Bayern and Flick changing they way I play

[thizaum]

Hi all,

 

Following the "I'd 8-2 to be a Barça fan" last night, I was fairly eager to see what would be said here about the match and the way Bayern plays.

I've always been a fan of Cruyffism and the tiki-taka, both in real life and in FM, so I wanted to take a stab at trying this in the game.

Although some people might disagree, I see Bayern's tactic as a form of Gegenpressing, which I'm well aware that has been very successful in FM20.

So I decided to scrape my "Fluid, control possession" tactics and tried to create my version of the Flick tactic. In order to do that, I matched what the tactic creator recommendations for a Gegenpress with what I saw last night.

I'm currently managing Barcelona (ironically), but well into the future. The following match was at home against Benfica and my guess using my regular formation would be anywhere between 0-0 to 2-0 as result.

Using my custom Flick tactic, the match ended 4-0. But my main surprise, and the reason for the topic, was the match stats. It's incredible to see such a small possession with so many goal chances (and vice-versa for Benfica).

What's your take on this?

Note: I used the 4-3-3, but I also prepared a 4-2-3-1.

[giggety]

51 minutes ago, thizaum said:

What's your take on this?

 

Your tactics looks nothing like Flick/Bayern at all, but that might be another discussion.

You play 'attacking' mentality with extremely high tempo against a side who plays a cautious approach. That's the answer. We've seen it in FM20 that cautious teams can rack some insane possession numbers against superior opposition.

[thizaum]

11 minutes ago, giggety said:

Your tactics looks nothing like Flick/Bayern at all, but that might be another discussion.

Nothing? Apart from being 4-3-3 in this match instead of 4-2-3-1, would you mind sharing your thoughts on how far this is in your opinion?

[crusadertsar]

16 minutes ago, giggety said:

Your tactics looks nothing like Flick/Bayern at all, but that might be another discussion.

You play 'attacking' mentality with extremely high tempo against a side who plays a cautious approach. That's the answer. We've seen it in FM20 that cautious teams can rack some insane possession numbers against superior opposition.

No I don't think so. By playing attacking with extremely high tempo is how you end up with 8-2 against a superior side. 

[Razor940]

4 minutos atrás, crusadertsar disse:

No I don't think so. By playing attacking with extremely high tempo is how you end up with 8-2 against a superior side. 

I think it depends on a lot of things and how you approach the game on various aspects. If I would counter attack a superior side I would probably use attack mentality, a very structured fluidity, deep lines, and high tempo. You want to break with very fast transitions, you dont want to be any less than fast. The lines are what will dictate more how you play. 

And I don't agree at all on having to play with extreme positive mentalities with high tempos against cautious sides, this is football, this is not black and white like maths.

[Enzo_Francescoli]

3 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

No I don't think so. By playing attacking with extremely high tempo is how you end up with 8-2 against a superior side. 

Against a vastly inferior side that stupidly keeps trying to build from the back even if it is clear that it isnt working to an alien attending its first football game on earth (it’s obviously immune to covid so allowed to attend games). I realize barcelona dont have the players nor the identity to launch long balls behind the pressing line but i havent seen a team so willingly go into the slaughterhouse in a long time. Their manager should’ve been fired at half time.

[Hilly1979]

5 hours ago, Razor940 said:

I think it depends on a lot of things and how you approach the game on various aspects. If I would counter attack a superior side I would probably use attack mentality, a very structured fluidity, deep lines, and high tempo. You want to break with very fast transitions, you dont want to be any less than fast. The lines are what will dictate more how you play. 

And I don't agree at all on having to play with extreme positive mentalities with high tempos against cautious sides, this is football, this is not black and white like maths.

The more I play this game I believe it is all about the maths though..... take a perfect well balanced tactic truish to real life and it can fail..... take a totally unbalanced tactic contradictory to real life tactics and people find success.

I play to the former, think that’s where I’m going wrong...

[dekzeh]

20 minutes ago, Hilly1979 said:

The more I play this game I believe it is all about the maths though..... take a perfect well balanced tactic truish to real life and it can fail..... take a totally unbalanced tactic contradictory to real life tactics and people find success.

I play to the former, think that’s where I’m going wrong...

I mean, if someone posted here about their 4231 with Bayern using Goretzka and Thiago as their double pivot with a very offensive fullback and two ball playing defenders (one with the permission to dribble forward even) AND running extremely urgent pressing + Get Stuck In, imagine what the comments would be like: "Needless aggressive out of possession instructions" "CMs aren't good enough defensively and playing too offensively minded roles for a 4231" "One of the fullbacks should be more contained". Yet we see Goretzka and Kimmich stepping into the box, Davies sometimes transitioning into a winger with Alaba stepping into LB, whilst Thiago drops back into his position alongside Boateng, forming the 2 in their 2-3-5 (god I wish we had better ways of emulating some of the fluid movements Bayern has).

The point is, both what you see as 'totally balanced' or something 'completely unbalanced' can succeed OR fail, it depends on a lot of things. People have success with either way of playing, and there are lots of posts by people struggling with either way of playing, and that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the game.

[crusadertsar]

Sometimes a good offense is the best defence. And sometimes even the most balanced tactic won't save a badly planned team from letting in 8 goals. 

[nick1408]

 

Caveat: I haven't actually seen Bayern play so take the following with a pinch of salt....

First off, looking at Muller I don't think he is an AP-At and the video above does sort of lead me to this as well. The video states Muller isn't a good dribbler, his dribbling in game is not good and his passing is ok. This is backed up by his actual profile (AP-At attributes highlighted:

I'm not sure what I'd be wanting him to do but it would most likely be AM-At or AM-Su so I could set him to dribble less. I'd consider SS-At but again, that needs dribbling so I'd maybe want a PPI of 'Runs With Ball Occasionally'.

 

Secondly, Id have the LB as a WB-At with 'Close Down More' and the RB as something more defensive due to Kimmich's lack of pace. Even though it isn't how Flick plays I'd play Kimmich specifically as a IWB-De to exploit his passing ability and cover for his lack of pace. Kimmich specifically I'd ask to cross from deep as I really can't afford for him to get caught high up the ground.

Goretzka would be a CM-Su for me. While he isn't overly defensive I'd be expecting a more covering role but I don't want the roaming of BBM. I may add something like 'Stay Wider' but I'd have to see how it played out in match. He will still get forward on occasion so should still be a threat in the right circumstances.

Thiago would be a DLP-De. This wouldn't suit an IWB behind him but if it was me I wouldn't be using Kimmich as a RB, I'd be using Pavard or Odriozola. DLLP-De does drop deep so this should allow him to have the passing optiong he saw in the game vs Barcelona.

Gnabry can't cross so would be an IF for me. Again, I'd need to watch the game to see how it played out to decide on support or attack. This would also depend on the ST and AM roles.

Perisic I would play as a IW-Su. He will sit narrower and still allow the FB to natually overlap without the need to set the instruction specifically. I may set Overlap depending on how the match actually played out.

Note: On the two wingers I may try something funky like swap positions and using personalised roles when they do swap. Roaming would also be a consideration for all four front players

Lewandowski would be a pressing forward for me. He presses centre backs and allows Muller to find space. Noting this, I'd most likely have him on support. It shouldn't take away from his scoring duties but mean the team build as a unit before finding the right time to score.

 

The above video is what I worked on for the Team Instructions:

This is purely a starting point specifically vs the Barca side that was rolled out. Barca didn't play traditional wingers and as such there isn't much need to defend wide as there would be in most FM games. Therein lies the issue that has been noted:

10 hours ago, dekzeh said:

I mean, if someone posted here about their 4231 with Bayern using Goretzka and Thiago as their double pivot with a very offensive fullback and two ball playing defenders (one with the permission to dribble forward even) AND running extremely urgent pressing + Get Stuck In, imagine what the comments would be like: "Needless aggressive out of possession instructions" "CMs aren't good enough defensively and playing too offensively minded roles for a 4231" "One of the fullbacks should be more contained". Yet we see Goretzka and Kimmich stepping into the box, Davies sometimes transitioning into a winger with Alaba stepping into LB, whilst Thiago drops back into his position alongside Boateng, forming the 2 in their 2-3-5 ....

Ultimately, the AI will not play exactly as Barca played the other night - I'd even suggest they will never roll out a 4-4-2 for Barca and especially play that starting XI together. Flick took advantage of the Barca XI and the tactics chosen and exploited every possible weakness they had.

[denen123]

17 hours ago, giggety said:

Your tactics looks nothing like Flick/Bayern at all, but that might be another discussion.

You play 'attacking' mentality with extremely high tempo against a side who plays a cautious approach. That's the answer. We've seen it in FM20 that cautious teams can rack some insane possession numbers against superior opposition.

If what i type comes off as scathing, please call me out (because it's not my intention):

Going by roles, it does indeed look close to a replication, the 4-2-3-1(would argue that Muller is an SS-a, and perisic played W-su on left, with Davies, WB-a overlapping). I think we need to tailor some of our criticism better. Your point about "Cautious" teams racking up possession numbers maybe true to a bit(especially when teams play deep formations), but not true in it's entirety. Bustthenet guy, for example, plays heavy tactics with very attacking mentality & still holds possession stats.

 

[dekzeh]

3 hours ago, nick1408 said:

Ultimately, the AI will not play exactly as Barca played the other night - I'd even suggest they will never roll out a 4-4-2 for Barca and especially play that starting XI together. Flick took advantage of the Barca XI and the tactics chosen and exploited every possible weakness they had.

You're right, I forgot that the game vs Barça was the only game they played under Flick, not like they have won their last 18 games in a row and haven't lost a game in 2020, playing against all sorts of different teams and formations.

[nick1408]

1 hour ago, dekzeh said:

You're right, I forgot that the game vs Barça was the only game they played under Flick, not like they have won their last 18 games in a row and haven't lost a game in 2020, playing against all sorts of different teams and formations.

I agreed with you - it isn't possible to replicate the match vs Barca (in my opinion) as the AI won't play as Barca did. You're right in that people asking advice would get the feedback you posted.

 

Have I taken you out of context somehow?

[dekzeh]

24 minutes ago, nick1408 said:

I agreed with you - it isn't possible to replicate the match vs Barca (in my opinion) as the AI won't play as Barca did. You're right in that people asking advice would get the feedback you posted.

 

Have I taken you out of context somehow?

What I wanted to say was that their aggressive system didn't work simply because of the way Barça set up. It has worked against many different systems, and if you try to paint it as something that only happened due to poor choices by Barcelona it kinda discredits Flick's overall work. 

Also what do you mean by not being possible to replicate the match vs Barca? Cause in terms of results, it certainly is possible:

 

 

Of course, those don't happen all the time, much like Bayern won't be demolishing teams by 6+ goals every time, but it can happen for sure.

 

[Enzo_Francescoli]

5 hours ago, nick1408 said:

he above video is what I worked on for the Team Instructions:

This is purely a starting point specifically vs the Barca side that was rolled out.

I would argue that it was a 4231 with DM's, not CM's. Thiago a half-back with more risk-taking. Goretzka a Volante. Alaba BPD(st). And it was the highest defensive line I've ever seen.

Alas, you can't possibly recreate the fluidity of the front four, but all support duties and swapping positions (AML-AMR and AM-ST) might be a good starting point. Even more to my disappointment, Bayern's intricate pressing patterns are way too much for the game.

This is actually a good project, though, getting the closest of Bayern's style in FM20. I've never liked them, but what they did Friday was mighty impressive.

[nick1408]

50 minutes ago, dekzeh said:

Also what do you mean by not being possible to replicate the match vs Barca? Cause in terms of results, it certainly is possible:

 

 

Of course, those don't happen all the time, much like Bayern won't be demolishing teams by 6+ goals every time, but it can happen for sure.

 

The results can be replicated, sure but as @Enzo_Francescoli noted the movement I don’t think is. Similar to how Sheffield United’s overlapping centrebacks are nigh on impossible to replicate properly I don’t think the level of movement Flick gets with Bayern is able to be replicated consistently. As an example, to emulate I think you’d have to give up the movement of Alaba to the left to cover Davies forward runs.

 

As as I said in my original post here I am really only going off two videos on Bayern’s tactic. There is every chance I have a lot wrong in it. 

[thizaum]

Guys,

 

I truly appreciate all the nice comments. However I wanted to stress the fact that my original post wasn't about "copying" Bayern, it was about using it as an inspiration. That is because, well, I'm not managing Bayern and I'm in 2027. =/

In my 4-2-3-1, my right full back is on attack because he's my Davies. He's the most gifted on attack so I've mirrored the duties. And although Muller is not an ideal AP, my player there is.

And finally, I did watch Tifo's video when it was released (love the channel, btw), but the formation explained there is different from the Barça's match. I've tried to take that one as more of a reference.

Anyways, my point was more about the TI's and mentality, and how those interact with the roles and duties for this. I'm sure using an AP instead of an AM in this case will be a bit less relevant in the grand scheme of things.

As said, I'd never played a high tempo formation.

[carloshcorbalan]

nick1408

Hola Nick....

Podrias mostrar instrucciones individuales para probar táctica segun tu vision del Bayern..????

[MrChampionsLeague]

You cant just set up some random 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 and then call it a Flick replication. Also the biggest strengths of this Bayern team are pressing patterns that you can't even remotely replicate in FM and just that Fllick seems to be able to handle all the egos and characters in the dressing room.

[Razor940]

Em 15/08/2020 em 21:41, Hilly1979 disse:

The more I play this game I believe it is all about the maths though..... take a perfect well balanced tactic truish to real life and it can fail..... take a totally unbalanced tactic contradictory to real life tactics and people find success.

I play to the former, think that’s where I’m going wrong...

It's the maths in terms of attributes, that's where 50% of the people get it wrong. And you could put together a very balanced tactic and still be unbalanced because players are the ones that play and if they don't fit/don't have the skills to balance it's case closed. 

The other 50% is people not understanding real life football nor understanding the tactic creator in FM. You could create unbalanced tactics in your eyes, but under the hood being balanced by some TIs, PPMs, players attributes, or even mentality. Plus, FM or real life football is not only about balancing tactics, you need to take risks too sometimes, a lot of times is about risk vs reward and a lot of players don't understand that.