2nd Season Advice

[Thunder88]

Before i explain,i just want to say that although i'm suffering the second season syndrome i am in no way here to rant and slag this game off...i'm actually here for advice and help please..

I am managing Inter and i am halfway through my second season,18 games played where i am a very disappointing 10th and i'm out of the Champions League.

My first season was a huge success,i finished 3rd in the league and also won the Italian Cup and the Europa League.

I played with a 4-3-1-2 formation - Control and flexible with no instructions unless i needed to in a game

....................................GK-D.............................

WB-A..............CD-D...........CD-D............WB-A

..................BBM........DLP-D......BBM..........

...................................AP-S..........................

....................AF-A......................F9-S....................

Joao Mario was my deep playmaker and was pulling the strings,feeding the midfield box to box midfielders,they linked perectly with my AP who was Ever Banega,who played behind the lethal Mauro Icardi..

It all worked like a dream and i dominated most teams apart from Juventus who ended the season as Italian and European Champions....i even beat Man Utd in the Europa Semi Final,then beat Barcelona in the final (they finished 3rd in their champions league group)

Mauro Icardi finished as the european golden boot winner with 43 goals in 51 appearances..

I was playing free flowing football and scoring for fun..

 

Fast forward to the 2nd seasonand i am the complete opposite,if you just think of Liverpool this season...their form at the beginning of the season was my first season,and their form towards the end is my second season..

Teams defend deeper and more compact which is understandable,so these teams i were beating 4,5 or even 6-0 i am now drawing 0-0 or losing by the odd goal on the counter or by set piece..After 18 league games my top scorer is Joao Mario with 5 goals...my lethal and feared striker Mauro Icardi has 3....in contrast Higuain of Juventus has 21 goals in 16 appearances and Juventus are 5 points clear with 2 games in hand..

The only player they have bought is William Carvalho who is more of a back up,and they use the same formation so nothing has changed but they are still very formidable whereas i've hit a brick wall very hard..

I've bought a few young back up players who i want to build up and eventually bring into my team..

I've tried tweaking my roles and duties and dropped deeper etc but all it does is invite pressure where i eventually concede....my job has gone from secure to very insecure in a space of a few months...i'm now in the same position as Mourinho at Chelsea and Ranieri at Leicester where my players have downed tools..

Could my problem be down to not improving my squad and relying on the same players?...but then again Juventus didn't and they are dominating...or again is this because they have a powerful squad anyway?

Can i please get advice from anyone who has encountered any problems after success please

 

Thanks

[dcaine100]

I think you tactic lacks width, other than your WBs you have no width which was fine when teams were playing more open against you but now they are sitting deep and compact you need to stretch play and create space.

Maybe experiment using a 4-2-3-1 with wingers, im having great results with the following:

GK (D)

Fb support x2

CB defend x2

BWM Defend

CM Support*

Winger Attack x2

AM Support*

CF Attack

*PI's tackle harder and more risky passes added to CM and AM.

[HUNT3R]

This, much like the other thread, also seems very open to teams sitting deep and hitting you on the break. You're also letting a lot of players go forward. You have 3 players sitting back and that 1 DM will need to cover both flanks. As soon as he's pulled one side, he leaves the very important space in front of his defence open.

[Thunder88]

Thanks guys..

I was doing a lot of reading on the second season problems many have,and mainly the advice was to just tweak a few roles in your formation and don't risk changing it all...obviously it isn't working so i'll experiment with a new formation

I'll try the 4-2-3-1 like you mentioned dcaine and see if it changes my luck..

But the annoying thing is that i was enjoying that formation,and as i said it brought success,and i even brought in players for that formation in the future..

I've read many threads saying it is best to bring in players to fit your formation/ideas..but it looks as though teams have countered my formation..

So am i right to try a new formation,or is there any other ideas i can come up with that maybe helps me against the deeper sitting teams with my 4-3-1-2?

[jorgvandervloed]

I think your tactic is very one-dimensional and with teams sitting back more it will be hard to break them down; as you've experienced yourself. Besides the AF, there is no real presence in the box and one player is really easy to mark. Your F9 is dropping deep, the AP is more a creator who won't make runs very often, the two BBM's will have to come from midfield so will get there rather late. 

The two roles you need to look at will be the F9 and the AP; both are creators while you need at least one more goal-scorer. You could go for a CS (support) instead of the F9, who will still drop deep and create for other but will mainly be a goal-scorer. At the same time, you could change the support duty of the AP into an attacking one so he will support the strikers a bit more. 

 

[Cap'nRad]

On 5/25/2017 at 05:05, Thunder88 said:

Thanks guys..

I was doing a lot of reading on the second season problems many have,and mainly the advice was to just tweak a few roles in your formation and don't risk changing it all...obviously it isn't working so i'll experiment with a new formation

I'll try the 4-2-3-1 like you mentioned dcaine and see if it changes my luck..

But the annoying thing is that i was enjoying that formation,and as i said it brought success,and i even brought in players for that formation in the future..

I've read many threads saying it is best to bring in players to fit your formation/ideas..but it looks as though teams have countered my formation..

So am i right to try a new formation,or is there any other ideas i can come up with that maybe helps me against the deeper sitting teams with my 4-3-1-2?

It could be a simple matter of making your wingbacks support the midfield more instead of bombing forward into a final 3rd that already contains 2 strikers and potentially 2 attacking mids. Or maybe a bit more asymmetry in that one wingback goes higher earlier that the other, with the bbm on that side a bit more conservative. Either way, just because you don't have wingers doesn't mean you can't play with width. The 4312 is a nice attack formation, and I'm sure you don't need to switch to another to attack effectively

[Thunder88]

43 minutes ago, jorgvandervloed said:

I think your tactic is very one-dimensional and with teams sitting back more it will be hard to break them down; as you've experienced yourself. Besides the AF, there is no real presence in the box and one player is really easy to mark. Your F9 is dropping deep, the AP is more a creator who won't make runs very often, the two BBM's will have to come from midfield so will get there rather late. 

The two roles you need to look at will be the F9 and the AP; both are creators while you need at least one more goal-scorer. You could go for a CS (support) instead of the F9, who will still drop deep and create for other but will mainly be a goal-scorer. At the same time, you could change the support duty of the AP into an attacking one so he will support the strikers a bit more. 

 

Thanks for the feedback,i'll tweak a few roles around as you've mentioned and see how i get on.

[Thunder88]

10 minutes ago, Cap'nRad said:

It could be a simple matter of making your wingbacks support the midfield more instead of bombing forward into a final 3rd that already contains 2 strikers and potentially 2 attacking mids. Or maybe a bit more asymmetry in that one wingback goes higher earlier that the other, with the bbm on that side a bit more conservative. Either way, just because you don't have wingers doesn't mean you can't play with width. The 4312 is a nice attack formation, and I'm sure you don't need to switch to another to attack effectively

Thanks for the feedback,i've changed my wingbacks to FB on support and i am now seeing more balance to my attacks so you make a good point,i'll keep trying with variations and see if i improve more.

[herne79]

I'll let you into a dirty little secret: there's no such thing as second season syndrome .

What can (and does) happen is that AI managers are very good at adapting.  But that adapting isn't restricted to the second season - they can adapt at any point in time, even during the 90 minutes of any given match.  So if human managers don't spot this in time, and do something to counteract this, bad results can follow.

I've extensively been using a not dissimilar system to yours this year with West Ham (it's actually a 442 narrow diamond) and my core system several years into the save is exactly the same as it was season one.  All I do is adapt (if needed) during each match.

In that system, one of the key elements I keep close tabs on is how my AMC is performing.  He's my key man, my star player and if he looks like he's having a tough game I need to do something about it.  One of the simplest moves I can make to adapt to such a situation is to simply move him back to central midfield with an appropriate role and PIs.  @Rashidi extensively talks about this kind of movement which he terms as "flipping" - usually in connection with "flipping" a 4312 into a 4132 (or vice versa).  ok, I'm only doing "half a flip" if I can put it like that (I use a narrow diamond remember), but the same basic principle applies: make a minor formation change to produce a big impact on how space is created and used.

[Thunder88]

59 minutes ago, herne79 said:

I'll let you into a dirty little secret: there's no such thing as second season syndrome .

What can (and does) happen is that AI managers are very good at adapting.  But that adapting isn't restricted to the second season - they can adapt at any point in time, even during the 90 minutes of any given match.  So if human managers don't spot this in time, and do something to counteract this, bad results can follow.

I've extensively been using a not dissimilar system to yours this year with West Ham (it's actually a 442 narrow diamond) and my core system several years into the save is exactly the same as it was season one.  All I do is adapt (if needed) during each match.

In that system, one of the key elements I keep close tabs on is how my AMC is performing.  He's my key man, my star player and if he looks like he's having a tough game I need to do something about it.  One of the simplest moves I can make to adapt to such a situation is to simply move him back to central midfield with an appropriate role and PIs.  @Rashidi extensively talks about this kind of movement which he terms as "flipping" - usually in connection with "flipping" a 4312 into a 4132 (or vice versa).  ok, I'm only doing "half a flip" if I can put it like that (I use a narrow diamond remember), but the same basic principle applies: make a minor formation change to produce a big impact on how space is created and used.

Again thanks for the feedback,and what you described with dropping your AM/key player that little bit deeper is basically what Klopp did with Coutinho which in turn brought Liverpool and Coutinho success..

What i've done is drop my AM and instead gone with a DM behind my 3 central midfielders...so now my 2 wider CM's can go forward and link up with my 2 strikers without me getting caught out as much,i now have my DM sitting in front of my two CB's and a DLP on support pulling the strings in front of him...and my FB's are now just regular FB's on support...i've got my balance back which has seen my results dramatically improve as i'm now in 4th with Icardi back among the goals..

I'm not really someone who likes to go deep into a save,i usually restart after about the 3rd season,but this year i'm really enjoying this save and i'm enjoying having to adapt my team...normally by now i'd have tried about 5 different new formations...got sacked and then restarted but i'm enjoying having to think and change a few things each game etc..

Thanks for the help everyone,much appreciated.

[herne79]

3 hours ago, Thunder88 said:

I'm not really someone who likes to go deep into a save,i usually restart after about the 3rd season,but this year i'm really enjoying this save and i'm enjoying having to adapt my team...normally by now i'd have tried about 5 different new formations...got sacked and then restarted but i'm enjoying having to think and change a few things each game etc..

Excellent, great to hear .

[lemeuresnew]

5 hours ago, herne79 said:

ok, I'm only doing "half a flip" if I can put it like that (I use a narrow diamond remember), but the same basic principle applies: make a minor formation change to produce a big impact on how space is created and used.

i like you posts, they usually make me feel clever because i do similar things  

@Thunder88 i find another useful thing about the 4-3-1-2, is that it is one of the easiest formations to adapt similar like herne said above.  if you find one fullback having a game where everything he does goes right, i find sticking him on attack and changing the wide midfielder on his side to bwm defender really makes the most of his form without changing anything for the rest of the team really well. or similarly, if a bbm is on fire giving him more freedom and hold the fb on his side back a little, or evern the dlp to defend to balance it out again.

so much freedom with that formation, once you know your squad and have some alternative styles on the bench you can almost play any style with it you like

 

[Thunder88]

10 hours ago, lemeuresnew said:

i like you posts, they usually make me feel clever because i do similar things  

@Thunder88 i find another useful thing about the 4-3-1-2, is that it is one of the easiest formations to adapt similar like herne said above.  if you find one fullback having a game where everything he does goes right, i find sticking him on attack and changing the wide midfielder on his side to bwm defender really makes the most of his form without changing anything for the rest of the team really well. or similarly, if a bbm is on fire giving him more freedom and hold the fb on his side back a little, or evern the dlp to defend to balance it out again.

so much freedom with that formation, once you know your squad and have some alternative styles on the bench you can almost play any style with it you like

 

I agree mate,it's a formation i've always liked and even more so with the Milan team under Ancelotti with a midfield 3 of Pirlo,Gattuso and Seedorf with the impressive Kaka in front of the 3 and then the lethal Shevchenko leading the line..

My team is a little similar right now..

I have Joao Mario pulling the strings from deep - so he's my Pirlo

Kondogbia/Brozovic are the box to box/roaming playmakers - they are the Seedorf in my team

Medel/Fernando are the ball winners - The Gattuso type of player

Ever Banega/Gabriel Barbosa - the advanced playmaker/shadow striker - Kaka of my team

Then there's the lethal Mauro Icardi who is a similar player to Shevchenko leading the line

I don't have anywhere near the defence of Maldini,Nesta,Cafu or Stam so my next plan is getting my defence sorted.