Failure...yet again.

[Bunkerossian]

I tried to break my solid record of failure with an HSV save. Did not work- I failed to record a single win in in 5 games in the league. Initially, there was a DLP-Su instead of a CM-Su role. After seeing that things didn't work well, I tried the CM-Su, with one instruction- Dribble Less. I wanted to see lots of crosses, but I often saw wingers hesitating to charge down the flank. The GK is set to distribute down the flanks. The screenshots are from the last save point.

[Atarin]

There's a lot of pressure on your midfield. Target Men and Poachers don't do a lot for you off the ball or defensively. Add to that you're playing with a 4 man midfield, add to that you've got 2 wingers on the flanks. That's a hell of a lot of workload and covering you're expecting your CMs to do.

TM & Poachers look for space, Wingers exploit Space. So who's feeding them? Not your CM(d) who will play it safe. So, you're CM(s) is doing a lot, if not all, of the creating as well as his covering work. You've also got an overlap going on, on your left flank so no wonder your W(s) isn't getting forward. With a FB(a) behind him he's expecting the overlap and so is holding back. The reason that your W(a) isn't charging down the flank is probably because he can see that if he did he's leaving the midfield & FB(s) exposed and he also doesn't think that there is anyone who'll get the ball to him. Your FB(a) may be holding back a bit as well because he's nervous about leaving gaps. I also notice that you've got Tighter Marking selected which could also explain why your FBs are not pushing too far forward, they've got defensive duties to worry about.

You've not selected many TIs. You're playing Standard, Flexible which is fine but it does mean that you're not playing especially narrow so all of the gaps that are inherent in a 4-4-2 are not only not being plugged but they''re being stretched a little bit. You're also not playing a defensive trap. Where do you expect to win the ball? Its not going to be up top because your TM & P aren't suited to doing that and you'd probably need an extra player up there anyway to make it work. Your Wingers are too far away. Your midfield is too disjointed to win the ball in the middle third & you aren't playing deep and compact enough to win the ball on the edge of your box. So its unclear what your defensive strategy is.

Tactically, you can start from one end or the other, its a matter of taste, but you do have to decide - how you are going to score your goals (literally) and how you are going to retrieve possession once you've lost it. If you want to play a TM/P combo then that ties you down on how you're going to score your goals (by the way I have very, very rarely seen anyone get that combo to work in this game). You would know that you want crosses and lots of them. You'd know you want space for the poacher to exploit and you'd know that you needed plenty of covering Roles & Duties in the midfield to make up for the couple of selfish strikers up top who won't do much work defensively.

This thread is a great place to start. Tactical Central & Strategy Design by LL

[Scrench]

Seems very one dimensional and boring.

1)You tell your goalkeeper to distribute to your full backs... and then what? Most likely they will be isolated, the enemy striker blocking the centre back next to him, your cm-d and w-a also being marked by the enemy so his only option is to pump it forward to the target man, so you might just intsruct your goalkeeper to distribute to your TM.

2)The front two are isolated. The TM will encouarage long balls early, and when he manages to get the ball he has no support around him. His only option is the poacher, and unless the TM is a fantastic playmaker as well, he will not be able to relase him behind the opposition defence. Neither the midfielders nor the wingers offer any sort of support to him. Maybe turning the poacher into SS can be a solution so he starts deeper and can win second balls, wait for the teammates and still be an attacking threat in similar fashion to the poacher.

3)One dimensional wingers. Both of them are from the traditional run and cross type, but they also get little support and can end up getting double marked and not being able to do anything besides laying off a pass to a teammate.

My suggestion would be to turn your TM into a DLF --> the behaviour will be similar, but without the ball magnet status. It still encouarages vertical play.

P into an SS-a--> see 2)

turn one of your wingers into a more centrally focused role, for example WP or a customized WM--> offers better support, can become the man between the lines and overally adds a lot of versatility to your play.

If any of my observations are incorrect or you see something else let me know.

Edit: The tight marking instruction also seems off, I don't see how could that be of any use, it will just stretch your already fragile midfield a little more.

[Bunkerossian]

I selected Tighter Marking because I had conceded a lot ( the goals seemed to be a consequence of loose marking), particularly in the end stages of games. I selected Poacher after noticing in pre-season that the left-sided striker drifted too much to the flank. I want him to be close to the Target Man. Now, the TM is Lasogga- fantastic stats for a TM, other than Passing and Teamwork. So, DLF is out of the question. Is there a way to make a Poacher+ TM (At) work?

[Scrench]

TM also needs passing and teamwork, although you are right that they need it to a lesser amount. The main difference is the ball-magnet status and vertical movement. While the target man looks to back up to his marker and use his physical superiority to win duels, the DLF drops off his marker to become the man between the lines, lay off passes(does this more on S duty) or turn around and try to do something (does more on A duty). Passing is truly more important for dlf but anything above 11-12 is very good for them for the level you are playing, remember they are not playmakers.

If you really want to use TM + P then building an adequate support structure around them seems to be the solution.

My suggestion would be a 3-4-1-2 style of system, with an AP playing behind the two strikes. This way the TM can lay off passes to the AP who is facing the opposition goal, and can easily find the poacher with a killer ball. Other might come up with better solutions but this is the thing that first came to my mind. Hope it was helpful.

[Bunkerossian]

My main striker is lacking in both those attributes.  My centre backs are few in number, and certainly need improvement. The strength of the team lies in crossing in all wide positions, pacey wingers, and two good midfield destroyers (I alternate them on the CM-D position)

[Bunkerossian]

What would I need to change the other striker to, if I wanted to use Lasogga as a Target Man (Attack)?

[jorgvandervloed]

@Bunkerossian

Using a Targetman will make your other players hit long balls to him. So instead of your wingers getting the ball and do their thing, he will receive the ball and will only have the other striker to kick the ball to. My guess...

Try changing him to a DLF, a very similar role but without the hard-coded long balls. 

                      P (A)   -   DLF (A)

W (S)   -   BBM (S)   -   DLP (D)   -   W (S)

FB (S)   -   CD (D)     -   CD (D)     -   FB (S)

Assuming you have two good wingers, who can beat a man and put in a cross, you want multiple bodies in the box. Otherwise, it will be too easy to mark them. The BBM (S) will make runs as well and I'm sure the W's will make an occasional appearance in the box as well. 

Just my guess...

[Atarin]

Using the TM role is so difficult. A TM doesn't roam or offer much penetration, so that requires you to position one of your outfield players up near him to do that. But now that's 1 less player to keep shape, offer cover and/or create chances. As previously mentioned, as well, the TM encourages quick, direct passes straight to him, potentially missing out the wingers entirely. You can play a natural TM as a DLF and achieve roughly the same thing, or even a DF. It works incredibly well if the player has the "Plays With Back to Goal" PPM. If you really want the ball pumped up to your TM so he can knock it down for someone to run on to then go with a TM and pair him with an AF or Poacher but understand that this will really limit what your team is capable of. It'll be difficult to get extra runners up field to join in because you're already fairly exposed with just two CMs. Your play will be very one dimensional and predictable. There won't be a lot of rotation or off the ball movement.

Another way to go is to stick your TM up front on his own with a CF(a) or TM(a) Duty. Keep your wingers out wide with Support Duties and play three in central midfield with at least one player tasked with making late runs into the box, this player could be moved forward into the AM strata if you want although, again, this runs the risk of leaving you with just two players holding the centre. You could try to encourage you team to use the wingers more by playing wider or exploiting the flanks.

Basically it all boils down to what you want to do, but remember that there are always compromises and trade offs. An extra player forward is one less player back, one more one-dimensional specialist is one less versatile team player.

How is your TEAM going to score goals and how is your TEAM going to keep them out. A defence can't defend on their own and very few attacks can attack on their own.

[Bunkerossian]

13 minutes ago, Teabs said:

Using the TM role is so difficult. A TM doesn't roam or offer much penetration, so that requires you to position one of your outfield players up near him to do that. But now that's 1 less player to keep shape, offer cover and/or create chances. As previously mentioned, as well, the TM encourages quick, direct passes straight to him, potentially missing out the wingers entirely. You can play a natural TM as a DLF and achieve roughly the same thing, or even a DF. It works incredibly well if the player has the "Plays With Back to Goal" PPM. If you really want the ball pumped up to your TM so he can knock it down for someone to run on to then go with a TM and pair him with an AF or Poacher but understand that this will really limit what your team is capable of. It'll be difficult to get extra runners up field to join in because you're already fairly exposed with just two CMs. Your play will be very one dimensional and predictable. There won't be a lot of rotation or off the ball movement.

Another way to go is to stick your TM up front on his own with a CF(a) or TM(a) Duty. Keep your wingers out wide with Support Duties and play three in central midfield with at least one player tasked with making late runs into the box, this player could be moved forward into the AM strata if you want although, again, this runs the risk of leaving you with just two players holding the centre. You could try to encourage you team to use the wingers more by playing wider or exploiting the flanks.

Basically it all boils down to what you want to do, but remember that there are always compromises and trade offs. An extra player forward is one less player back, one more one-dimensional specialist is one less versatile team player.

How is your TEAM going to score goals and how is your TEAM going to keep them out. A defence can't defend on their own and very few attacks can attack on their own.

Isn't OTB movement  governed by the attribute? I have several players who have great OTb attribute, the Target Man is one of them. I do admit that my plan was to actually attack with the strikers, and maybe one winger who is set to Attack duty.

[Svenc]

This is the tactics forum but, this is Hamburg. They've been lucky to stay up for half a decade now. They have streaks like that multiple times a season. They went into the last one not wining a match until November (winless in the first 14 games). If the research did it's job, that's going to be in the game somehow. That doesn't mean go can't do better. But there's more areas of the job than just tactics... the entire game is supposed to be more about than just tactics.

[Bunkerossian]

8 minutes ago, Svenc said:

This is the tactics forum but, this is Hamburg. They've been lucky to stay up for half a decade now. They have streaks like that multiple times a season. They went into the last one not wining a match until November (winless in the first 14 games). If the research did it's job, that's going to be in the game somehow. That doesn't mean go can't do better. But there's more areas of the job than just tactics... the entire game is supposed to be more about than just tactics.

When picking a team, I look at the predicted finish, and for HSV it says 10th. Now, I admit the DC-s are poor, and both GK-s seem to not know how to make a save that would prevent the opposition players from getting a second shot in.

[Atarin]

2 hours ago, Bunkerossian said:

Isn't OTB movement  governed by the attribute? I have several players who have great OTb attribute, the Target Man is one of them. I do admit that my plan was to actually attack with the strikers, and maybe one winger who is set to Attack duty.

No. OTB attribute merely tells you how intelligently the player CAN move off the ball under the ideal circumstances. If they have a PPM that makes them static then the OTB attribute is kind of irrelevant. Equally if you give the player with good OTB a Role that encourages holding their position, like TM, then a OTB of 20 isn't going to make any difference, unless they also have a PPM that forces them to wander but then you've completely negated the whole point of a TM, which is to be fairly deep, fairly central and very easy to find with a quick pass without having to spend too long looking for them.

[Bunkerossian]

8 minutes ago, Teabs said:

No. OTB attribute merely tells you how intelligently the player CAN move off the ball under the ideal circumstances. If they have a PPM that makes them static then the OTB attribute is kind of irrelevant. Equally if you give the player with good OTB a Role that encourages holding their position, like TM, then a OTB of 20 isn't going to make any difference, unless they also have a PPM that forces them to wander but then you've completely negated the whole point of a TM, which is to be fairly deep, fairly central and very easy to find with a quick pass without having to spend too long looking for them.

What would I need to do to get the Target Man into positions where he can attack the goal more often?

[Atarin]

23 minutes ago, Bunkerossian said:

What would I need to do to get the Target Man into positions where he can attack the goal more often?

It depends. Where's the supply coming from? What formation are you using?

If you're successfully getting the ball wide and whipping it in then I'm not sure you need a target man. A Target Man is exactly that, a Target to hit from deep, its hard coded into the game. When your players see a TM ahead of them they will always prefer playing up to him early and direct before they consider anyone else.

If you're using a TM then see him as a pivot. The ball travels from the back up to the opposition's defensive third. The Target Man receives the ball with his back to goal and immediately plays someone in or he holds it up until support arrives.

The Target Man on Attack Duty essentially does the same job but just much higher. He will attempt to drive the defence back towards their goal and then win a header or a challenge in the penalty box. He's still not a natural goal scorer though. He's not going to get you 20 goals a season doing that.

What you're describing is far more like a Poacher or an Advances Forward. The Ball goes out wide and your TM is prowling in or around the box ready to finish the move. If you want to emphasis his aerial prowess then make sure you use the TI Float Crosses. You could potentially also tell your wingers to Aim Cross at Target Man.

[Bunkerossian]

14 minutes ago, Teabs said:

It depends. Where's the supply coming from? What formation are you using?

If you're successfully getting the ball wide and whipping it in then I'm not sure you need a target man. A Target Man is exactly that, a Target to hit from deep, its hard coded into the game. When your players see a TM ahead of them they will always prefer playing up to him early and direct before they consider anyone else.

If you're using a TM then see him as a pivot. The ball travels from the back up to the opposition's defensive third. The Target Man receives the ball with his back to goal and immediately plays someone in or he holds it up until support arrives.

The Target Man on Attack Duty essentially does the same job but just much higher. He will attempt to drive the defence back towards their goal and then win a header or a challenge in the penalty box. He's still not a natural goal scorer though. He's not going to get you 20 goals a season doing that.

What you're describing is far more like a Poacher or an Advances Forward. The Ball goes out wide and your TM is prowling in or around the box ready to finish the move. If you want to emphasis his aerial prowess then make sure you use the TI Float Crosses. You could potentially also tell your wingers to Aim Cross at Target Man.

I have done this.  So, there is not a way to get a TM to function both as a hold-up player and a goalscorer via headers? The other striker would be an extra threat the defense must contend with.

[Atarin]

What you're describing isn't a TM. If you want him to create, like a TM but score goals like an AF then you're talking about a CF. Complete Forwards are players who can come short, hold it up, link things together, run from deep and finish moves - not all at the same time, though. He can't be in two places at once. He can't be coming short and holding it up AND moving into space and offering a threat in behind. In this case you're going to need varied supply - so that sometimes he comes short, sometimes he goes long. So someone who can get wide and deliver crosses as well as someone who can thread balls through to him, as well as someone who can run off him. You could have Wing Backs supplying from wide, one CM bombing on and one threading passes. Or you could have one Winger, something different like an IF or AP on the other wing & maybe an SS or AP behind. Another version could be two wingers in the MR/ML slots and an SS up behind the CF. This means the wingers adopt solid defensive positions without the ball but can still offer plenty of width on it. The SS can offer closing down, defensive compactness and breaking the lines along with the CF. There's many, many variations you could try. All the time, though, don't forget to ask yourself who's getting the ball TO these players, HOW, and who is lending a hand when the CF's move comes to nothing and he needs to recycle it again.

[Bunkerossian]

19 minutes ago, Teabs said:

What you're describing isn't a TM. If you want him to create, like a TM but score goals like an AF then you're talking about a CF. Complete Forwards are players who can come short, hold it up, link things together, run from deep and finish moves - not all at the same time, though. He can't be in two places at once. He can't be coming short and holding it up AND moving into space and offering a threat in behind. In this case you're going to need varied supply - so that sometimes he comes short, sometimes he goes long. So someone who can get wide and deliver crosses as well as someone who can thread balls through to him, as well as someone who can run off him. You could have Wing Backs supplying from wide, one CM bombing on and one threading passes. Or you could have one Winger, something different like an IF or AP on the other wing & maybe an SS or AP behind. Another version could be two wingers in the MR/ML slots and an SS up behind the CF. This means the wingers adopt solid defensive positions without the ball but can still offer plenty of width on it. The SS can offer closing down, defensive compactness and breaking the lines along with the CF. There's many, many variations you could try. All the time, though, don't forget to ask yourself who's getting the ball TO these players, HOW, and who is lending a hand when the CF's move comes to nothing and he needs to recycle it again.

I guess I've opened a massive can of worms. And all I wanted initially was a system that lets my wide players cross to the target man- whether for a knock-down or a direct header at goal,. All 4 of my available fullbacks know how to cross well. The left winger is a master of it too. The right one is not as good (13 crossing), but he can't do much else with the ball- Pace and hard work are his strengths. When I pieced together the tactic, I had in mind the header masters of oldtimer football: Bierhoff, McBride, Borgetti, Vieri... My striker needs to emulate them in aerial prowess, for which he has the attributes.

also, simplicity. I thought I couldn't **** up a 442.

[Atarin]

Believe me, I get it. The game can be frustrating as hell until you strip away so many of your assumptions and just understand the nuts and bolts of it all. I always wanted to play with a TM and just could never get it to work, then I read loads of threads and guides and the penny finally dropped. My TM's weren't underperforming, they were either doing exactly what they are meant to do and I was just expecting too much or I had set my tactic up thinking my TM would have an all round game not realising that the TM is an incredibly limited Role by design. In FM the TM comes short, attracts the ball early and doesn't roam from position, that's pretty much it. The rest is in our imagination & the player identity (i,e - attributes & PPMs). You can't really use the TM role as an all rounder who gets in behind, roams from position and doesn't attract the ball early because that is hardcoded into the Role & ME. What you have to do is work out what you want from your team and your player, who may well be the archetypal TM, and then find a Role that will do that. Its counter-intuitive to play him as an AF, a Poacher, a DLF or a CF but if that Role contains the hard coding & PIs that get the job done then that's just what you have to do.

[Atarin]

Just an add on to that. In terms of developing your tactic, worry about getting the ball to your wingers. Worry about getting your wingers into the final third and getting in a good ball. Worry about finding a Role & Duty that gets your TM into the right position. As long as the delivery is good and the right kind of pass/cross then chances are your TM will find the net with his head no matter what Role you've selected. Even if he's playing as a poacher he should get most of his goals with his head if that's what the supply is. The key, again, is to think about how all the parts will work and come together. If your TM is slow then obviously you can't expect him to outpace anyone and race into position so your build up can't be too fast or you'll leave him behind, the other alternative is that you play high so he's closer to goal to begin with. These are just all little things that would cross my mind if I was building a tactic for a player like this.

[Bunkerossian]

The distribution from the GK should sort out the supply, but there seems to be a problem, as my GK only occasionally gives the ball to the full backs. Basically, Plan A was supposed to be: play in the wingers, who then charge forth, and cross when in position. If they are blocked, direct long balls from the FB-s should find the big man.

[Bunkerossian]

I hate to have to bump this again, but I'm really at the end of my strengths.  I think a tactic looks good pre-season, and then, when the league starts- no points come in. It's like pre-season can't tell you anything about your tactic. Is there a definitive answer on how to predict the effectiveness of a tactic, or spot problems that aren't obvious immediately?

[HUNT3R]

It'll obviously depend on what you measure a tactic to be "great" in. Pre-season, AI teams won't care about winning or losing. It's about getting everyone fit.

[Cleon]

2 minutes ago, Bunkerossian said:

I hate to have to bump this again, but I'm really at the end of my strengths.  I think a tactic looks good pre-season, and then, when the league starts- no points come in. It's like pre-season can't tell you anything about your tactic. Is there a definitive answer on how to predict the effectiveness of a tactic, or spot problems that aren't obvious immediately?

When I am trying to spot issues I keep it very simple and split it into two categories;

• With the ball
• Without the ball

That’s it, nothing more. I don’t even pay attention to what the opposition is doing which is what people seem to get hung upon and confuses the situation. The reasons for not paying attention to the opposition is simple, it will always be different in every match so instead of focusing on an area that is always changing I’d rather focus on my own style and philosophy that I am creating at the club. This then allows me to focus on what my players are or aren’t doing during a game which is a lot more helpful that focusing on the opposition. By also doing it this way it allows me to focus on my team as a unit and see how all the roles, personal instructions, team instructions and the general shape all work together to provide the defensive cover and attacking threat that I need.

The reason for splitting what I am looking at during a match into with and without the ball is because it shows us what’s happening during different phases of the game. Just because you defend solid or cause the opposition a massive threat in the final third, doesn’t mean you have balance and can do both simultaneous. It also makes it very quickly to identify issues because you have a lot less going on.

Without The Ball

When viewing games and looking for what my players are doing without the ball this includes both defensive and attacking phases. So immediately you can see the positions the players take up when defending as well as seeing how they move off the ball when attacking. I’ve banged on about this for the past 10 years but the most important aspect of trying to identify these issue is using the pause button. Pause the game at random stages throughout, to see what positions the players have taken up and to enable you to see what is happening around them. Not only that but also use different camera angles to view things as it gives you a much better picture of what’s going on seeing incidents from a different view.

That’s a little example of what I am talking about, after randomly pausing the game to have a look around. You can see my back four just in front of the white line and the three circled players are my midfielders. As you can see my three midfielders are quite narrow leaving the flanks exposed. I could panic here and see this as an issue or I could remember that the formation I use is a 4-3-1-2 so the midfield being narrow isn’t a bad thing. This is just one angle though, what does it look like from a different one?!

That’s the exact same as the first screenshot just from a different angle. In the first one, it looks like I’m more stretched than I actually am and that the opposition could really exploit the flank if they wanted. But the second screenshot shows it in a different light and shows that while the flanks might be uncovered, I’m anything but stretched and players are in a position to be able to deal with any kind of threat down my left hand side. There really isn’t a point to this example, it was more showing you how pausing the game and viewing from different angles can be beneficial and show you things in a different light.

Let’s take a look at some examples now that show how we can try to identify issues.

This is again another random time in the game were I paused it when we didn’t have possession of the ball.  You can see my midfield and how they are position as well as seeing the defence and how they line up. As I use a flat three in the centre of the park, the space between defence and midfield will be an issue as I don’t play with a particularly high line. So the opposition will at times be unmarked and free in these kinds of areas. It’s not ideal but it’s the downside of using a flat midfield. The most central midfielder who is on a defensive duty will drop back deep and track though. It’s just initially he won’t be as deep as someone who plays in the defensive midfield position.

My ball winning midfielder should be able to deal with the oppositions wide player in this screenshot as he’s facing the correct way and already running back. Plus my wingback is in a good position and is also retreating to a deeper position meaning my defensive players are all playing as a unit and staying tight rather than pushing higher up and causing gaps to appear. If my wingback did push up a bit higher you can see that the opposition player who is circled would have lots of space to run into in the little channel between wingback and central defender. I’d be surprised or very unlucky if the opposition could hurt me from here. I have the numbers advantage and have players able to deal with the threat. It would take something rather special to cost me here (or an individual error I suppose).

If you do this with your own systems then you should try to remember how you’ve set up, what roles you’ve used and even personal instructions and then check to see if you have players positioned where possible danger areas from the opposition could be. In fact, I’ll use the same screenshot as above but this time I’ll just focus on the areas the opposition could possibly use against me, as that might help a few people out who are struggling with identifying issues.

The screenshot looks a bit messy but hopefully I can explain the reasonings behind it correctly so it makes sense.

1 – This player can hurt me by running from deep especially as my own wingback is facing away from him and moving back. My ball winning midfielder is also facing towards my own goal, so he is blindsided by the opposition here. This means that the oppositions wide man has free run unless something changes here. Deep runners are always hard to pick up for anyone. This isn’t a worry for me though because do you remember me saying I ignore the opposition at the beginning of the article? Well I do so because my side are set up to play a specific way and I want them to play as a cohesive unit rather than trying to deal with things themselves. This means at times that I will easily give up space like this because to deal with it would mean straying from what I am creating and how I’ve set up to play. I do have players positioned to deal with him as highlighted in the part above though. It’s just I don’t need to rush to deal with the issue.

2 – Although the opposition’s player who is marked number three in the above screenshot is facing away from this player and heading the opposite way, he is still a threat for the same reasons as the example above. He’s a late runner and he might not be an immediate threat but if he drives forward then he could be problematic later in the move. So when looking if something is a threat or an issue, be aware that players making late runs can be very problematic later in the move. So not only are you looking for immediate threats, you are looking for possible threats too.

3 – Everything that will or won’t happen in this move all starts here as he’s the player on the ball. This player can either dwell on the ball and pick a pass to either the number four and make a forward run or pass to the number one. Another option here is he could drive forward with the ball himself, he has the space initially to do this. He can run with the ball in two different directions though and both would cause different kind of issues. One is he drives towards the touchline which could potentially cause an overlap if the opposition’s player who is marked number one, carries on his run. I think this option is unlikely but we still need to identify that it is possible. The other option is he runs between the wingback and central defender and if he did do that then space would open up elsewhere on the pitch because my wingback would become more narrow and come across to deal with it. While at the same time this would mean the player with the number one on the pitch, would be totally free for a simple sideways pass.

4 – This is the problematic player because he’s the runner and he could go whichever way he wanted, so you can’t really plan for that type of movement. Even if he makes a run and doesn’t receive the ball his movement will still have caused some kind of damage because movement creates space appearing.

So those are the types of things you should be looking for. It’s not complicated and when trying to identify issues just remember not to over think it and keep it to simple terms and be as basic as possible. Is someone a runner? If so they’ll cause movement and what happens if someone goes across to cover, does this then leave a gap that the opposition could use?! Those are the kind of basic questions you should be asking. You don’t need any knowledge of football to really understand the simple things, you should be able to identify stuff easy.

I know the above is just two short examples but it still should be more than enough to show you the basics and how you should be viewing games when looking to find possible issues or trying to discover why something might have happened.

With The Ball

This is just as easy as the above but remember you want to look at the positions of the players not on the ball too as everyone who is currently on the ball needs support.

This is just a typical move started by my left wingback. It’s important here that I can gauge the kind of areas my players are taking up. If my attackers and midfield are too advanced then how do I get the ball from the wingback to the attacking players? It would be a very hard task and would likely result in me giving possession away. So it’s important I have options and players who are capable of linking play up, it means the move can flow if everyone is staggered.  As you can see my two strikers are positioned high which is their job and the attacking midfielder is hanging back in space the same as my advanced playmaker. The strikers are already being a nuisance due to their movement and looking to run in behind already. Gilberto is the player currently on the ball, so now he can either move forward if he wishes and tries to take his man on (this option would be a waste though seeing how I have control over the middle) or he could easily pass it inside to the advanced playmaker. He could technically drive forward a bit and still pass sideways.

That’s the exact same move but just from a different angle. The aerial view shows how much space the advanced playmaker and attacking midfielder have to play in. They have space and time so if they did receive the ball they should be able to dictate the play. You’ll also notice that there are three triangles too that the players create between each other which also allows for link up play.

Advanced Playmaker  – He is a creator so it’s highly unlikely he’ll get into the box that often or be a direct goal threat. So if he picks the ball up he will be looking to make something happen in terms of a pass or some kind of through ball. He might dribble forward but if he does he is still likely to release the ball to someone else at some stage because he is a creator above all else. He has plenty of options though for a pass or through ball so this is good and shows he is taking up the positions he should be taking up.

Attacking Midfielder – This lad does a bit of everything but he is a runner and a direct goal threat because he will look to make those run in behind the defence and get into the oppositions box. he’s basically central to everything in attack and is an option for the advanced playmaker to so he isn’t crowded out.

Deep-Lying Forward – Not only is he a goal threat but he is a creative striker. But in this move he is both a direct goal threat and also a decoy. He’s a decoy because he is occupying one of the two centre backs which means if the attacking midfielder makes a run forward the opposition have a choice to make. Do they step up and deal with him or leave him be to carry on marking the deep-lying forward? Either decision they make is the wrong one as it means I have a free man. For me it’s win win.

Advanced Forward – The exact same as above, he is occupying the second opposition central defender. Again he is both a decoy and goal threat because he is making a run and can be available for a pass if needs be. So he has a dual role in this move.

All of the above are what working as a team and having roles and duties that compliment each other is all about. So pausing the game has allowed me to see that they are indeed functioning as a unit rather than individuals, which I wouldn’t know if I hadn’t watched games back and paused at random times.

I know I’ve only really used one example of each but if I keep showing more examples I would be here all day long just repeating what I’ve wrote above so rather than waffle on I thought I’d keep it rather short to just give you an idea of how you can simplify things for yourself and spot potential issues or to see if your side is working both in attacking and defensive phases of play.

[Bunkerossian]

Thank you. However, are there issues that can remain...hidden until a certail calibre of opposition is faced? I had thought my centre backs should be able to control the penalty box area, based on friendlies, but in the league, it was disproved. My strikers were prolific in the pre-season, but had low ratings as soon as the league started.

[Cleon]

7 minutes ago, Bunkerossian said:

Thank you. However, are there issues that can remain...hidden until a certail calibre of opposition is faced? I had thought my centre backs should be able to control the penalty box area, based on friendlies, but in the league, it was disproved. My strikers were prolific in the pre-season, but had low ratings as soon as the league started.

Nothing is hidden, you should be able to see all issues if you're doing something similar to above. You know/can see if the player isn't doing what he's supposed to be doing. if you're unsure of what the player should be doing look at his role/duty and read the description. That's enough to give a basic overlook. If your defenders aren't controlling the box then look at why. Look at what happens before the ball comes into your box, it might be a midfield issue etc. Your defence is the last line of defence, not the first. Controlling your own penalty box starts by looking at what the player in front of the defence do, not the defenders.

You seem to focus on what's happened rather than what is happening currently throughout the thread. Forget preseason and start looking at why your strikers aren't prolific atm. Is there supply? Do players offer support? Is the striker marked out of the game etc. 

[Bunkerossian]

Just now, Cleon said:

Nothing is hidden, you should be able to see all issues if you're doing something similar to above. You know/can see if the player isn't doing what he's supposed to be doing. if you're unsure of what the player should be doing look at his role/duty and read the description. That's enough to give a basic overlook. 

You seem to focus on what's happened rather than what is happening currently throughout the thread. Forget preseason and start looking at why your strikers aren't prolific atm. Is there supply? Do players offer support? Is the striker marked out of the game etc. 

Well, the main striker in the latest save (Chievo) could finish, but is old and immobile . So, I paired him up with another, less capable but more energetic Defensive Forward. in the league, the AF/DF combo totally couldn't do anything. I had tried a Target Man striker instead of the DF- nothing. Having used a 4-3-1-2, I knew flanks would be weak. While in the pre-season, my midfield 3 worked with the defense to minimize issues, in the league, a BWM(S), DLP-D and CM-Su weren't successful. An AM-Su was in front on them, as I had no clue what role to put, but it was OK in pre-season. I needed the AM for set pieces.

Somehow, the old man up front could not get into clear chances, while the flanks were more porous than I'd like. Both wide defenders were FB-Su.

[Cleon]

1 minute ago, Bunkerossian said:

Well, the main striker in the latest save (Chievo) could finish, but is old and immobile . So, I paired him up with another, less capable but more energetic Defensive Forward. in the league, the AF/DF combo totally couldn't do anything. I had tried a Target Man striker instead of the DF- nothing. Having used a 4-3-1-2, I knew flanks would be weak. While in the pre-season, my midfield 3 worked with the defense to minimize issues, in the league, a BWM(S), DLP-D and CM-Su weren't successful. An AM-Su was in front on them, as I had no clue what role to put, but it was OK in pre-season. I needed the AM for set pieces.

Somehow, the old man up front could not get into clear chances, while the flanks were more porous than I'd like. Both wide defenders were FB-Su.

 You change the striker roles and that change didn't work. Are you sure its a striker issue and not a supply/support one? As any combination of striker roles work together the key is understanding the supply and support they need based on the roles you choose. You keep saying your striker offers nothing regardless of role but never state why. Was he having shot? If so what kind of areas were the shots being taken etc. Those are the questions you need to ask and look for. You can find all of this with a simple one click and look in the analysis tab of the games played. You'll see everything then, can see his movement, how many times he was passed the ball and who passed it etc. 

[Bunkerossian]

5 minutes ago, Cleon said:

 You change the striker roles and that change didn't work. Are you sure its a striker issue and not a supply/support one? As any combination of striker roles work together the key is understanding the supply and support they need based on the roles you choose. You keep saying your striker offers nothing regardless of role but never state why. Was he having shot? If so what kind of areas were the shots being taken etc. Those are the questions you need to ask and look for. You can find all of this with a simple one click and look in the analysis tab of the games played. You'll see everything then, can see his movement, how many times he was passed the ball and who passed it etc. 

He never really managed to get a shot- the defeners seemed to cut off the pass. The faster guy was rarely in space to run. I hadn't saved before the match after which I had quit, so I must pull information from my memory. I know the only goals I could score were long range shots by central MF-s. My forwards were just outclassed.

[Seagullfan]

You seem to be missing the point Cleon is making. A striker suddenly stops scoring so you change his role in the hope he will start scoring again. You are looking at things in isolation and not the bigger picture. You would be better conducting the analysis as suggested which focusses on all aspects of what goes into the end product.

You need to look and understand why all of a a sudden he is not scoring by looking at the events leading up to the point when the attack breaks down. If you don't know why he isn't scoring then how will you know why any changes you make are likely to work?

i have always been an advocate of Cleons continually stop the action in the first 5 mins to see how the game is shaping up. If you can take the time to see what is happening in this period then you will know what pattern the match is following and be able to take any appropriate action to correct any likely issues before they hurt you.

 

[Svenc]

When looking at forwards he would also need to understand the nature of streaks.... if the overall stats aren't bothersome, I wouldn't even obsess about it that much. Forwards, in-game too, finish consistently when they are getting a ton of decent shots from decent positions. When they don't, they don't. This was highlighted also in threads where guys showed the AI how to turn Messi into Messi, that is consistently banging them in. In real football he gets off 5 shots per match consistently (Ronaldo up to 7) for scoring 1+ goal/match. Indeed, the average shot conversions of a top forward is no higher than 25-20%. As such, strikers get into what is oft perceived as bad/good runs simply by the fact that even one on one, the keeper is typically favored to save.  All these numbers can be displayed in the game. However, managing poor teams, unless he gets his forward consistently to shot at least 3-4 times a match, e.g. Lewandowski managed by AI here (shots p 90 minutes column) no dice.
 

 

On 8/18/2017 at 14:22, Bunkerossian said:

When picking a team, I look at the predicted finish, and for HSV it says 10th. Now, I admit the DC-s are poor, and both GK-s seem to not know how to make a save that would prevent the opposition players from getting a second shot in.

The predicted finish is in big parts based on where the team finished the previous season, which was 10th in a sequence of 16th places (and the only difference in that season effectively getting a few tiny additional points, which is oft the difference between seemingly mid-table and getting relegated anyhow). In the Bundesliga, it's oft the difference between Europa League and entering the relegation play-offs. Hamburg are a well below average side at the start, as can also be seen how the AI does with them. And five matches without a win aren't even anything worth posting from my end, in particular with an average side. Yes it's a game, yes you can do better. Some do significantly, either by exploiting the lack of AI decision making, it being AI in the first place (which means it lacks creativity) or by hitting engine inherent defensive holes as big you can drive a truck through (which no AI opponent ever targets). But if you can't manage expectations, you can't ever manage the game.

[Bunkerossian]

6 minutes ago, Svenc said:

When looking at forwards he would also need to understand the nature of streaks.... if the overall stats aren't bothersome, I wouldn't even obsess about it that much. Forwards, in-game too, finish consistently when they are getting a ton of decent shots from decent positions. When they don't, they don't. This was highlighted also in threads where guys showed the AI how to turn Messi into Messi, that is consistently banging them in. In real football he gets off 5 shots per match consistently (Ronaldo up to 7) for scoring 1+ goal/match. Indeed, the average shot conversions of a top forward is no higher than 25-20%. As such, strikers get into what is oft perceived as bad/good runs simply by the fact that even one on one, the keeper is typically favored to save.  All these numbers can be displayed in the game. However, managing poor teams, unless he gets his forward consistently to shot at least 3-4 times a match, e.g. Lewandowski managed by AI here (shots p 90 minutes column) no dice.
 

 

The predicted finish is in big parts based on where the team finished the previous season, which was 10th in a sequence of 16th places (and the only difference in that season effectively getting a few tiny additional points, which is oft the difference between seemingly mid-table and getting relegated anyhow). In the Bundesliga, it's oft the difference between Europa League and entering the relegation play-offs. Hamburg are a well below average side at the start, as can also be seen how the AI does with them. And five matches without a win aren't even anything worth posting from my end, in particular with an average side. Yes it's a game, yes you can do better. Some do significantly, either by exploiting the lack of AI decision making, it being AI in the first place (which means it lacks creativity) or by hitting engine inherent defensive holes as big you can drive a truck through (which no AI opponent ever targets). But if you can't manage expectations, you can't ever manage the game.

I must admit I have low patience with myself.. But regardless of that, it is also hard for me to see problems. Randomly stopping the game to look at positioning probably wouldn't tell me much, because I wouldn't know what constitutes  bad positioning. If the players seem to be positioned as the formation states, I probably wouldn't look in much further.

[Bunkerossian]

after @Cleon advised me to look for positioning of players, I've taken screenshots in the first friendly of the season in my new save. I don't see anything obviously wrong in those screenshots, but the opposition seriously threatened me and dominated, especially in the first half. Formation is a 4-4-2 as in the first post of the topic, but with a Cm-Su instead of a DLP-Su, and the left FB is on Support duty.