Marz Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 I want this too, for sure. More so horizontally, rather than vertically, so I can put one winger closer inside than out. I'd find this so much more simple than setting mentalities. Mentalities would do next to nothing anyway in terms of positional play horizontally (left <-> right); putting one winger closer inside than out. So extra vertical positions would be needed for this (left <-> right) positional play to occur. What we have got right now hug touchline, move into channels and cut inside, are movement instructions. Rather that positional instructions like putting a winger closer inside (Line6 MRC or AMRC). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
onebelo Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 i dont understand why the tactics screen isnt layed out in two pages, When in Possesion and When not in Possession. seriously this is so simple yet so important to a gameplan. i like to play 4-1-2-3 and while it may start out like that, when im in possession i want my 2 cbs to go very wide to create space for the attack, with the DM dropping a lil deep to receieve a pass if needed, and my full backs turning in to wide midfielders. in possession this would turn into a very wide 2-1-2-2-1 essentially but when i lose the ball i want to set defensive tactics and what my players should do solely without the ball. i would make my top line hold a more rigid structure but with some hard pressing up top. turning into a narrow 4-1-4-1. seriously this is something so basic yet SO IMPORTANT that i cant believe its not in! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
onebelo Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 i dont understand why the tactics screen isnt layed out in two pages, When in Possesion and When not in Possession. seriously this is so simple yet so important to a gameplan. i like to play 4-1-2-3 and while it may start out like that, when im in possession i want my 2 cbs to go very wide to create space for the attack, with the DM dropping a lil deep to receieve a pass if needed, and my full backs turning in to wide midfielders. in possession this would turn into a very wide 2-1-2-2-1 essentially but when i lose the ball i want to set defensive tactics and what my players should do solely without the ball. i would make my top line hold a more rigid structure but with some hard pressing up top. turning into a narrow 4-1-4-1. seriously this is something so basic yet SO IMPORTANT that i cant believe its not in! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerhgrrrrrr Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 i dont understand why the tactics screen isnt layed out in two pages, When in Possesion and When not in Possession. seriously this is so simple yet so important to a gameplan. i like to play 4-1-2-3 and while it may start out like that, when im in possession i want my 2 cbs to go very wide to create space for the attack, with the DM dropping a lil deep to receieve a pass if needed, and my full backs turning in to wide midfielders. in possession this would turn into a very wide 2-1-2-2-1 essentially but when i lose the ball i want to set defensive tactics and what my players should do solely without the ball. i would make my top line hold a more rigid structure but with some hard pressing up top. turning into a narrow 4-1-4-1. seriously this is something so basic yet SO IMPORTANT that i cant believe its not in! This is a commonly held opinion. It seems SI jusy cannot implement it even now although in CM2001/2 they had a similar system, despite any faults it may have had. Also whilst I understand that setting barrow/farrows via the formation display can cause unrealistic tactics to gain an advantage through ME exloitation surely the time is right to at least use barrow/farrows to indicate the positional movement that the team & player tactics are implementing, in other words purely as a display device rather thatn a tactical tool. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
onebelo Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 that doesnt surprise me it is a commonly held opinion. it should be the highest priority for football manager 2012. I want my wingers track back when not in possesion but i also want them to attack minded, this basically ends up with them not doing any defending or always staying back. no possession/possession tactics would fix so many problems. but i dont understand your idea, why does that matter if its purely a display device? plus i dont even use the arrows as dont u need to be in classic view to grt arrows? (im new to fm) also just to add another idea for matches: - Free Roam Role, id like to have a winger (mata because i support chelsea) who drifts everywhere around the pitch (no, the free roam option doesnt do this) - more spots on the pitch. right now i think there'd be 5 straight lines on the pitch, they should make it 7 lines so i can have my wingers a little more inside, but not to inside so that they count as forwards. i find my wingers far to isolated for what i try to achieve with my play - better finishing - ive had a few seasons at chelsea now at Torres shooting and mental are roughly around 16/17 yet my god does he miss his 1v1's. i wont say anymore on this because i did read the alread large thread concerning this bug. - generally more options/sliders.. whatever options they put in, add sliders! like my wingers, if i choose cut inside, i dont want to ALWAYS cut inside, so make a slider of rarely to often for cut inside/hug touch line. more options/personalisation is only a good thing. sorry i dont know if this a recommendation thread but these things stood out to me after my first few seasons Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazaru5 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 i dont understand why the tactics screen isnt layed out in two pages, When in Possesion and When not in Possession. seriously this is so simple yet so important to a gameplan. i like to play 4-1-2-3 and while it may start out like that, when im in possession i want my 2 cbs to go very wide to create space for the attack, with the DM dropping a lil deep to receieve a pass if needed, and my full backs turning in to wide midfielders. in possession this would turn into a very wide 2-1-2-2-1 essentially but when i lose the ball i want to set defensive tactics and what my players should do solely without the ball. i would make my top line hold a more rigid structure but with some hard pressing up top. turning into a narrow 4-1-4-1. seriously this is something so basic yet SO IMPORTANT that i cant believe its not in! This is a commonly held opinion. It seems SI jusy cannot implement it even now although in CM2001/2 they had a similar system, despite any faults it may have had. Also whilst I understand that setting barrow/farrows via the formation display can cause unrealistic tactics to gain an advantage through ME exloitation surely the time is right to at least use barrow/farrows to indicate the positional movement that the team & player tactics are implementing, in other words purely as a display device rather thatn a tactical tool. that doesnt surprise me it is a commonly held opinion. it should be the highest priority for football manager 2012. I want my wingers track back when not in possesion but i also want them to attack minded, this basically ends up with them not doing any defending or always staying back. no possession/possession tactics would fix so many problems.but i dont understand your idea, why does that matter if its purely a display device? plus i dont even use the arrows as dont u need to be in classic view to grt arrows? (im new to fm) also just to add another idea for matches: - Free Roam Role, id like to have a winger (mata because i support chelsea) who drifts everywhere around the pitch (no, the free roam option doesnt do this) - more spots on the pitch. right now i think there'd be 5 straight lines on the pitch, they should make it 7 lines so i can have my wingers a little more inside, but not to inside so that they count as forwards. i find my wingers far to isolated for what i try to achieve with my play - better finishing - ive had a few seasons at chelsea now at Torres shooting and mental are roughly around 16/17 yet my god does he miss his 1v1's. i wont say anymore on this because i did read the alread large thread concerning this bug. - generally more options/sliders.. whatever options they put in, add sliders! like my wingers, if i choose cut inside, i dont want to ALWAYS cut inside, so make a slider of rarely to often for cut inside/hug touch line. more options/personalisation is only a good thing. sorry i dont know if this a recommendation thread but these things stood out to me after my first few seasons I can't take screenshots of the pitch in FM09, (but I can in FM11 :confused:) but I have my players all set to an attacking mentality and the team instructions are also set to attacking yet my players defend together as a team... the last game I played last evening before going to bed I tried to take a screenie of all my 11 players defending in and around our box but all I got was a black screen so I can't show you that. I also found myself chuckling at one incident when the opposition got behind my defence in the penalty area, the player who eventually tackled the attacker at the byline/6yd box was my World Class striker who's supposed to be the furthest forward (he'd tracked the player...). Now this is in FM09... admittedly using a tactic created in FM11 and regressed, but still... The only thing I can say is it must be your tactics. My players track back, double up, close down, defend from the front, cover for each other and generally play football as one "expects" it to be played.. if yours don't then it's not SI's fault; it simply can't be or mine wouldn't either... *shrugs* For the record they also do the same in FM11 but I've lost interest in that version now... FWIW - try increasing creative freedom on your free-role players to maximum or almost maximum... i.e. "give them their heads" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
onebelo Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 so by what you have said, youve set everything to ATTACK yet for some reason they are disregarding this and do defensive work? i mean ur strikers on at the 6yard box when uve got him on attack totally disregarding your instructions? (for the record this doesnt happen for me at all) anyways its sort of beside the point, if you had 2 options of possession/no possesion then you could use custismise exactly how you want your striker to behave in defense and attack. simply really. but i wont say anymore since its apparently already a big issue around here! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazaru5 Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 so by what you have said, youve set everything to ATTACK yet for some reason they are disregarding this and do defensive work? i mean ur strikers on at the 6yard box when uve got him on attack totally disregarding your instructions? (for the record this doesnt happen for me at all)anyways its sort of beside the point, if you had 2 options of possession/no possesion then you could use custismise exactly how you want your striker to behave in defense and attack. simply really. but i wont say anymore since its apparently already a big issue around here! I think it's more the fluidity - high creative freedom alongside attacking mentalities and high closing down - they work hard for the team FWIW here's the team and individual settings that we currently start games with, the team passing style, mentality and tempo will all change during a match, as will time-wasting sometimes. Everything else is left untouched and the most any slider moves is 3 or 4 clicks to the left (except time-wasting) As mentioned, this was created in FM11's Tactics Creator then converted to classic, tweaked a little, then copied into FM09 and tweaked a little more. With the formation I employ it translates in the Match Engine (in both 09 and 11) into a (fairly) high tempo, short, slick passing game not unlike Barcelona's IRL with a similar sort of work-rate defensively. I even used an FM11 Barca save to tweak it before copying it into the 09 save because I created it with a not very good Championship Hereford team. It was inspired by watching the Champions League Final this year, I thought to myself that I wanted my team to play like that... et voila! EDIT: *Still a Work In Progress* Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
milnerpoint Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 anyways its sort of beside the point, if you had 2 options of possession/no possesion then you could use custismise exactly how you want your striker to behave in defense and attack. simply really. but i wont say anymore since its apparently already a big issue around here! Its not realistic tho, no manager tells a player exactly where to stand when they dont have the ball, and your example of the two center backs pushing out to the full back areas so your center mid can drop back into a center half role to pick up the ball is ludicrous. No team would EVER employ a tactic like that. The arrows were removed for a very good reason, they lead to very unrealistic tactics being created that would pull the ME appart trying to defend against ghosts. Everything you used to be able to do with the arrows you can do now with instructions, at least every realistic thing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paganizer Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Its not realistic tho, no manager tells a player exactly where to stand when they dont have the ball, and your example of the two center backs pushing out to the full back areas so your center mid can drop back into a center half role to pick up the ball is ludicrous. No team would EVER employ a tactic like that. The arrows were removed for a very good reason, they lead to very unrealistic tactics being created that would pull the ME appart trying to defend against ghosts. Everything you used to be able to do with the arrows you can do now with instructions, at least every realistic thing. Maybe you should do a little research before commenting on stuff you obviously have no clue about. Pushing centre backs wide and having the defensive midfielder drop deep might not be common, but is certainly being used. Barcelona has used it on occasion and so has the danish national team and I saw it used by AGF in the danish superleague this weekend. It actually makes a lot of sense. Let me list a couple of them: 1. Centre backs go wide, push full backs op to wing positions and wingers move inside towards the striker (or midfield) - > you get more forward passing options (only 3 in the back when building play) 2. A defensive midfielder (deep lying playmaker type) is much more comfortable on the ball (less error prone) than most central defenders and as such will be the better choice for building play... be it long ball or short pass. Overall an obvious choice if you like to build up play by passing the ball and your central defenders are not that great on the ball and you have a deep lying playmaker. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune_star Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 No team would EVER employ a tactic like that. Exactly what Paganizer says... Barcelona did this A LOT for the past two seasons, as have the Danish national team (among others) for years... This year Guardiola experiments with a new formation (3-4-3), so they're not using it to the same extent this season. It's considered a 'modern' approach to the build up as it gives you way more options during that crucial phase of play for a controlling ball possesing team. It does however come with a risk, as the DMC can get isolated pretty fast if the connecting players are too far apart and opponent presses high and hard on the carrier and the wide DC's. A perfect example of this was given during the World cup in the Denmark - Cameroun game which ended 2-1 to Denmark despite the error seen in this video: Watch the first couple of seconds to see what happens when the goalie recieves the ball. The two DC's move out wide, and the DMC comes deep. Note that you can't see any other Danish players in the screen at the time, as the fullbacks and everybody else are way further up the field. In this example, the Camerounians (?) know what's going on, so Poulsen (DMC) is forced into making that terrible mistake which led to the Cameroun goal But you can find plenty of other examples where that exact same build up is a succes. You're simply overloading the opponent with passing options and players "out of position" making it extremely difficult to counter... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazaru5 Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Maybe you should do a little research before commenting on stuff you obviously have no clue about. Pushing centre backs wide and having the defensive midfielder drop deep might not be common, but is certainly being used. Barcelona has used it on occasion and so has the danish national team and I saw it used by AGF in the danish superleague this weekend. It actually makes a lot of sense. Let me list a couple of them: 1. Centre backs go wide, push full backs op to wing positions and wingers move inside towards the striker (or midfield) - > you get more forward passing options (only 3 in the back when building play) 2. A defensive midfielder (deep lying playmaker type) is much more comfortable on the ball (less error prone) than most central defenders and as such will be the better choice for building play... be it long ball or short pass. Overall an obvious choice if you like to build up play by passing the ball and your central defenders are not that great on the ball and you have a deep lying playmaker. It's not the DM that drops deep to make the three.. when one full-back goes forward the other tucks-in to make 3 at the back, when the other full-back goes forward the roles are reversed. Man Utd do this quite effectively,with Evra pushing up to almost a high winger position with the "winger" tucking in behind the front two, it creates a psuedo 3-2-3-2 formation with the CM's dropping deeper to hold midfield/protect the back three but not into the back-line as you suggest they should. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paganizer Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 It's not the DM that drops deep to make the three.. when one full-back goes forward the other tucks-in to make 3 at the back, when the other full-back goes forward the roles are reversed. Man Utd do this quite effectively,with Evra pushing up to almost a high winger position with the "winger" tucking in behind the front two, it creates a psuedo 3-2-3-2 formation with the CM's dropping deeper to hold midfield/protect the back three but not into the back-line as you suggest they should. Well im sure there are different versions. The asymetric style would work aswell and fits well with the United style. I imagine it depends mostly on what players are available. Also it might suit a "4-4-2" better, whereas the one I described is used mostly by 4-5-1/4-3-3 teams. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
onebelo Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 I think it's more the fluidity - high creative freedom alongside attacking mentalities and high closing down - they work hard for the team FWIW here's the team and individual settings that we currently start games with, the team passing style, mentality and tempo will all change during a match, as will time-wasting sometimes. Everything else is left untouched and the most any slider moves is 3 or 4 clicks to the left (except time-wasting) As mentioned, this was created in FM11's Tactics Creator then converted to classic, tweaked a little, then copied into FM09 and tweaked a little more. With the formation I employ it translates in the Match Engine (in both 09 and 11) into a (fairly) high tempo, short, slick passing game not unlike Barcelona's IRL with a similar sort of work-rate defensively. I even used an FM11 Barca save to tweak it before copying it into the 09 save because I created it with a not very good Championship Hereford team. It was inspired by watching the Champions League Final this year, I thought to myself that I wanted my team to play like that... et voila! EDIT: *Still a Work In Progress* you may have found a nice formation for yourself but you have Attacking high, creative freedom normal and press normal. now why would this indicate for your wingers be tracking back the whole pitch or your Striker to be back at the 6 yard box? this is about YOU choosing what tactics YOUR team does. you havent told any players to behave like what youve said they have done and thats the problem. surely u see my point here... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
onebelo Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Its not realistic tho, no manager tells a player exactly where to stand when they dont have the ball, and your example of the two center backs pushing out to the full back areas so your center mid can drop back into a center half role to pick up the ball is ludicrous. No team would EVER employ a tactic like that. The arrows were removed for a very good reason, they lead to very unrealistic tactics being created that would pull the ME appart trying to defend against ghosts. Everything you used to be able to do with the arrows you can do now with instructions, at least every realistic thing. are you kidding ?? of course they tell them where to position themselves when not in possesion. you think managers dont bother with this part of the game? when ashley cole is not in possession i want to instruct him to run back and help the defence. Yes he may have trouble if he gets caught out or if double teamed but thats sounds hmmm i dont know REALISTIC?? you are crazy. barcelona have been kings of this tactic for the past 2-3 seasons and AVB has played like this all season. infact pretty much every team who plays 4-3-3 employs a tactic similar to this. the CB's play veryyy wide, with 1 middy coming VERY deep, almost as a 3rd CB, with the other middys a tiny further up waiting to receieve the pass and they have space because the full backs turn in Wide Midfielders creating big space in the centre of the park. i dont what youve been doing for the past 4 years, probably playing FM only and not watching real football because this is such a common tactic now Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazaru5 Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 you may have found a nice formation for yourself but you have Attacking high, creative freedom normal and press normal. now why would this indicate for your wingers be tracking back the whole pitch or your Striker to be back at the 6 yard box? this is about YOU choosing what tactics YOUR team does. you havent told any players to behave like what youve said they have done and thats the problem. surely u see my point here... and I think you've misread the tactics... sure the TEAM CF settings might be normal, but the individual player settings are high, even the centre-backs at "normal" CF individual instructions is quite high... same thing applies to individual closing down, all high even though the team setting is a click or two off whole pitch and then all the players (except the keeper atm) have their mentalities set to Attacking (various levels of) - it's probably this setting that makes them want to win the ball because you can't "attack" without it... The team and individual instructions work in-tandem with each other, not either/or as so many people seem to think... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobble2002 Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 No sign of being able to give a single player instructions from the sideline so far . IE being able to tell a player to buck his ideas up or you will sub him etc or tell him to get stuck in with the tackles Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginola* Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Doesn't look like any new revolutionary changes, just a lot of common sense ones that will make things a lot easier, cut out the annoying stuff and make the tactics less time consuming. This imo is a good thing Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriisy Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 This looks fantastic, can't wait Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilljons Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 Im a bit bummed out that you cant do the busquets-role which many teams in the modern football employ. What i mean is ofc where the dm drops in between the DC's in possession, the DC spread and the wingbacks push up making it more of a 3-4-3 formation attacking. Biggest disappointment imo. I think that the ME should evolve as the modern football does. At least for me it's a big factor to be able to emulate RL tactics. Otherwise FM12 looks good, but this is a big downer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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