Help Again Please

[LCFCEaves31]

Hi Everyone,

Previously been on, and all the help I received last time was very helpful. I started a save with Cambridge in League 2, and through the help on here, I feel I have a much better understand of what I am doing... well I did, until now. I have encountered my first real bad patch, midway into my 5th Season.

Very briefly, here's what has happened so far:
1st Season - League 2 Play-off Final - Defeat
2nd Season - League 2 3rd place - Promoted to League 1
3rd Season - Play-off Final - Win - Promoted to Championship
4th Season - Championship 11th place
5th Season - after 35th games, 9th place

So what is frustrating the life out of me at the moment, is the fact that we started the season poorly with a couple of defeats, but pulled us out of it before it turned into a typical FM rot. Got to the dizzy heights of 4th at one stage, but now we have 1 league game in 9... And what is most frustrating, is now all of a sudden, we have completely lost all intelligence it seems in defending... teams cut through us like butter (Teams who in the bottom 3 I may add) and we seem so far off the pace. We are having some bad luck at the same time, which is one of those things, we keep hitting the woodwork and strikers are blasting the ball straight at goalkeepers when one on one or 5 yards from goal, but that I put down to confidence which has obviously started to take a dive.

So... I will post tactics etc. in a minute, but the typical cliché for FM novices comes to mind... "They were working so it cannot be the tactics'. So if it isn't, what the hell is it and what can I do about it?!

I have also posted some screenshots of our comparison to the rest of the league, because to be honest, I think we were over-achieving and now teams are taking note of us... I have tried making minor changes to the tactics and apart from a 1-0 win in the FA Cup against much stronger opposition, we have been terrible.

Anyway, any help again from you guys would be much appreciated. I need to break out of this rot before I lose my mind! (Sorry in advance for the amount of screenshots!)

 

[BadanieLuck]

Do you have any PIs for your midfield trio?
At first glance, there is no real creator in the team (except maybe for the IF(s)). In general your team lacks a bit of creativity. Without using any playmakers, there is no player trying to play the killer ball to unlock defenses. Also the movement of 3 CMs without any PIs can become very predictable and therefore easy to defend against. I would try to add a bit more creativity to your tactic. You could start with adding a Playmaker to your midfield or increase the team shape to a more fluid approach.
Looking at the squad comparison screens you are actually overachieving, especially before the form dropped, so the tactic seems to be solid. You probably just need to change a few bits to get good results again.

[FMWolf]

IMO, your roles are pretty balanced and make total sense, mainly the midfield trio. The only problem I see is that, even thought they're made to cover certain players, it can get a little messy when you're trying to build from the back: because your central midfielder is on attack he will quickly move up, your central midfielder on support will also be moved a bit far away and the only one offering a short pass option for your defenders is your midfielder on the left. Now, what I would do to try and minimize that is changing your MC-A to the left, and make your CM-S a DLP-S on the middle. This should facilitate the flow of your game by making your midfield more available to get the ball

[LCFCEaves31]

48 minutes ago, BadanieLuck said:

Do you have any PIs for your midfield trio?
At first glance, there is no real creator in the team (except maybe for the IF(s)). In general your team lacks a bit of creativity. Without using any playmakers, there is no player trying to play the killer ball to unlock defenses. Also the movement of 3 CMs without any PIs can become very predictable and therefore easy to defend against. I would try to add a bit more creativity to your tactic. You could start with adding a Playmaker to your midfield or increase the team shape to a more fluid approach.
Looking at the squad comparison screens you are actually overachieving, especially before the form dropped, so the tactic seems to be solid. You probably just need to change a few bits to get good results again.

Hi. I have a few PI's... CM-A has 'Shoot Less Often' as he had the tendency to shoot rather than pass to someone in space a lot of the time.
And both FB's have 'Dribble Less' & 'Fewer Risky Passes'.

I always wanted to have an AP in central midfield, but I fear the dribbling and creativity for that role, is lacking in my squad... so never did it.

47 minutes ago, FMWolf said:

IMO, your roles are pretty balanced and make total sense, mainly the midfield trio. The only problem I see is that, even thought they're made to cover certain players, it can get a little messy when you're trying to build from the back: because your central midfielder is on attack he will quickly move up, your central midfielder on support will also be moved a bit far away and the only one offering a short pass option for your defenders is your midfielder on the left. Now, what I would do to try and minimize that is changing your MC-A to the left, and make your CM-S a DLP-S on the middle. This should facilitate the flow of your game by making your midfield more available to get the ball

Ok will give that a try, makes sense... thanks.

I forgot to add, that tactics wise, I sometimes change from Counter to Control if I feel we should be the dominant team, or after 10-15 minutes I think we are too deep and not posing any real threat... that is about it!

[Armistice]

Well how do you concede your goals?

[summatsupeer]

I'd question why your using Work Ball Into box when you have one of the best crossing conversion rates in the league according to the report.  Plus you have a W-A and FB-A.  If you've reduced that source of chances whats your main plan because I can't see it from your roles & duties.

Defensively you aren't shielding the defenders with a midfielder, are they good enough to defend that space?  Do you typically concede via play through this area?  Looking at your average attributes it looks like your defenders are best at sitting deep and clearing it rather than winning a tackle in space.

[jorgvandervloed]

I think overall your set-up is very well balanced! You could consider changing your CM (S) to a DLP (S), to add a bit more creativity and defensive stability as this role will hold position but also spray passes around a bit more. That's really a choice and not necessary in my opinion...

You got promoted twice in three seasons so I'm guessing that your players aren't up to the league standards just yet. In combination with your over achievements during the fourth and fifth season, teams are sitting back more and try to exploit the space behind your defense. There is nothing wrong with the overall set-up, you just need to make small in-game changes to combat the new style of play your opponents are using. It would also help to improve your squad to unlock the opponents defense more often; easier said than done i know  

[LCFCEaves31]

4 hours ago, nightwalker22 said:

Well how do you concede your goals?

Mainly crosses... our inability to tackle wingers is a massive issue. Then when the ball goes into the box it always seems to be in the sweet spot, between our keeper and CB's.

3 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

I'd question why your using Work Ball Into box when you have one of the best crossing conversion rates in the league according to the report.  Plus you have a W-A and FB-A.  If you've reduced that source of chances what's your main plan because I can't see it from your roles & duties.

Defensively you aren't shielding the defenders with a midfielder, are they good enough to defend that space?  Do you typically concede via play through this area?  Looking at your average attributes it looks like your defenders are best at sitting deep and clearing it rather than winning a tackle in space.

Because we love a long shot... we have loads of shots, but too many from outside the box. We score a few goals from the wings, but what I cannot get right (whether it is the players I am not convinced) is we cannot score from a corner. Not sure if we have scored on all season.

The plan for most part was counter attacking, pinging ball into space at times for wingers to run onto and pull back or score themselves. If that doesn't happen, then keep the ball until we find a gap.

And I first tried playing with a DM but it never worked. They are too static sat in the middle and goals were flying in from crosses, as they never went out and helped close the ball. We then stopped once I had added Opp. Ins. before each game, but the wingers at this level walk past my full backs like they aren't there.

3 hours ago, jorgvandervloed said:

I think overall your set-up is very well balanced! You could consider changing your CM (S) to a DLP (S), to add a bit more creativity and defensive stability as this role will hold position but also spray passes around a bit more. That's really a choice and not necessary in my opinion...

You got promoted twice in three seasons so I'm guessing that your players aren't up to the league standards just yet. In combination with your over achievements during the fourth and fifth season, teams are sitting back more and try to exploit the space behind your defense. There is nothing wrong with the overall set-up, you just need to make small in-game changes to combat the new style of play your opponents are using. It would also help to improve your squad to unlock the opponents defense more often; easier said than done i know  

I have changed my CM to a DLP and it does seem to be helping with build up play, but I am still conceding far too many. All my centre backs are fairly slow, so can never push too high up.

Yeah, I still only have a league 1 squad IMO, trying to build with Cambridge has been difficult... 8500 capacity stadium and low reputation (even now), plus low transfer budget is making it difficult to get to the next level. I am relying on a couple of Prem loan players every season.

[Armistice]

Are those crosses happening after you attack, in a quick transition, or after they have sustained a patient attack?

[LCFCEaves31]

14 hours ago, nightwalker22 said:

Are those crosses happening after you attack, in a quick transition, or after they have sustained a patient attack?

Counter Attacks usually...

[LCFCEaves31]

One side note away from the topic... How do you increase your 'Youth Recruitment' status? Our's is currently 'Fairly Basic'. Over the years we have slowly upgraded our training and youth facilities and this year we upgraded junior coaching, but not sure how I can affect Youth Recruitment.

[herne79]

1 hour ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

One side note away from the topic... How do you increase your 'Youth Recruitment' status? Our's is currently 'Fairly Basic'. Over the years we have slowly upgraded our training and youth facilities and this year we upgraded junior coaching, but not sure how I can affect Youth Recruitment.

In the same manner, by asking the Board when the option to do so is available.

[LCFCEaves31]

The changes for a very short time, made a difference. The build up play was a bit better and although we always concede we were at least beating teams. However, last two games, yet again, have been awful. Lower half teams, both at home, both of which we took the lead, ended up coming away with 1 point. The defending is awful, and I just cannot find a balance with defence and attack. If I try and fix the defensive side with sticking a DM in then we lose something going forward or when defending on the wings. I have in games put both FB's on Defend because I am getting sick of the amount of goals coming from them. Even if my FB's are in a good position, they get skinned/don't even attempt a tackle and are taken out of the game.

Football is all about opinions and so is this game, I am just so confused with what to do now, because some people say 'Put a DM in' whereas before I was advised not to because they are very static and will not help in stopping crosses coming into the box. So... where does that leave me? I feel like the only choice I have at the moment is do I prefer seeing us let loads of goals in through the middle or out wide... feeling a little lost...

[Fosse]

I'd imagine when one of your attacks breaks down the centre of the pitch may be vulnerable as your CM S and CM A will be advanced whilst your holding player is on the right side of midfield. I would change anything yet but I'd advise watching through the games where you've been hit on the counter and click on the CM D to highlight him and then pay attention if he's actually protecting the midfield well enough.

 

Additionally if it's your fullbacks getting skinned then have a look at their attributes, do they have decent anticipation, bravery, aggression, concentration, positioning, and tackling attributes? Workrate and determination help as well.

[LCFCEaves31]

14 minutes ago, Fosse said:

I'd imagine when one of your attacks breaks down the centre of the pitch may be vulnerable as your CM S and CM A will be advanced whilst your holding player is on the right side of midfield. I would change anything yet but I'd advise watching through the games where you've been hit on the counter and click on the CM D to highlight him and then pay attention if he's actually protecting the midfield well enough.

 

Additionally if it's your fullbacks getting skinned then have a look at their attributes, do they have decent anticipation, bravery, aggression, concentration, positioning, and tackling attributes? Workrate and determination help as well.

Right Full Back in the order above - anti 12, brav 14, aggres 11, conce 12, pos 12, tackling 13, work 13, determination 12
Average Joe...

Left Back - anti 14, brav 11, aggres 11, conce 12, pos 12, tackling 13, work 13, determination 14
Pretty much the same...

[LCFCEaves31]

I am thinking of going with this and see what happens.

Changes - right FB changed from Attack to Support so he isn't caught out so high up the pitch
DM-d added from CM-d

I keep thinking of looking at different formations altogether, but this one suited my squad at the time of joining, has been working well for 3-4 seasons, and so have built a squad round it... to change now, would be a huge risk I think...

[Fosse]

That looks more balanced than your other system, it might be worth switching the duties for the winger and IF-S though because your winger will be the most aggressive player in the side but won't really have anyone to aim for consistently. 

I think you're right to persist with 4123 of it's worked so well, minor adjustments are usually better.

[LCFCEaves31]

2 minutes ago, Fosse said:

That looks more balanced than your other system, it might be worth switching the duties for the winger and IF-S though because your winger will be the most aggressive player in the side but won't really have anyone to aim for consistently. 

I think you're right to persist with 4123 of it's worked so well, minor adjustments are usually better.

Won the last 2 games of the season using this. I will test your theory next season, but it makes sense.

[LCFCEaves31]

On 6/10/2017 at 15:12, Fosse said:

That looks more balanced than your other system, it might be worth switching the duties for the winger and IF-S though because your winger will be the most aggressive player in the side but won't really have anyone to aim for consistently. 

I think you're right to persist with 4123 of it's worked so well, minor adjustments are usually better.

 

On 6/10/2017 at 15:15, LCFCEaves31 said:

Won the last 2 games of the season using this. I will test your theory next season, but it makes sense.

Tried making this change during preseason and it wasn't really working. My IF wasn't offering as much support in attack and my winger was wider rather than joining in the attack, surging into space etc. but I have asked my IF (back on support) to get further forward and all of sudden, there seems to be a lot more movement in possession,  a lot less static. The right back, I have put back on FB-a, which again has helped. I know it is only preseason, and I have been fooled before by results/performances at this stage, so will wait until the season starts before i pass judgement... 

[LCFCEaves31]

On ‎12‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 12:32, LCFCEaves31 said:

 

Tried making this change during preseason and it wasn't really working. My IF wasn't offering as much support in attack and my winger was wider rather than joining in the attack, surging into space etc. but I have asked my IF (back on support) to get further forward and all of sudden, there seems to be a lot more movement in possession,  a lot less static. The right back, I have put back on FB-a, which again has helped. I know it is only preseason, and I have been fooled before by results/performances at this stage, so will wait until the season starts before i pass judgement... 

Well we won the first 2 league games, but then played away at Wigan, who aren't great, normally in a relegation dog fight every year, and we were bloody awful! 

We lacked an attacking threat most of the game (in fact only having one shot on target), but just didn't pass or move off the ball well at all, never any fluidity to us or our play. Strange, because that was the complete opposite in the previous two games. Anyway, just won a game in the league cup to same level opposition, albeit an 80th minute winner, a win is a win... plus I made 10 changes to starting line up. 

I am going to go through another 5 games and see what the results are. One thing that seems ever increasingly apparent, is that my players aren't really good enough, I have no money to bring them in (new stadium on the way) and players who will improve us on loan of via free transfer tend to opt for higher reputation clubs. Is that being too simplistic though? I am blaming my tools? Or do I just need to except that, you can only do so much with a lesser group of players? Build a be patient...? Cambridge are going places, I mean two promotions in three seasons isn't bad, and now a new stadium, as mentioned above, is being built (a whopping 16,000 seater) and the clubs reputation is slowly increasing. Would anyone expect to seriously win every game and not have 'off days' and just keep winning every game a win the Champions League with a non-league side in 6 seasons??

I do wonder if at times, I am being unrealistic, and a sore loser! 

[Fosse]

You're clearly on the right track, if overachieve as you have sometimes it takes a few seasons to really catch up in terms  of player ability to the level that you're playing at and no matter what you're doing tactically it can be difficult if your players are more suited to the leagues below.

[summatsupeer]

All you can do is put the players in the best possible position, if they then don't win the tackle/header or can't thread a pass through or get there clear chance shot on target thats down to the players quality.  If you've put them in a situation they' not good at then you can't really blame the player.

I think there's a big gap between the lower leagues and working your way up to then competing in the premiership, especially for the top spots when they're throwing money around and buying the worlds best players.  Use your stability to your advantage.  Try and pick up deals like free transfers, transfer listed players or just loan players.  They chop and change managers who then bring in there own players and sell off players they aren't using, you just need to find the ones willing to come to little old Cambridge .

[LCFCEaves31]

6 hours ago, Fosse said:

You're clearly on the right track, if overachieve as you have sometimes it takes a few seasons to really catch up in terms  of player ability to the level that you're playing at and no matter what you're doing tactically it can be difficult if your players are more suited to the leagues below.

I hope so. It has taken me a lot longer to grasp this FM than previous (I never bought FM16, which might explain why), and knowing that my players are mostly league 1 at best gives me a bit of belief that its not ALL down to me and my tactics.

1 hour ago, summatsupeer said:

All you can do is put the players in the best possible position, if they then don't win the tackle/header or can't thread a pass through or get there clear chance shot on target thats down to the players quality.  If you've put them in a situation they' not good at then you can't really blame the player.

I think there's a big gap between the lower leagues and working your way up to then competing in the premiership, especially for the top spots when they're throwing money around and buying the worlds best players.  Use your stability to your advantage.  Try and pick up deals like free transfers, transfer listed players or just loan players.  They chop and change managers who then bring in there own players and sell off players they aren't using, you just need to find the ones willing to come to little old Cambridge .

Yep. A long way away at present, but determined to go from League 2 to Prem with one club, never done it before, always made my way there via jumping ship!

[LCFCEaves31]

Hi. I think I should probably just live in the 'Stupid Questions' thread, but as this is open and my thread title is rather vague, I will try and get answers in here as you've been very helpful so far.

Wing Backs... never in all my FM years have I played with wing backs... they scare me. I have always used Full Backs for the simple reason as that's what I grew up with playing and watching football. I was a full back myself, because while I offered very little going forward, I could read the game and position myself well with a back four. Basically a Sunday league version of Danny Simpson! Anyway, the descriptions SI have given for a lot of roles and tactics I have tended to ignore recently and gone with Mr BustTheNet... but I am struggling to see the major differences from Wing backs to Full Backs in FM and within the match engine. You can essentially set a Wing back to be on Defend, Support, Attack, just like full backs, but then there are Complete Wing Backs which basically seems to ask a player to run up and down all day and essentially be just as good a winger as you are full back...? Am I on the right path with that? 

A real simplistic description defining the two within a game would be handy, but also a little more detail so I can fully understand it and what formations they work best in. I am not sure they would suit my current 4-1-2-2-1 Tactic (above screenshot) as I am playing a winger on Attack on the left...

I should really test in the match engine, I know, but I do not want to go make a colossal mistake with my save at present...

[Fosse]

You could always create a save on FM touch to have a play around with tactics.

There isn't a lot of difference between FBs and WBs just a few PIs

[LCFCEaves31]

31 minutes ago, Fosse said:

You could always create a save on FM touch to have a play around with tactics.

There isn't a lot of difference between FBs and WBs just a few PIs

Ok, will try that, cheers.

Won another couple of games in my league campaign so far, so thanks again for the advice, knew there was something missing slightly, and I know I can still be better, but as long as I know I am at least on the right track, I am happy.

[summatsupeer]

1 hour ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

...

You can essentially set a Wing back to be on Defend, Support, Attack, just like full backs, but then there are Complete Wing Backs which basically seems to ask a player to run up and down all day and essentially be just as good a winger as you are full back...? Am I on the right path with that? 

...

The obvious things are the instructional differences.  If giving generic explanation i'd say a FB is more cross focused whilst WB has more run (with or without ball) focus.  FB-D and WB-D have the same instructions but I think all WB's have a slightly higher mentality than a FB on the same duty, I think this is shown via the position on the tactic grid.

Complete wingbacks get a few extra instructions, the main one being roam from position which allows him greater freedom of movement so cover is even more important.

[LCFCEaves31]

6 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

The obvious things are the instructional differences.  If giving generic explanation i'd say a FB is more cross focused whilst WB has more run (with or without ball) focus.  FB-D and WB-D have the same instructions but I think all WB's have a slightly higher mentality than a FB on the same duty, I think this is shown via the position on the tactic grid.

Complete wingbacks get a few extra instructions, the main one being roam from position which allows him greater freedom of movement so cover is even more important.

Ok that makes sense

[LCFCEaves31]

Argghh!! Consistency! Played two games last night, won them both, Load it up tonight, lost them both, looking pants again like we did against Wigan 4 matches ago (insert sad/confused/angry emoji's)

[LCFCEaves31]

Hello FM'ers,

(First thing, the screenshot below is old , it's just for team shape/roles purposes, only role change was CF s to DLF s. Couldn't get CF to work, just wandered around doing his own thing and not contribute enough to build up)

Just need a little more help on something. I am going through similar experiences every season, and I just wondered what people did specifically, if anything, when this occurs (for which some I know it doesn't as they adapt from game to game).

One thing I have found with switching from FM15 to FM17 is the streaks I go on. In my 3rd season in the Championship and I still have a similar squad to what I posted earlier, bit thin on the ground in terms of numbers and quality and I think we have been over-achieving. At one point, we were even top for a couple of games, but that has now faded into 3rd, with a run of 5 games, no wins, 2 draws and 3 defeats. The streak before that was 4 wins on the bounce, 6 wins in 8 games in total in that run. 

After a good run, and being in the top 2 I know I am going to get teams change their approach, but it how to identify that watching the game, and then what to do after you think you have identified it. 

Some matches, we have had lots of chances, and just haven't had the quality of player to put it away, but that isn't obviously always the case, some times we just do not compete and I am not understanding or tactically adapting.

So... adapting... how much adapting do people do? And do people get by with small tweaks each game, every 5 games, once a season? What are the most simplistic changes people make? For example, a team all of sudden doesn't become dominated and pushed back by me playing on the front foot in the previous matches, using control and fluid (ignore the screenshot below, it is just for team shape and roles), the opposition giving up possession as my front 3 and 2 central mids push up and press. It then wasn't happening in the next game, so I thought, maybe it is a one off... so went into the 2nd game and drew 1-1 but again, we were poor, very lucky to get a point. So in the third game, I thought I would TRY and be logical, but keep things simple. I had Newcastle at home, who were on a 5 game winning streak and really shouldn't have been able to keep hold of the players they had, but have somehow managed it... their quality was superior really to mine. So (and this has worked in the past, perhaps by fluke!) I changed from Control to Counter... they had quick strikers and wingers, but were both (I think) Inside Forwards... so I thought not only would counter make us narrower and more congested for their IF's, but also drop us back a bit to counteract their pace. We could draw them out and hope to hit on the counter... 0-0 at half-time! I thought I had become Mourinho and to be honest, we were creating the better chances, just couldn't stick one away. I told my players at half-time to keep up the good work... We ended up losing 2-0, without creating hardly anything in the 2nd half. They pushed us back like the first half, but unlike the first half, we couldn't find a pass, they were it appeared pressing us high up the park and we were treating the ball like a 'hot potato'. 
I tried dropping us a little deeper to see if that would help us play our way out better, it didn't. I then thought I would try and push up against the press and perhaps leaving us more open but we needed to score, so changed back to Control. That didn't work either. I just couldn't get the ball/keep hold of it and their centre mids dominated midfield (using same formation as me). The next couple of games went the same way, even though they were not quite as superior in quality. I then went on this run of 5 games and I am concerned my first half of season will be wasted if we don't turn things around soon. 

I know there is a lot of rambling from me, i just wanted to try and get as much down as possible and hope that I might be able to find some advice, but understand there are hundreds/thousands of variables and I may not have given anywhere near enough indicators as to what is happening in my save. 

 

[LCFCEaves31]

On ‎14‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 20:37, LCFCEaves31 said:

Argghh!! Consistency! Played two games last night, won them both, Load it up tonight, lost them both, looking pants again like we did against Wigan 4 matches ago (insert sad/confused/angry emoji's)

This is my FM17 life. I cannot escape it...

[LCFCEaves31]

I am now about to make myself look stupid, and it has been said by hundreds before... after posting on other posts and even my own, about 'stick with it mate, you will get it in the end' and 'its your tactics, you'll get the hang of it by using peoples help on here'... I just cannot play FM17. I find it far to difficult to read/understand matches and if certain scenario's occur, I have absolutely no idea what to do.

My form goes from one extreme to the other, no consistency whatsoever. I was doing so well, top of league in fact (if only for a couple of games) but with the season nearing a close, absolutely diabolical form has set in, and I cannot do anything about it. The last game you will see, which I just finished, we got hammered by a team near the relegation zone. Two quick players and two quick wingers, with 6 players staying back at all times, and no matter what I tried, nothing worked.
In my head, what makes sense, is to drop back against quick forwards... this then created two more problems...One, was it gave their wingers loads of time and space to run at my full backs and cross balls into the middle for fun. Conceded 3 goals like it. Second, they then became a little more adventurous and played around my back four and midfield because we were so deep... So then what?! Push high up again only to allow their pacey wingers in behind and score that way? I just have no idea, and I feel that playing this since January, with still not much of an idea of HOW to play this and what you need to do to adapt from game to game, I might as well just give it up.

Their final goal, I was left so deflated... again, because I cannot understand why it happened. My right sided FB came inside from his position to close their striker, when I had a DM and CB already dealing with it?! Why?! So he left a bucket of space out wide, and their winger had all the time in the world when he received the ball to pick out a striker to tap in from 6 yards. I think all their goals were inside the Penalty box, including a penalty.

I then came to realisation that the last 4 results where I picked up 1 point, have all been against teams in the bottom half. The 2-2 draw at Coventry (23rd pos) was thanks to a 91st minute equaliser otherwise we would have lost that as well.

I really struggle to not fall into a losing streaks when 1 or 2 defeats happen, and find it even more difficult to get any joy when trying to make changes in during matches. If the game isn't going my way from the first 20-30 minutes, it is rare anything I say or do makes a difference. I don't have a great squad, granted, so we are probably over-achieving, but what I cannot accept is the streaks of bad/awful performances.

I have had a lot of help on here which I am thankful for, and I would never have taken Cambridge from League 2 to the Championship in three seasons if I hadn't have come on here, but I feel as though this versions, has just got so many things happening tactically, I cannot keep up.  

And I think your post above, regarding making tweaks every game... that's my issue and I am happy to admit it. I don't know what tweaks to make, because so far, they just makes things worse or have no affect.

[LCFCEaves31]

10 hours ago, D_LO_ said:

I'm going through a phase of liking bullets points...

• You have 4 wins in 15 away from home there, have you considered a more defensive variation of your current formation, i.e. 4-1-4-1? Sometimes you do need flexibility in your formation/tactic as the AI adapts
• What's the attributes like for your RB, I'm thinking of specifically aggression or positioning or were opp. instructions in play?
• Are you closing down the wide players? (opp. instructions) Are your CMs heping your full-backs when the advanced wide-men are forward? (PIs) Presumably your strength is centrally, I would personally consider funneling of opposition inside, i.e. 'defensive traps' you may have seen mentioned here before (opp. instructions would best achieve this I feel) 
• Given the advanced players, playing deep is going to stretch your team and create space for the opposition as well as yourself, more fluid shapes may help keep things more compact with a deeper D line. Have you considered this if you aren't keen on higher or normal lines?

I suspect you were over-achieving so 4th is probably decent or maybe even good in the context of the league but given your player's deficiencies these are now being compounded by the AI 'adapting'/treating you with more respect.

Tactically it's solid and I'd go as far to say I quite like it, the solid base behind the high block you could employ, the best of both worlds to an extent.

But possibly trumping everything could be what hasn't been talked about that much before, your players and their attributes, given the league is starting to wise up to you (seemingly) Do you have the players for a deep D line? Heading and positioning looks questionable from post #1. Your midfield looks like it lacks stamina, yet with advanced wide-men they need to get across to help the flanks... Is their tackling up to scratch to protect the defence anyway? I appreciate you can't fix all this over-night but you should be working towards a clear idea of the characteristics you want in your squad and the needs of the different departments, hopefully you are but given I've seen very little specifics mentioned in regard to this hugely important aspect of the game is the question jusitifable? Work-rate, determination and bravery have been mentioned a lot on the forum thanks to Rashidi's guides because they are key attributes straight off the bat most would want across the board and more so as an under-dog but especially in your centre-midfield and full-backs who have such a strong responsibility to the defensive aspect of your tactic, simply are your players good enough now the AI has changed the landscape? 

 

I'm not sure you're continuing but presumably you were looking for, at least, a different perspective (and given the mods don't like rants, lets go with that anyway  ) Good luck with whatever you decide. 

 

Hello

I hope it doesn't come across like a rant, because I freely admit I am not getting this years version, like I have previous. Missing out FM16 might help explain the issues I am having, I don't know. FM15 to 17 seems to keep catching me out.

I am going to give both your posts a proper read in the mean time and give it a try. I am glad that more than one person has said the formation is solid, so at least I am on roughly the right path...

[LCFCEaves31]

This was the actual and most recently used tactic for most of my games... very little has changed from the old image back in this thread...

[LCFCEaves31]

And 4-1-4-1 like @D_LO_ advised.

Currently, with CM s and WM s on the right and CM a and W a on the left, it looks a little unbalanced, so swap the CM's around maybe? Even though it is essentially the same as my preferred tactic above?

[LCFCEaves31]

And this is something radical to me, but something I was wanting to try for a long time, something more narrow and more than one striker! 
However, it could be a complete mess tactically, so would be good to get feedback on it. I have used it twice, won one and lost one (although the opposition had one shot from us giving it away and scored... we were unlucky), but I was too scared to continue with it... I don't know why, I seem to have a comfort zone on FM and it is 4-1-2-2-1...

[LCFCEaves31]

On 6/30/2017 at 15:47, D_LO_ said:

Yeah again I agree with any positive comments re. this formation. I would be extra wary of the left side given the attacking duties ahead but I can understand why you have gone this way with the IF possibly inferring with a CMa on the other side possibly. Most people want to show an element of ambition so sometimes you have to accept the trade off. A couple of minor things I might consider with this set-up, making the IFa and then possibly reel back the winger to Ws, so he might try to help defensively at least (when going for it however I'd have both on attack duties) I'd definitely consider a defensive duty for your LB. 

The key things to consider now, for me are: 

• TI's (what kind of identity do you want?)
• Mentality/Shape
• Opp. instructions
• Player attributes

Yeah agree on the CM situation, with the WM you can try and give the LB support now. Defensively it's much more solid. I'd think about the WM and what you want from him, you can of course retain the IF feel with PIs. I tend to favour fluid shapes with lone striker systems personally so another consideration. The best thing to do would be monitor his isolation on a game-by-game basis.

Your left-hand side makes me nervous again but if you're getting positive results from it, it might be worth pursuing especially if the brand of football is most enjoyable (I find this is the most important thing, I've had good results with systems which aren't particularly exciting and it does get boring) The CMa's I've found this year are particularly effective and when off-set to one side even more so by naturally finding channels, so I'm reluctant to advise against it. Personally I think I'd go for solid option either side of the midfield three though as again the weakness of this formation is the wide areas. At a push the CMa could be moved to the centre although there's also the need of creativity from the centre. So I'd be keen to use a play-maker, as this would be a support role however you have more flexibility of where to put him in my opinion (with revised closing down instructions if wider) 

Thanks for your perseverance with me! 

Regarding your comment on the IF on A, I did try this a few weeks ago, when someone else in here advised to try, but I found it made him a little isolated... wasn't getting on the ball as much and cutting inside to allow my FB to overlap. So instead I changed him back to Support and added PI of 'Get Further Forward'. It seemed to work (but I cannot remember if I use it still!)

TI's - The only success I have had consistently on this save and FM17 in general regarding TI's... is by not having any! I feel as though starting with a fairly basic/blank canvas helps novices like me, and just add one or two during games. Your advice on play into space if they are playing a high line and changing DLF to AF certainly seems to work well. My team ultimately seems to work much better playing counter attacking football than possession based. Our first touch, passing, and decision rating are amonsgt the worst in the league on average... not really possession tactic material.

Mentality/Shape - as above really, countering seems to be way ahead for this team... (Mentality being about risk right?) I feel the less risk these players take, the better because of the above poor ratings... Shape - I have always been a flexible man (not literally) (as posted above in the screenshot) because I was never 100% sure what it meant! But having spent time on here and watching some BustTheNet videos, I decided Fluid would work best, which I have since changed to... I kept finding teams playing in-between the lines on Flexible or Structured and also my front 3 isolated. With Fluid they seemed to drop a little closer to the rest of the team in an attempt to join in... Only thing is, I am now not really sure why or when you would use Structured or Heavily Structured ??

Opp. Instructions - This is the interesting one... I found early on with FM17 that crosses into the box created a hell of a lot goals/chances and became frustrated by the amount. So came on the forum and asked how it can be stopped... closing down the wingers who have good crossing would be a good start... easy tackling on players who can dribble or burn rubber, so my players don't dive in and let them have all the time in the world to pick a pass. Show them onto weaker foot also... 
So I did this in League 2 and League 1 and it worked a treat... but at this level, nearly every team I face has a player who has high dribbling, or more often than not, pace and acc. of 16-19! Sometimes they have dribbling, crossing and quickness all in the high teens and am really not sure how to stop them.

Player Attributes - As mentioned, Passing, Decision Making and also First Touch are poor in comparison to the rest of the league. That has improved slightly, based on just one signing... Riayd Boudebouz... No idea how I managed that, 32 years of age obviously has something to do with it, but he is still quality! Anyway, back on point, I don't really get to pick and chose players due to reputation/status of the club and our non-existent budget so I do not get great technical players come along very often, but insist on having decent determination, work rate, team work and 10+ on all physical attributes... 

[LCFCEaves31]

The season ended well, although we lost on pens in the playoffs, that is a lottery. Won 5 from last 7.

New season, first game, got revenge on Derby who defeated us in the playoffs, away 2-0. The advice above really helped, especially after the first goal as they pushed up even higher, so passing into space and changing striker to advanced forward paid off for the 2nd !

Then we won the next game, rather unconvincingly in league cup 1-0, but swapped whole team around.

Since then our form reads - L, L, D, L ... I'm demoralised, cannot handle it anymore. 3 of 4 goals we have conceded are from a penalty, a crap back pass, and a 35 yard screamer. Poor old me now coming up... but we never get crappy back passes in our favour, only against, hardly ever get penalties and my players are smashing the ball wide from 6-10 yards out.

So my tactic is solid, so I am lead to believe and none of those goals come from my slightly exposed/attacking left hand side. I honestly don't know where to go with now...

[Cuenca Guy]

6 hours ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

The season ended well, although we lost on pens in the playoffs, that is a lottery. Won 5 from last 7.

New season, first game, got revenge on Derby who defeated us in the playoffs, away 2-0. The advice above really helped, especially after the first goal as they pushed up even higher, so passing into space and changing striker to advanced forward paid off for the 2nd !

Then we won the next game, rather unconvincingly in league cup 1-0, but swapped whole team around.

Since then our form reads - L, L, D, L ... I'm demoralised, cannot handle it anymore. 3 of 4 goals we have conceded are from a penalty, a crap back pass, and a 35 yard screamer. Poor old me now coming up... but we never get crappy back passes in our favour, only against, hardly ever get penalties and my players are smashing the ball wide from 6-10 yards out.

So my tactic is solid, so I am lead to believe and none of those goals come from my slightly exposed/attacking left hand side. I honestly don't know where to go with now...

If you have one point from four games and have conceded only four goals in that time, you need to start scoring. I use a Mourinho 4-3-3 (4-1-2-2-1) with two IF(a) and a DLF(s) or more recently a F9. It looks very similar to your version from the Friday post except for the role variations on the wings and an AP and BBM in the middle. We play Control/Flexible with some PIs to close down more and tackle harder for the front 5 and some that have my back 5 play a little safer. I use a handful of TIs as well depending on the game and situation and we move back to Standard, Counter, and occasionally Defensive very late in games protecting a lead. This is a tactic I've adapted from a Rashidi version. I played on Attacking last season, but this year we're on Control as we used to play on Structured, and I find Control/Flexible to be reasonably attacking. The biggest change besides that this year is that I've been dropping my defensive line back a little, and we haven't been giving up goals on the counter very much since then.

The tactic (along with players, motivating, etc.) has won us back-to-back promotions to League 2 where we currently sit 2nd with 21 points after 11 games. Our first season we scored 55 goals and allowed 19 in the Conference North playing Counter, Standard, and Control. The next season we struggled at first and switched to Attacking and ended up scoring 86 goals and allowing 53. In those back-to-back years, we allowed the fewest goals in the Conference North and then scored the most in the Conference National. This season, we've scored 27 and allowed 17, but we're still scoring pretty well and giving up a lot less since I've started dropping the defense when we're on Control. We went away to top-of-the-table Notts County who had scored 9 and allowed 0 through 9 games and won 3-1. It's a tactic designed to be pretty solid at the back (at least at more reasonable mentalities than Attacking), but I've found it to be quite prolific going forward as well.

I find it a thoroughly sufficient tactic, but it requires the right players, and I crack the whip a lot to keep them motivated. The first season I had a very solid squad, but the last two seasons we've been big overachievers. Last year, our only two attributes above average for our outfield players was flair (around 9th) and determination (2nd in the league...the team with the highest determination finished two points behind us in 2nd). This year, our only above-average attribute is flair, which is 7th. I push my players a lot using touchline team talks demanding more quite often when they aren't performing up to snuff.

Does any of that help you? I have no idea, but I thought I'd share my experiences with a similar tactic. We did often find it difficult to score without having the two IF(a) and being on a high mentality. For the last season or so, we've been outscoring teams and trying to figure out how to not allow a pile of goals. I've made some slight tweaks here and there that might have helped. I'm not sure how long it will last, but we'll keep running with it while it does. Good luck!

[LCFCEaves31]

We started scoring, I haven't changed anything, I just thought I would let it run and see if anything changed and it did... this is what I mean about this version and me not getting it anymore. I don't understand why there are such differences in the performances. We just went on a 5 game run of 4 wins and 1 draw... so what happens when we go play 18th and 23rd in the league...??? draw 1-1 and lose 2-0... utter crap in both games, and both played 442. This formation, I hate with a passion at the moment, because it doesn't seem to matter whether the opposition have slow or quick wingers, poor or good frontmen, the same thing happens all the time, even with OI's of close down and show onto weaker foot. The wingers are never shown onto their weaker foot and ping a ball across the box and if one of my players don't score an own goal, one of their strikers does. It is like the FB's and CB's forget how to defend... Marking goes out the window. I have never conceded so many goals from crosses on FM until this version, I just cannot do anything about it.

[LCFCEaves31]

11 hours ago, D_LO_ said:

You still need to tweak from game to game. Versus weaker teams the onus may be on you/they don't allow much space for you offensively (and inevitably punish you with their rare attacks, be it from a set piece or 30 yard screamer, we've all been there...) I look at these instances as an offensive problem, defensively you can't keep out everything nor legislate for 'lucky' moments like this. 

I would strongly encourage you to think about defensive lines and mentality as a starting point with this. 

Your point regarding defensive minded teams... I have tried various things. I will play a lot wider, try and stretch them that way or sometimes i will drop deeper and try and draw them out... neither seems to work and players begin shooting from 30 yards or from poor angles. I try and speed up the tempo giving the opposition less time to settle into their defensive shape, but this sees us give the ball away a lot more. I am really lacking ideas on how to break teams down, but also find some consistency. I am not sure if I would have the same issues I am having now, managing a team of superstars and perhaps unfairly judging myself on a group of players who are below average for the league that I am in, and in reality, play off places are pretty good... but it is the same things that keep happening... Go on a good run 4-5 games, then lose to a poor team and proceed to go on a run of 4-5 bad defeats/draws. Then go back on a run of 4-5 games of gaining points and the cycle continues. 

I have a lot of respect for the people out there who are having continued and consistent success (except the people who know how to exploit the match engine, that's just cheating...)

[Armistice]

^ That will happen with any top side you manage, thing is only a few people know the 'secret' of breaking sides down and only a few showed it (Rashidi).

[LCFCEaves31]

17 hours ago, D_LO_ said:

Are you watching games on at least comprehensive? You really need to be seeing what's going on in detail. You can get a feel of when changes are needed if you keep hitting a wall or the opposition is on top. Player ratings, condition, body language, action zones, it's there to help are you paying attention/responding to this?

It's also hard to believe that your changes never have an effect. 

It's difficult not to be general or repeat myself as we're a bit blind here too but a few things fresh from my current save (in Southern Premier, we're now predicted 9th from originally 20th which itself is a useful guide)

• I up mentality at home, usually to control
• I've lowered mentality when losing, I've also increased it. The type of attacks we're creating (if any) rushed long shots or whether the opposition is on top can all dictate which way I go. Work into box has been frequently selected too with same idea in mind. 
• I would lower d line versus stubborn defensive teams (I would identify this early in game or even pre-game in opposition analysis of previous games. Odds table could help too) NB: IF I had a quick striker (I currently implement a target-man type who is slow so it's pointless with him, so it's usually left for the sub, to exploit the space. This also effects the type of crosses I employ) 
• I usually play on counter away versus better teams, standard where I feel I have a chance of a win 
• I play 4-5-1 as there's a lot of 4-4-2s to face, so I encourage hard tackling and showing all opposition wide-men on to weaker foot (NB: no closing down) I'm going to out-number them in the middle so let them have it there. Identify strengths of formations and apply logically, you just need a rudimentary knowledge of football tactics here to be able to apply this. I might even drop someone into DM versus 4-4-2 diamond and the wide areas become less of a concern naturally versus this formation. Adapt opp. instructions although a default template makes life easier if you consistently face certain formations. 
• I concede a fair amount of my goals outside of the area between my defence and midfield but I rarely use a DM (see above) but this is the 'space weakeness' of my formation so I accept it's going to happen, they need to be great strikes from there (of which there's probably been about 10 by November which is actually frustrating and I'd argue unrealistic in the Southern Prem. but nonetheless with an overall good defensive record why change something which is working well on the whole, my expectations are realistic, it's a balancing act) 
• Prime candidates for mentality increases = which ever full-back starts WBs - which ever wide midfielder starts WMs, wide men might even go up a strata (you could even drop mid-game for defensive solidity/ increase your offensive space, are they running into cul-de-sacs frequently?) - might change DLF into a poacher, with amended TIs- might change DLP into another CMa  (2 CMas is a desperate move but the role is highly effective for me and 2 has had the desired effect)

 

I'm not sure where else this thread can go from this point tbh and I'm sure there's some repetition. A lot of areas have been suggested for you to look at and you'd be doing extremely well to have looked into every one in the depth required already... I think you're just going to need to keep plugging away watching and analysing games in detail, using the tools provided to help you whilst bearing in mind your player's, formation and opposition's strengths and weaknesses and adapting accordingly. Granted some tactical knowledge prior (plenty of resources around) helps but it's a learning curve. 

Try not to get fixated on the streaks as it will effect your enjoyment and look at the bigger picture which is that you're still over-achieving.

 

P.S. forgot morale, stay positive/tell them they're unlucky in talks when on a negative run and morale is poor. I find this is a big contributor to streaks. Use the interaction menu and praise conduct/form/training for those with low morale (potentially an exploit but why else is it in the game? I had to use it when I accidentally dropped someone into U23s) 

 

Thanks for coming back to me again.

I watch all games on Comprehensive. In fact up until this version, I used to watch every match in full... FM15 I had 4 seasons with Lecce and don't think I missed a second... That needed to change though, because it was taking me far to long to get through a season, and I also found myself trying to make a tactical adjustment every single time something didn't come off. What I learnt through some of the BustTheNet videos, is obviously every player is different... some will suit roles better than others, and just because your tactic works in principal or has done for a long time, unless you bring in someone very similar, the results may vary.

Stats/Analysis - I always found myself drowning in the analysis, and rather hoped my Ass man and scouts etc. would provide me easy to understand snippets and help me apply it before and during matches. However, I really don't find that to be the case and they often suggest I make strange decisions (or constantly tell me to pick 442 Structured/Counter, no matter who I am playing).

If there is an idiots guide to FM analysis, what it means, how it can help and most importantly how to make changes and apply it, that would be great to read... The amount of people who I have seen don't use any of it though and instead just now how to manipulate the match engine instead or memorises  important attributes for each position, role and duty astounds me. 

One thing I read the other day, which I think could be an issue for my Cambridge side, is Determination. I always look for it when signing new players, but because I don't have much choice in who will sign for me, it sometimes gets forgotten... the determination in my attacking players isn't fantastic, and when we go a goal down, we often struggle to pick back up... Liam Kelly (determination 5) my AM especially, just seems to go missing and he is key to us getting a good result. I think player selection needs a re-think from myself also. I think a lot of what I am doing needs a re-think.

On team talks, if you go on a good run of 5-6 games, what is the advice here? Keep telling them they are amazing, even if the performance wasn't great? Or tell them they were lucky/got away with it? I am fearful of being too nice...

[LCFCEaves31]

On 7/6/2017 at 15:25, D_LO_ said:

In terms of analysis it doesn't need to be much more than a 5-10min look.

In-game is fairly straight forward - body language (watch team talks especially) match ratings (sometimes its the player and not the system) action zones (big, big one for me, if the swing in midfield control is with the AI for too long then I need to do something)  focus of attacks (I've made full-backs defensive or reduced the mentality ahead if I see a particular flank being targeted)  Now because I'm currently playing 4-5-1 I've near enough completely left shape a lone. My striker is also very slow (5 for acceleration) and defensively we've performed above what I could hope so over-committing is not a massive problem therefore I'm confident I need to retain fluid as naturally the problem with my formation is scoring and getting support to the lone striker. Only using three stratas and the added space between lines further compounds all of this. However with other formations I would look at the analysis and the shape of my team with and without the ball a lot more. Look at your formation, is the striker too isolated? Whilst I would also have kept more of an eye on the opposition shape. After a while you'll soon see the difference between fluid shapes (compact) structured and wider tactics, just takes a bit of experience and points of reference. You can then respond if necessary (I believe I talked more about this above)  Keep an eye on passing combinations and quality of shots too, beyond that there's not much else I do in terms of analysis in game.

Pre-game I might watch recent games by opposition. Maybe some of the basic analysis I described already. I always pay attention to their formation though and more specifically which flank is more offensive (pre-match tactics is the best screen as you can see if a player is more advanced than on the other side too, this is one of my pre-game rituals, identifying this before team selection, screen below to show what I mean, although ironically I am changing to a diamond for this game as Merthyr was the only team to beat me until my recent run ended and you can see they mirror my formation) However usually I completely flip my team if on a rare occasion the left is more offensive than the usual right, i.e. CMa moves to right channel, Wa moves to right, my wing-back will move to the left. I do this to nullify and exploit. 

 

I'm very happy to hear you talking about attributes more, as I said above, I think this could be a bigger issue than you appreciate  and whilst I also appreciate your pool of players is limited determination is an absolute key one. I haven't signed anyone without decent determination (apart from my goal-keeper who is 2) I've turned away far, far better players because determination was low. They go straight out at the first hurdle.  My best LM has 5 for determination, which I didn't think was a disaster for the division below Conf. South but he's been poor and I've dropped him to the B team  which just reiterates the point for me. As you say they go missing when the proverbial hits the fan.  Also ignore stars and just focus on the attributes you need, the level of staff and context within your squad dictates this which makes its relevance debatable, my best defender is one and half stars though.  I'm increasingly looking at consistency and big match performance in scout reports too. 

 

At home I'm less generous, if it's a tight win 1-0 or 2-0 or against someone we should be beating then warning against complacency is a very popular one for me. Just blew an 18 match unbeaten run and I used this talk a lot as morale was really high for a dangerously long time.  I give credit if the away win is by more than one goal every time (reluctantly) When morale is high then you have more options and can be meaner so don't be afraid of it (I'm a lot more critical at half-time although try not to let negatively creep into the next match unless it's a game we should have won) but you're right this is when complacency will kick in hence why I use that talk a lot. 

Thanks again for all the advice! The attributes part is something i have definitely neglected in the past and wasn't until this version where I have realised just how important they are, including player traits and personality. I also didn't realise just how much of a good impact good tutoring can be. It has propelled some of my youth players to first team members within a year.

Once I read this, I decided to have a look round here again and see if anything stood out to help improve my decision making as well as what I have picked up in here. I am sometimes better seeing things visually and when I saw Herne's thread 'A Tactical Journey' and it contained YouTube videos, I thought I was worth a read... Well it was well worth it. Again, picked up a lot and also noticed some errors in what I have been doing, but habits I had picked up since playing FM09. 

Along with his thread and your help in here, I seem to be having improved results (yes I know, I have been here before). I am annoyed at the amount of time it has taken myself to understand more about what the hell is happening in these games nowadays, and although I don't think SI's in game help and descriptions offer much, I think breaking down the walls from old FM's has been my biggest issue... and probably other peoples problems as well. Us novices think all we are buying each time is a data base update rather than a new game. 

Anyway, thanks again, lets hope I can really kick on this time...