4-2-3-1 Formation

[SFraser]

Not to derail this thread but in your opinion WWFan is Creative Freedom an offensive bias or a perception/technical difficulty bias? I have been playing around with Maximum Creative Freedom and it seems to me that events allowed through Maximum Creative Freedom are not inherantly riskier yet seem more aggressive. I have seen some audacious means of maintaining possession in tight areas and offensive moves that were far less risky in their apparent nature than less creative moves in the same context. From what I have seen Creative Freedom is not necessarilly offensively oriented untill coupled with offensive instructions, though no doubt there is a definate element of risk in high Creative Freedom. I would appreciate your opinion on this.

[wwfan]

Not to derail this thread but in your opinion WWFan is Creative Freedom an offensive bias or a perception/technical difficulty bias? I have been playing around with Maximum Creative Freedom and it seems to me that events allowed through Maximum Creative Freedom are not inherantly riskier yet seem more aggressive. I have seen some audacious means of maintaining possession in tight areas and offensive moves that were far less risky in their apparent nature than less creative moves in the same context. From what I have seen Creative Freedom is not necessarilly offensively oriented untill coupled with offensive instructions, though no doubt there is a definate element of risk in high Creative Freedom. I would appreciate your opinion on this.

It's a flair boost, which encourages players to do different things. The most noticeable effect is FCs' finishing. With low CF, they will always try a standard finish, which can lead to many missed chances against high quality defences/keepers, as they become easy to read/defend against. With higher CF, they will aim to try different things (early shot, faked shot, chip, lob, screamer, passed shot, rounding the keeper etc) which can, with the right FC, maximise goal scoring potential. Encouraging players to try flair-based moves in defensive areas of the pitch can be risky, but with a good team can still work in your favour. However, with a team of limited technical and mental ability, high CF at the back, and indeed in all areas of the pitch, can be massively unproductive.

In short, CF is a must at higher levels, as are free roles. Without these, it becomes very difficult to break down top class defences as your play is simply too predictable. At lower levels, it needs to be used with far more caution as it can disrupt shape and cause moves to break down as players simply aren't capable of pulling off the things they are trying to do or choose to try things at the wrong time. Furthermore, if they do pull it off, their team mates are unable to read it.

[heathxxx]

It's a flair boost, which encourages players to do different things. The most noticeable effect is FCs' finishing. With low CF, they will always try a standard finish, which can lead to many missed chances against high quality defences/keepers, as they become easy to read/defend against. With higher CF, they will aim to try different things (early shot, faked shot, chip, lob, screamer, passed shot, rounding the keeper etc) which can, with the right FC, maximise goal scoring potential. Encouraging players to try flair-based moves in defensive areas of the pitch can be risky, but with a good team can still work in your favour. However, with a team of limited technical and mental ability, high CF at the back, and indeed in all areas of the pitch, can be massively unproductive.

In short, CF is a must at higher levels, as are free roles. Without these, it becomes very difficult to break down top class defences as your play is simply too predictable. At lower levels, it needs to be used with far more caution as it can disrupt shape and cause moves to break down as players simply aren't capable of pulling off the things they are trying to do or choose to try things at the wrong time. Furthermore, if they do pull it off, their team mates are unable to read it.

Although I find that at lower levels, it's also worth comparing your own players attributes to those of your opponents. For example, a finishing & anticipation attributes of only 12 might make your striker one of the best in the Blue Square Premier, so you can maybe afford to go higher with creative freedom.

If you've a high quality team overall, compared to your opponents whatever level or division, arguably you can get away with higher creative freedom settings.

My basis for this opinion is having experimented with teams I've built that are above the average of the lower leagues I'm playing in, whilst also experimenting with squads that are either average or below average. With the above average sides, I can use tactical setting similar to those I might consider using with a top four Premiership side, whilst if average or below average, I may opt for lower settings overall.

In essence, if you're confident you have players with higher attributes than your opponents, you can perhaps afford to risk using more free role instructions and higher overall creative freedom.

That said though, I still base my settings on a player by player basis and according to mainly their technical and mental attributes. If neither those areas are sufficiently high enough, it's fair to say that they will fail more often than they'll succeed doing what's asked of them. Something to bear in mind with this is the controlling attribute of technique, which can often decide how well players other attributes work and their execution in areas such as passing, finishing, etc...

[shakeable]

I saw the Uruguay - Brazil match recently. It's the match where Daniel Alves scored on a long range effort that Vilar failed to save.

Brazil started the match with the normal 4-4-2 box formation but after the first goal by Alves they became very defensive and counted on 4 players remaining up high to make counter attack after counter attack.

What i saw was more like the 4-2-3-1 formation. 4 defenders and the two central midfielders taking care of defensive duties and the front four hardly ever helping out in defense. Instead the front four Robinho, Kaka, Elano and Fabiano positioned themselves to always provide the defense with an easy first pass. The way they did this looked more like the 4-2-3-1. They always had one of Robinho, Kaka and Elano in the "channels" Robinho usually on the left wing Elano in the middle and Kaka on the right wing, With Fabiano as the out and out striker.

Almost every time the ball was passed out of defense it went to either Robinho or Kaka on the wings who could turn around and start running at the defense always cutting inside. This created chaos in the Uruguayan defense because as soon as one of the attacking Brazilian midfielders had the ball at his feet the other three Brazilian attackers where free to move anywhere they wanted, they where very free in their positioning and it looked like the only instruction they had was that Fabiano was the spearhead forward and he usually tried to brake the defensive line.

So what i am saying is that the 4-2-3-1 might be a really good counter attacking formation in FM since the wingers and the central attacking midfielder doesn't help out much in defense. This leaves a passing option in all channels and should provide the defense with an easy outlet pass. Then follow SFraser's ultimate instructions of full creative freedom, free role, run with ball and try through ball on often for the three attacking midfielders.

This of course will probably fail, epically, if the team doesn't have the offensive talent to make the chances count and the talent of the defense to only defend with 6 men.

[michelco]

I thought the general theme was that one of the 'holding' midfielders is more attack-oriented than the other?

C.

Sure, it would be stupid to hold back one of the midfielders but in Spain the general idea is that they both should be defensive, but one could be a deep lying playmaker and sometimes make forward runs but they should definately be on the same mentality in order to have them work as a unit.

The 4-2-3-1 is supposed to work just as the number say, the '2' is one unit, the '3' is one unit etcetc but that's the general idea though.

[djkid85]

Sure, it would be stupid to hold back one of the midfielders but in Spain the general idea is that they both should be defensive, but one could be a deep lying playmaker and sometimes make forward runs but they should definately be on the same mentality in order to have them work as a unit.

The 4-2-3-1 is supposed to work just as the number say, the '2' is one unit, the '3' is one unit etcetc but that's the general idea though.

Would Valencia in RL be a good example of this?

[michelco]

They would be a perfect example of a spanish 4-2-3-1. With wingers coming inside with and without the ball despite not being played on their 'wrong side' and the use of doble pivote

[djkid85]

In that case, I think it is possible to set the '2' in midfield to work as a unit with the same mentality. I will try to work around this feedback, and get the 4 defenders and 2 midfielders to work as 1 defensive unit with a deep lying playmaker. And the front 3 attacking mids and central striker to work as the singular offensive unit.

[grimness]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2008/dec/18/4231-442-tactics-jonathan-wilson

Might interest few of you.

[edwinteo]

i'm currently starting to create my own 4-2-3-1 system.

i had 1 previously and it worked fine, until the AI cracked it.

......

i ended my 2nd season with the least no. of goals conceded and with the 2nd most goals scored, behind the Gung-ho Arsneal. hahaha

hi all, i have been testing my 4-2-3-1 tactic using Everton in season 3.

won all the friendly matches and am currently unbeaten in the league. beat spurs 2-0 in the charity shield and beat 3 more BPL teams by 2 goals or more, only let in 1 goal in 4 matches. i have controlled majority of possession and maintained passing average above 75%, plus more shots on target and CCCs. most noticeable was 2-0 win away to high flying Aston Villa.

Tactical points i have noticed for this formation.

1) 4 defenders. CBs mentality should be set as the lowest among the team. next higher setting should be 1 DMC. however, DMC have close mentality settings to CBs to avoid roaming too far up the pitch, will explain more later. Marking for back 4 is set on Zonal with tight marking, explain more later.

2 FBs should have at least normal mentality with FWD runs often. i found that setting a slightly higher creative freedom and low mixed passing and through ball set to mixed. this allows them more options when the intercept the ball in defence, rather than just clear the ball out of play, got this idea from this thread. also crossing is set to often but cross from mixed. i found that when the FBs stretch the defence, they create better chances whipping in the early cross, not so much when they get to the byline. the defence usually is packed in the box by then. many times, the cross gets to the far post for my players to tap in.

2) 2 DMC, double pivot. i set 1 DMC as deep lying playmaker. high normal mentality, with high normal creative freedom, with mixed passing. i only put through ball on mixed, cos i noticed that he is far below on the pitch and i want to maintain possession, the mixed passing would allow him to pass upfield if a good opportunity arises. he is also on free role, and my GK is set to distribute to him. i noticed that he is always free to receive passes from his team mates.

the other DMC i set as the destroyer, mentality slightly higher than the CB. everything else is mixed, because the players i have are skilled, fast and tenancious. both DMC are set to frd run mixed, so they can over the pitch higher up and not just abandon the central midfield area for long shots. i also raised the Def line to just below Pushed up to help.

3) 3 Attacking Mids. this is where i tweaked the most to find the optimum in my opinion. all 3 attacking mids have full creative freedom, and through ball on often and Free Roles. cross ball and run with ball on mixed, i will explain why later. mentality wise this is how i set them up. the outside mids, AML and AML, i put just above normal mentality and the AMC on full attacking mentality. Fwd run often for AML and AMR, mixed for AMC. what i found, is that with high mentality and Fwd run often for outside mids, they often receive the ball close to the goal or byline, with no space to operate in. if i reduce fwd runs for them, then they hardly move into space. so i lowered mentality so they start their moves lower down the pitch and gives them more space to operate in.

For the AMC, i dont want him in the penalty box all the time, i need him as the link between attack and midfield. but i want him to still join the attack, when the ball is on the flanks with the FBs, therefore the max mentality.

through ball often for them is so they will be looking to play each other in as first priority, or to the overlapping fullbacks to get the ball behind the defence to whip in a cross.

Now, the run with ball option. i had set it to maximum for these 3 players initially, given their stats. however, i kept seeing them dribble into trouble, ie. into a wall of defenders or straight to the corner for a goal kick. they seem to do that all the time, even when there were better options. sometimes when the defence back off, they wont even shoot, just dribble straight into them. coupled with the lack of space to work in, it got ridiculus. when i lowered the mentality for the AML and AMR and reduced Fwd run for the AMC, plus reduced run with ball to mixed, they started making better decisions, ie. if defender close them down, they would dribble past him and look for options, either shoot or lay the ball off, not trying to dribble the ball into the net. really happy with this discovery!

4) 1 striker. i sold my target man and decided to use a creative fast striker, ie. Goran Pandev. i put him on full attacking mentality and fwd run mixed. normal high creative freedom, all the rest of the settings on mixed plus with hold up ball. no free role, cos i want him to stay in the middle. the full attacking mentality keeps him higher up to allow space for the AMC to work, but limits his offsides.

5) Team settings. passing is set to short for AML, AMC, ST , GK and DMC (destroyer)

Passing is set to low normal for CBs and AMC

Passing is set to normal for FB and DMC (playmaker)

Tempo is set to normal, i tried slow tempo but we looked less dangerous in the final third.

Width, set to just below wide, to allow space for players to run into.

Tackling set to normal for back 4, hard for DMCs and easy for the attackers

Time wasting, i set to often, to allow for more controlled passing and left to right passing.

def line set to just below pushed up. counter attack left unticked. play offside left unticked because only 2 CBs defending, space on the flanks is exposed.

[michelco]

Just to add about Valencia being a perfect example of a 4-2-3-1. They play rather narrow IRL so I've been trying out a 4-4-1-1 (which plays out more like a 4-2-3-1 than an actual in game 4-2-3-1 formation) with a width setting of 6. The idea is to try and have the '3' as a unit rather than two wingers and an amc

[edwinteo]

Just to add about Valencia being a perfect example of a 4-2-3-1. They play rather narrow IRL so I've been trying out a 4-4-1-1 (which plays out more like a 4-2-3-1 than an actual in game 4-2-3-1 formation) with a width setting of 6. The idea is to try and have the '3' as a unit rather than two wingers and an amc

oh, i actually wanted to play the 1 AMC behind the top 3, AML, AMR and ST

[michelco]

Yes, that seems to be what most people do and it works rather well! I'm more into trying to emulate the 4-2-3-1 formation Unai Emery uses with Valencia IRL. Which is more or less how the spanish thinks the 4-2-3-1 should be played. They see it as a unit based formation in which they can make nice tiki taka

[edwinteo]

Yes, that seems to be what most people do and it works rather well! I'm more into trying to emulate the 4-2-3-1 formation Unai Emery uses with Valencia IRL. Which is more or less how the spanish thinks the 4-2-3-1 should be played. They see it as a unit based formation in which they can make nice tiki taka

i initially wanted to do something like that, however, i noticed that the striker got isolated, with 2 CBs marking him. some strong teams, had 1 CB man marking and the other covering the space, so i could not get the ball to him. the wide attackers did not push up as much, so the opposition FB are not put under pressure.

suppose the other way is to get a very mobile and creative forward, who is also strong and big, aka Torres. he can pull defenders away, or receive a ball to feet, turn and make something happen.

unfortunately, most players cant afford Torres. hahaha

i have Goran Pandev, who is decent, but i need the wide attackers to pour into the box to support, plus my FBs to spread the defence.

all my goals have come from the ST and AMC for now. AML and AMR get CCCs but the GK seems to be super human at the moment. hahhaa ... or maybe the angle of their shot is too narrow.

[grimness]

My current idea is using 3 AMCs as most of the spanish wingers are able to play in that position. This way i get them play in to the channels and fullbacks are providing width. In FM09 outer AMCs are drifting wide and good thing is that I can play them on wrong footed side, without need to retrain them. Only need to add PPMs like moves into channel. I'll try high creative freedom and free roles on those three and will experiment with same thing on striker.

I'm still undecided where to put CMs, leave them at MC positions or drag them back to DMC as with 4-2-3-1 Blackburn/Schalke formation.

[GaryGamer]

@ edwinteo

Any chance of a screenshot of 'Team Instructions' ?

What mentality, marking etc.

Many thanks.

[edwinteo]

@ edwinteo

Any chance of a screenshot of 'Team Instructions' ?

What mentality, marking etc.

Many thanks.

i'm not using my home computer at the moment.. so screen shot would not be possible now. what i can do is:

Note: i set my home pitch to largest possible. i do this to allow for widest play when teams park the bus against me. also, because i use pacey defenders, i can push up the def line and still have enough ground behind to catch up with the opposition strikers played through by a long ball and/or my keeper can rush out and intercept

Team Instructions

Team Mentality - N.A, everyone is on individual settings

Team Creative Freedom - N.A, everyone is on individual settings

Passing Style - first notch of short (used by AML, AMR and ST) the rest of the players are referenced to this setting, all increased by somewhat

Tempo - I start with Normal (dead centre), and tweak depending on possession, ie. if the opposition are sitting back and parking the bus, i lower tempo, if opposition are attacking, i increase to catch them on the break

Width - I start with 1 click less of Wide (because of the large pitch, this setting allows my wide midfielders to start wide but then cut in to allow the FBs space on the flanks, also gives my central midfielders more space to operate in)

Time Wasting - Because of the normal tempo, i use first click of Often. i want the players to pass the ball around until a real opportunity arises. coupled with no player having Run with ball often, they move the ball around a lot. With the Width setting, there is plenty of space for them to exploit.

Defence Line - i start 2 clicks below Pushed Up. Because i use 2 DMCs, i need to push the def line higher. if not i would be sacraficing the central midfield area. with the Def line set higher, they are closer to the opposition midfield but not yet abandoning their duty to block the CBs. i do not set it any higher than that, unless the opposition is parking the bus and not attacking at all, then i would change to Push Up. setting Def line too high, will reduce the space ur attackers have to work in.

i do not tick any instructions like play offside, or counter attack, because it is not what i want to do. for defence, i dont want to play offside because i only have 2 CBs, the flanks are too exposed, if the offside trap fails, my CBs will be out of position. i dont play counter attack because i want the play to be built up and calculated, not long punt and chase.

[edwinteo]

Mentality

GK - 10

FB - 12

CB - 8

DMC (D)- 10

DMC (A) - 13

AML - 13

AMR - 13

AMC - 20

ST - 20

Creative Freedom

GK - 6

FB - 9

CB - 6

DMC (D) - 8

DMC (A) - 11

AML - 20

AMR - 20

AMC - 20

ST - 12

Closing Down

GK - 9

FB - 9

CB - 7

DMC (D) - 15

DMC (A) - 11

AML, AMR, AMC, ST - 20

Passing

GK - 6

FB - 8-9

CB - 6

DMC (D) - 10

DMC (A) - 12

AML - 5

AMR - 5

AMC - 8

ST - 5

Fwd Runs

GK - Rarely

FB - Often

CB - Rarely

DMC (D) - Mixed

DMC (A) - Mixed

AML- Often

AMR - Often

AMC - Mixed

ST - Mixed

Run with Ball

GK, CB - Rarely

Everyone else - Mixed

Through Ball

GK, CB - Rarely

FB, DMC, DMC - Mixed

AML, AMR, AMC, ST - Often

Long Shots

GK, CB, AML, AMR, ST - Rarely

DMC, DMC, AMC - Mixed

Cross Ball

GK, CB - Rarely

DMC, DMC, AML, AMR, AMC, ST - Mixed

FB - Often

all cross from mixed, and aim mixed

Tackling

GK, CB, FB - Normal

DMC, DMC - Hard

AML, AMR, AMC, ST - Easy

Tight Mark only for all 4 defenders

*Edit 1*

Opposition Instructions

To aid in defence, i use the following OI

GK - CD always, show onto weaker foot

DL - CD always, show onto right foot

DR - CD always, show onto left foot

DC - CD always, show onto weaker foot

DC - CD always, show onto weaker foot

MC - CD always, Tackle Hard, show onto weaker foot

the rest i leave

[djkid85]

Closing Down

GK - 9

FB - 9

CB - 7

DMC - 15

DMC - 11

AML, AMR, AMC, ST - 20

Out of curiosity, having such high closing down settings for your front 4, does it affect their offensive play and buildup?

[edwinteo]

Out of curiosity, having such high closing down settings for your front 4, does it affect their offensive play and buildup?

actually i thought so, because i have read here, that having high closing down means they will be near the defenders. however, because they are not on tight mark, meaning when we are not in possession, they are not sticking to the defenders. rather, which ever defender has the ball, the closest forward will close him down quickly, ie. but him under pressure. with tackling easy, they will not dive in. the idea is to pressure the defender to make a bad pass.

coupled with my back 4 having tight mark on, (Sorry forgot to mention) my defenders are close the opposition and will win the ball back when the ball is lobbed forward.

also with my time wasting on often, plus normal tempo plus no counter attack. the forwards then to pass the back backwards to the DMCs. only if a real attacking opportunity is there, would they intercept the ball and attack straight away.

also, having the forwards close down the opposition defenders fast and early, due to high def line, my FBs have the time to run back into position to protect the flanks.

[Golden_Team]

edwinteo

your formattion is with 2 mc or 2 dmc?

[Golden_Team]

and could you give screenshot your 4231 please

[edwinteo]

and could you give screenshot your 4231 please

i cant do a screen shot as yet, cos i'm at work, then hitting the gym hard tonite.

my team formation is simply flat 4, 2 DMC, 3 AMs L,R,C and 1 ST

Fwd arrows on the FBs and AML, AMR

[GaryGamer]

@ edwinteo

Good info, thanks!

[Golden_Team]

one more about 4231, becouse i`m not from gb, i have one question for english soccer fan

It is true that cappelo`england use 4231 formation with lampard as MCa and Barry as MCd and rooney as AMC?

And one more thing, Brazil on Confederation Cup also use 4231? or not? ( becouse on eurosport site england and brazil always on graphic as 4231 formation )

Sorry for very poor english

[jaycar]

Maybe, the last time i bothered to watch England it was more or less explained that Barry was indeed the holder, Lampard more an attacking midfielder. Heskey was upfront with Rooney tucked behind. Gerrard was starting from the left but given a free role and drifted inside, although sometimes he seemed to either swap with Rooney or almost play as an extra man behind the ST. Walcott or Lennon stay wide on the right and try to beat the FB and get crosses in.

Soooo...I think it was more like a 4-4-1-1.

[grimness]

Or Queiroz formation

[edwinteo]

@ edwinteo

Good info, thanks!

cheers, just sharing.

any comments are welcome, i like to discuss tactical ideas.

[crouchaldinho]

Maybe, the last time i bothered to watch England it was more or less explained that Barry was indeed the holder, Lampard more an attacking midfielder. Heskey was upfront with Rooney tucked behind. Gerrard was starting from the left but given a free role and drifted inside, although sometimes he seemed to either swap with Rooney or almost play as an extra man behind the ST. Walcott or Lennon stay wide on the right and try to beat the FB and get crosses in.

Soooo...I think it was more like a 4-4-1-1.

Agree with this. However, against Andorra it was more 4-2-3-1 as the wide players were pushed forward. Perhaps the attacking shape might even be described as 4-2-1-3.

Actually, it was more like England playing 0-0-10 and Andorra playing 10-0-0.

But, seriously, I seem to remember that Gerrard was on left wing and drifting on a free role. Walcott started on the right. Beckham and Lampard were in the middle of the park. Rooney playing off Crouch. This is all from memory.

So far in qualifying, however, it has normally been a 4-4-1-1 as jaycar describes.

C.

[TeeWee]

My 2 cts on this interesting discussion.

First, a picture to save me 1000 words...

This is, injuries aside, my first team (Mata on AML, Modric on AMC)

On my daily commute, I've written down a few things to organize my thoughts on this formation.

In possession, I want my team to behave like this:

The heart of my team is the "long triangle" of the DMCs and AMC. They should always be available for an easy pass and they direct the tempo and the flow of the attack. The more creative of my DMCs sometimes has Fwd Runs or Free role to find space. He's encouraged to get into the box at the end of an attack. The other DMC has an evil long shot and stays at the edge.

The two DCs, while perfectly capable of making a good pass, should in principle just pass the ball to one of the DMCs.

My DR (Srna) has loads of attacking strength; I'm experimenting with the right settings for him. My first choice for DL is a regen without real attacking ability. My 2nd choice is Bale, who is better going forwards but a less secure option defending.

My left winger should be all about creativity and through balls, looking for space. My right winger is looking for width and the cross. Seeing that my right winger has Srna as support, I suppose I should turn that around, but I don't have a good "cut inside"-tending winger on the right side (the regen right-footed right winger functions as such on the left if necessary)

My FC roams, leaving holes for others to exploit. I play top EPL and I don't expect him to top the goalscorers charts by any stretch of imagination. But the occasional goal would be nice

Currently, I have 3 free roles. I'm experimenting between AMC, AML and DMC vs AML, FC and DR (to better accommodate Srna).

Off the ball, I want the following:

Wingers track the most dangerous players on the wings.

AMC and FC harrass whoever has the ball.

DMCs are my true ball winners

Back four mop whatever leaks through.

Settings

I use as many Team settings as possible. Global mentality (experimenting whether to drop the AMC a notch or two or to drop the FC a bit). Shortest passing, except for the DMCs (around the center, to combat the DC-DMC passing back and forth syndrome).

The more creative DMC (though both of my DMCs create as well as destroy) either gets forward runs or free role.

Caveats

Using so many free roles, the transition phase where we lose the ball is always dangerous. This is a risk I accept and aim to mitigate by playing a short passing game that avoids giving away possession, as well as having at least one DMC that should be positioned reasonably well to stall the attack.

While I'm having success, I freely admit to have (somewhat inadvertently) used the corner exploit. Only halfway into the season have I actually noticed that the true effectiveness of Fazio the killer-header

Other notes

I want play the "2"-unit at DMC instead of MC, because it gives the back four an easier outlet and because it gives the DMCs more time to distribute play.

I have had some of the problems SFraser alludes to concerning the lone striker-AMC combination. I did have VdVaart occupying nearly the same spot as De Rossi. I'm working on that. My last game seemed a lot better.

My main problem on the ball is that I can't get to activate my FC. I have several options, Milevskyi, Bojan or Paloschi. The rarely get a good ball and score less than I allowed for in my views.

I also had a big problem with the DMCs not bothering the MCs, backing down to stay in front of the back four. I think I've solved this by using a much higher Dline, which automatically puts the DMCs in the right place.

My remaining defending problem is when I get pressured. If I can't keep possession (55% is a minimum for a good game for me), then it starts to look panicked. Because I have 4 players more or less constantly upfield, I'm bound to lose the ball either near my DMC-zone (danger! danger!) or after a long hoof upfield, with the opposition still having all the attacking options on my half.

Final word

I'm really trying to get this to work. Whether or not I succeed makes a huge difference on my next transfer window. If I don't succeed, I'll switch to a 2 striker formation of some sorts, which will automatically mean one true SC purchase (half regretting selling Cardozo now); Benzema probably if the ManCity board is still so generous in June 2013 . If I do succeed, I'll have to aim for a new AMC or AML instead as I'll lack cover in those areas.

[ShirazS]

Does anyone have an issue with the AMC in this formation performing extremely inconsistently and how have you fixed this?

Because I am using Bodmer as an AMC and he either plays well or gets a ratng below 6. I do not use any individual instructions so it cannot be that.

[TeeWee]

I do find he (and the lone striker) are the most inconsistent in terms of ratings in this setup. Goals / assists are the only sure way to get to 6.8+ ratings. I believe AMC seems to get fair ratings if he gets lots of completed passes (talking about 40+ here), among which should be a fair amount of key passes.

[deejay10]

Does anyone have an issue with the AMC in this formation performing extremely inconsistently and how have you fixed this?

Because I am using Bodmer as an AMC and he either plays well or gets a ratng below 6. I do not use any individual instructions so it cannot be that.

Check the stats to see if he's getting involved with the play enough. Sometimes AMC's can get lost on the pitch, especially with a free role, and just never pick up the ball enough. Watch on full match a bit to see his movement, and whether the midfield is supplying him with the ball enough, or if he's too far ahead of the play. Do you want your AMC to be a playmaker or a 2nd striker ?

[merak43]

i am using heathxxx 4-2-3-1 tactic and is havng a blast but as heathxxx him self is unsure about how it will work in the higer levels i think i will change when (if) i get to that level with my oxford united.

(link to the tactic http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=110062)

[robstar69]

Can you guys make the AMC work propperly???

Mine has always bad ratings, 5 and 6es! I know it's something about a rating bug but still!

I find a 4-2-3-1 has to play a good AMC, but when he's got bad ratings i'm tend to switch tacticts.

[crouchaldinho]

Finally got around to playing with this formation.

Having a bit of fun with it using the bands of two mentality structure. Lots of creative freedom for the front four players, free role for the AMC and the AML. And I have the AMR and AML swapping positions so that they switch flanks and sometimes cut inside, or otherwise hug the touchline. Playing some nice football with this.

Just wondering how others set up their AMC? I've given mine a playmaker role and he sits in the hole more making less forward runs than the two wingers. The wingers effectively provide crosses and drift into the box as second strikers. My lone striker is strong and quick and pretty much ideal for this formation.

AMC is on a mixed forward runs with a free role and the same mentality as the rest of the midfield. He has run with the ball often, long shots mixed, through balls often and cross mixed. He hasn't really got going yet but he is a new signing so perhaps it will take a little time.

Otherwise, working very well so far.

Regards,

C.

[Death.]

As a Liverpool supporter i always try and get the 4-2-3-1 going similar to as it might in real-life. The failed attempts just seem to slip out of my head, and for some unknown reason i think i'll be able to crack it the next time. Low and behold it's the first thing i want to do in FM10.

The problem obviously is getting the formation to play properly, rather than just 'look' like a 4-2-3-1 on your tactics screen. Getting the wide players working is difficult, and i've generally tried three formations:

1. --------------------------------------

------------------ GK

----- DR ----- DC ----- DC ----- DL

-------------- DM ---- DM

----- ^ -------------------------. ^ ----

----.. | -------------------------- |

---- AMR -------- AMC --------- AML

------------------ ST

2. --------------------------------------

------------------ GK

----- DR ----- DC ----- DC ----- DL

-------------- DM ---- DM

----- MR ----------------------- ML

------ | -----------------------.. | -----

-----. V --------- AMC .--------- V

------------------ ST

3. --------------------------------------

------------------ GK

----- DR ----- DC ----- DC ----- DL

-------------- DM ---- DM

--------- AMC --- AMC --- AMC

------------------ ST

----------------------------------------

The last one worked best insofar as the '3' played more as a unit, but the 'wide' players of the three were too narrow and didn't offer much towards the flanks which was a problem. They played like AMC's as you'd expect.

The second one was because i couldn't get my AMR/L's to track back whatsoever and the DM's struggled to cope in some instances. It worked but you couldn't really call it a true 4-2-3-1.

The first one was to prevent the wingers from being parallel with the striker, which is definitely not what you want but how most 4-2-3-1's turn out. The advantage is that they hold their position, the disadvantage is that they don't make many attacking runs (considering they are key attacking players). Mixed runs would be a compromise.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with FM10 anyway with things like being able to tell players to 'roam' or 'cut inside' and such. Might help a little with what you can achieve. I still think it would be easier if you had sideways arrows though.

[crouchaldinho]

Well, I'm using a 4-2-3-1 with the following:

------------------ GK

----- DR ----- DC ----- DC ----- DL

-------------- MC---- MC

---- AMR -------- AMC --------- AML

------------------ ST

The reason being that I have decided to follow the Inverting the Pyramid description of the evolution of the 4-2-3-1:

Or the evolution could come from the other direction: a side playing 4-4-2, with the wingers pushed high and one of the centre-forwards dropping deep, is effectively playing a 4-2-3-1.

So, effectively, I've pushed my wide players up to AMR/AML and withdrawn a striker to create my 4-2-3-1.

I think it plays really well, with plenty of possession from the five in midfield. I like good wing play, so I'm keen to see my two wingers getting forward at every opportunity and, as I said before, I like to see them switch flanks so that they sometimes play narrower and cut inside, while other times they hug the line and act like true wingers.

So far, so good. Enjoying the football my side is producing and my lone striker is scoring loads, I think because he is ideal for this system being both very quick and strong.

Regards,

C.

[mag man]

Interesting. I find I can get everyone playing well but my striker doesnt score, AMC gets a bucket load though.

[crouchaldinho]

Interesting. I find I can get everyone playing well but my striker doesnt score, AMC gets a bucket load though.

I'm playing him as a poacher style player, without many instructions set for him, and a mentality a couple of notches ahead of the rest of the team.

Of course, it could be nothing to do with how I have set him up. He is one of the more talented players in my team and has some great stats for the level I am at, so that might be why he is hitting the back of the net so much!

On the other hand, my AMC isn't scoring as much. But I'm playing him in the hole, with a mentality a couple of notches below the striker, and mixed forward runs. He has quite a few instructions, such as run with ball often, long shots sometimes, through balls often and cross ball mixed. He is also on a free role with high creativity. Yet to see the best come from him yet but he is a new signing so maybe needs time to settle.

C.

[crouchaldinho]

The other thing I have found important is to watch how the AMC and ST position themselves. I believe this has something to do with preferred footedness but I cannot seem to work it out, as certain partnerships with the same footedness just seem naturally inclined to position themselves in a certain way. But I always move my more defensive MC to cover the AMC's chosen positioning. Thus, I have a natural staggered effect which gives a nice little set of triangles in the midfield for passing and build up.

Regards,

C.

[James8]

The other thing I have found important is to watch how the AMC and ST position themselves. I believe this has something to do with preferred footedness but I cannot seem to work it out, as certain partnerships with the same footedness just seem naturally inclined to position themselves in a certain way. But I always move my more defensive MC to cover the AMC's chosen positioning. Thus, I have a natural staggered effect which gives a nice little set of triangles in the midfield for passing and build up.

Regards,

C.

This was the same with your 4-4-1-1 set Crouchy. Is this a single 4-2-3-1 tactic you're using or have you produced a set? If you have a set, are you planning to release it? I hope so...

[crouchaldinho]

I've produced a set as follows:

Shut Out - Last 10 minutes to protect a lead

Defend - Switch to during a match to kill a game

Counter - Choice for most games where opponent is attacking

Balanced - Use against teams of same calibre who play balanced

Cautious Attack - Use when attacking but weary of opponent on the break; probably most useful away from home against superior sides

Attack - Standard tactic when you are equal to or superior and the opposition are defending

High Pressure Attack - Use against inferior opponents who are parking the bus

All out Attack - Last 10 minutes to chase a result

Pre-season Balanced - Use during pre-season to avoid injuries etc.

With FM10 around the corner, I won't be releasing it because I think it is a bit late in the day.

If you want a copy though, PM me your address and I will forward them to you in an e-mail, so long as you let me know how you get along.

Same goes for anyone else who is interested.

Regards,

C.

[crouchaldinho]

On the other hand, my AMC isn't scoring as much. But I'm playing him in the hole, with a mentality a couple of notches below the striker, and mixed forward runs. He has quite a few instructions, such as run with ball often, long shots sometimes, through balls often and cross ball mixed. He is also on a free role with high creativity. Yet to see the best come from him yet but he is a new signing so maybe needs time to settle.

C.

Actually changed my AMC's forward runs to often, which has improved his input.

As he has the same mentality as the rest of the midfield, he doesn't get too far ahead of play, but he does make late runs into the box. He also tends to get more involved in interplay with the lone striker. I think it gives more penetration to the team to have him playing almost as a second striker making late runs into the box. He is also more likely to play it into the feet of the striker, then get beyond him to receive the ball, and to score. Vice-versa too, as I've seen the striker pick up the ball, the AMC get beyond him to offer a forward pass, and then play a one-two before picking out the striker's run.

Any thoughts chaps?

Regards,

C.

[crouchaldinho]

I have made some notes on Massimo Lucchesi's book about the 4-2-3-1, which I would like to share here. See below.

Some notes on 4-2-3-1 by Massimo Lucchesi

Four backs, two central midfielders forming a screen in front of the defence, and three attacking midfielders, two of which play on the sides and one in the centre, ready to support the centre-forward.

Can be adapted with small changes, e.g. pull the two wingers back, or push them up to the forward positions.

Attacking midfielder in the centre and the centre forward should have characteristics which support each other. The centre forward should be good at playing with his back to goal, creating space and to shield and protect the ball. The attacking midfielder should be good at penetrating, carrying out passing combinations in small spaces and attacking in depth without the ball.

Characteristics of each role:

Central defenders – typical of a back four.

Side backs – more active in the offensive phase, must have good running and technical skills to penetrated down the flanks.

Central midfielder – Versatile, defensive and covering, similar roles to 4-4-2.

Wingers/side attacking midfielders – Closing down. Penetrating deep upfield, cutting inside or hugging the touchline. Point of reference for the attack. Crossing, penetrating passes, shooting. Good dribbling skills, ability to cross the ball, accurate passing, finishing.

AMC – Help centre-forward apply pressure. Key in the offensive phase. Must complement the centre-forward. Good timing, penetrating runs, attacking space. Good dribbling and make himself available in the build-up phase. Should be good at receiving the ball, able to turn and dribble, passing, switching the point of attack and good finishing. Technically skilled and tactically clever, his physical skills are not as important.

Centre-forward – Receive and protect the ball to enable his team to move up-field and attack. An all-rounder. One-two passes to create or score himself. Aerial power, strength, shooting, composure, passing.

The notes I have made are quite truncated but hopefully they are interesting and useful.

Regards,

C.

[Trila]

I would love to test the 4-2-3-1 as i have been having a hard-time with tactics.Especially lone striker formations.Thanks man.

[crouchaldinho]

I actually wonder if a more realistic 4-2-3-1 in the FM match engine would be to play in the midfield, like so:

		GK

DR	DC		DC	DL

	DM		DM

		MC

AMR				AML

		ST	

I find the AM doesn't tend to act very well, and that the MC, with high mentality, forward runs often and free role ticked, looks better in the match engine.

Any thoughts?

Regards,

C.

[crouchaldinho]

Picture of 4-2-3-1 from Lucchesi text book:

[flumen]

While I cannot say I have put as much thought into developing tactics as others have demonstrated in this thread I would like to add my own thoughts.

On FM2009 I have been using a 4-2-3-1 tactic since the beginning. My latest game (with Spurs) has gone through five seasons, with three league titles in a row, a champions league, a uefa cup and both domestic cups. I only include the details as it has all been based upon playing the same 4-2-3-1 tactic throughout, with very few changes.

I set the team to play through the wings and play a very short passing game, expanding only with the AMC/SC positions. All the forward five are encouraged to run with the ball and all the midfield are trained to look for through balls and get forward. In the beginning i used to try to give all the forward five a great deal of creativity but I have found it more successful to limit the creativity to the wingers and AMC. I do have all three playing in a free role and the SC is set at a slightly lower attacking mentaility than the three supporting. One of the midfield duo is set to defend/support (same setting as the full backs) and the other is encouraged to get forward. Essentially I found that having three players with a defensive mentality, followed by supporting roles for the full backs and then increased supporting roles (slightly more aggressive, or is that progressive) in the centre with the AMR/L/C all out attack has been productive. I do insist on a high defensive line and a lot of pressing. My reasoning has been in line with the dutch idea that when you have the ball you mut expand the space, but when you don't have the ball you must deny the opposition space. In the beginning, when I had CB with only a little pace, this proved an issue against teams with two pacey forwards, but with better players I do not get exposed very often.

What I like about this formation is that it is essentially attacking in spirit - it is not often the team don't score, and that because of the aggressive nature of the defense we are quite tight at the back. In all three league wins we had the greatest scoring record, although the defense was mostly placed in the top four but not the tightest. Goals are shared about - I really have not been able to get more than 20 goals a season out of the SC, but given the numbers scored from the flanks it has not been a problem.

There is no doubt that 4231 is just a subtle variation on 442, where wide players really are closer to inside forwards or the wingers of the old Ajax system. My ideal would be a 3412 formation but I cannot for the life of me get the defenders and wide players to play with the fluidity of movement and tactical awareness required. Until the ME gets wide players to move across into the backline when required it seems impossible.

[James8]

I actually wonder if a more realistic 4-2-3-1 in the FM match engine would be to play in the midfield, like so:

           GK

   DR    DC        DC    DL

       DM        DM

           MC

   AMR                AML

           ST    

I find the AM doesn't tend to act very well, and that the MC, with high mentality, forward runs often and free role ticked, looks better in the match engine.

Any thoughts?

Regards,

C.

Definitely agree with this! In the FM match engine the two DM positions provide better cover for the full backs too and the ST stays central which is better for aiming crosses to him without setting him as a TM which is my general preference