Need a few ideas on how to use these players effectively

[Armistice]

Hey guys what's up, having followed my own advice I gave to someone here who made a rant topic, I started a Valencia save and things are going alright so far, we're top of the league on joint with Atletico Madrid and one point ahead of Barcelona and we're also top of the Champions League group on joint with Juventus and three points clear of Porto with two games left to play. I started the save using the Vertical Tiki-Taka preset and here and there changed to the Gegenpress preset when I felt I wanted to press the living out the opponents (this worked when we faced Real Madrid, winning 4-1 after going 0-1 down).

But I noticed we relied a lot on individuals taking long shots and hitting the back of the net and I'm not an advocate of these goals. I mean I do enjoy a long shot goal but my preference is to try and stretch the opponent more and score from inside the box. I do enjoy high pressing coupled with short, crisp passing style; one-twos, defence splitting passes, cutbacks etc. I also prefer 4-3-3 or 4-1-4-1 how it is named in the game right now and the 4-2-3-1 if I feel I need more bodies upfront to press.

 

Having said that, I am going to post the profiles of the players I am going to build the tactic around. We got a few, starting with this guy, Jose Gaya. He's one of my favorite FM players for a couple of years and now I've got the chance to have him at my disposal.

 

Great at going forward as you can see, he also has a handy PPM, Gets Forward Whenever Possible (running with the ball is not much what I like though, dribbling means often losing the ball) which afaik means he'll go forward almost as much as a wingback on attack. Also keep in mind that for a possession style of football, I don't think the locked in PIs of the WB-A are going hand in hand. So probably a WB-S would be an interesting choice, but I've only experimented with WB-A so far.

 

Next we have the other fullback, Stefan Lainer. I bought him from Salzburg.

 

He's not a bad player although he lacks in crossing and technique. Like Gaya, he's going forward and dribbling a lot but he's not as good as Gaya. Maybe another WB-S or a FB-S?

 

 

My type of CB. Strong in the air, decent on the ball, not the fastest player, but he's got decent mentals. His first touch needs a bit of work and his PPM is interesting. I saw him take the ball and drive forward with it which sometimes is a bit worrying when facing good sides because if he loses the ball he leaves the CB partner vulnerable.

 

Complete midfielder is this guy imo. Great on the ball, great off the ball, fast, can tackle, has stamina, strength, he will run all day long. Definitely one of the most important piece of the tactic. Idk about his PPM though, what does it do exactly?

 

Dani is a good playmaker, has vision, passing, first touch, composure, but decent decisions, off the ball and dribbling. He's slow aswell so I think he might fit better if he stays deeper and has more space and doesn't do much of running or dribbling.

 

Soler can do the trick when it comes to attacking, his attributes are good and he has room to improve more if he fulfils his potential. Atm he's injured so I'm looking forward to have him back.

 

Rodrigo can play upfront but I decided to play Gameiro upfront and him on the right flank as an IF-A. He has the annoying PPM Runs with the ball which is a bit frustrating as I said because he ends up dribbling into the bunch of the opposition players so therefore loses the possession. He also moves into channels and cuts inside from the right wing so I think he can also be a winger? I mean his PPMs will often override the PIs coming from the role so having him act like a hybrid between an IF and a winger is not a bad choice, eh?

 

 

Looking at the other wide player, Guedes is also fast as a cheetah but his mentals are worse. Poor team work, poor concentration, composure and decisions, not the greatest first touch, passing, finishing and vision. I like his PPMs though, offers me a bit of flexibility, gets into opposition area means I can play him as a support and he'll still go into the box, comes deep to get the ball is also good if I decide to play him on attack.

 

Now, putting this altogether in roles and duties is a bit more trickier. Keep in mind that I also want my team to hold the ball, to pass it short and press aggressively when the possession is lost. I do want to score predominantly from the box and not outside of it. So what do I do? I'm looking for some ideas on how to use these players strengths to get the maximum out of them. Right now I am a bit confused as what roles to give everyone because there's a lot of jobs these players can do for example Kongdobia, he's not bad at going forward, but not bad at being more conservative either. I don't want to waste him nor the other players.

 

 

Btw I am not looking for "hey create a tactic for me pls" just looking for some advice or outside the box thinking on how to use these players because I'm a bit stuck into a pattern of thinking and it's not necessarily good.

[Armistice]

Sorry for double posting but editing the previous post is really painful, this site works so slow for me. Please whoever made it work so slow please revert it back.

So I have a few ideas. Gaya can work as a WB-S since he has that PPM going forward so he can contribute in the final third. He can also be a CWB-S but I don't know how that role works so I prefer to use what's somewhat known to me. Ahead of him, Guedes can also be a supporting duty because of his PPM gets in the opposition area. Not sure if Inside Forward role is a good idea because he's not great at taking risky passes as the role comes up with the locked PI and I don't want too much dribbling either, but I don't see him a playmaker either because of his poor mentals that needed for this role. On the other side, I can put Rodrigo as a winger on attack and he will still cut inside due to his PPM and Move into Channels means he's not always going to act like a winger.  On MCR we can have a DLP to create for the winger on attack? Or a Mezalla works better? I don't want one side to be more attacking than the other, I have a thing for balance. More like an obsession tbf. If I use a DLP (Parejo) what am I gonna do with Kongdobia? Box to Box on MCL? Mezalla? If he's a Mezalla, then the IF ahead of him (Guedes) will probably run in the same space, innit? What to do with the striker upfront? Do I want him to drop deep? I have two wide players who will likely need someone to create space for them, but still I am not sure what to do here.

[Rashidi]

Just looking at the first 4 players caused me to drool. :-)

Your fullbacks are very good, they will give you plenty of options. In fact their attribute spread is very good. I like the combination of pace and intelligence, which allows you to make more interesting systems. If I were you I would think of an ideal tactic I want to start with and then go from there. I can immediately see several options, if I were you I would begin by asking how I could leverage off their intelligence.

[ryandormer]

A couple ideas for at least one section of the tactic--the left hand side.

 

I would consider a 4-1-2-3 (4-1-4-1 DM wide), as you seem to have enough good and versatile players to play a midfield three.

 

On the left, I would look at Gaya as a wingback attack. He seems very attack minded and the PPMs will compliment that approach.

 

With an attacking wingback, I always prefer to then use deeper midfielders and deeper wingers/inside forwards on that side. As such, Guedes would be IF(s)--he cuts in from the left by default so he seems ideal for this role. He will get in to the middle areas of the pitch, hopefully dragging defenders around, while Gaya causes havoc down the flank.

 

I would play Kondogbia as a DLF(s) in the MCL slot. He won't get forward as much as you might like, so the midfielder on the right should probably be given a more adventurous role. But with 'dictates' tempo' as a PPM and his attributes, he is a perfect player to have on the ball during the transition phase. Plus, he will link up really nicely with Gaya and Guedes. With Gaya pushing ahead of the midfield, and Guedes already ahead of the midfield by default, it would be handy to have a deeper player on the same side who can provide a deeper passing option to retain and to play the ball. I always try to have a left footed player in the left midfield slot, too. 

 

That's how I would start to build the tactic. Those three are great players, and I think that they would naturally link up so well with this set up that you could viably build the rest of the tactic around it.

 

In my Arsenal side, I now have an almost identical but mirrored set up--Bellerin WB(a), Oliver DLP(s) and Havertz IF(s). So I may be biased!

 

I hope that helps.

[Rashidi]

Just now, Armistice said:

Sorry for double posting but editing the previous post is really painful, this site works so slow for me. Please whoever made it work so slow please revert it back

Its pretty fast for me :-(

[Armistice]

3 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Its pretty fast for me :-(

It's strange because if I log out, it works fast as it used to.

[sporadicsmiles]

Oof, some nice players there. Some ideas I had from looking at them.

Your Right back has good passing, tackling, vision, pace. He could easily play in midfield. I'd be thinking what an IWB could do for me, and how I could design my team around that. Couple it with Gaya as the marauding left wingback, and you have the start of a setup. As Rashidi says, I would be building from those two players, and seeing where it goes.

Parejo also would be my "glue" for the formation. The guy who sticks everyone together, gets the ball between different players doing different things. Always open for a pass. He would be very good at that.

[Armistice]

3 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Oof, some nice players there. Some ideas I had from looking at them.

Your Right back has good passing, tackling, vision, pace. He could easily play in midfield. I'd be thinking what an IWB could do for me, and how I could design my team around that. Couple it with Gaya as the marauding left wingback, and you have the start of a setup. As Rashidi says, I would be building from those two players, and seeing where it goes.

Parejo also would be my "glue" for the formation. The guy who sticks everyone together, gets the ball between different players doing different things. Always open for a pass. He would be very good at that.

Some interesting ideas. But I have to ask, do I need a IWB? Because I already have two wide players who are likely to cut inside, three CMs doing all sorts of things and probably a striker who will drop to create space for the wide players. I am thinking there will be a lot of players using the same space and that’s easy to defend. That unless I’m going to choose a different role (and duty) for the striker and utilize that IF-winger ‘hybrid’ in Rodrigo who will stay wide to stretch the defence, but that means space has to be created by someone else for the trio upfront, right?

[NabsKebabs]

29 minutes ago, Armistice said:

Some interesting ideas. But I have to ask, do I need a IWB? Because I already have two wide players who are likely to cut inside, three CMs doing all sorts of things and probably a striker who will drop to create space for the wide players. I am thinking there will be a lot of players using the same space and that’s easy to defend. That unless I’m going to choose a different role (and duty) for the striker and utilize that IF-winger ‘hybrid’ in Rodrigo who will stay wide to stretch the defence, but that means space has to be created by someone else for the trio upfront, right?

The right fulback as an inverted wingback could be awesome. I'd use Rodrigo as a winger on support and when he cuts inside you will actually get width from the fullback due to his traits. In the final third what will happen is that the IWB will actually go wide and be a crossing threat. @Rashidi's liquid 433 tactic on his YT channel utilizes this. He plays with two wingers and support who all have cuts inside from both wings and he plays with 2 IWB's behind them who in the final third look to overlap. It looks really cool. 

[Experienced Defender]

If I understood well, your idea is to keep possession and look to create good chances inside the box, rather than rushing play. The good thing is - you have players that suit that style, especially in the midfield (at least those from the screenshots). Formation-wise, I would rather opt for a 4141dm wide than a 4231, because the former offers more options because it's a well-balanced system. 

You asked what the trait "Dictates tempo" mean/does. It does what it says - the player will look to either slow play down or speed it up a bit, as he sees fit. The trait is generally welcome for playmakers, especially deeper ones. And you have two players with this trait, but it does not mean you need to play both as PMs at the same time. In a 4141dm wide, my personal preference would be Parejo as a DLP support and Condogbia as either a BBM or mezzala (provided you play them in central midfield).

I agree with you that for the style of play you want to implement, Gaya would do better as a WB on support than on attack. Here you may consider the "sit narrower" PI for him, to try to prevent him from running out wide and crossing too much (though he has a trait that encourages such behavior).

As for Lainer, there are 3 roles I would consider for him - FB on support, WB on defend or IWB on defend. I fear he's not good enough to play in a more attack-minded role, but can provide support from deeper areas when you need to recycle the ball. Here also you may tell him to sit narrower, so that he would look to keep it simple and pass the ball to more technical and creative midfielders (though he also has traits that may be problematic).

4 hours ago, Armistice said:

Rodrigo can play upfront but I decided to play Gameiro upfront and him on the right flank as an IF-A. He has the annoying PPM Runs with the ball which is a bit frustrating as I said because he ends up dribbling into the bunch of the opposition players so therefore loses the possession. He also moves into channels and cuts inside from the right wing so I think he can also be a winger? I mean his PPMs will often override the PIs coming from the role so having him act like a hybrid between an IF and a winger is not a bad choice, eh?

I think it's a good choice and a good example of your ability to think outside the box 

 

4 hours ago, Armistice said:

Looking at the other wide player, Guedes is also fast as a cheetah but his mentals are worse. Poor team work, poor concentration, composure and decisions, not the greatest first touch, passing, finishing and vision. I like his PPMs though, offers me a bit of flexibility, gets into opposition area means I can play him as a support and he'll still go into the box, comes deep to get the ball is also good if I decide to play him on attack

Looking at Guedes' profile, if you play him in AML as your first choice, an IF on support would be the most logical role IMO.

Finally, if you decide to use a 4141dm wide, the question remains whom you would play in the DM spot and in what role, and what role to give to Gameiro as your lone striker in order to make him fit in with the rest of the system. You'll basically need a good number of support duties overall to facilitate the possession style you want to play, with a couple of attack ones to prevent your tactic from being to sterile in the final third.

However, if you opt for a 4231, it's gonna be a bit more tricky.

[Rashidi]

9 minutes ago, NabsKebabs said:

The right fulback as an inverted wingback could be awesome. I'd use Rodrigo as a winger on support and when he cuts inside you will actually get width from the fullback due to his traits. In the final third what will happen is that the IWB will actually go wide and be a crossing threat. @Rashidi's liquid 433 tactic on his YT channel utilizes this. He plays with two wingers and support who all have cuts inside from both wings and he plays with 2 IWB's behind them who in the final third look to overlap. It looks really cool. 

Yeah he has a lot of possibilities with this system so much so that if I were the manager I would be playing an IWB(S) IWB(A) pair. It can be very deadly and i think his boys can pull it off. His left back is amazing and at 27m that's a steal. I have paid a lot more for a lot less. @Armistice What size db were you playing out of curiosity and how were all your leagues on full. Sometimes i feel like i make it harder for myself by playing with so few leagues loaded.

I would definitely stay away from WB, its too one dimensional for really good players. CWB or IWB is a better choice. You get to leverage off their attributes and it shows. WB can feel like battering rams with blinders on.

[NabsKebabs]

I would go IWB(A) for Gaya as Rashidi suggests, this will reduce him always dribbling wide and crossing but still allow him to do so when camped in the final third. The other fullback can be IWB(d) or (s). I'd also try it with both the wide men as wingers on support with Guedes on the left and Rodrigo on the right. Since they're playing as wingers they will hold width in the buildup and when they do cut inside your IWB's can provide the width. 

Kondogbia has Mez or BTB written all over him. I'd probably go with an uber aggressive left flank tbh and use him as a Mezzala on attack at LCM to create a crazy overload. Guedes dropping deep due to his PPM will be handy here. Your left sided central defender will have to be good though cos there will be a gap on that flank. If it's too aggressive, you could just use Gaya on support instead of attack. I'd also use Parejo as a DLP at DM because he's pretty slow so you don't really want him at CM. Rather let his great mentals and technicals flourish at DM. 

[ryandormer]

23 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

I would definitely stay away from WB, its too one dimensional for really good players. CWB or IWB is a better choice. You get to leverage off their attributes and it shows. WB can feel like battering rams with blinders on.

What difference do you see when playing CWB over regular WB? I have tried a few times but I have never managed to see much of a difference. Then again, I've never really given it a great chance over a period of time. I last tried with Bellerin and Kolasinac (one support, one attack) but I couldn't see enough difference from the regular WB.

 

Thanks

[Rashidi]

CWB roam from position sometimes then end up driving narrow and inside. As opposed to wingbacks who are more driven down the flanks

[sporadicsmiles]

2 hours ago, Armistice said:

But I have to ask, do I need a IWB?

Need? You do not really ever need anything. Could you build something around one? Sure. I mean, ultimately he could also support the midfield from a deeper wide position. As you were looking for some ideas, I thought I would give you something slightly atypical. 

[Armistice]

Okay guys I am intrigued by the IWB role now but I am not entirely sure how it works, in possession is he getting inside and act like a central midfielder? Acording to his PIs and role description it looks like it. Is he providing width? Do we need someone else to provide width when using an IWB? Do I need to pick roles & duties that roam or get forward a lot in the CMs ahead of them?

 

Thanks!

Btw I am looking to learn how the game works, again. I know some tricks here and there but I NEED to visualize and know exactly how roles play out when creating a tactic.

[Rashidi]

I did the role guide and explained how it moved and what you need to make it operate with screenshots even :-)

[Armistice]

On 30/04/2019 at 21:15, Rashidi said:

I did the role guide and explained how it moved and what you need to make it operate with screenshots even :-)

Thanks man, that’s good stuff. So do you necessarily need Overlap TI to make the IWB go wide or does it happen naturally and you used the Overlap TI to slightly increase the player's individual mentality?

Also I heard Overlap has been reworked in FM19, does it still increase the fullbacks' individual mentality whilst decreasing the wide midfielders' individual mentality?

[Rashidi]

Overlap is still the same it wasn't reworked.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

Overlap is still the same it wasn't reworked.

The key difference (improvement IMO) is that now in FM19 you can use both overlaps and underlaps on one flank only, whereas in FM18 you had to employ them on both. Plus, you can now have both an overlap and an underlap at the same time, which was not possible before (you had to pick either one or the other). 

[Rashidi]

I mean thats a few feature rather than a change

[Armistice]

Ok guys this is the tactic.

 

We're top of the league and in the final of the Spanish Cup. In the last few games we've got good possession, but dear lord the goals are still awful. We've scored a load in the last few games, won away at Atletico 4-0, then home against Betis and Barcelona 5-1 but the goals are the same. Corners, crosses, long shots and luckily for me Parejo is scoring some free kicks hence why he's on 11 goals (top goalscorer). I don't understand why we score like that in every game. Is this tactic poor?

[herne79]

21 hours ago, Armistice said:

Is this tactic poor?

If it were poor, you wouldn't be top of the league or beating Barca and Atletico by 4 clear goals .

You seem to have a bit of a bee in your bonnet atm about a lack of variety in goals scored (https://community.sigames.com/topic/474383-the-goals-scored-are-so-repetitive/).  But you're yet to open a Bug report and upload the many pkms concerning AI vs AI matches that you've been requested to.

Now concerning your system above I'm confused.  You talk about lack of variety and then mention 4 different types of goal.  Pretty much the only one missing is through balls.  Because you aren't giving specific examples, it leaves me thinking "what lack of variety"?  You also mention Parejo is your top goalscorer, but as your 2 strikers have 17 between them I guess you've been rotating/substituting them a fair bit. 

What we need to see from you is specific examples of consistently similar goals from lots of different matches.  You could also show a screenshot from Tactics > Analysis > Assists (competitive matches only, both type of assist and position of assist) as further examples.

Your system is clearly successful so the last thing I or anyone else should be doing is saying change x,y,z without you showing us precisely what your issue is.

[Armistice]

4 hours ago, herne79 said:

If it were poor, you wouldn't be top of the league or beating Barca and Atletico by 4 clear goals .

You seem to have a bit of a bee in your bonnet atm about a lack of variety in goals scored (https://community.sigames.com/topic/474383-the-goals-scored-are-so-repetitive/).  But you're yet to open a Bug report and upload the many pkms concerning AI vs AI matches that you've been requested to.

Now concerning your system above I'm confused.  You talk about lack of variety and then mention 4 different types of goal.  Pretty much the only one missing is through balls.  Because you aren't giving specific examples, it leaves me thinking "what lack of variety"?  You also mention Parejo is your top goalscorer, but as your 2 strikers have 17 between them I guess you've been rotating/substituting them a fair bit. 

What we need to see from you is specific examples of consistently similar goals from lots of different matches.  You could also show a screenshot from Tactics > Analysis > Assists (competitive matches only, both type of assist and position of assist) as further examples.

Your system is clearly successful so the last thing I or anyone else should be doing is saying change x,y,z without you showing us precisely what your issue is.

Hey herne, thanks for the reply.

 

Ok so, I hope I will include in this post as much as I can think of, from what I want to achieve in this save to why I think the four different ways of scoring goals are not quite acceptable. As I said in the previous posts, I want to have possession. For me possession is the core of my playing style. If we have the ball we limit the opposition from scoring, right? But more important we have a chance of creating goal scoring opportunities. You can argue you can create goal scoring chances out of possession by inviting pressure and then counter-attacking but this is not what I am trying to achieve right now - first of all because the AI is starting to get defensive against me and they're not throwing numbers forward - secondly because I am not completely familiar of the elements needed for counter-attacking football so I prefer to stick to a style that at least I like and know a bit more - and thirdly because I can't take the stress of soaking pressure and hitting on the break.

So - when having possession I am looking specifically to create from open play. Crosses - are they from open play? Yes, so we can give this a tick as passing our little test. Long shots - are they from open play? Usually yes, but I really don't like to score from long shots. It's written so often on these forums that long shots is a symptom of a poor tactic.  Corners - are they from open play? No, so this doesn't get the tick. Free kicks - are they from open play? No. I do enjoy a goal from corner or a free kick especially when we really need one but to me these are bonus goals, just something nice to have but not too reliant on. So out of those four different type of goals, only one fully fits the criteria. And ironically what you said it's missing - through balls - is what I desire the most. I understand it's not always easy to pass through packed defences and sometimes we do need a long shot or a corner to break the deadlock but I am not seeing anything that suggests this tactic works the way I want it to work.

 

This is the goal spread in the team. Santi Mina and Gameiro are the main strikers. Ruben Sobrino is a backup option. I started the season with Gameiro, used Mina in cup games then Gameiro picked a 2 months injury so Mina played instead of him. From this you can picture you can see that my two wide midfielders have scored only 4 goals each in 20+ games. This is not a proud stat right here.

 

 

Good, now let's move onto the analysis. Here is the picture of Assists.

 

Here's a pic of how we scored our goals.

 

I will make a post separately for analysis.

 

Getafe v Valencia.pkm

[Armistice]

Valencia v Real Valladolid FT 0-0

 

Initially I decided to post pictures of the moves that eventually were finished by long shots, but it's a lot of work to do and I don't have much time to do it. So instead I'm going to post videos.

 

Long shot #1 - Number 19 in our team.

 

Long shot #2 - Number 19 again

 

Long shot #3 (saved) - Number 8

 

Long shot #4 (saved) - Number 7

 

Long shot #5 - Number 7

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CXevWsBURw

 

So you know, these patterns are very similar every game.

 

Now a game that we won 5-1.

 

 

First goal it's Parejo from direct free kick.

Second goal it's Mina from corner.

Third goal is a nice. Except that the video is off? idk what happened here lol

 

 

Fourth goal is a long shot.

 

Fifth goal comes from a cross.

 

 

The win against Barcelona, 5-1.

First goal is Rodrigo who gets the ball after a throw in near the halfline, cuts inside and scores from outside the box.

Second goal comes from a cross. Torres scores there.

Third and fourth goal come from a corners. Fifth goal comes after this free kick is passed short to Torres.

Also got to say that we've played a different setup here, a 4-2-3-1 that was specifically used to press Barcelona from building from the back. Still, goals come in a similar pattern.

And the win in Madrid, 0-4 against Atletico.

First goal is a corner, Mina scores. Then Dani Parejo scores a penalty. Third goal was indeed very nice and I want to share it with you guys.

Ok this still comes after a cross but I really liked how we played this out. Btw I played a Control Possession preset in this match. You might wonder what am I doing that I keep switching tactics around but I changed because I felt I needed to play a different way against the better sides like Barcelona and Atletico.

 

Fourth goal comes after a throw in. Guedes cuts inside and scores from inside the box.

[herne79]

@Armistice  Good job on the specifics.

It seems to me that what you're really after is reducing the number of goals from crosses and increasing the number of goals from through balls?

That being the case, consider what you are currently telling your players to do through your role and PI selections.  Who have you told to provide crosses and who have you told to make through balls? And then, who is able to get on the end of crosses vs through balls?

Just in terms of through balls for a moment:

1) Who is going to attempt through balls?  A Deep Lying Playmaker?  A Mezzala running wide towards your Winger?  The Winger?  Pretty much the only person who may attempt to play through balls is your Inside Forward, which brings me onto:

2) Who can get on the end of through balls?  Well if the IF is essentially the only player who may attempt to make through balls, that leaves just your striker to aim them at.  Nobody else is making the runs into the box and as he is a support duty they may be fairly late runs.  And what happens if he's marked?

Now before you start tinkering you have to make a decision.  If you do tinker you will be tinkering with a winning system.  That's a risk in itself and you need to be prepared for that.

So, some things to consider:

1) Change Parejo to an Advanced Playmaker (support).  This may help him influence things higher up the pitch with through balls and passing options while still having an eye on his defensive duties.

2) Change your Mez to a CM(attack).  Why have a player looking to run into space out wide when you have a Winger there already?  Get him attacking the box and offering more passing options and penetrating runs from deep.  You have a striker dropping deep to bring the defenders with him, so someone should be attacking that space.  A Raumdeuter might also do that.

3) Gaya could become an IWB to use the midfield space vacated by changing the DLP to an AP.  Of course there is nothing wrong with leaving him as a wingback to patrol the flanks, it's just another option to think about.

4) Give your striker an attack duty to help his penetrating runs, although you'd need to consider how he ties in with your central midfield especially.  For example perhaps an AP attack (or a CM-a with increased risky passes) may be a better option in combination with an attack duty striker in order to keep up with the striker's more aggressive runs.

I'm not saying you should do some or all of those things.  These are just a few things off the top of my head which may help change the profile of your attacking play to increase variety and movement without completely destroying a winning tactic.  I haven't even touched on tactical settings.  Really it's just trying to help you see things in a different way and give you some fresh ideas.  Always consider what you are trying to achieve and then consider the combinations you have employed to see if they'll actually do what you want.

[Armistice]

Fair enough @herne79 I know you are trying to help me and I appreciate it, you got very good points there and you gave me food for thought. I’ve also tweeted Cleon this morning and he asked me along those lines, who makes the through balls and who’s at the end of the through balls. I’ve got a question though - right now I realize I’ve been completely wrong about some roles and what they’re doing on the pitch - do I have to put an advanced playmaker/treq/EG there to make those through balls or can a basic role like CM-A with More Risky Passes PI able to do that?

Or another example, the F9, drops deep, has Risky Passes PI locked in like a playmaker but is not a ball magnet like a playmaker.

[herne79]

1 hour ago, Armistice said:

do I have to put an advanced playmaker/treq/EG there to make those through balls or can a basic role like CM-A with More Risky Passes PI able to do that?

A CM-A can do it, it just won't act like a "ball magnet".  An F9 also.  Just pay attention to the other player roles as well .

[Armistice]

6 hours ago, herne79 said:

A CM-A can do it, it just won't act like a "ball magnet".  An F9 also.  Just pay attention to the other player roles as well .

Alright cheers. But I feel confused again. You asked me who makes the through balls. Well I have two roles that have More Risky passes hardcoded. The IF and CF. Can’t they create chances like a playmaker? Also the DLP has More Risky Passes hardcoded in, why is he not a decent option?

Maybe there are not enough players looking to make most of those risky passes, like you said none of my CMs are looking to punch forward and I used a winger on attack on the left that will still look to do the job of a winger and cross despite having PPMs that encourage him to act like an IF. So maybe the most logical move would be to change one of my CMs into an attack duty and change the winger into an IF?

[herne79]

45 minutes ago, Armistice said:

I have two roles that have More Risky passes hardcoded. The IF and CF. Can’t they create chances like a playmaker?

Create chances for who?  They can create chances sure, but they need someone to aim at:

11 hours ago, herne79 said:

2) Who can get on the end of through balls?  Well if the IF is essentially the only player who may attempt to make through balls, that leaves just your striker to aim them at.  Nobody else is making the runs into the box and as he is a support duty they may be fairly late runs.  And what happens if he's marked?

IF and CF may well have risky passes selected, but they're trying to pass it to each other and they're both on a support duty so not attacking the box early.  The CF may be able to play in the Winger but you've already seen how that works out.

47 minutes ago, Armistice said:

Also the DLP has More Risky Passes hardcoded in, why is he not a decent option?

Because he's a Deep Lying Playmaker.  How often is he going to get into advanced positions to make those incisive passes for a runner/striker to latch onto in and around the box?  But again, you've already seen how that works out.

55 minutes ago, Armistice said:

I used a winger on attack on the left that will still look to do the job of a winger and cross despite having PPMs that encourage him to act like an IF. So maybe the most logical move would be to change one of my CMs into an attack duty and change the winger into an IF?

Your IF is on the left, Winger on the right? 

And why do you want 2 IFs all of a sudden?  Don't overcomplicate things - a CM attack could be a great idea to run into that space between the striker and Winger, what's the logic in having an IF there as well?  Not saying it can't work, but how about trying one thing at a time, seeing how it works and move on once you're happy.

Also try to think through how Traits and Roles can combine or increase variety of movement.  For example, having an out and out Winger can be great but as an option how does the Winger role combined with a player who has the Trait to cut inside sound to you?  Traits don't ignore or override PIs, so in this instance the player may look to cut inside on occasion, he just won't do it as often as a regular Inside Forward might but a bit more often than a Winger without the Trait would.

[Chief232]

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

And why do you want 2 IFs all of a sudden?  Don't overcomplicate things - a CM attack could be a great idea to run into that space between the striker and Winger, what's the logic in having an IF there as well?  Not saying it can't work, but how about trying one thing at a time, seeing how it works and move on once you're happy.

Sorry to chime in here, just wanted to ask. Do you mean a CM attack on the same side as the winger on attack? Always been too scared to try that one out

[Armistice]

11 hours ago, herne79 said:

And why do you want 2 IFs all of a sudden?  Don't overcomplicate things - a CM attack could be a great idea to run into that space between the striker and Winger, what's the logic in having an IF there as well?  Not saying it can't work, but how about trying one thing at a time, seeing how it works and move on once you're happy.

Also try to think through how Traits and Roles can combine or increase variety of movement.  For example, having an out and out Winger can be great but as an option how does the Winger role combined with a player who has the Trait to cut inside sound to you?  Traits don't ignore or override PIs, so in this instance the player may look to cut inside on occasion, he just won't do it as often as a regular Inside Forward might but a bit more often than a Winger without the Trait would.

Well I thought the player on the right should be like an auxiliary striker, should score goals and be at the end of the passes and get in the space that the CF creates. I am not sure if a winger role is able to do that properly, in spite of the PPMs that the player currently has. That's one idea. Sure, we can also work out a winger on attack and a CM that attacks the space on the same side, the inverted wingback gets in the space left by the CM, but we'll have lots of support duties on the other side, on the left. So that will probably mean we'll build up a lot of our attacks on the left maybe? And if it gets on the right, it will become more aggressive since we have two attack duties looking to make early runs. So if the CM-A gets the ball and passes it to the winger, who is he crossing to? The CF should be deep, the IF on the other flank is also deep, the CM is not fast enough to get in the box. Sure, the PPMs will make the player decide to cut inside at times but then what happens? Will he pass it back to the CM? To the CF? Will he run into the wall of players and lose the ball?

 

Hmm this is so complicated. 

[herne79]

36 minutes ago, Armistice said:

Hmm this is so complicated. 

Because you're over thinking it .

[Armistice]

10 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Because you're over thinking it .

Yeah I have an habit of doing that  But don't you agree that I should ask and answer some of those questions?

[herne79]

1 minute ago, Armistice said:

Yeah I have an habit of doing that  But don't you agree that I should ask and answer some of those questions?

At some point you have to stop theorising and try things out .  And if you're worried about messing up your save, hit Save As, create a copy of your game and tinker to your hearts content.

[Armistice]

This game should be called Long Shots Manager, incredibly frustrating. 

Tried every piece of advice given by you guys, we score goals exactly the same way.

[herne79]

3 hours ago, Armistice said:

This game should be called Long Shots Manager, incredibly frustrating. 

Tried every piece of advice given by you guys, we score goals exactly the same way.

Stay calm .

When you say you've tried every piece of advice, how exactly?  Implemented one or two changes at a time, played a few matches to see how they pan put, change one or two other things, play a few matches, rinse and repeat?  Implement lots of changes and start immediately tinkering when you go a goal down?  Somewhere in between?  remember we don't know what you're doing or how you do things so the more descriptive you can be the better.

And always bear in mind this: 

On 06/05/2019 at 12:17, herne79 said:

If you do tinker you will be tinkering with a winning system.  That's a risk in itself and you need to be prepared for that.

 

[Armistice]

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

Stay calm .

When you say you've tried every piece of advice, how exactly?  Implemented one or two changes at a time, played a few matches to see how they pan put, change one or two other things, play a few matches, rinse and repeat?  Implement lots of changes and start immediately tinkering when you go a goal down?  Somewhere in between?  remember we don't know what you're doing or how you do things so the more descriptive you can be the better.

And always bear in mind this: 

 

Yes herne, I changed the Mezalla to CM-A and tried Parejo as AP. Against Bilbao at home it was a struggle to create any quality chances, they used a defensive 4-1-4-1 despite being 5th in the league (!!!) and only a few points off the top 3. Then we played against Celta and didn’t see much change in the quality of chances. Right now I’m thinking about testing different tweaks of the system in the same game and watch it for 10-15 full minutes so see if anything is changing. In other words, play the next match & watch the first 10-15 minutes or more, take notes, quit, come back, try a different tweak to the tactic, watch, come to a conclusion. But I am not sure if that will help me. Maybe only to understand the roles better.

[Armistice]

As I expected, once those long shots and free kicks stopped hitting the back of the net, the goals dried up.

Situations like this don't help. Guedes has space to pass it to #19 but decides to take a long shot instead. There are countless times when I just know what a player is going to do, it seems that no one is trying different than long shots.