The SI Sports Centre - DISCUSSION THREAD

[yonko]

As for stats I don't agree with Yonko, here is the importance I'd go for;

Positioning, Decisions, composure, concentration, anticipation, determination, marking, tackling, strength. You want as many of those as high as possible. I've also put them in order of importance. If a player cannot be in the correct position to begin with then he is always going to be that half of yard behind play, no matter how good his other attributes are. The mental attributes of a player far outweights the technicals imo.

That's pretty much the same as mine. What you don't agree with? Marking, tackling, positioning, anticipation and concentration are equally important for a good defender. You can't say one is more important than the others.

[Cleon]

That's pretty much the same as mine. What you don't agree with? Marking, tackling, positioning, anticipation and concentration are equally important for a good defender. You can't say one is more important than the others.

You tried and made some more important than other, you broke them down into 3 priority lists. Some of the ones you put in list 2 and 3 should be regarded as vital and should have been on list 1. I don't agree with how you prioritised them that was all.

[gian]

Hello Cleon,

When are you going to continue with the tactic analysis? I was reading it with ultimate interest and have been waiting, avidly, for you to continue with it. Sorry for my English but I´m portuguese;)

A great Kudo for your work, Cleon. I am a big fan!

[Cleon]

Hello Cleon,

When are you going to continue with the tactic analysis? I was reading it with ultimate interest and have been waiting, avidly, for you to continue with it. Sorry for my English but I´m portuguese;)

A great Kudo for your work, Cleon. I am a big fan!

When I get the time, like I said in opening post its a massive project and takes a lot of time.

[yonko]

You tried and made some more important than other, you broke them down into 3 priority lists. Some of the ones you put in list 2 and 3 should be regarded as vital and should have been on list 1. I don't agree with how you prioritised them that was all.

So you honestly think that composure is more important than marking or tackling for centerbacks? With all other attributes being equal:

defender A has 10 for tackling and 15 for composure

defender B has 15 for tackling and 10 for composure

You would take defender A? Please....that is just silly....

Decisions and determination are attributes that all players should ideally have throughout the team, not just defenders. And I usually consider them swinging attributes that tip my choice, but only if other vital (to me) and position-specific (for CBs) attributes like tackling, marking, positioning, anticipation and concentration are equal or marginally close.

The way I posted my 3 priority levels was meant to represent what I look at when comparing/searching for defenders. The only exception I make is when searching for U18 players. If a U18 defender has 10s for tackling, marking, positioning, anticipation and concentration, but also has 15s for decision and determination, is a good investment to me because he has time to develop the position-specific attributes. However, if I'm looking for a defender for my first team rotation or a starting spot, I will absolutely not buy a defender with low position-specific attributes for centerback. I'm perfectly fine with a defender with the following combination of attributes:

marking, tackling, positioning, anticipation, concentration > 15

decisions, determination, bravery, composure = 12

[yonko]

You tried and made some more important than other, you broke them down into 3 priority lists. Some of the ones you put in list 2 and 3 should be regarded as vital and should have been on list 1. I don't agree with how you prioritised them that was all.

So you honestly think that composure is more important than marking or tackling for centerbacks? With all other attributes being equal:

defender A has 10 for tackling and 15 for composure

defender B has 15 for tackling and 10 for composure

You would take defender A? Please....that is just silly....

Decisions and determination are attributes that all players should ideally have throughout the team, not just defenders. And I usually consider them swinging attributes that tip my choice, but only if other vital (to me) and position-specific (for CBs) attributes like tackling, marking, positioning, anticipation and concentration are equal or marginally close.

The way I posted my 3 priority levels was meant to represent what I look at when comparing/searching for defenders. The only exception I make is when searching for U18 players. If a U18 defender has 10s for tackling, marking, positioning, anticipation and concentration, but also has 15s for decision and determination, is a good investment to me because he has time to develop the position-specific attributes. However, if I'm looking for a defender for my first team rotation or a starting spot, I will absolutely not buy a defender with low position-specific attributes for centerback. I'm perfectly fine with a defender with the following combination of attributes:

marking, tackling, positioning, anticipation, concentration > 15

decisions, determination, bravery, composure = 12

[Cleon]

So you honestly think that composure is more important than marking or tackling for centerbacks? With all other attributes being equal:

defender A has 10 for tackling and 15 for composure

defender B has 15 for tackling and 10 for composure

You would take defender A? Please....that is just silly....

Decisions and determination are attributes that all players should ideally have throughout the team, not just defenders. And I usually consider them swinging attributes that tip my choice, but only if other vital (to me) and position-specific (for CBs) attributes like tackling, marking, positioning, anticipation and concentration are equal or marginally close.

The way I posted my 3 priority levels was meant to represent what I look at when comparing/searching for defenders. The only exception I make is when searching for U18 players. If a U18 defender has 10s for tackling, marking, positioning, anticipation and concentration, but also has 15s for decision and determination, is a good investment to me because he has time to develop the position-specific attributes. However, if I'm looking for a defender for my first team rotation or a starting spot, I will absolutely not buy a defender with low position-specific attributes for centerback. I'm perfectly fine with a defender with the following combination of attributes:

marking, tackling, positioning, anticipation, concentration > 15

decisions, determination, bravery, composure = 12

I disagree with you, no need to call me silly. You look for the attributes you want thats fair enough, but I don't agree with how you ranked them. And yes composure is more important as its his ability to stay calm. If he isn't calm the likelyhood is he won't win the tackle to begin with, so having a high tackling attribute is useless. If you disagree fine, but don't call me silly.

In a perfect world you want more higher attributes for all the stats that I listed, but you just get the player who is the most rounded and has the majority of better stats if uou can't find someone that good. The attributes I linked are in order of importance that I would go for due to how they actually work in game.

I stick by what I said, I don't agree with you.

[yonko]

I disagree with you, no need to call me silly. You look for the attributes you want thats fair enough, but I don't agree with how you ranked them. And yes composure is more important as its his ability to stay calm. If he isn't calm the likelyhood is he won't win the tackle to begin with, so having a high tackling attribute is useless. If you disagree fine, but don't call me silly.

In a perfect world you want more higher attributes for all the stats that I listed, but you just get the player who is the most rounded and has the majority of better stats if uou can't find someone that good. The attributes I linked are in order of importance that I would go for due to how they actually work in game.

I stick by what I said, I don't agree with you.

Just to clarify, I didn't call you silly. I simply said that it is silly to choose a higher composure over higher tackling (and/or marking) as priority for a central defender. I'm sorry if that offends you either way.

Even if a defender is calm as cucumber, but he can't tackle, he still wont win tackles.

You stick by what you said and I stick by what I said. We'll have to agree to disagree on the priority for attributes then.

[grimness]

If he has good mental abilities he will be better positioned for interception, so tackle isn't needed. It should be last option.

[faraowww]

Cleon, I've got something on my mind and I'm curious to your opinion. It's about the off the ball attribute. You wrote: ...this is how well a player, particularly attacking ones, can assess a situation and then move off the ball, making themselves available to receive a pass in a dangerous position. But do you think it is also useful for midfielders? And I don't mean midfielders running into the oppositions area, but for midfielders to make themselves available for a pass, not in a dangerous position. I think that it is essential for midfielders to find space on the pitch, where they can receive the ball and pass it on. It would make sense if off the ball is important here, but I don't play enough full length matches to be sure. Perhaps you know more...

[Cleon]

Just to clarify, I didn't call you silly. I simply said that it is silly to choose a higher composure over higher tackling (and/or marking) as priority for a central defender. I'm sorry if that offends you either way.

Even if a defender is calm as cucumber, but he can't tackle, he still wont win tackles.

You stick by what you said and I stick by what I said. We'll have to agree to disagree on the priority for attributes then.

Mental attributes far outweight the technicals. Id pick mentals over technicals any day of the week, as its mentals that determine how successful they'll be with what you've instructed them to do.

I've studied the attributes for the last 4 years closely, more than anyone else on the forums from what I've seen. It was all me and SFrazer used to talk about in emails and PM's. I'm pretty sure when I say its less important than you give it credit for. Unless you've discovered something I've not? I'd be interested to see why you think its more important than decisions and determination, seeing as decisions is vital for every single player as its their ability to 'think'.

If he has good mental abilities he will be better positioned for interception, so tackle isn't needed. It should be last option.

Yups

Cleon, I've got something on my mind and I'm curious to your opinion. It's about the off the ball attribute. You wrote: ...this is how well a player, particularly attacking ones, can assess a situation and then move off the ball, making themselves available to receive a pass in a dangerous position. But do you think it is also useful for midfielders? And I don't mean midfielders running into the oppositions area, but for midfielders to make themselves available for a pass, not in a dangerous position. I think that it is essential for midfielders to find space on the pitch, where they can receive the ball and pass it on. It would make sense if off the ball is important here, but I don't play enough full length matches to be sure. Perhaps you know more...

Yeah its vital for all players who you want to find space to be passed to.

[yonko]

Mental attributes far outweight the technicals. Id pick mentals over technicals any day of the week, as its mentals that determine how successful they'll be with what you've instructed them to do.

I've studied the attributes for the last 4 years closely, more than anyone else on the forums from what I've seen. It was all me and SFrazer used to talk about in emails and PM's. I'm pretty sure when I say its less important than you give it credit for. Unless you've discovered something I've not? I'd be interested to see why you think its more important than decisions and determination, seeing as decisions is vital for every single player as its their ability to 'think'.

Cleon, I'm fully aware of your resume and reputation as an FM expert. I admire the time you've put to study the game. As for me, I've played the game since the early CM days in the early to mid 90s. But to be honest, I wouldn't say I've studied it the way you have. So I'm not going to try and claim I've discovered something you haven't.

Mental attributes are important. If you notice in my priority list I have 3 of them - anticipation, concentration and positioning (alphabetical order). There are general mental attributes that I want high for all players regardless of position or role. Decisions and determination are two of those. When looking for players I separate attributes into 3 categories: position-specific, general and bonus. Obviously like everyone else, I would like all attributes to be as high as possible.

I consider composure to be more important for the attacking players, the players I want on the ball and/or in front of oppositions' goal. There are plenty of other attributes that determine how successful a defensive player is at tackling or intercepting the ball from the other team/players. IMO composure plays the least role in determining that aspect of the game for defensive players. Anticipation, positioning, marking and decisions are the most important for making interceptions, while marking, tackling, positioning, bravery, aggression and strength are more important for making a tackle. Composure helps with tackling to some extent, but I don't think it does as much as the other attributes.

Let me ask you this. Do you find that the description of each attribute in the game is accurate? What does your study say about that?

[Cleon]

Cleon, I'm fully aware of your resume and reputation as an FM expert. I admire the time you've put to study the game. As for me, I've played the game since the early CM days in the early to mid 90s. But to be honest, I wouldn't say I've studied it the way you have. So I'm not going to try and claim I've discovered something you haven't.

Mental attributes are important. If you notice in my priority list I have 3 of them - anticipation, concentration and positioning (alphabetical order). There are general mental attributes that I want high for all players regardless of position or role. Decisions and determination are two of those. When looking for players I separate attributes into 3 categories: position-specific, general and bonus. Obviously like everyone else, I would like all attributes to be as high as possible.

I consider composure to be more important for the attacking players, the players I want on the ball and/or in front of oppositions' goal. There are plenty of other attributes that determine how successful a defensive player is at tackling or intercepting the ball from the other team/players. IMO composure plays the least role in determining that aspect of the game for defensive players. Anticipation, positioning, marking and decisions are the most important for making interceptions, while marking, tackling, positioning, bravery, aggression and strength are more important for making a tackle. Composure helps with tackling to some extent, but I don't think it does as much as the other attributes.

Let me ask you this. Do you find that the description of each attribute in the game is accurate? What does your study say about that?

I still don't agree with you, sorry

The player’s steadiness of mind and ability, particularly with the ball. When faced with a big goalscoring chance or heavy pressure defensively, a player with high composure will be able to keep his head and more often than not make an intelligent decision which is beneficial to the team.

Low composure effects a players decision making, so when under pressure he will be flustered and panic, increasing the likehood of making a mistake. That's why its vital and one of the reasons so many people struggle with the game defensivley as they disregard the attributes as they don;t understand how they actually work.

The descritptions in the online manual are pretty accurate yes, even though basic. But the info they offer are enough for someone to get a general grasp of how it works.

[yonko]

I still don't agree with you, sorry

I can live with that.

Low composure effects a players decision making, so when under pressure he will be flustered and panic, increasing the likehood of making a mistake. That's why its vital and one of the reasons so many people struggle with the game defensivley as they disregard the attributes as they don;t understand how they actually work.

The descritptions in the online manual are pretty accurate yes, even though basic. But the info they offer are enough for someone to get a general grasp of how it works.

What does the description for tackling say? How much is the difference between a defender with 12 for composure vs one with 15?

Notice in the description you quoted the part where it says "...particularly with the ball"? Also, "big goalscoring chance". What does "heavy pressure defensively" mean exactly? I take it to mean players on the ball faced with defensive pressure from opposition. I don't see anything that implies that composure helps defensive players with tackling or interceptions. Even if it is by association, it is less than other attributes. I think concentration is more important than composure for defensive players, particularly when trying to make interceptions.

Therefore I stand by what I said in my previous post that Composure is more important for attacking players you want on the ball - for example, your main goalscoring attacker or your playmaking midfielder. BTW, who do you think is more likely to make the right decision - a player with higher decisions attribute + lower composure or a player with lower decisions + higher composure?

[Cleon]

Therefore I stand by what I said in my previous post that Composure is more important for attacking players you want on the ball - for example, your main goalscoring attacker or your playmaking midfielder. BTW, who do you think is more likely to make the right decision - a player with higher decisions attribute + lower composure or a player with lower decisions + higher composure?

Depends on his other attributes, you can't isolate them like you keep doing. And it heavly depends on the situation regarding the scenario you posted. Like I said the description is a good start although basic.......all technical attributes are how good they are at doing whatever the attribute is. But how 'successful' they are is down to mentals and not technicals.

I know exactly what the attributes do and stand by what I've wriiten. I respect your opinion and views on the attributes, but for me I don't agree with them. And on that note I'm out, as we just going around in circles

[yonko]

Depends on his other attributes, you can't isolate them like you keep doing. And it heavly depends on the situation regarding the scenario you posted. Like I said the description is a good start although basic.......all technical attributes are how good they are at doing whatever the attribute is. But how 'successful' they are is down to mentals and not technicals.

I know exactly what the attributes do and stand by what I've wriiten. I respect your opinion and views on the attributes, but for me I don't agree with them. And on that note I'm out, as we just going around in circles

When I isolate decisions and composure like that, assume that all other attributes are equal. So which one would make the better decision?

I'm not disagreeing that mental attributes determine how successful technical attributes are. But in case of central defenders, composure plays the least role. There are other mental attributes that play much bigger role. Heck, even some physical attributes play bigger role in determining how successful a tackle or interception is than composure. That is all.

[Cleon]

When I isolate decisions and composure like that, assume that all other attributes are equal. So which one would make the better decision?

I'm not disagreeing that mental attributes determine how successful technical attributes are. But in case of central defenders, composure plays the least role. There are other mental attributes that play much bigger role. Heck, even some physical attributes play bigger role in determining how successful a tackle or interception is than composure. That is all.

The composed player would make the best decisions as you said all the other attributes would be equal and seeing as you said they would have a lower tackling attribute than the rest, I stick by what I said.

I still disagree with you from my own studies

[Steve Odom]

When I isolate decisions and composure like that, assume that all other attributes are equal. So which one would make the better decision?

I'm not disagreeing that mental attributes determine how successful technical attributes are. But in case of central defenders, composure plays the least role. There are other mental attributes that play much bigger role. Heck, even some physical attributes play bigger role in determining how successful a tackle or interception is than composure. That is all.

Composure is important for all players. it's one of the first things I look for. if you are under pressure, it helps to be composed. A defender with low tackling can do a fine job if you set his tackling to "easy". A defender with low composure will lose you the ball and make silly mistakes that cost you points, regardless of your instructions.

The mental attributes are important because they allow your player to follow your tactical instructions.

[yonko]

The composed player would make the best decisions as you said all the other attributes would be equal and seeing as you said they would have a lower tackling attribute than the rest, I stick by what I said.

I still disagree with you from my own studies

Now you make it look like composure is more important attribute than decisions.....for all players. What does the decisions attribute do? Doesn't it affect players' decisions the most?

Let me clarify this. A player with 15 for composure and 10 for decisions would make a better decision on an action, then another player with 10 for composure and 15 for decisions? And if making a tackle, his tackling attribute has less to do with it than his composure? That doesn't make sense.....

In your priority list Cleon, which you posted earlier, you put Decisions before Composure. Let me refresh your memory....your list was: Positioning, Decisions, Composure, Concentration, Anticipation, Determination, Marking, Tackling, Strength. Do you stand by that priority list? I assume it is based on your studies. So Decisions is more important than Composure according to that list. But now in this reply you say different.

Looking at your list again and considering just the mental attributes, I cannot agree that Composure is more important than Concentration, Anticipation and Determination in general for a central defender or any defensive player. Specifically about making a successful tackle, even Strength probably plays a bigger role than Composure.

I would rate the mental attribute in this order: Concentration, Anticipation, Decisions, Positioning, Determination. Why? Because a defensive player first needs to be focused (concentration) to read the play (anticipation), make a decision (decisions) and position himself accordingly (positioning). We can throw in there Marking as well, because he needs to be either marking his zone or a player near by properly. If that hasn't led a player to make an interception, then he needs to tackle the ball. Then his tackling, determination, aggression, bravery and strength would determine the outcome of that tackle. Composure may help the player on the ball who is facing the tackle or needs to avoid it.

So I still have to disagree with your studies then, respectfully. And I'm sorry if this is insulting to you.

[Cleon]

Look I'm getting bored of this so this really is my last post on it. We are just going around in circles and I don't like when people start reading between the lines and making out I've said something I haven't.

Now you make it look like composure is more important attribute than decisions.....for all players. What does the decisions attribute do? Doesn't it affect players' decisions the most?

No I'm not making out its more important. But if he has low composure then his decision making will be rushed. Decisions control everything but how calm and what determines if he panics or not is composure. In no way did I make out composure was more important, but it's just as important. The fact is, you are reading between the lines and taking posts out of context.

Let me clarify this. A player with 15 for composure and 10 for decisions would make a better decision on an action, then another player with 10 for composure and 15 for decisions? And if making a tackle, his tackling attribute has less to do with it than his composure? That doesn't make sense.....

And this is where the problem lies, with this quote you show the lack of understand that you have with what the attributes do. I've xplained above what composure does for a defender, its his ability to not panic.

In your priority list Cleon, which you posted earlier, you put Decisions before Composure.

And?

Let me refresh your memory....

Thank god you did that, I can't remember anything or read what I've wrote, so thanks for that.

your list was: Positioning, Decisions, Composure, Concentration, Anticipation, Determination, Marking, Tackling, Strength. Do you stand by that priority list? I assume it is based on your studies. So Decisions is more important than Composure according to that list. But now in this reply you say different

Where did I say composure was more imporant than decisions? Show me, show me where. If you actually read what I put about composure it was in regards to your scenario and I pointed out that the composed player would make the better decision if composure and decisions were equal.

Decisions is about making the right choice but composure effects how rushed the decisions is. What's hard to grasp about that?

I don't know how you got that my reply was any different, I said nothing of the kind.

I would rate the mental attribute in this order: Concentration, Anticipation, Decisions, Positioning, Determination. Why? Because a defensive player first needs to be focused (concentration) to read the play (anticipation), make a decision (decisions) and position himself accordingly (positioning).

Don't agree.

Firstly he needs to be in a good enough position and he needs to be able to pick the right decisions, whether than be where he thinks he should be positioned to cut off the threat or what he thinks is right (these 2 are hand in hand and you could argue decisions should be first, but decisions is first for everything anyway really.). That's why decisions and composure are next. He also needs the ability to stay focused and not take his eye off the ball, hence why concentration was next. Then and only then he needs to anticipate the movement and all the attributes mentioned before help make sure he choose the correct one.

If you have a mentally strong player who is very good but has poor positioning, see how he reacts in a game. He gets it wrong a lot of the time and is always half a yard behind play. Why? Because his start position was wrong. No matter how good a player is, if hes positioned wrong to begin with then he's no good. It's quite easy to spot if you look in your own games.

So I still have to disagree with your studies then, respectfully. And I'm sorry if this is insulting to you.

Not insulting at all, but I don't agree with you and have posted examples in the thread (main thread) of the attributes working. If you disagree I'd like to see your own studies in action and been discussed to disprove what I've written. Until then, I think I'll stick to how I play and the way I believe the attributes to work. As it works for me and I've not seen anything posted to prove otherwise.

I'll not be replying to any more of your posts on the matter though, as its clear we aren't going to agree. Feel free to post on a different subject though.

[Steve Odom]

Cleon, I've got something on my mind and I'm curious to your opinion. It's about the off the ball attribute. You wrote: ...this is how well a player, particularly attacking ones, can assess a situation and then move off the ball, making themselves available to receive a pass in a dangerous position. But do you think it is also useful for midfielders? And I don't mean midfielders running into the oppositions area, but for midfielders to make themselves available for a pass, not in a dangerous position. I think that it is essential for midfielders to find space on the pitch, where they can receive the ball and pass it on. It would make sense if off the ball is important here, but I don't play enough full length matches to be sure. Perhaps you know more...

A Midfielder should have a high off the ball attribute if he is to make himself available in a place where it is difficult to do so. the higher up the pitch, the more difficult it becomes. that's why the ore attacking oriented players need a higher off the ball.

[gian]

Cleon,

Just a few doubts about the tactic.

If I understood correctly, despite diferent roles that each players occupies within the tactic there are a few instructions that are common to every position. No player holds on to the ball, no tight marking for any sector (all team plays on zonal marking I believe) of the field and shoots from distance are in rare for everyone. Is this correct Cleon?

[Cleon]

Cleon,

Just a few doubts about the tactic.

If I understood correctly, despite diferent roles that each players occupies within the tactic there are a few instructions that are common to every position. No player holds on to the ball, no tight marking for any sector (all team plays on zonal marking I believe) of the field and shoots from distance are in rare for everyone. Is this correct Cleon?

Yups that's correct. I'm not a fan of tight marking and I hate players who take long shots all the time as it wastes good opportunities

[yonko]

Look I'm getting bored of this so this really is my last post on it. We are just going around in circles and I don't like when people start reading between the lines and making out I've said something I haven't.

I don't see anything wrong with reading between the lines.

No I'm not making out its more important. But if he has low composure then his decision making will be rushed. Decisions control everything but how calm and what determines if he panics or not is composure. In no way did I make out composure was more important, but it's just as important. The fact is, you are reading between the lines and taking posts out of context.

And this is where the problem lies, with this quote you show the lack of understand that you have with what the attributes do. I've xplained above what composure does for a defender, its his ability to not panic.

I understand what composure is and what decision is.

And?

Thank god you did that, I can't remember anything or read what I've wrote, so thanks for that.

No need to be sarcastic.

Where did I say composure was more imporant than decisions? Show me, show me where. If you actually read what I put about composure it was in regards to your scenario and I pointed out that the composed player would make the better decision if composure and decisions were equal.

But in my scenario composure and decisions are not equal. It looks like you can't read what I post.

Player A: Composure = 15, Decisions = 10

Player B: Composure = 10, Decisions = 15

How are composure and decisions equal in this scenario? They are not. You say Player A will make the better choice, because he is calmer. He is but his ability to make decision is worse, despite being calm. Just because he is calm doesn't mean he is more likely to make a better decision than Player B.

Decisions is about making the right choice but composure effects how rushed the decisions is. What's hard to grasp about that?

It isn't hard to grasp what the two attributes do. But it is hard to accept that higher composure leads to better decision than higher decision attribute.

I don't know how you got that my reply was any different, I said nothing of the kind.

You choose the player with higher Composure over the player with higher Decisions, that's how.

Don't agree.

Firstly he needs to be in a good enough position and he needs to be able to pick the right decisions, whether than be where he thinks he should be positioned to cut off the threat or what he thinks is right (these 2 are hand in hand and you could argue decisions should be first, but decisions is first for everything anyway really.). That's why decisions and composure are next. He also needs the ability to stay focused and not take his eye off the ball, hence why concentration was next. Then and only then he needs to anticipate the movement and all the attributes mentioned before help make sure he choose the correct one.

First he needs to be in good enough position and then he needs to make the right decision? Your order of action starts illogical right from the start IMO. How does a player decide which position to take? See, before taking a position, he needs to decide which position to take. Based on what? Based on what the opposition does and what his teammates do. So he has to observe what is going on and read the play. That is where he is using his Anticipation. But to be able to do that he needs to be focused enough, therefore the player needs to use his Concentration. So the correct and logical order of action requires the following mental attributes: Concentration --> Anticipation --> Decision --> Positioning -->

First you say Positioning is before Decisions, then you try to correct yourself by saying Decisions comes first for everything. Decisions are based on observations and perceptions. To make them the player needs to stay focused and read the play. Only then he can decide a course of action and what position is best to take for action.

If you have a mentally strong player who is very good but has poor positioning, see how he reacts in a game. He gets it wrong a lot of the time and is always half a yard behind play. Why? Because his start position was wrong. No matter how good a player is, if hes positioned wrong to begin with then he's no good. It's quite easy to spot if you look in your own games.

Yes, if a player is mentally strong, but has poor positioning then he gets it wrong. But he can also get it wrong if he has bad Decisions. Or if he doesn't ready the play correctly, i.e low Anticipation. Or if he isn't focused, i.e. lack of Concentration.

Not insulting at all, but I don't agree with you and have posted examples in the thread (main thread) of the attributes working. If you disagree I'd like to see your own studies in action and been discussed to disprove what I've written. Until then, I think I'll stick to how I play and the way I believe the attributes to work. As it works for me and I've not seen anything posted to prove otherwise.

I'm using logical order based on what each attribute does. Your studies seem to lead you to order of action for defensive play that is not logical.

I'll not be replying to any more of your posts on the matter though, as its clear we aren't going to agree. Feel free to post on a different subject though.

You say that but you also want me to present my own studies and discuss why I disagree with you. I can only agree that we wont agree on this subject. But thanks for keeping the door open for discussions on other subjects.

[Cleon]

Still dont agree, now leave the discussion please I can't be bothered to discuss things with you any longer, its boring going around in circles. Were not going to agree. I'll gladly continue though if you provide visual proof to back up your claims. Then I'll gladly discuss it with you all day long.

[Steve Odom]

Yes, if a player is mentally strong, but has poor positioning then he gets it wrong. But he can also get it wrong if he has bad Decisions. Or if he doesn't ready the play correctly, i.e low Anticipation. Or if he isn't focused, i.e. lack of Concentration.

Or if he panics, i.e. lack of composure. they are all equally important. My Bayern squad is very composed and it's much easier for them to play the ball out of defence, head it away properly and even to win it back, than it was with the other teams I've maanged in FM. So to me composure is very important.

[mikcheck]

One of the things that makes me reall angry is when my defence just give the ball away with a long silly pass for nowhere when there is much easier and better options near him. That is low composure in action right?

[yonko]

Still dont agree, now leave the discussion please I can't be bothered to discuss things with you any longer, its boring going around in circles. Were not going to agree. I'll gladly continue though if you provide visual proof to back up your claims. Then I'll gladly discuss it with you all day long.

Can your studies provide visual proof that Composure is more important than Anticipation or Decisions? Can your studies provide proof that Positioning and Decisions come first (in order of action, not importance) before Concentration and Anticipation?

Just to make it clear, I don't dismiss Composure completely as playing some role. I just disagree with you how important it is, specifically I disagree that is more important than Concentration and Anticipation for making good defensive plays. I believe that a defensive player with high Concentration, Anticipation, Decisions, Positioning, Marking and Tackling can compensate for a little lower Composure attribute. But I don't think higher Composure can compensate for lower Concentration or/and lower Anticipation, or lower Marking or/and Tackling, or lower Decisions.

[Kamil-S]

Can your studies provide visual proof that Composure is more important than Anticipation or Decisions?

Is it possible to provide any visual proof in this case? Attribute can't be isolated from others during the match. However at some level of abstraction it's fair to say that positioning and composure are elemental attributes for defender (because I can imagine myself very limited defender without other attributes still doing well his limited job).

[Cleon]

Can your studies provide visual proof that Composure is more important than Anticipation or Decisions? Can your studies provide proof that Positioning and Decisions come first (in order of action, not importance) before Concentration and Anticipation?

Just to make it clear, I don't dismiss Composure completely as playing some role. I just disagree with you how important it is, specifically I disagree that is more important than Concentration and Anticipation for making good defensive plays. I believe that a defensive player with high Concentration, Anticipation, Decisions, Positioning, Marking and Tackling can compensate for a little lower Composure attribute. But I don't think higher Composure can compensate for lower Concentration or/and lower Anticipation, or lower Marking or/and Tackling, or lower Decisions.

I've asked you to leave it, you're boring me and I've spent far too much time on this with you. I find it ironic though that you've posted a few times about defensive frallties in your own side and can't get something to work. Yet I follow my approach and don't have the issues. Just goes to show eh?!!!

[faraowww]

I like the general idea of this topic, but I'm still not sure how to judge the attributes. I understand what all attributes do and I agree with Cleon's reasoning about which one's are important. But then, is it better to have a high average of important attributes or to have a higher minimum (16,13,8 vs 12,12,12).

Perhaps the question is too simplified and might differ for different types of attributes and tactics, but I think it is a fundamental question of how we should look at attributes and judge players. Situations differ, but there should be a logical system in the game mechanics.

[yonko]

I've asked you to leave it, you're boring me and I've spent far too much time on this with you. I find it ironic though that you've posted a few times about defensive frallties in your own side and can't get something to work. Yet I follow my approach and don't have the issues. Just goes to show eh?!!!

That has nothing to do with the attributes of my players or my understanding and preference for them though. The fact that your try this way to prove something is more telling. Poor attempt on your part for a jab below the belt.

The "something" I tried to do and failed was something I've never done before, ever. That is playing with 3 defenders rather than 4. With pretty much the same quality of players I tried and have succeeded in making a 4-2-3-1 work as good as and even better than my usual 4-1-2-2-1/4-3-3 approach that I've used ever since CM. BTW, I've never even used a flat 4-4-2 either. I've tried something different than my usual approach and I'm pretty happy with the outcome.

My aim with Barcelona was to score as many goals as possible while conceding as little as possible and still have majority of possession. Not hard to do, but not easy either. FYI, so far in my third season after 29 games played my team averages 4.5 goals for and 0.6 goals against. I have a super-team where everyone plays, everyone is match fit (unless injured), everyone is happy and contributing to the success. I did it on my own, my way, without your help or studies. Again, sorry if that insults you or hurts your reputation.

I will not pretend I know it all or that my successful new approach deserves to be shared in great details in the form of a study or theory of some sorts, because I don't feel the need to gain some sort of great recognition from others on this forum. But I'm happy to share some bits and pieces as I see necessary whenever certain threads are started or questions raised.

I'm sorry if logical thinking and 2 decades of experiencing this virtual game (as well as the real game) is boring you and going against your studies. Just to add, I have playing and coaching experience in the real World, professionally.

[yonko]

I like the general idea of this topic, but I'm still not sure how to judge the attributes. I understand what all attributes do and I agree with Cleon's reasoning about which one's are important. But then, is it better to have a high average of important attributes or to have a higher minimum (16,13,8 vs 12,12,12).

Perhaps the question is too simplified and might differ for different types of attributes and tactics, but I think it is a fundamental question of how we should look at attributes and judge players. Situations differ, but there should be a logical system in the game mechanics.

Apparently there isn't a logical system in the game mechanics, according to some.

[faraowww]

Apparently there isn't a logical system in the game mechanics, according to some.

I don't want to get involved in that discussion, but what are your thoughts on my point?

[Steve Odom]

I like the general idea of this topic, but I'm still not sure how to judge the attributes. I understand what all attributes do and I agree with Cleon's reasoning about which one's are important. But then, is it better to have a high average of important attributes or to have a higher minimum (16,13,8 vs 12,12,12).

Perhaps the question is too simplified and might differ for different types of attributes and tactics, but I think it is a fundamental question of how we should look at attributes and judge players. Situations differ, but there should be a logical system in the game mechanics.

It really depends for me. If you know the weakness of your players, you light be able to overcome it by using a different approach. You can't put it as simple as a high total versus a high minumum attribute, I'm affraid.

[Steve Odom]

Apparently there isn't a logical system in the game mechanics, according to some.

And who might that be?

[Cleon]

Apparently there isn't a logical system in the game mechanics, according to some.

Can you just let it go please? Stop trying to ruin the thread, if it continues I'll just remove posts like this. You don't agree with me fair enough and I'll never agree with your view either. But lets just move on, going round in circles makes me dizzy

I like the general idea of this topic, but I'm still not sure how to judge the attributes. I understand what all attributes do and I agree with Cleon's reasoning about which one's are important. But then, is it better to have a high average of important attributes or to have a higher minimum (16,13,8 vs 12,12,12).

Perhaps the question is too simplified and might differ for different types of attributes and tactics, but I think it is a fundamental question of how we should look at attributes and judge players. Situations differ, but there should be a logical system in the game mechanics.

You should try and get the player who has the most higher important attributes for the area and role you want him to play. But at the same time, you should try and get players that compliment each other. For example if you have a defender who is good at reading the game but isn't good from an aerial point. Then you should try and partner him with someone who can make up for that and who can deal with the aerial side of the game. That way you create balance throughout the team. If you have 2 player's playing in the same position who are simliar types of players and have the same weaknesses then things will be tricky in certain situations. So ideally the 2 players should compliment each other.

[Cleon]

One of the things that makes me reall angry is when my defence just give the ball away with a long silly pass for nowhere when there is much easier and better options near him. That is low composure in action right?

It might be, is the player been closed down at the time? You say the player has better options near him, are they unmarked?

What are his attributes like? Does he have good teamwork?

What passing does he have set?

[mikcheck]

Cleon, yes, sometimes when my defenders are being closed down and then they just do that. Most of the times they have better options like my dmc for example or my DLP who is allowed to roam and looking for space ( he has good off the ball, decisions, and positioning).

Teamwork shouldn't be a problem, except for one central defender.Fullbacks have both 20, and central defenders have 15 and 8.They all have pretty good mental attributes but composure it's not very strong, they have something like 16,13,12,12.

Passing is in the last notch of short for central defenders and first notch of mixed for fullbacks.

[Cleon]

Cleon, yes, sometimes when my defenders are being closed down and then they just do that. Most of the times they have better options like my dmc for example or my DLP who is allowed to roam and looking for space ( he has good off the ball, decisions, and positioning).

Teamwork shouldn't be a problem, except for one central defender.Fullbacks have both 20, and central defenders have 15 and 8.They all have pretty good mental attributes but composure it's not very strong, they have something like 16,13,12,12.

Passing is in the last notch of short for central defenders and first notch of mixed for fullbacks.

Is it one particular defender doing it more often than the others? Is it the one with low teamwork?

But yeah judging by what you've said it's a composure issue and the players are panicking. The one with 16 composure should be fine, but the others will panic more as the opposition get closer to him.

[mikcheck]

Is it one particular defender doing it more often than the others? Is it the one with low teamwork?

But yeah judging by what you've said it's a composure issue and the players are panicking. The one with 16 composure should be fine, but the others will panic more as the opposition get closer to him.

Thanks. Yes i guess it must be composure, i think it happens more with the right FB. Not so much in the one with low teamwork because normally the DMC is close to him for a easy pass. Maybe tempo also play a role in this situation as I play pretty quick tempo ( 15 in the slider) because i have a strong mental team and i like to play one touch football and sometimes that may makes them rush things.

[yonko]

Can you just let it go please? Stop trying to ruin the thread, if it continues I'll just remove posts like this. You don't agree with me fair enough and I'll never agree with your view either. But lets just move on, going round in circles makes me dizzy

You know what, you can go ahead and remove all my posts from this thread, all of them. I don't want anyone to read them. And I don't want them to be a part of your thread.

[Cleon]

Thanks. Yes i guess it must be composure, i think it happens more with the right FB. Not so much in the one with low teamwork because normally the DMC is close to him for a easy pass. Maybe tempo also play a role in this situation as I play pretty quick tempo ( 15 in the slider) because i have a strong mental team and i like to play one touch football and sometimes that may makes them rush things.

Aye tempo plays a big part as it also increases how rushed and fast the actual ball is passed.

[faraowww]

You should try and get the player who has the most higher important attributes for the area and role you want him to play. But at the same time, you should try and get players that compliment each other. For example if you have a defender who is good at reading the game but isn't good from an aerial point. Then you should try and partner him with someone who can make up for that and who can deal with the aerial side of the game. That way you create balance throughout the team. If you have 2 player's playing in the same position who are simliar types of players and have the same weaknesses then things will be tricky in certain situations. So ideally the 2 players should compliment each other.

That's a very good point, but I mean something slightly different. For example take finishing. To be able to finish, a player needs finishing, but also technique, composure and decisions (perhaps more, but that's not the point now). How important are all these attributes for finishing then? Can you say that composure and finishing are equally important, and technique is only half as important? The game mechanics will have to make a calculation based on these attributes. We can't be a 100% correct about it, and other variables play a role, but do you think it is possible to make a decent estimation?

[Cleon]

That's a very good point, but I mean something slightly different. For example take finishing. To be able to finish, a player needs finishing, but also technique, composure and decisions (perhaps more, but that's not the point now). How important are all these attributes for finishing then? Can you say that composure and finishing are equally important, and technique is only half as important? The game mechanics will have to make a calculation based on these attributes. We can't be a 100% correct about it, and other variables play a role, but do you think it is possible to make a decent estimation?

Finishing is the ability to get the ball on target. So someone with a low finishing will always hit it off target or places the keeper can get. A higher finishing would get it on target but make it harder for the keeper. This is purely the ability of the player to perform an accurate shot – Composure and Decisions will also impart on the ability of a player to score consistently. Composure so he stays calm and doesn't panic and decisions to choose the right shot at the right time.

There all important in some capacity

[Steve Odom]

I was a bit puzzled. I'm managing in the Faroe islands a lot. Last save I had there was with a lower league (3th division) with Undrid. My top goalscorer (poacher) had "1" in finishing (wich was the reason why he broke into my squad during an injury crisis) but decent stats in composure (8) and technique (7), acceleration (12) and pace (10). He scored a lot of goals, sometimes three or for in a game. I've never seen him miss easy chances. He made me conclude that composure is more important when executing a sitter and finishing and technique play a bigger role in more difficult shots. Any thoughts on this?

[Cleon]

I was a bit puzzled. I'm managing in the Faroe islands a lot. Last save I had there was with a lower league (3th division) with Undrid. My top goalscorer (poacher) had "1" in finishing (wich was the reason why he broke into my squad during an injury crisis) but decent stats in composure (8) and technique (7), acceleration (12) and pace (10). He scored a lot of goals, sometimes three or for in a game. I've never seen him miss easy chances. He made me conclude that composure is more important when executing a sitter and finishing and technique play a bigger role in more difficult shots. Any thoughts on this?

Well you have to remember that the oppositions stats are also lower, so even though he only has 1 finishing his other stats seems quite high for the level your playing. So the keepers will have poor positioning who you play against which kind of offsets some of his poor finishing. Does that kind of make sense for you? But yeah if he is capable of keeping calm and not panicking then he has the advanatge over a keeper. Especially when its an easy chance like you've been seeing in your own games. It makes perfect sense that finsihing and technique would play more of a role in difficult shots. As it's the ability to find the target to begin with.

The same can be said for all the technical stats really. As that's a players ability to the said action. How well its executed is down to metal attributes (and physicals in certain scenarios)

[Steve Odom]

Another example of Mental>Technical?

[Cleon]

Another example of Mental>Technical?

Indeed.

Technicals are good obviously but you don't find many players who excel at both. The same can be said IRL, it's only the likes of Messi who are well rounded.

[mikcheck]

Cleon, would you sign a player with awesome mental attributes, plus passing, technique and first touch but with low determination? Low like 9 or 10 with 25 yr old.