will not willing to sign for any club of this given league ; after you rise this to lets say 16 AI (domestic) teams will go sign far better CA players and everyone will be happy to join and play in your league.

I have not see any regen quality related issue so far.

Okay, thanks for explaining that but when you say everyone will be happy to come and play in the league doesn't league competition rep come into it and say an Irish club, that has won say several Champions Leagues in a row and league standard at 20, will still not be able to attract someone like Kaka or Ronaldo to the club due to the barrier on club rep.

Okay, thanks for explaining that but when you say everyone will be happy to come and play in the league doesn't league competition rep come into it and say an Irish club, that has won say several Champions Leagues in a row and league standard at 20, will still not be able to attract someone like Kaka or Ronaldo to the club due to the barrier on club rep.

Yes this is true but realistically you won't be able to pay the wages of Kaka and after 20 years (that's how many you need to become a rep 20 league) there will be no Kaka around ; so keeping your best players at the club is the most important.

I believe the rep barrier should be fixed , losing points for winning a league is at least absurd .

Yes this is true but realistically you won't be able to pay the wages of Kaka and after 20 years (that's how many you need to become a rep 20 league) there will be no Kaka around ; so keeping your best players at the club is the most important.

I believe the rep barrier should be fixed , losing points for winning a league is at least absurd .

The rep barrier does need to be changed but I meant someone like Kaka and Ronaldo. I don't think signing Kaka and Ronaldo in 20 years time are going to improve your team.

As about population / income changes :

a)i think the game should be as simple as possible

b)Population and GNP growth in Europe are almost static in reality and i don't see how (and why) the game can (or should) handle socioeconomic conditions .

Why/should:

For non-Europe long-term games.

Population is *not* static in many parts of the world.

Economic factors are not static

The exchange rates between currencies adds a tremendous variation to the buying power of the dollar vs. the euro, for example

Countries need to be able to ditch the "Developing" tag, among other things!

I'm not saying that the game needs to do a full-on socioeconomic simulation just that there are many of these factors which feel like they are static in the game ... when the one thing history shows is that "stasis" is extremely unlikely.

When one looks at historical data, the "stasis" period in European population is rather coincidental to where we are at this exact moment in time. There's a table on wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Europe which I will reproduce here:

1950 - 547,405
1960 - 604,406
1970 - 655,862
1980 - 692,435
1990 - 721,390
2000 - 728,463
2005 - 728,389
2010 - 725,786*
2020 - 714,959*
2030 - 698,140*
2040 - 677,191*
2050 - 653,323*

Obviously, future data is projected - but if we're talking about 50-year-long games, population variation becomes something we need to consider. Obviously, if we're talking about five-year games, population variation remains slight enough, even during "boom" periods, that it can be treated as negligible.

As for "how/can", accuracy may not be as tremendously important here as *having some variation* is .. personally, I would find that it added to the "replay value" of the game if economic situations could differ from game to game.

In one game, perhaps the Scottish economy strengthens, therefore so do its teams' purchasing power .. in another, perhaps the Argentina economy goes into a tailspin, making already-cheap Argentina youths almost negligible in price.

And, of course, you could link some things but not others to in-game performance: perhaps a glorious run into the World Cup Final would be enough to trigger an increase in the U.S.A. "football culture" value .. but winning the Champions League with Celtic isn't going to improve the Scottish economy.

Its a dangerous trend, though - it would certainly be frustrating to be the Barcelona manager in the game where the Spanish economy tanked - and I've seen economic feedback loops in sports management games that tried to go down this path where you could wind up with ridiculously broken economies. So .. it isn't something I want to see done until it can be done "right" ..

.. and as I said earlier, I don't think SI are going to touch it, because its a high-risk feature which rewards only a small fraction of their most hardcore fans.

I have to constantly remind myself of this in my own work: "I am not my target audience."

And in this case, I am not actually SI's target audience, either ..

Still, i don't thik population has a great impact, any shortfall could be brought back up to pace with TV rights this way you could do it quicker with a resemblance of realism

I'm heartened to see Amaroq advocating some change here. I often used to get the sense that you were less ambitious. But anyway, I'm also an American who really would love to see the game grow here. Wait, that's beside the point.

I think one of the great things about being a longtime footie fan in the real world is seeing how leagues come into favor and out of favor over time. Europe always seems in a balancing act: Is the EPL the best league? La Liga? Bundesliga? Seria A? And as countries and teams have more or less success, the very top players drift from league to league over time, adding momentum and halting it on occasion.

If the game could represent this drift in the power balance of various leagues, I think it would add tremendously to the game. And we can see today that some leagues and teams try to buy their reputation because their leagues are not yet on par, but they have capital. While other leagues seem to drift into disrepair: Italy (scandal), France (wages, economics). Though no Englishman would every want to say it, the same could happen to the EPL if the country were in enough of a slump, socially or economically.

The effect of this power balance, even over a few seasons, could be really engaging for the game player. And for the dedicated long-term player, the chance to affect the balance with success or investment would add tremendously to the long-term game's rewards.

So I'm all for it, and I don't think its that much work or risk to start adding this into the game. Just some gradual drifting of league reps based on success and (random, though weighted) influx of investment, coupled with media speculation and player/manager migrations would be excellent.

Do it!

Why/should:

For non-Europe long-term games.

Population is *not* static in many parts of the world.

Economic factors are not static

The exchange rates between currencies adds a tremendous variation to the buying power of the dollar vs. the euro, for example

Countries need to be able to ditch the "Developing" tag, among other things!

I'm not saying that the game needs to do a full-on socioeconomic simulation just that there are many of these factors which feel like they are static in the game ... when the one thing history shows is that "stasis" is extremely unlikely.

When one looks at historical data, the "stasis" period in European population is rather coincidental to where we are at this exact moment in time. There's a table on wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Europe which I will reproduce here:

1950 - 547,405
1960 - 604,406
1970 - 655,862
1980 - 692,435
1990 - 721,390
2000 - 728,463
2005 - 728,389
2010 - 725,786*
2020 - 714,959*
2030 - 698,140*
2040 - 677,191*
2050 - 653,323*

Obviously, future data is projected - but if we're talking about 50-year-long games, population variation becomes something we need to consider. Obviously, if we're talking about five-year games, population variation remains slight enough, even during "boom" periods, that it can be treated as negligible.

As for "how/can", accuracy may not be as tremendously important here as *having some variation* is .. personally, I would find that it added to the "replay value" of the game if economic situations could differ from game to game.

In one game, perhaps the Scottish economy strengthens, therefore so do its teams' purchasing power .. in another, perhaps the Argentina economy goes into a tailspin, making already-cheap Argentina youths almost negligible in price.

And, of course, you could link some things but not others to in-game performance: perhaps a glorious run into the World Cup Final would be enough to trigger an increase in the U.S.A. "football culture" value .. but winning the Champions League with Celtic isn't going to improve the Scottish economy.

Its a dangerous trend, though - it would certainly be frustrating to be the Barcelona manager in the game where the Spanish economy tanked - and I've seen economic feedback loops in sports management games that tried to go down this path where you could wind up with ridiculously broken economies. So .. it isn't something I want to see done until it can be done "right" ..

.. and as I said earlier, I don't think SI are going to touch it, because its a high-risk feature which rewards only a small fraction of their most hardcore fans.

I have to constantly remind myself of this in my own work: "I am not my target audience."

And in this case, I am not actually SI's target audience, either ..

I am not saying that i disagree but i think that you are getting too far . Scotland will always be a small European country ( given that small is up to 10m people , medium is up to 25m and large is +40m) despite it's economy ;for sure where industry and business exist sponsoring is better than let's say agrarian Albania but i just do not think that Drambuie distillery will ever pay Celtic as much as Vodaphone is paying Madrid.

If you experiment a bit with data bases you will see that things can get very interesting ; as you may know the two biggest oil reserves discovered few months ago in Tupi and Atlantic coast of Brazil , so maybe the reality of the next 20 years will be Brazilian clubs with Saudi financial capabilities... (you need to edit continental rep too in order this scenario to work correctly )

On the other hand maybe in some countries the interest is shifting to other sports ( here in Greece it is already a reality basketball clubs to have bigger budgets from football clubs ) ; i can not think of a football manager game that uses random world events ....or maybe how about :Slovak league 14 teams ; if 7 clubs have feeders from China prize + tv money +500% ?

edit: and yes after some time "Developing" should be removed , at lest for EU countries .

We've discussed this to death in the past:(

Unfortunately, the stumbling block as I see it is that most of the changes we are suggesting would impact significantly in the finace model and as a resylt are not realistically achievable in the short term.

I like a lot of the suggestions so far and in particular, Amaroq has again gone into great detail and really thought long and hard about it. I know that tnhis was at the forefront of his mind at this time last year.

I would like to see a much more simple system though.

At the moment we have the following situation.

Competition reputation is static. This needs to be changed. An impact upon this could be a Championship side getting to the FA Cup Final or doing well in Europe, (by doing well I mean winning the odd game). As a reputation of a particular league increases then this should be linked to both prize money available, TV rights and attendances, and also sponsorship for participation in that competition.

National structure reputation is variable already, (well done SI), but it is not variable enough. I would prefer to see it directly linked to continental coefficients. This would have a far greater impact on the areas of prize, money, attendances,, sponsorship etc etc etc and would not have to impact upon the finance model at all as the existing system could be used with %'s changed in line with proportional changes in continental coefficients, (up or down).

When it comes to programming I will admit to being naive in the extreme, (in fact completely clueless would be a better description), but within this 1 area I can see significant room for improvement with only limited change to the existing system.

Just imagine it.

English teams do really well in Europe and win both Cups 6 years in a row. As a result their Continental coefficient improves by 6% compared to what it was at the start, (I'm just making up figures here). If the code then improved attendances, prize money, & sponsorship, (In the English structure as a whole, not each English club individually), then that would be an ideal solution. The attendances, prize money & sponsorship of each Eglish club could be calculated in the existing way, (but from an overall pool that is now 6% larger than it was initially).

Now to balance the books and keep the finance model running smoothly we need to find a structure (or structures), that have dropped in Continental coefficient to balance the books so to speak.

Lets assume that in this case the Italian structure were the fall guys. As a result of Juve's cheating and the sanctions imposed upon them, players stopped moving to Italian clubs and their performances suffered as a result. They regularly failed to make the group stages of either competition and their continental ranking fell by 6% over the same period.

To ensure that there is not too much money in the game, we would then reduce their attendances, prize money and sponsorship by 6 %, (with individual club amounts still calculated in the existing manner), but from a pool that is now 6% lower than when the game started.

I'm not sure that I have expleined that very well but with the new forum I am unable to link you to some of the excellent discussions we have had on this in the past

Credit where credit is due though. Well done to SI for making National structure reputation variable already. That is a big step in the right direction.

Yeah I see your point Jimbokav, other leagues need to reduce in standard in order for others to increase as the game has to be balanced. Personally I never thought it would be that difficult to implement as I ever thought of it in those terms and by looking at it like that it does seem a tricky thing to do correctly. I would love this to be implemented, however, so hopefully SI can achieve it.

It isn't a zero sum game jimbokav and jod123, nor does it need to be. Really. It is not a zero sum game. Your arguments are silly. That is, unless you restrict them to coefficients. Only 'relative strength' is 'relative'. Attendances and prize money are not dependent or even correlated with coefficients of relative strength.

I don't think that setting up the balancing forces is, or would be at all difficult to do, either in theory, or in programming. The reason I think so is that it doesn't have to be true to economic and social reality. It only has to approximate it in a rough manner in order to convey the sense of change and dynamism to the leagues over time. Its just: Is it worth Joe Programmer's 20-40 hours of time? And the bottom line is: I don't think SI will invest in this, but I wish they would. Until such time as they are under pressure to compete with a quality piece of software they are going to go with the game they have. Sad though, because it (FM) isn't nearly as immersing as it could be. Not nearly.

Smac.

Apologies but I have absolutely no idea what you mean by "It isn't a zero sum game".

As for Joe programmer wasting 20-40 hours in order to achieve this and deciding therefore that it is not time well spent theb you are soooooo mistaken.

I would suggest, that if what I have outlined above could be achieved by a team of 10 programmers, (each spending 20-40 hours in order to achieve this), then thay and their bosses would consider it an investment in time.

Unfortunately, the knock on effects of this sort of stuff is enormous and I guess can be likened to the domino affect.

I think the proof that SI intend to advance down this route is in the introduction of variable structure reputation in FM08.

In general I like the direction in which the game is going and this is just another forward step.

I do agree with you though that the system they put in place doesn't have to be true to real life economics. From a laypersons point of view, the long term stability of the finance structure is probably one of SI's greatest achievement within the game. Anything that will impact on this should be treated with kids gloves before being introduced.

why could we not simply add sponsership to the leagues the same as club sponsership but link league payouts to this sponsership and sponsership linked to clubs performance in contenential competitions? all contenents have competions now