Player Interaction - The next step?

[Butters76]

I think this is one of the best threads I've seen on these forums in a long time..... And it's a brilliant idea Mike.

I don't agree with Butters, but I can see his point..... There are a couple of different ways at looking at a management game like this, one being to simply concentrate on the technical issues and I think that may be where that comment comes from.

We've had a very simplified level of personnel management and personality types for a long time now, and as the game gets more complex, IMHO this is becoming more important (and could potentially be a very rewarding area of the game if developed properly). An improvement in the personal interaction with the players could only help to increase the immersion factor.

But there is a limit, sure things like the press conferences give you a more immersive experience the first few times, after half a season most people are so sick of it they'd give their left arm to escape it. ( and the ass man mess it up 50% of the time if you are a lower league club, so you are force to do them all). At least we know the 2nd most possitive reply is always the "best choice".

I do agree player inteaction is good and the more the better. I just feel it has to wait for FM11, it has been upgraded the last 3 releases. TRaining has seen no love. We still have a totally unrealistic tactics design. I'm just saying first things first!

Just my 2 cents!

[Nomis07]

I do agree player inteaction is good and the more the better. I just feel it has to wait for FM11, it has been upgraded the last 3 releases. TRaining has seen no love. We still have a totally unrealistic tactics design. I'm just saying first things first!

Horses for courses though. I personally never touch training and have no interest in it at all, but I take part in all interaction and want as much added as possible

[KDR]

I guess we all know from RL playing/coaching experiences that it's the interaction with the boss that is often key. Someone ranting and raving over not sticking precisely to tactics at all times and making one mistake is quickly going to lose a player's respect. It has to be tempered with the ability to man-manage, and that is lacking in FM at the mo despite the Player Interaction model and improvements over the years.

Tbh, I doubt I would call someone in to say he was in great form. I'd probably choose to do that via the media. By the same token, a loss or prolonged run of bad form would be dealt with on a personal level, to see what the problem was, etc, and what might be done to remedy it.

Basically, anything that improves the ability to man-manage would be welcome, IMO, and player reactions would be more or less the same as currently: if he agrees, his PR would be that he is happy to have aired his views, that his manager understands, etc. If he disagrees or dislikes what was said, or sees the manager wanting a chat as an intrusion, it could make him unhappy or even request a transfer. It would bring the personality of the player into play, as atm I don't feel that it particularly matters that much, apart from when selecting a captain.

Additionally, you could have a 'floating' personality attribute/listing that changed according to how you dealt with players, i.e. strict disciplinarian (Capello), Driven (Ferguson), etc. and the interaction of these characters would affect players' reactions. For example, if you're strict, and you have a player who can't handle that (as was the rumour re: Capello and Michael Owen when at Real Madrid), it will lead to a player being unhappy as soon as you take a particular job. You can either resolve that, or move the player on asap - bearing in mind that a player who changes his view over time is likely then to be very loyal to the manager, and vice versa (i.e. Capello and Beckham).

[Up_The_Terriers]

Horses for courses though. I personally never touch training and have no interest in it at all, but I take part in all interaction and want as much added as possible

A good example of the very widely differing ways people enjoy playing FM. I sort of follow a route somewhere between the two in that I enjoy both sides of the game, and personally feel that both can be improved, and indeed both deserve equal attention.

Being an "annual" game though (as in it's a title that's eagerly awaited every year), SI are sort of hamstrung..... The game is getting more complicated, but the ammount of time they have to develop it remains the same..... And I think that the route they seem to be following is the right one given the circumstances they're working with (eg: 07 being an obvious extension of 05 and 06 which then provided the basis of 08, which was then expanded into what we have now in 09 etc.).

The downside though is that they have a very passionate fanbase (a given really with us all being football fans!) who want to see change happen quickly..... And this isn't possible without re-writing the game from the ground up every time.

That said (and obviously it's nothing more than my personal opinion), and going back to Mike's original suggestion, it would be good to see this type of expansion appear at some stage, as well as seeing improvements or enhancements in other areas of the game...... But we need to be patient. As it is I have no software development skills what-so-ever, and as such I'm happy to enjoy the game and trust that SI will continue to add something new every year (be it small things like tweaks to the player interaction, or big things like the 3D engine or whole new, redesigned game modules).

[Micado]

iirc in some previous version of FM you had the possibility to tell a player you would rest him for x weeks or so, not sure if it is in FM09 but such a feature would be nice to have (back) but in more personal form, not the same response for each player (eg. I restng you for 2 weeks.) but a response that could take into account the players injury status, personality, if he happy or not. EG. resting you until you have fully recovered, resting you because you have a lot of contract rumours going on and it hurts you current form.

[Butters76]

Horses for courses though. I personally never touch training and have no interest in it at all, but I take part in all interaction and want as much added as possible

For me it is the other way around. If I were to do all the player interactions I would do IRL I'd never get through a season. You have had an upgrade to your beloved areas the last 3 release. I have not.

[Mike7077]

iirc in some previous version of FM you had the possibility to tell a player you would rest him for x weeks or so, not sure if it is in FM09 but such a feature would be nice to have (back) but in more personal form, not the same response for each player (eg. I restng you for 2 weeks.) but a response that could take into account the players injury status, personality, if he happy or not. EG. resting you until you have fully recovered, resting you because you have a lot of contract rumours going on and it hurts you current form.

You still have this. But I think even this goes through the media, which is totally unnecessary. I could be wrong, though. It does happen!

[Butters76]

I haven't even touched player interactions in 09, but in 08 it did not go through the media. You could get a message in the inbox saying the player didn't feel he needed a rest, but respected your decision.

[Mike7077]

For me it is the other way around. If I were to do all the player interactions I would do IRL I'd never get through a season. You have had an upgrade to your beloved areas the last 3 release. I have not.

I think the point is that you would be able to interact as much or as little as you wanted. If you tried to interact on a daily basis with every squad member, it probably would take a while, but nobody would force you to do this. Plus, it's not like every member of your squad would be unhappy or out of form or in blistering form or whatever, so you wouldn't need to talk to every single one of them. In fact, you might not even want to talk to some of the ones who were unhappy or whatever. Just the ones you care about.

One thing's obvious. A great deal of thought and planning would be needed to get this right. It's still something I want to see, though. I haven't moved on that.

[Micado]

You still have this. But I think even this goes through the media, which is totally unnecessary. I could be wrong, though. It does happen!

Really :confused: , I assumed that it was the same response for each and every player, regardless if they are key players, youngsters, happy or injured.

[Mike7077]

I haven't even touched player interactions in 09, but in 08 it did not go through the media. You could get a message in the inbox saying the player didn't feel he needed a rest, but respected your decision.

Fair enough. Still, that is one tiny example of player interaction. It's also far away from being, in my opinion, the most important reason to talk to a player.

[Mike7077]

Really :confused: , I assumed that it was the same response for each and every player, regardless if they are key players, youngsters, happy or injured.

Don't worry. I think I was wrong.

[Micado]

Don't worry. I think I was wrong.

No problem nothing wrong with keeping a nice and friendly discussion going on.

[glamdring]

For me it is the other way around. If I were to do all the player interactions I would do IRL I'd never get through a season. You have had an upgrade to your beloved areas the last 3 release. I have not.

It's for us to make suggestions though and people at SI to decide on priorities, so like I said, discussions on your ideas how to improve training or whatever else should have their own thread and if it's good enough it'll get noticed.

Player interactions haven't been upgraded in the last few versions really. I don't have FM09 so I don't know what is new there, but press conferences don't count as player interaction. I've seen next to no meaningful changes in player interaction for many many versions.

[Up_The_Terriers]

Player interactions haven't been upgraded in the last few versions really. I don't have FM09 so I don't know what is new there, but press conferences don't count as player interaction. I've seen next to no meaningful changes in player interaction for many many versions.

The only real change in direct player interaction in 09 compared to 08 is the possibility to ask players to learn (or unlearn) preferred moves (eg: asking a striker to try and break the offside trap, go round the keeper etc or asking a midfielder/ defender to stay on his feet when tackling.... effectively to "unlearn" the attribute of diving into tackles)...... Sometimes the player wil agree (and then it automatically devotes a certain % of his training schedule to it), sometimes he'll turn around and say he can't see how it will help his game (or words to that effect) and the new training won't happen.

[glamdring]

The only real change in direct player interaction in 09 compared to 08 is the possibility to ask players to learn (or unlearn) preferred moves (eg: asking a striker to try and break the offside trap, go round the keeper etc or asking a midfielder/ defender to stay on his feet when tackling.... effectively to "unlearn" the attribute of diving into tackles)...... Sometimes the player wil agree (and then it automatically devotes a certain % of his training schedule to it), sometimes he'll turn around and say he can't see how it will help his game (or words to that effect) and the new training won't happen.

So basically that is more of a change to tactics than player interaction anyway!

[Butters76]

It's for us to make suggestions though and people at SI to decide on priorities, so like I said, discussions on your ideas how to improve training or whatever else should have their own thread and if it's good enough it'll get noticed.

Player interactions haven't been upgraded in the last few versions really. I don't have FM09 so I don't know what is new there, but press conferences don't count as player interaction. I've seen next to no meaningful changes in player interaction for many many versions.

Agreed, no more training or other talk in this thread from me.

Sorry about that. Just got alittle carried away since interactions have been upgraded for the last 3 releases while my beloved areas haven't seen any love at all from SI in the same 3 releases.

Appologies all around.

[Micado]

The only real change in direct player interaction in 09 compared to 08 is the possibility to ask players to learn (or unlearn) preferred moves (eg: asking a striker to try and break the offside trap, go round the keeper etc or asking a midfielder/ defender to stay on his feet when tackling.... effectively to "unlearn" the attribute of diving into tackles)...... Sometimes the player wil agree (and then it automatically devotes a certain % of his training schedule to it), sometimes he'll turn around and say he can't see how it will help his game (or words to that effect) and the new training won't happen.

Not really an improvement, but hey it is a start.

[Mike7077]

Agreed, no more training or other talk in this thread from me.

Sorry about that. Just got alittle carried away since interactions have been upgraded for the last 3 releases while my beloved areas haven't seen any love at all from SI in the same 3 releases.

Appologies all around.

I accept your apology.

However, I must say that I seem to be in disagreement with you again. The features you have brought up have seen far more improvements (or effort at improvement) than player interaction, which barely even exists.

[LOMAS1982]

Surley this happens in real life so this need to be in the game to make it more life like. Cant really beleive it aint in the game already when they trying to make it as accurate as possible, Great thread this Mike

[Daley]

The only real change in direct player interaction in 09 compared to 08 is the possibility to ask players to learn (or unlearn) preferred moves (eg: asking a striker to try and break the offside trap, go round the keeper etc or asking a midfielder/ defender to stay on his feet when tackling.... effectively to "unlearn" the attribute of diving into tackles)...... Sometimes the player wil agree (and then it automatically devotes a certain % of his training schedule to it), sometimes he'll turn around and say he can't see how it will help his game (or words to that effect) and the new training won't happen.

It may just be me but I actually see this as part of training along with the 'learn a new position' option rather than player interaction. I agree with Mike that player 'interaction' hasn't really improved for a couple of versions. The key word there being interaction which needs both parties to put answers/reactions to situations/comments on preferably more than one occasion to work properly.

[Butters76]

damn you I said no more from me, but you forced me to reply

Absolutely nothing have happend to the training. It is the same as it was in 08,07,06 . They have done one thing though, made player development alot better, but it has nothing to do with training setup.

And I got a tactical design "downgrade".

Anyway, nuff from me about this in this thread. Back to you, mike

[Mike7077]

damn you I said no more from me, but you forced me to reply

Absolutely nothing have happend to the training. It is the same as it was in 08,07,06 . They have done one thing though, made player development alot better, but it has nothing to do with training setup.

And I got a tactical design "downgrade".

Anyway, nuff from me about this in this thread. Back to you, mike

Yeah, I guess my response did kind of force you back in this direction. I take your point, though.

[Micado]

Well you mentiond in a couple of posts above that the interaction has been upgraded for the last 3 releases, I really can't think of any (yes, I have a short term memory).

I Also agree with Daley, the preferred moves is in fact a peice of the training routine

[Nick Habershon]

Interesting read. To give you the programming perspective, any form of communication between human manager and ai staff is rarely an easy implementation - essentially it's comprehension, calculation and response - and the trigger points, the when, where and how is the tricky part. That isn't your problem though and it's good not to allow it to affect your initial thinking or imagination which I think has come across in this thread.

For me, the main problem with player interaction in the game as it stands is the way it is presented and also when to use it/accessibility. I think if we get that right, it will go a long way to improving the module as a whole. The amount of media in the game consistently increases with every version and we are always maxed out on our translation limits and time-scales. To the user though, this isn't always apparent. People mentioned not being able to talk to players about form but the fact is you can (via the interaction - it's just that it isn't easy or obvious enough currently). The distinction also needs to be made clearer between what is a private chat between manager and player and what is a public outburst to the media. Interaction needs to be private. Be assured this is an area we need and intend to address.

Press conferences is a new module and had been requested by a lot of fans for years. We decided to introduce it this version as a sound and expandable basis for developing the 'public' aspect of communicating in Football Manager. Think of interaction as the private sphere and press conference as the public going forward. We only had around fifty 'media questions' in previous versions of the game. With the press conference module now have more like five hundred and yet it still isn't enough for the human user. As so often happens, the limits of a computer's scope for question and response are reached long before a human being's. This will improve but as such a text-intensive module it will take time.

Please keep hitting us with ideas and suggestions though - between all of us we read most things even if we don't always get a chance to reply. As widely noted, it's ultimately your feedback and criticism that helps make the game what it is.

[Mike7077]

The thing that really stimulated my thinking was that things happen in the game that make me really want to be able to communicate with a player. A few people have given examples that show the game tickles the sides of the issue. But we are still pretty much powerless to communicate with our players. The areas of most concern to me personally are player happiness, transfer rumours and form.

[Up_The_Terriers]

I Also agree with Daley, the preferred moves is in fact a peice of the training routine

Personally I see it as part of both.

Yes it does directly effect an individual's training routine..... but at the same time it is interaction since you can approach the player directly about it and it isn't guaranteed that he will accept your suggestion (which hints at his response is governed both by his personality and his general level of respect for your ability and knowledge as his manager).

On the subject of interaction I see it as a good start...... But more complexity is needed (being able to discuss a player's performance levels as per Mike's ideas, or something like being able to sit a player down and discuss his training routine with him if he's unhappy with the workload or tell him how you see his future at the club.... So influencing things such as his response should another club be interested in him or you reject a transfer offer for him etc.)

From a training point of view it's potentially a good start in being able to create individual schedules for players without needing to manually set up a seperate routine for each and every circumstance.

[glamdring]

My problem with the existing ability to comment on a player's form is that it can be a bit of a prod in the dark. I can't remember where I got this interpretation from ( maybe I just made it up! ), but I always tend to regard a comment on a player's form to cover his last 5 appearances and the player's reaction to my comment often seems to be at odds with what I see from his form...that is fair enough in a sense though - some players may believe that 6's with the odd 7 is acceptable form.

Sometimes I would like to just focus on a player's last appearance or last couple. I know I can warn him for poor performance, but that is a bit over the top in many cases, I'd rather just have a quiet word about it.

I think my main problem there though is that there aren't enough ways to interact to try to improve a player's morale if he has Very Poor morale so I look at praise/criticise recent form just because it is one of the only ways I can give the player's morale a prod at all. Often I have no wish to actually comment on his form, I just do it in the hope I can get the morale boost that probably ought to come via some other source really.

Definitely though a clear distinction between something that is said to a journalist and something that is said to the player alone in my office is a very good start.

[Daley]

Personally I see it as part of both.

Yes it does directly effect an individual's training routine..... but at the same time it is interaction since you can approach the player directly about it and it isn't guaranteed that he will accept your suggestion (which hints at his response is governed both by his personality and his general level of respect for your ability and knowledge as his manager).

On the subject of interaction I see it as a good start...... But more complexity is needed (being able to discuss a player's performance levels as per Mike's ideas, or something like being able to sit a player down and discuss his training routine with him if he's unhappy with the workload or tell him how you see his future at the club.... So influencing things such as his response should another club be interested in him or you reject a transfer offer for him etc.)

From a training point of view it's potentially a good start in being able to create individual schedules for players without needing to manually set up a seperate routine for each and every circumstance.

But the reason that I see it as training rather than actual interaction is that its a one comment & one reply scenario which does absolutely nothing to strengthen/harm the relationship that you have with the player on either side (ie: from wot he thinks of you or you think of him!) Actual interaction should not only address current emotions/situations etc but also develope the relationship between both player & manager.

[Butters76]

The way I have understood it, you don't train the player to chip the keeper, it will not make him any better at it.

I don't think the player will get any better at chipping the ball over the keeper, you just ask him to try it more often in games and it's supposed to be up to you to train him for it in training. SO I see it as an interaction.

[Daley]

The way I have understood it, you don't train the player to chip the keeper, it will not make him any better at it.

I don't think the player will get any better at chipping the ball over the keeper, you just ask him to try it more often in games and it's supposed to be up to you to train him for it in training. SO I see it as an interaction.

Ok, I don't want to take this off topic as I know we are all enjoying this thread. However I understand your point but the bottom line is that you 'ask' a player to learn 'xyz' he says yes or no end of. It has no bearing on your relationship what-so-ever and so in my opinion is not interaction.

[Butters76]

No, you ask him to try it more, not learn it. (according to how it's presented anyway)

[Daley]

Yeah I get that, but the key to what I percieve to be interaction is that it provokes a reaction good/bad/in-different between the relationship between the two parties. I understand your point that your only asking a player to try it more but if you ask a player 'to stay on your feet when tackling' surely you are trying to influence the way he plays the game and therefore its training.

[Micado]

The way I have understood it, you don't train the player to chip the keeper, it will not make him any better at it.

I don't think the player will get any better at chipping the ball over the keeper, you just ask him to try it more often in games and it's supposed to be up to you to train him for it in training. SO I see it as an interaction.

Well basically, if I would ask a player do try a certain thing I think he can benefit from it, and thus would make him better (I do this as a amateur basketball coach as well, telling player to try this or that which would benefit him).

Ok, I don't want to take this off topic as I know we are all enjoying this thread. However I understand your point but the bottom line is that you 'ask' a player to learn 'xyz' he says yes or no end of. It has no bearing on your relationship what-so-ever and so in my opinion is not interaction.

Yes you are right, it is just a one time interaction.

Q:can you ....

A: No, don't see....

End of interaction.

This affects the players morale/happiness etc not at all. Which, at least is my hope, should be the goal of this, to "really" talk to the players so you can get them happy, annoy them, explain why he was subbed etc.

[Butters76]

Yeah I get that, but the key to what I percieve to be interaction is that it provokes a reaction good/bad/in-different between the relationship between the two parties. I understand your point that your only asking a player to try it more but if you ask a player 'to stay on your feet when tackling' surely you are trying to influence the way he plays the game and therefore its training.

Yeah, well I told Adebayor to stop running into offside position so often and he got annoyed sayng he did not see how that would improve his game.

Bet Wenger feels like I did at that point every week

I don't see it as training unless it can make him better at it from your action.

[Daley]

Yeah, well I told Adebayor to stop running into offside position so often and he got annoyed sayng he did not see how that would improve his game.

Bet Wenger feels like I did at that point every week

I don't see it as training unless it makes him better at it from your action.

Ok , then when he got annoyed did he then have you as a person he dislikes? Did he request a transfer? Did he become unhappy?

[Butters76]

NO, but If I kept nagging him, he probably would have. I just left it at that.

If Wenger takes Adebayor to the side once asking him to watch the offside trap, do you think he would be unhappy with Wenger then? But If Wenger kept nagging him weekin and weekout about it it wouldn't take too long for him to get unhappy with Wenger!

[Daley]

ok we'll have to agree to dis-agree as this is getting no-where and it's in danger of spoiling the thread.

[Butters76]

OK, I just want one thing clear. Do you really expect him to hate me for telling him once to watch the offsidetrap? And even request a transfer over it?

If so we disagree as much as humanly possible!

[glamdring]

Telling a player to unlearn something is player interaction, but it is player interaction on a miniscule level and which you would only ever use if you want the player to unlearn that move (a tactical decision). End of story!

[chopper99]

Due to stupid work I've only just managed to find the time to read this thread properly.

Great ideas and something I've been thinking about myself for a while. Personally I think player interaction is the one area of the game that is crying out for improvement. The media interaction has started to improve with the press conferences, but individual player interaction has not really moved forward for a while now.

You should basically be able to talk one-on-one with a player about a lot of things, from contract renewals (although agents should be involved here as well), transfer speculation, player unhappiness etc, etc. At the moment it is really only done through the media for the most part and this is not reflective of what a real life manager will do.

Of course it needs to be done well, so that a players personality has an impact on how he reacts to these talks. But if done well it would be an excellent addition to the game.

[Mike7077]

Due to stupid work I've only just managed to find the time to read this thread properly.

I can relate to that. I often miss out on contributing properly to threads that require a bit of thought and proper responses because I can't give those things while at work. I want to give a full response to what Nick from SI said (which, by the way, was a really good post), but I just can't because I'm at work.

[Artman]

Fully agree - more interaction with players is what I want most

[Nomis07]

Due to stupid work I've only just managed to find the time to read this thread properly.

I should be saying that and I really am quite busy, but right now people in work are annoying me so much that i'm happy to keep them waiting for the required work and get on with the forums. Hopefully it will annoy them a lot, but I doubt it because they are idiots.

[Micado]

Hopefully it will annoy them a lot, but I doubt it because they are idiots.

Are you working for the same company as I am

But yes, I made the mistake in the beginning of this thread as well, not really concentrated to read the actual posts and missed some info.

[chopper99]

I should be saying that and I really am quite busy, but right now people in work are annoying me so much that i'm happy to keep them waiting for the required work and get on with the forums. Hopefully it will annoy them a lot, but I doubt it because they are idiots.

My entire place of work is annoying me at the moment, mainly because I've taken on the work of two or three people and the only thanks or reward I've had so far is the threat of redundancy after christmas

There's no such thing as moral in this office any more.

[Nomis07]

I'm really sorry to go off topic Mike, but i'm in the same boat Chopper. I'm covering three jobs for no more pay, loads more stress and no thanks. My wife and I are actually so fed up with work that we plan on being "sick" next week and leave the cretins to try and pick up the pieces.

[grep]

Back to topic I would like to have not only the opportunity to release sweet words or little complains.

I would like to be able to gift money to players or banning them from the squad for several months without being paid as well if they commit something really bad like not scoring as I order them

[glamdring]

I'm doing the work of one person in an office with good morale

I have no wish to have the capability to bribe my players to play well though, nor to break loads of rules by stopping their pay for unlawful amounts of time!

[chopper99]

I'm doing the work of one person in an office with good morale

Git

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