Why are players mental attributes so low in south american leagues?

I wonder why the mental attributes from players in Brazilian and Argentinian Leagues are so low. You look at English players stats, and quite frankly, i never understand why theres so many 18s, 19s and 20s on every average to good player. So just because a player is playing in a league with less reputation they cant have good bravery or determination? Or they cant have good teamwork? Its quite stupid really.

I dont get why the player potential ability has to be tied to the league he plays in. So just because a player wont get as famous as a player in Europe leagues he cant be good?

Imo PA/CA is quite flawed

I do not see a problem with how the players are rated. Which average English players are you talking about that have many 18, 19 or 20's?

So you dont see a problem with players in Lower Rep leagues having lower mental stats? You really dont see the discrepancy here? How is a players reputation tied in any way to his mental attributes? So a player cant be good unless he plays in Europe?

One question: have you seen Luis Suarez play?

That's your answer.

So you dont see a problem with players in Lower Rep leagues having lower mental stats? You really dont see the discrepancy here? How is a players reputation tied in any way to his mental attributes? So a player cant be good unless he plays in Europe?

I never said a player can't be good unless they play in Europe. You on the other hand cannot name an average English player who has 18. 19 or 20's that plays in England. Provide examples and people may take your post seriously.

Just take your pick from any player in England national team. Their stats are among the best players in the game and quite honest England is quite overrated in FM

One question: have you seen Luis Suarez play?

That's your answer.

FYI Suarez is playing in Liverpool, making my point even more valid, kthnx.

Look at the mental stats in some of the players in teams like Venezuela and Peru. They beat the likes of Brazil and Argentina to the semifinals of South America Cup, with the likes of Messi and Aguero and Tevez playing. Now tell me why their mental stats are so low now.

Just take your pick from any player in England national team. Their stats are among the best players in the game and quite honest England is quite overrated in FM

I disagree, England are pretty much a permanent fixture in FIFA's top 10 (currently 6th I believe). England, in recent years at least, tends to produce the type of player that in FM would have strong physical and mental attributes, if lacking slightly in the technical attributes compared to their Spanish, Brazilian and Argentine counterparts. I think the FM researchers have done quite a good job over-all.

Look at the mental stats in some of the players in teams like Venezuela and Peru. They beat the likes of Brazil and Argentina to the semifinals of South America Cup, with the likes of Messi and Aguero and Tevez playing. Now tell me why their mental stats are so low now.

How much of this tournament did you watch?

:/

Why cant people just read the title?

I disagree, England are pretty much a permanent fixture in FIFA's top 10 (currently 6th I believe). England, in recent years at least, tends to produce the type of player that in FM would have strong physical and mental attributes, if lacking slightly in the technical attributes compared to their Spanish, Brazilian and Argentine counterparts. I think the FM researchers have done quite a good job over-all.

How much of this tournament did you watch?

I wonder how much YOU watched. Venezuela and Peru played for third and fourth places while Uruguai and Paraguay did the finals

I wonder how much YOU watched. Venezuela and Peru played for third and fourth places while Uruguai and Paraguay did the finals

That's not what I'm getting at. Results in 1 off matches don't tell the whole story, obviously. Did you watch the actual games, or are you looking at final scores and making stuff up in your head based solely on them?

Setting all this aside, i wasnt even asking about skill, wich quite honestly is absolutely a pointless discussion, considering everyones opinions will be based on what they consider good. I was mainly talking about Mental Attributes. Its sooo hard to find good tutors for players in South American leagues mainly because all their mental attributes are so low, wich makes absolutely no sense. Just because a player isnt famous or even have good skill, he can have better than 10s and 12s on his mental attributes cant he? I mean why do they have to have low agression, determination and influence just because they play in lower leagues?

Mental attributes shouldnt be tied to a players PA is what i mean.

I think that people are deviating from the original point from the OP which i totally agree, regardless of the level of play there are agressive,brave players anywhere but i guess it's this way to try to maintain some game balance because of the importance of certain attributes on the ME.

This also kind of applies to physical stats as well.. namely jumping, it really doesn't make sense to me that some guys that are 1.90m have 18 jumping while some other guy of the same height has only a 12 or 13 jumping just because he plays on some lower league..

But again i understand it's this way to keep the game balanced..

FYI Suarez is playing in Liverpool, making my point even more valid, kthnx.

Look at the mental stats in some of the players in teams like Venezuela and Peru. They beat the likes of Brazil and Argentina to the semifinals of South America Cup, with the likes of Messi and Aguero and Tevez playing. Now tell me why their mental stats are so low now.

I'm a supporter of AFC Ajax, don't you think I know a bit about Suarez? :')

The thing I was aiming at was Luis being a prototype of the kind of players who come from South America. They are mentally completely different to European players.

I'm a supporter of AFC Ajax, don't you think I know a bit about Suarez? :')

The thing I was aiming at was Luis being a prototype of the kind of players who come from South America. They are mentally completely different to European players.

Oh yea, i totally misunderstood the point. And yes you got what i meant.

But the poster above nailed the point of my topic. Mental attributes and physical traits shouldnt be linked to a players fame or the league he plays in by any means, or even the potential ability for that matter.

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. It's the South American researchers that set these values, provided with the same guidelines as everyone else, so I can only assume that this is how the players are perceived...? Or is this about newgen templates?

First of all, I reckon the South American leagues are researched by local lads, or at least by people with a good understanding and knowledge of said leagues... so the OP half-implying the mental stats of many S.A. players are low due to some English-centric prejudice is way off the mark.

Honestly, I'm not surprised to see relatively low values even for good players in Team Work, Workrate, Concentration etc... After all the typical Brazilian (or generically South American) player is famous for being creative and talented but also erratic and lazy...

Prejudice? Maybe so... but out of 100 famous South American stars are there more "Dunga" or more "Edmundo"?

Can you really deny the average player in South America tends to be more hot-headed and generally speaking "unprofessional" than the his German/English counterpart?

I mean, even taking into account famous players, the list of erratic players from S.A. would be much longer than the one of European players with the same attitude.

About player from lower leagues being more "professional" in England, I think it's a matter of culture... English fans would rather see a technically limited guy giving everything he has for the team, while elsewhere they'd rather admire a "firuleiro" doing some tricks and ultimately being useless for the team despite having all the tools to be decisive

P.S. English players aren't really "overrated" in FM, I'd say they're a bit too "well-rounded" though...

If we really want to make that kind of sweeping generalization then the English players need their technique,decisions,first touch all to be lowered, but again people are missing the point from the OP..

If we really want to make that kind of sweeping generalization then the English players need their technique,decisions,first touch all to be lowered, but again people are missing the point from the OP..

This is exactly my point. Im talking about mental attributes and all people talk about is technique. Ill try to explain one last time.

Why are mental attributes and physical traits such as jumping and speed and influence, and aggression, and whatever other physical and mental attributes you can think of so limited in other leagues other than europes main leagues?

I suppose there's an assumption that the best players tend to find their way into the best leagues, but it's ultimately a matter of researcher judgement. If these values are low in the leagues you have in mind, that's what the local researchers thought of these players. There's probably a bit of overestimation going on in the biggest leagues given the hype around them, but considering how much people complain in the data forum about low attributes for players in those very leagues, I don't think it's likely to be all that significant.

I guess the short answer is "Ask the researchers."

Why are mental attributes and physical traits such as jumping and speed and influence, and aggression, and whatever other physical and mental attributes you can think of so limited in other leagues other than europes main leagues?

Now you're changing the tune...

You never talked about physical attributes in the opening post...

Anyway: players from smaller leagues will inevitably have lower CA, thus fewer points to be distruted between attributes... Therefore unless a player is REMARKABLY good at something, he'll get an "average" attribute...

E.g. Jan Koller would have been given 20 Heading whether he was playing in EPL or in Czech 2nd division, while non-physical-related attributes such as technical skills or mental traits tend to be "flattened" a bit for balance reasons.

To oversimplify it: if a player is so good and "balanced" odds are he would already play in a better league... so arguing a 2nd division guy should be given 15+ attributes is a bit strange.

Can you really argue every generic S.A. talent should deserve to be rated like an EPL/La Liga first team regular?

Then again, about mental traits, you seem to conveniently forget how football culture and mentality is different from country to country...

It's not prejudice or generalization... in fact I'm sure you won't find plenty of technically gifted players in English Lower Leagues, or even at bottom-EPL level

Guess i was counting people would actually read the title before replying. And my intention is actually try to get an answer off people that make the game,. If i just wanted to start assuming i wouldnt be posting on the official forums.

Ive been talking about mental attributes since the first post. I just mentioned the physical traits basically because its the same principle. Just read up. Im not asking about technically gifted players im asking about mental traits. Thats not something that necessarily only good players possess.

The data forum is full of researchers, you can probably contact a lot of them directly there. The SI devs don't set the attributes so they probably can't answer the question in your thread title directly, but hey, I guess we can all hope for a comment.

The data forum is full of researchers, you can probably contact a lot of them directly there. The SI devs don't set the attributes so they probably can't answer the question in your thread title directly, but hey, I guess we can all hope for a comment.

Cool, ill try posting there, and hope people actually read before replying lol. Thanks

Either way i dont think this is a DATA problem tho. ITs more like a design flaw. Basically because the CA/PA values force lower league players to have lower mental and physical traits so their values dont get too high.

Its just a flaw in the design, and i was hoping i would get an answer telling me why the mental and physical traits are part of the potential value of a player, basically because i feel this is too limiting.

Maybe the real question is should ask is : Why are mental and physical traits part of a players PA?

That would be more fitting

Actually, not all of them are. Determination, for example, does not spend ability points. Generally though a player with 15/15 for Jumping/Creativity is a better (more able) player than someone with 5/5, so they are (probably righfully) considered better players by the game. My view is that the weighting could probably be tweaked; right now physical attributes for example spend a lot of ability points, especially for defensive positions, resulting in physical but otherwise unremarkable players being rare in lower leagues, quite contrary to what you'll often find for real.

That's interesting, i always thought that Determination costs CA.

I agree with OP. There are mental stats that can't be trained so much as bravery, aggression, influence and determination. These should be fairly random and not depending on the league. In case they are connected to CA points, I understand why lower league players stats are reduced but (unless aggression and influence give the player too much advantage in the eyes of ME) could be disconnected from CA in the future.

I don't agree with jumping. Jumping is connected to height, so you would assume that 1.90 defender is able to jump, although there are differences. If you have noticed, not all 1.90 basketball players are able to dunk, so height alone doesn't say everything and, with jumping being clearly connected to CA, it's correct that EPL 1.90 player jumps higher than 1.90 players from lower divisions. Although, ratings like 4 or 5 for jumping for 1.90 guy seem too low, but you haven't noticed any of those, have you?

When talking about physical attributes, it's generally hard to be good in all departments (strong, quick, good stamina and well balanced). That's why these players play in big clubs. You can easily find a 2.00 central defender in lower leagues who dominates all aerial challenges and rate him with 20 jumping and 18 heading, but at the same time he would be fairly slow and he would have either a Peter-Crouch-like body (= fairly weak, but fairly agile) or fairly strong (= a bit overweight) and therefore very very slow player with poor stamina.

only certain mental attributes are linked to CA/PA, but i do think they should be tied into a players ability, at the end of the day it is pointless having top technical attributes without the mental stats to back them up.

I think that people are deviating from the original point from the OP which i totally agree, regardless of the level of play there are agressive,brave players anywhere but i guess it's this way to try to maintain some game balance because of the importance of certain attributes on the ME.

This also kind of applies to physical stats as well.. namely jumping, it really doesn't make sense to me that some guys that are 1.90m have 18 jumping while some other guy of the same height has only a 12 or 13 jumping just because he plays on some lower league..

But again i understand it's this way to keep the game balanced..

This confuse's me too, since they said that the jumping attribute is now not a skill and is to do with how tall you are.

Is Zigic at Birmingham not taller than Crouch at Spurs? And does Crouch have a higher jumping stat than Zigic???????

I never questioned the jumping stat before cos i assumed it was to do with how good the player was at jumping. Tim Cahill for example.

But with 11.1 i think Cahill was giving 12/13 ish for jumping which sounds about right because he's not that tall, but baffles me when i see players like Zigic with a lower jumping stat than players smaller than him with the new jumping stats rule.

I don't agree with jumping. Jumping is connected to height, so you would assume that 1.90 defender is able to jump, although there are differences. If you have noticed, not all 1.90 basketball players are able to dunk, so height alone doesn't say everything and, with jumping being clearly connected to CA, it's correct that EPL 1.90 player jumps higher than 1.90 players from lower divisions. Although, ratings like 4 or 5 for jumping for 1.90 guy seem too low, but you haven't noticed any of those, have you?

I agree that the top clubs normally have the best athletes and it's natural that they will jump higher but i just think the difference might be a little extreme so that a PL guy has an 18 in jumping while a lower division player has a 12 ou 13 despite having the same height.

But it all comes down to the importance of physicals in the match engine so i understand that..

This confuse's me too, since they said that the jumping attribute is now not a skill and is to do with how tall you are.

Is Zigic at Birmingham not taller than Crouch at Spurs? And does Crouch have a higher jumping stat than Zigic???????

I never questioned the jumping stat before cos i assumed it was to do with how good the player was at jumping. Tim Cahill for example.

But with 11.1 i think Cahill was giving 12/13 ish for jumping which sounds about right because he's not that tall, but baffles me when i see players like Zigic with a lower jumping stat than players smaller than him with the new jumping stats rule.

From what i know Jumping just represents how high a player can reach and the height is purely cosmetical..

From what i know Jumping just represents how high a player can reach and the height is purely cosmetical..

I seem to remember from earlier discussions on these forums that jumping was mainly but not completely based on height; a small correction is made based on athleticism/ability to leap. iirc the Everton researcher said that based solely on his height Cahill should get 12/13, but because of his ability to leap he got 14. I believe it is realistic that a player in a lower league will not be quite as athletic as an EPL player - if only because he won't train as often - but I agree with you that the difference shouldn't be too big.

From what i know Jumping just represents how high a player can reach and the height is purely cosmetical..

No, I have a 200cm/95kg CD with 18/19 in jumping and strength, and a 189cm CD with the same attributes and better skill - but the former fellow powers in corner goals from the rear post all the time while the latter does this rarely.

Height certainly affects the chance a player has to win headers, along with Jumping, Strength, Anticipation, Acceleratio/Pace, Bravery, Weight and Aggression as well as morale and ability.

The OP was asking about mentals, but as he himself introduced physicals into the debate I would like to take this opportunity to ask if Natural Fitness in FM11 requires CA to improve. I don't play FM11 so can't check it out, but I would be surprised to find it does. Can anybody enlighten me?

Cheers

xxx

No, I have a 200cm/95kg CD with 18/19 in jumping and strength, and a 189cm CD with the same attributes and better skill - but the former fellow powers in corner goals from the rear post all the time while the latter does this rarely.

Height certainly affects the chance a player has to win headers, along with Jumping, Strength, Anticipation, Acceleratio/Pace, Bravery, Weight and Aggression as well as morale and ability.

I think there's a quote from an SI employee about this somewhere if i can find it, that's where i got this from.. that jumping just represents the maximum height a player can reach.

Though i suppose height could make a difference on headers where people don't jump.

The OP was asking about mentals, but as he himself introduced physicals into the debate I would like to take this opportunity to ask if Natural Fitness in FM11 requires CA to improve. I don't play FM11 so can't check it out, but I would be surprised to find it does. Can anybody enlighten me?

Cheers

xxx

no natural fitness is not one of the attributes linked to CA/PA.

As an answer to the OP, I would say that mental attributes must certainly be tied to ability - even more than physical and technical attributes.

The mental attributes are the player's head, and it is what is inside the skull that decides whether a football player is good or not. There are many athletes around the world that would never have what it takes to become good footballers, and there are many tricksters who wouldn't either. The decisive point is always his mentality.

Anticipation, Composure, Concentration, Creativity, Decisions, Determination, Flair, Off the ball, Positioning, Team Work and Work Rate, as well as Professionality, Ambition, Sportsmanship and Pressure handling, are by far the most important attributes for a football player. The genes (physical attributes) are useless without them, and since the technical attributes require thousands of hours of practice each to become good enough to be used in this profession, the right mind-set is a prerequisite to learn them.

So players play in lower leagues (including S.A) because they have poor mental attributes, not like you say.. that they have poor mental attributes because they play in lower leagues.

I think there's a quote from an SI employee about this somewhere if i can find it, that's where i got this from.. that jumping just represents the maximum height a player can reach.

Though i suppose height could make a difference on headers where people don't jump.

I remember the same thing, the jumping attribute calculates the maximum height a player can reach, when combined with other attributes, situation, opposition ect, the height is just a number shown and doesnt influence the jumping attribute.

So players play in lower leagues (including S.A) because they have poor mental attributes, not like you say.. that they have poor mental attributes because they play in lower leagues.

Thats a very good explanation, well put!

no natural fitness is not one of the attributes linked to CA/PA.

Thanks, I know that already, and I realise it seems a dumb question given I do, but there is apparently a way of improving Natural Fitness in FM11 and I wondered if CA was used in making that improvement.

Thanks, I know that already, and I realise it seems a dumb question given I do, but there is apparently a way of improving Natural Fitness in FM11 and I wondered if CA was used in making that improvement.

Attributes that aren't tied to CA can be improved/changed through certain events. Like tutoring, personal relations, winning something, being awarded something, disciplinary events and others.

(unbolded are speculations)

According to the manual how high you can leap is a combination of height and jumping skill http://www.footballmanager.com/manual/172

What BiggusD describes is a combination of attributes to win a header. Though I'm not sure whether pace/acceleration and weight counts.

Thanks, I know that already, and I realise it seems a dumb question given I do, but there is apparently a way of improving Natural Fitness in FM11 and I wondered if CA was used in making that improvement.

According to the training screen the strength category covers natural fitness.