Teamwork in the M.E

[Cap'nRad]

I've recently tried to create tactics for spurs and liverpool which mirror their real life playstyle, and I began to notice something weird. For players like adam lallana and dele alli, in real life you often see them making frequent runs beyond the other attackers, however, i can't get them to do so frequently and I'm certain it's because of their high levels of teamwork. I'm sure because I've experimented with altering nothing else except their teamwork (lowering it) and the number of runs they make afterward as well as the aggressiveness of their runs is greatly increased.

Question is, is this working as intended? Because I've always thought that higher teamwork should mean trying to adhere to manager's instructions as opposed to simply coming deep for the ball and wanting to be closer to it at all times. Which should follow that if i tell a player with high teamwork to get further forward, move into channels, AND he has gets into oppo. area ppm, he should be making these runs diligently every other minute for the good of the team (as you often see lallana and alli do irl). I was also wondering if the s.i researchers are aware that this is what high teamwork does, because i believe if they were, a few players would have lower teamwork in the database so that they can make more frequent runs mirroring their real life playstyle.

[santy001]

I admire the thought and sentiment behind this, but you're going to need a lot more to make this a topic of conversation. 

It's a hell of a lot of effort, but to prove it is working as you think it is people would need to be able to see what you're seeing in both situations so there would have to be PKMs of the situations involved. You'd also need to be keeping the entire games saved to keep on hand so that should the initial round of PKMs be indicative there may be a problem it can be looked into a little more thoroughly as invariably there will be a bit of perception bias once you begin to notice something.

Teamwork has a very simple definition for researchers, which is:

How good he is at playing for the team rather than for himself.

This means it's not quite so likely to influence whether he runs forward or not directly itself, but its very much likely to be used in conjunction with other stats as to whether certain runs are best for the team or best for his own chance at glory. If nothing else, hopefully this at least helps to provide a bit more help towards refining the point because you could be right, you might not be but as a researcher for example, I certainly couldn't justify overhauling my players team work ratings off of this. That means its possibly not yet in a point where SI could look at it and agree either.

[Tajerio]

For Alli, what you perceive as his lack of runs beyond may be down to two of his PPMs: Comes Deep to Get Ball and Arrives Late in Opposition Area.  The former will have him dropping off to pick up the ball, and the latter will have him delaying his runs into the box--both of which would militate against him making early overlapping runs.  Perhaps you'll want to take his PPMs up with the Spurs researcher.

That said, I play Alli a lot in either a 4-1-4-1 or a 3-5-1-1 and I've seen no shortage of those forward runs from him, so perhaps your tactics aren't creating the situation he needs?

[Cap'nRad]

2 hours ago, santy001 said:

 

I admire the thought and sentiment behind this, but you're going to need a lot more to make this a topic of conversation. 

It's a hell of a lot of effort, but to prove it is working as you think it is people would need to be able to see what you're seeing in both situations so there would have to be PKMs of the situations involved. You'd also need to be keeping the entire games saved to keep on hand so that should the initial round of PKMs be indicative there may be a problem it can be looked into a little more thoroughly as invariably there will be a bit of perception bias once you begin to notice something.

 

Hello santy, thanks for the reply. It's definitely possible that it's simply perception bias so I agree that other eyes besides mine need to look at the situation. However i am fairly certain that teamwork increases tendency to come deep for/ close to the ball, playing two different types of strikers (poacher &defensive forward) in the same dlf role will show you a difference in their playstyle. I don't really have a problem if this is how s.i shows teamwork in the m.e, i was just hoping the people in charge of attributes were aware that this is how seemingly works. If you don't mind conducting a quick test next time you play you could do the same thing i did. Put aggressive forward instructions on a player (preferably central/ attacking midfield as it is most clear in that area), then increase and lower the teamwork attribute and see how he performs in the same match, as well as his average position. With higher teamwork he should be closer to the ball and deeper.

 

2 hours ago, santy001 said:

Teamwork has a very simple definition for researchers, which is:

 

How good he is at playing for the team rather than for himself.

With this definition in mind, the values for teamwork make a lot of sense, as lallana and alli in my examples are very team oriented players. So (assuming I am right, which is still up for debate) the question should be should teamwork act like this in the m.e? What if making the run is part of a greater set of tactical instructions that will increase the chances of scoring... wouldn't a high teamwork player sacrifice his position to benefit the team? A practical example: rooney in the weeks past was often accused of "clogging up the midfield", because he would often come deep when it was clear he should be making forward runs to support ibrahimovic. On the other hand, in the first match for liverpool vs leicester this season, sturridge made a run which drew morgan out of position, leaving firmino with a chance to score. I believe the m.e would view the first instance as high teamwork, and the second as low and although I disagree, it's fine with me if s.i define things this way, as long as the s.i researchers are made aware.

Also, as an aside, since the player attributes directly influence their m.e behaviour, shouldn't there be a bit more clarity in this area. This definition doesn't seem much to go on...

 

2 hours ago, santy001 said:

you could be right, you might not be but as a researcher for example, I certainly couldn't justify overhauling my players team work ratings off of this. That means its possibly not yet in a point where SI could look at it and agree either.

I agree, and i guess since i brought up the topic I need to provide further evidence of my point. Any suggestions on how i should go about it?

[Cap'nRad]

2 hours ago, Tajerio said:

For Alli, what you perceive as his lack of runs beyond may be down to two of his PPMs: Comes Deep to Get Ball and Arrives Late in Opposition Area.  The former will have him dropping off to pick up the ball, and the latter will have him delaying his runs into the box--both of which would militate against him making early overlapping runs.  Perhaps you'll want to take his PPMs up with the Spurs researcher.

That said, I play Alli a lot in either a 4-1-4-1 or a 3-5-1-1 and I've seen no shortage of those forward runs from him, so perhaps your tactics aren't creating the situation he needs?

Hey Tajerio. You're right about the ppms. Interestingly, i think those ppms are correct as he occasionally comes deep and he often checks his run to arrive unmarked in the area; they just need to be accompanied with more aggressive ppms to get him forward, or a lower teamwork rating, or maybe both.

As to your 2nd point, do you ever see him make runs like this:

as this is what he would frequently do last season; however with his ppm and teamwork combo, i never really see him making these kind of movements. He still gets into the area mind you, but in a more withdrawn fashion.

Like you said, it could be my tactics but seeing as how reducing his teamwork increased his runs, i'm not so sure.

 

[Tajerio]

2 hours ago, Cap'nRad said:

Hey Tajerio. You're right about the ppms. Interestingly, i think those ppms are correct as he occasionally comes deep and he often checks his run to arrive unmarked in the area; they just need to be accompanied with more aggressive ppms to get him forward, or a lower teamwork rating, or maybe both.

As to your 2nd point, do you ever see him make runs like this:

as this is what he would frequently do last season; however with his ppm and teamwork combo, i never really see him making these kind of movements. He still gets into the area mind you, but in a more withdrawn fashion.

Like you said, it could be my tactics but seeing as how reducing his teamwork increased his runs, i'm not so sure.

 

You could well be right--I haven't done the experiment and you have.  I will also say that most of the runs I see him making are into the channels, and after getting the ball he's looking to center for another player rather than finishing the move himself as in that clip.  In most of my formations, though, he's in the MC stratum.  On the occasions when I play a 4-2-3-1, he's usually at AMC and then I do see him making some spectacular runs with equally brilliant finishes.

I'll also agree with you that the definition of teamwork seems a bit fuzzy, and I'm not clear on what it's supposed to mean in the ME either.

[HUNT3R]

Isolating a single attribute as the cause of anything is dangerous, IMO.

Everything needs to be looked at, including your tactics, the Team Instructions and roles for these players specifically.

Are you creating the space for them to run into? Are you giving them roles and duties that allow these constant runs? Are your Mentality and other Team Instructions encouraging this behaviour or restricting it?

 

Edit: As far as Teamwork goes, the manual description is also what I believe it to be - low teamwork players will have more selfish tendencies where high teamwork players would be more inclined to stick to instructions.

[elGordo]

1 hour ago, HUNT3R said:

Isolating a single attribute as the cause of anything is dangerous, IMO.

Everything needs to be looked at, including your tactics, the Team Instructions and roles for these players specifically.

Are you creating the space for them to run into? Are you giving them roles and duties that allow these constant runs? Are your Mentality and other Team Instructions encouraging this behaviour or restricting it?

 

Edit: As far as Teamwork goes, the manual description is also what I believe it to be - low teamwork players will have more selfish tendencies where high teamwork players would be more inclined to stick to instructions.

Do you think it's possible for SI or one of the researchers to release all the guides for attributes? I feel like alot of questions I and many have would be answered if they made a sticky post in the data feedback forum. 

7 hours ago, santy001 said:

Teamwork has a very simple definition for researchers, which is:

How good he is at playing for the team rather than for himself.

 

This is what i mean in case i didn't make myself clear.

[HUNT3R]

1 minute ago, elGordo said:

Do you think it's possible for SI or one of the researchers to release all the guides for attributes? I feel like alot of questions I and many have would be answered if they made a sticky post in the data feedback forum. 

The FM Manual does give you decent descriptions of Attributes, so IMO, this shouldn't be necessary.

[elGordo]

1 minute ago, HUNT3R said:

The FM Manual does give you decent descriptions of Attributes, so IMO, this shouldn't be necessary.

I honestly have never looked at the manual since i used to buy the game on disc.

After i submitted my comment i googled it and now i see what you mean. My apologies.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, elGordo said:

I honestly have never looked at the manual since i used to buy the game on disc.

After i submitted my comment i googled it and now i see what you mean. My apologies.

No worries. 

[santy001]

11 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

The FM Manual does give you decent descriptions of Attributes, so IMO, this shouldn't be necessary.

Think we've had it come up in a few discussions before, but researcher definitions are in some cases different to the manual ones. Best example is when agility came up in a discussion about player ratings a while back, it had a bit of information about how it also works for goalkeepers. A lot of our definitions are actually simpler than the manual, but some have a bit more nuance to them. 

How agile he is. For outfield players this indicates how quickly a player can turn (speed of his turning circle). For GKs, it influences how far he can throw himself to make a save.

vs

Agility reflects how well a player can start, stop, and move in different directions at varying levels of speed (pace). It ties in with the Pace, Acceleration and Balance attributes as they work together in the match engine, especially when a player is running with the ball.

It's mostly useful to let people know what the attribute definitions are - as we get them - when people have thoughts about anything to do with how players are researched though. Just because its harder to sometimes have the discussion when the definitions are slightly varied (or left for someone to impose their own meaning on). Again coming back to the agility discussion, when someone quoted me the game manual definition I was struggling to remember why I had set a goalkeeper to have quite a high agility rating - when I got home and checked the researcher definition it was immediately obvious as to why (it can be a bit tough to remember why you set a specific attribute as you did 3/4 months after the fact!)

[herne79]

1 hour ago, elGordo said:

I honestly have never looked at the manual since i used to buy the game on disc.

After i submitted my comment i googled it and now i see what you mean. My apologies.

Just for info, there's no need to google it.  It's found under the Online Manual tab at the top of this forum.

[sipsi]

Teamwork is one of the attributes which is affected most by your tactics, team shape, other players, in game situations...

Years ago, in old versions when tactics screen and match engine were simplier. I was preferring my main scorer and talented wingers especially from the ones with low teamwork because obviously the players with nice pace, flair and finishing touches were more useful when they were just trying their chances by themselves.(not always but you have got the idea)

Coming back to the subject. If I want to use my AMC type players with full performance in my Besiktas save (Anderson Talisca and Oguzhan Ozyakup) I'm using a wide formation, mixed passing with high creation and roam from positions option) Yes they from center with high frequency and score . In this situation if I give my DMC with 20 teamwork(atiba hutchinson) He does the same too ironically.

 If I play narrower, shorter passing, without creative and roam from position option Oguzhan just passes the ball occasionally to wing or the penalty area or a player coming closer to him)

Actually the best is to play short passing and prevent these type of players from diving from the middle because somehow they are more useful this way in the long run. On the other hand I'm playing against Barcelona, Arsenal and Sporting on my first season and this worked better for me. Whenever I try to get the best from Talisca and put him into the center trying for dangerous inside runs it just didn't work.