Playing out of defense - distribution

[craiigman]

When you use the TI Play out of defense, on a goal kick the two centre backs go to the outside of the 18 yard box, the DM/CM’s will drop into the gap, the full backs push wide and high. Looks great every time (unless someone makes a mistake).

My issue however is when you don’t want to distribute to the center backs, but the full backs, it doesn’t work. I still want to build from the back, but if I set to distribute to full backs with the option set, it still goes to the centre backs as they are still on the edge of the 18.

I’ve posted to tactics forum first to see if there is a way to do this? I don’t think it’s a bug, but also think if I set both play out from back and distribute to full backs, the center backs should re-position themselves, not completely central, but to allow space to play to full backs.

[HUNT3R]

1 hour ago, craiigman said:

When you use the TI Play out of defense, on a goal kick the two centre backs go to the outside of the 18 yard box, the DM/CM’s will drop into the gap, the full backs push wide and high. Looks great every time (unless someone makes a mistake).

My issue however is when you don’t want to distribute to the center backs, but the full backs, it doesn’t work. I still want to build from the back, but if I set to distribute to full backs with the option set, it still goes to the centre backs as they are still on the edge of the 18.

I’ve posted to tactics forum first to see if there is a way to do this? I don’t think it’s a bug, but also think if I set both play out from back and distribute to full backs, the center backs should re-position themselves, not completely central, but to allow space to play to full backs.

Are you removing Play Out Of Defence when selecting the fullbacks? Because you need to remove it. It is what's causing the DCs to split.

[craiigman]

38 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Are you removing Play Out Of Defence when selecting the fullbacks? Because you need to remove it. It is what's causing the DCs to split.

No I’m still using play out of defense, but that’s what I’m saying here. If using that option does that, then play to full backs should be blanked out as conflicting, or it should see the center backs move into a more central position.

If I turn off play out from defense then might end up with long balls that I don’t want. Unless the play out of defense option only splits the center backs on goal kicks and doesn’t effect passing, however I do believe that option did lower passing on FM18 so assume the same here.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, craiigman said:

No I’m still using play out of defense, but that’s what I’m saying here. If using that option does that, then play to full backs should be blanked out as conflicting, or it should see the center backs move into a more central position.

If I turn off play out from defense then might end up with long balls that I don’t want. Unless the play out of defense option only splits the center backs on goal kicks and doesn’t effect passing, however I do believe that option did lower passing on FM18 so assume the same here.

That's what the setting does - split the defence so you can play out of defence.

See comment from SI about it not affecting passing: 

 

[craiigman]

16 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

That's what the setting does - split the defence so you can play out of defence.

See comment from SI about it not affecting passing: 

 

That is interesting because FM18 definitely dropped the passing directness slightly when it was set.

Thanks though, looks like I can turn it off. Does seem a strange instruction if that’s all it does, as doesn’t really encourage playing it out from the back, just “defenders split on goalkicks”. Maybe a better option would be in the distribution bit, have “split defenders” option rather than “play out of defense”?

[Rashidi]

You can play out of defence, that split out of defence has been done in such a way that you can take advantages of certain features that happen in real life. For example, Man City would typically split its central defenders to encourage other teams to shift up in an attempt to close them down, this would effectively leave them vulnerable. I will be playing with Liverpool on my youtube shows very soon to show the effect. I couldn't do a lot of the more complicated fun stuff with Stalybridge cos they can't even pass a ball over 30m.

[robot_skeleton]

13 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

You can play out of defence, that split out of defence has been done in such a way that you can take advantages of certain features that happen in real life. For example, Man City would typically split its central defenders to encourage other teams to shift up in an attempt to close them down, this would effectively leave them vulnerable. I will be playing with Liverpool on my youtube shows very soon to show the effect. I couldn't do a lot of the more complicated fun stuff with Stalybridge cos they can't even pass a ball over 30m.

Looking forward to it, would love to see it!

[craiigman]

I've booted up FM18 to confirm a few things, also FM19's description still says about passing:

And here's FM18 on attack with option off and then on:

Notice the passing directness drop.

@Jack Joyce as you responded in that thread, can you confirm this has now changed?

If that has been stopped and it doesn't effect passing, does that mean that "play out of defence" literally just splits the two centre backs on goal kicks, or is there more under the hood at play?

If it's just the goal kicks thing, I will raise a UI bug report for the text, and raise a feature request to ask it to be moved to the in transition 3rd under distribution as it makes no sense where it currently is, unless if does effect passing directness/ passing choices.

[s1111]

If you select Play Out of Defence the UI shortens the passing lengths for anyone in the GK, D and DM strata. Based on that thread, who knows if this is actually correct or something else no one has bothered paying attention to?

[HUNT3R]

5 minutes ago, s1111 said:

If you select Play Out of Defence the UI shortens the passing lengths for anyone in the GK, D and DM strata. Based on that thread, who knows if this is actually correct or something else no one has bothered paying attention to?

Jack is part of the match engine team, so he would know.

[Rashidi]

12 hours ago, s1111 said:

If you select Play Out of Defence the UI shortens the passing lengths for anyone in the GK, D and DM strata. Based on that thread, who knows if this is actually correct or something else no one has bothered paying attention to?

I recommend paying attention to what happens in the game rather than  the UI. Even in FM18 play out of defence affected positional factors, as far as passing length was concerned, no. There have been minor issues with the UI before, so I've learnt to pay attention to what happens in the game.

[Jack Joyce]

It doesn't set your defenders to shorter passing specifically, but it will effect their decision-making to encourage them to play out the back... which is usually shorter options anyway! It's a bit of a contradiction, but hopefully that makes sense. Of course your defenders will also split to help with this too.

[pheelf]

4 minutes ago, Jack Joyce said:

It doesn't set your defenders to shorter passing specifically, but it will effect their decision-making to encourage them to play out the back... which is usually shorter options anyway! It's a bit of a contradiction, but hopefully that makes sense. Of course your defenders will also split to help with this too.

I think these sort of aspects of the game need to be made more transparent, especially when what you've said directly contradicts what the UI shows. If the advice is being given to ignore the UI altogether then something is seriously wrong with the way the game is communicating to the user. I've always been an advocate for a more visual representation in the tactic creator for precisely this reason. Users shouldn't have to interpret what is meant by an instruction by a description it should be clearly visible.

[Jack Joyce]

8 minutes ago, pheelf said:

I think these sort of aspects of the game need to be made more transparent, especially when what you've said directly contradicts what the UI shows. If the advice is being given to ignore the UI altogether then something is seriously wrong with the way the game is communicating to the user. I've always been an advocate for a more visual representation in the tactic creator for precisely this reason. Users shouldn't have to interpret what is meant by an instruction by a description it should be clearly visible.

There's not really a simple way to show these kind of ME interactions in the UI since it's very complex under the hood. That's why we have the descriptions to help with this. The game isn't ignoring the UI, there's just a difference between using play out the back with direct passing and short passing.

[MBarbaric]

22 ore fa, Jack Joyce ha scritto:

there's just a difference between using play out the back with direct passing and short passing.

how do you play from the back with direct passing? I mean, if you play out from the back it means you want to play short and arrive in the middle third in an organized manner. isn't direct passing meant to get the ball quickly higher up the pitch which contradicts with playing out of the back?

shouldn't then play out of the back override passing (length) instructions completely, at least in the defensive third?

to elaborate a bit, teams that play from the back frequently do it with different scenarios in mind. 

i.e. above is an example of two scenarios. 

1) blue circle - the team plays to the right side and quickly switches the ball towards the left flank (blue circle). There, two cm's #17/#15 provide central short passing options while the winger #22 drops into half space offering another short passing option with the fb #35 optionally moving on an overlap to provide wide passing option.

2) red circle - central forward #20 is used as a direct passing option or as an outlet for clearances if the opposition manages to press the team.

 

above is another example where two cm's (#5 and #8) change duties with one of them dropping between the centerbacks (#8). if this encourages the opposition to press high into the orange rectangle zone, the full back #6 will move high up the pitch while the the half space is occupied by the second cm #5. he is provided with wide short passing option to full back (green circle). the second, central short passing options are provided by the winger dropping deep and the cam #38 (blue circle).

The central forward (red circle) serves as an outlet for clearances if the opposition manages to cover passing options. in this scenario, two wingers look to run behind the cf in order to get on the end of flick ons (red rectangle).

so, there is place for direct passing when playing from the back but there needs to be purpose and idea behind it.

[craiigman]

11 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

how do you play from the back with direct passing? I mean, if you play out from the back it means you want to play short and arrive in the middle third in an organized manner. isn't direct passing meant to get the ball quickly higher up the pitch which contradicts with playing out of the back?

shouldn't then play out of the back override passing instructions completely, at least in the defensive third?

I played a half with the option off and it saw my defenders playing long balls over the top a lot more than with it on.

I’m now very conflicted because I want to build from the back, but want distribution to full backs. I could set each defender to short passing, but I kind of thought that’s what “play out of defense” done. Which seems to be the case in game, but SI saying it’s not the case.

I’m confused.

[MBarbaric]

25 minuti fa, craiigman ha scritto:

I played a half with the option off and it saw my defenders playing long balls over the top a lot more than with it on.

I’m now very conflicted because I want to build from the back, but want distribution to full backs. I could set each defender to short passing, but I kind of thought that’s what “play out of defense” done. Which seems to be the case in game, but SI saying it’s not the case.

I’m confused.

i think the problem is with the way the instruction is implemented. in real, as you can see from above examples from Gremio and Corinthians, the teams use play from the back with certain aim. to get access to different zones on the pitch or specific players on the ball providing alternatives as well. it is also tied to how teams proceede to attack once they consolidate possession in the middle third but that is another topic.

In short, teams that play from the back do it for a specific reason that you can't force in the game. so, what it really does is just artificially makes the thing look like it is supposed to (cb's split) without really serving a specific purpose. Jack Joyce states above "There's not really a simple way to show these kind of ME interactions in the UI..." it isn't simple because the game is reverse ingeneering (so to speak) what happens in real without replicating the most important part - why it happens.