It's your tactics!

[ahmufcwafc]

Wat does Assman mean?

Assistant manager.

[Suggar-Daddy-George]

Thanks a lot man

[Chochip]

Wow.. bigguyinthesky is definitely not someone to have an intelligent discussion with.

[bigguyinthesky]

Bigguyinthesky

You are still missing my point after all these posts. Yes I would like to win just like everyone BUT that is not where my frustration is coming from. If not winning was my frustration I could just quietly downloaded someone else's tactic that would score lots of goals.

I really wouldn't mind losing as long as I know exactly what I am telling my players. Because that means I can fix things with full intention and not just randomly/experimentally.

Yes my instructions might contradict each other, but that is my point. They could be contradicting themselves when I never intended them to.

No I do not just want an easy winning tactic, how many times do I have to say this? :confused:

so what you moaning about then its quite simple your no good at tactics and you want an easy ride and you come on here moaning that you cant do the tactics and what do you want to gain from this post do you want si to give you the undeafeatable tactic its about hard work if you aint got the time for trial and error go pick up a copy of fifa

[Smellfire]

The problem is the sliders don't work with every player depending on his stats.

For instance I have midfielders who are told to take long shots but stand on edge of area dithering who to pass it to, or players not to take long shots who have some every match.

Full backs told not to make forward runs yet seeing them past the half way line all the time and no they dont have ppms for forward runs etc.

Goalkeepers that keep punting the ball up field when all sliders are low and asked to call defenders. Amount of goals i have conceeded when opposition middlefielders win ball from goal kick etc, pass it to a forward who slots it home.

Lots of instances of various players in various positions like this, just a couple of examples.

Personally I think the mental stats have been given to much weight in the match engine which makes players either brilliant or totally stupid, and makes working out a tactic for your group of players, especially in lower leagues a royal pain in the arse.

[sebzilla]

I must just be super lucky, I threw together some haphazard attempt at a tactic without reading any gigantic forum posts, tweaked it a little bit after a few games, and am winning all sorts of shiny trophies. The tactic is basically similar to one I used last year, but even then I didn't put in any great effort to build it. Players in position, few barrows/farrows, stick the default positional instructions in, twiddle the team instructions to play a quick, short passing attacking game and go for it.

Really i don't know what all the fuss is about.

[bigguyinthesky]

What an utter troll

Give up now tbh because you're making yourself look rather sad.

troll lol im just giving my opinion if you dont like it thats your problem not mine you guys just want a game where you win everything and thats the bottom line if you aint winning then your moaning about it get a grip

[Chochip]

Don't get me wrong. With my tactic that I'm using atm I can easily win a double or even a treble with a good team. But unlike most people I have a particular style of play that I want to see from my players. And that's where my problem is.

[Smellfire]

so what you moaning about then its quite simple your no good at tactics and you want an easy ride and you come on here moaning that you cant do the tactics and what do you want to gain from this post do you want si to give you the undeafeatable tactic its about hard work if you aint got the time for trial and error go pick up a copy of fifa

Your really constructive.

Try reading his post carefully, then make a decent reply. I could say things about your terrible grammar and stuff like go back to school moron, but I better not, you probably wouldn't understand unless I drew pictures.

[Wakers]

troll lol im just giving my opinion if you dont like it thats your problem not mine you guys just want a game where you win everything and thats the bottom line if you aint winning then your moaning about it get a grip

You completely can't read can you?

How many times do we need to state that we don't want a game where winning everything is easy?

I had a saved game where I'd gotten Blyth into the football league in 2 seasons, but the game is very, very annoying, and most of it down to the bugs present and the way that the sliders do not do what they should!

Now please, stop insulting people and grow up.

[Suggar-Daddy-George]

Can we please not argue. Lets just lay down the fact that Bigguyinthesky is a key stage 1 reader and get on with the topic. I like Short attacking football wat bout you guys?

[bigguyinthesky]

Don't get me wrong. With my tactic that I'm using atm I can easily win a double or even a treble with a good team. But unlike most people I have a particular style of play that I want to see from my players. And that's where my problem is.

but there is a limit to what to expect from your team its impossible to set it up to exactly what you want the kind of detail that would take just isn't realistic so they give you sliders to best achieve what your looking for and at the moment thats the best option. you cant talk to your players in the game and tell them what you want its just a game after all

[kopitelewis]

i love this game and how you have to change the tactics each game. adds a lot of realism to it.

[bigguyinthesky]

You completely can't read can you?

How many times do we need to state that we don't want a game where winning everything is easy?

I had a saved game where I'd gotten Blyth into the football league in 2 seasons, but the game is very, very annoying, and most of it down to the bugs present and the way that the sliders do not do what they should!

Now please, stop insulting people and grow up.

haven't once insulted you in anyway if you recall it was you that called me a troll so lets get the facts straight before we post

[Suggar-Daddy-George]

Lets not argue Ladies

[bigguyinthesky]

Lets not argue Ladies

its not arguing its debate and it healthy to debate, opinions are just that your own if you disagree then by all means say so but calling people trolls just because they don't hold your opinion is out of order

[Wakers]

haven't once insulted you in anyway if you recall it was you that called me a troll so lets get the facts straight before we post

Because calling people rubbish at tactics when you don't have a clue what you're talking about isn't insulting in any way is it?

Also, try adding some sort of punctuation to your posts for the love of god. It's like trying to listen to Lee Evans.

Ffs i called you a troll because you were ignoring the content of people's posts and insulting them.

Which is, you know, called trolling.

[ron.e]

That's exactly the way i feel chochip -I just hope that si one day will actually take note of this and do something about it. I don't mind that i lose. It's all a part of the game. But what i don't really understand is, how do i use the sliders to not lose so often and even when i am winning to know why i'm winning and how i've found the winning formula. If that makes sense.

[Chochip]

You will be called a troll or whatever other harsh words if you completely ignore the points made by other people and assume they are all lying and actually talking about exactly what you think they are.

[Tal_Hides]

My take on it is that the tactical options simply aren't intuitive enough. I watch a lot of football, and I have an idea about the sort of system I want to play in a given match from that, but when it comes to translating it into an FM09 tactic it either simply takes far too long to make what I would consider to be minor changes to the way you operate, or the tactical instructions you need to change to make your team play in such a way aren't as obvious as they should be.

When I change the tactic I use, I usually have a plan in mind for the game ahead, when that plan doesn't work and we lose I'm fine with it, because I got it wrong. Where it becomes a problem, is when you think you've set up a tactic to work in a certain way, and realise your players are doing exactly the opposite. This isn't because they're idiots, or because the match engine is flawed, or because you got your tactics wrong, it's because you didn't interpret the way in which a given slider or tick box affects your team correctly. These options simply aren't intuitive enough, many people have assumptions about what an instruction will do, based on its description, but this is often totally innaccurate and leads to flawed tactics. I'd have absolutely no problem tweaking my tactics every match if I knew exactly what change I was making for that game, but unless I have the ability to tell my players exactly what they're doing in simple terms, I find it pointless, beacause I know that when I try to translate my ideas into FM tactical terminology and options, I'm likely to translate it incorrectly and we're going to ditch a good tactic, for an incredibly bad one that isn't even doing what I intended it to do.

So when people say "it's your tactics" they're probably right, but that doesn't actually mean it's your fault, because you're probably trying to do something that makes sense in real footballing terms, but doesn't translate very well into the match engine via the vague instructions.

[bigguyinthesky]

You will be called a troll or whatever other harsh words if you completely ignore the points made by other people and assume they are all lying and actually talking about exactly what you think they are.

i accept your points and if you scroll back up have said its a good idea to what you have suggested but the depth that this version now offers is a good thing because its now a challenge and not a walk in the park

[Chochip]

I think I could talk to my lemon tree in my backyard and get it to understand what I'm taking about faster than you.

[Wakers]

i accept your points and if you scroll back up have said its a good idea to what you have suggested but the depth that this version now offers is a good thing because its now a challenge and not a walk in the park

Right..and everyone else's posts that you didn't read before spouting rubbish? Want to apologise?

[bigguyinthesky]

I think I could talk to my lemon tree in my backyard and get it to understand what I'm taking about faster than you.

thats your opinion and your allowed to have it like i am allowed to have mine

[Suggar-Daddy-George]

lol Ignore him he is probably a wum pretending to not understand

[Tal_Hides]

i accept your points and if you scroll back up have said its a good idea to what you have suggested but the depth that this version now offers is a good thing because its now a challenge and not a walk in the park

Yes it's a challenge, and making the game challenging is a good thing. The problem is I don't think the challenge is in the right area. It doesn't seem to be as much about knowing what system to play, which players to pick for what game and so on, as much as it's about understanding the match engine and how the tactical instructions relate to it. I want to be challenged to make the correct footballing decisions, not in my understanding and interpretation of the match engine.

[thebigman1985]

imo there should be some kind of option for tactical detail or whatever, the game its self is fairly simple untill your tactics are suddenly figured out

[bigguyinthesky]

Right..and everyone else's posts that you didn't read before spouting rubbish? Want to apologise?

i read all the posts and i have my own opinion and wont be told what to think i find the tactics fine you don't and thats your opinion and your entitled to it

[Suggar-Daddy-George]

WUM, WUM, WUM (Guess dont get anoyed ) A blind man could read better. READ FGS

[Wakers]

i read all the posts and i have my own opinion and wont be told what to think i find the tactics fine you don't and thats your opinion and your entitled to it

Why on earth didn't you just say that in the first place ffs!

[ashp]

Could someone give us some examples here of a style of play they are trying to get, and what they have done with the sliders and what they actually got? I think a good example of how it's hard to transfer 'what I want' into 'what I got' would help the discussion.

(For the record I think the system has way too much information and I should really be able to set tactics by 'section', so I can go into a defense section and say 'try to keep the line, stay back and hoof the ball clear' or into the midfield and say 'try and get it wide, whip it up fast and cross in from x'.)

[Wakers]

Could someone give us some examples here of a style of play they are trying to get, and what they have done with the sliders and what they actually got? I think a good example of how it's hard to transfer 'what I want' into 'what I got' would help the discussion.

(For the record I think the system has way too much information and I should really be able to set tactics by 'section', so I can go into a defense section and say 'try to keep the line, stay back and hoof the ball clear' or into the midfield and say 'try and get it wide, whip it up fast and cross in from x'.)

One good example is getting the team to attack with width but to defend as a narrow unit. Try sorting that out with the current system and you'll achieve either one or the other but not both.

[ashp]

Ah, got you. I must admit it would be nicer if they'd just let you set a 'meta' tactic, and assign individual tactics to different situations. So you create a baseline tactic, then tweak it for 'attacking', 'defending', 'come back', 'controlling play', 'timewasting', and then the players would automatically move between them as required. You could easily use the mental attributes to determine how well the player adapts if the tactics are fairly different, and how smart individual players are at knowing when it's time to change tactic.

[bigguyinthesky]

One good example is getting the team to attack with width but to defend as a narrow unit. Try sorting that out with the current system and you'll achieve either one or the other but not both.

but thats a contradiction if you lose the ball while attacking because your players will be out of position when they've got to defend they will be wide and that will allow the counter attack thats what happens irl if your attacking with width and lose the ball then your open to the narrow counter attack and no im not trolling just saying you would be open down the middle if you lost the ball while attacking

[Chochip]

I've been trying to get my wingers to cut into the box from the wide position most of the time with the ball instead of dribbling down the pitch. Trust me I've tried all the possible ways to achieve this. Not possible imo. Even though they are positioned in their opposite foot and have high dribbling (eg messi) they will only cut into the box about 10% of the time. Most of the time they will dribble down the line and get confused over what to do from there.

Also my MCs/AMs stand too statically and don't move around to free themselves from the other team's tight marking. This then means the defenders will either pass back to the keeper because they see no options or kick it really long. Tried forward runs, CF, mentality changes but they just stand still until they get the ball. When they do get the ball they're immediately stolen of it because they just don't seem to know how to keep the ball. And these guys have decent strength too.

These are just couple of things I can remember right now.

[Wakers]

but thats a contradiction if you lose the ball while attacking because your players will be out of position when they've got to defend they will be wide and that will allow the counter attack thats what happens irl if your attacking with width and lose the ball then your open to the narrow counter attack and no im not trolling just saying you would be open down the middle if you lost the ball while attacking

Plenty of teams do this to good effect in real life - Man U, Aston Villa are two such examples. Liverpool are the most extreme example - although sometimes they don't attack with width.

Its a common tactic to be honest.

[bigguyinthesky]

I've been trying to get my wingers to cut into the box from the wide position most of the time with the ball instead of dribbling down the pitch. Trust me I've tried all the possible ways to achieve this. Not possible imo. Even though they are positioned in their opposite foot and have high dribbling (eg messi) they will only cut into the box about 10% of the time. Most of the time they will dribble down the line and get confused over what to do from there.

Also my MCs/AMs stand too statically and don't move around to free themselves from the other team's tight marking. This then means the defenders will either pass back to the keeper because they see no options or kick it really long. Tried forward runs, CF, mentality changes but they just stand still until they get the ball. When they do get the ball they're immediately stolen of it because they just don't seem to know how to keep the ball. And these guys have decent strength too.

These are just couple of things I can remember right now.

i see this also mind you i am Luton not Barcelona but i put that down to the match engine not being that great not the tactics. i always see things as if they score a forty yard screamer i just see it as they were meant to score at that point in the game and not how they score if that makes sense, same with injuries if they are out for a month with a wrist injury it just means they were meant to get injured it doesn't matter what the injury is but thats just me

[Les Girondins]

A lot of essential stuff is broken: closing down, goalkeeper distribution, tight marking, ai decision making, physical stats in matches vs actual stats on profile etc etc etc.

Its a mess and hopefully will be much improved with next patch.

[Schotsmannetje]

I completely disagree about the tactics being too complicated. I am successful with only 2 different presets of tactics and I never tweak anything. I only tweak the opposition instructions.

However, I do agree that the tactics system is not good, but there have been already loads of threads on the tactics system.

And the general consensus seems to be: The sliders have to go.

[bigguyinthesky]

A lot of essential stuff is broken: closing down, goalkeeper distribution, tight marking, ai decision making, physical stats in matches vs actual stats on profile etc etc etc.

Its a mess and hopefully will be much improved with next patch.

but is that the match engine or tactics i think its the match engine because i have seen some weird stuff like players standing two foot from the ball but not moving towards it and the opposition being ten foot away but getting to the ball first

[Les Girondins]

I completely disagree about the tactics being too complicated. I am successful with only 2 different presets of tactics and I never tweak anything. I only tweak the opposition instructions.

However, I do agree that the tactics system is not good, but there have been already loads of threads on the tactics system.

And the general consensus seems to be: The sliders have to go.

What do you propose as an alternative? Not being fecitious, just curious.

[Chochip]

But I can understand that while I think the current system is a mess to deal with, we can't exactly recommend a better system. Well I can't atm anyway. Just hoping for those creative minds to come up with something beautiful.

[jim stjfc]

it is possible that your team is trying to play the way your telling them, the opponents tactics might just be stopping your team playing the way you want them to

[Bongo-Bongo]

And the general consensus seems to be: The sliders have to go.

In principal, I think the sliders are fine. The problem is that it can often be hard to tell exactly what some are doing, especially for less experienced/new users. As I mentioned earlier, a graphical representation on the tactics screen would largely beneficial, and a much improved explanation in the manual would too.

The only slider I'd think about changing is Creative Freedom, taking it from 20 notches to 5, those being very little, little, normal, high and very high.

[Suggar-Daddy-George]

You are trolling and dont deserve to stay in a nice place like SI, SHAME ON YOU!

[Schotsmannetje]

What do you propose as an alternative? Not being fecitious, just curious.

Yeah I've been thinking about that A LOT. I don't have so much against the sliders themselves, but I just think they have too many values. 5 different values of mentality e.g. should be enough.

- everybody behind the ball

- defensive

- balanced

- offensive

- everyone forward

I must admit, and people can call me stupid and probably will because FIFA isn't popular in these forums but I don't care, that I'm very impressed with the new way you can set up your team instructions in FIFA09. I think it's a perfect combination between not too much detail, but still being able to adjust your style of play in such a way that you can really create your own style and adjust your style of play to the qualities/characteristics of your team.

[Les Girondins]

In principal, I think the sliders are fine. The problem is that it can often be hard to tell exactly what some are doing, especially for less experienced/new users. As I mentioned earlier, a graphical representation on the tactics screen would largely beneficial, and a much improved explanation in the manual would too.

The only slider I'd think about changing is Creative Freedom, taking it from 20 notches to 5, those being very little, little, normal, high and very high.

It would help a lot if we could conceptualise our strategies in numerical form and actually type in numbers instead of sliders (with sliders being a ui option). Why do I advocate that? Because 99% of us already conceptualise player attributes in numerical format and it would be easier to approach the tactics in the same veign rather than disguising it in sliders. Heck even if the sliders had the corresponding values on them, it would bve a tremendous aid.

[Suggar-Daddy-George]

I think if Fifa and PES tactics were as complicated as FM's i wud be happy cos then we can adjust them 2 perfection

[ChipK]

My take on it is that the tactical options simply aren't intuitive enough. I watch a lot of football, and I have an idea about the sort of system I want to play in a given match from that, but when it comes to translating it into an FM09 tactic it either simply takes far too long to make what I would consider to be minor changes to the way you operate, or the tactical instructions you need to change to make your team play in such a way aren't as obvious as they should be.

When I change the tactic I use, I usually have a plan in mind for the game ahead, when that plan doesn't work and we lose I'm fine with it, because I got it wrong. Where it becomes a problem, is when you think you've set up a tactic to work in a certain way, and realise your players are doing exactly the opposite. This isn't because they're idiots, or because the match engine is flawed, or because you got your tactics wrong, it's because you didn't interpret the way in which a given slider or tick box affects your team correctly. These options simply aren't intuitive enough, many people have assumptions about what an instruction will do, based on its description, but this is often totally innaccurate and leads to flawed tactics. I'd have absolutely no problem tweaking my tactics every match if I knew exactly what change I was making for that game, but unless I have the ability to tell my players exactly what they're doing in simple terms, I find it pointless, beacause I know that when I try to translate my ideas into FM tactical terminology and options, I'm likely to translate it incorrectly and we're going to ditch a good tactic, for an incredibly bad one that isn't even doing what I intended it to do.

So when people say "it's your tactics" they're probably right, but that doesn't actually mean it's your fault, because you're probably trying to do something that makes sense in real footballing terms, but doesn't translate very well into the match engine via the vague instructions.

Good post! This is what I was trying to say, but you said it better

[bigguyinthesky]

It would help a lot if we could conceptualise our strategies in numerical form and actually type in numbers instead of sliders (with sliders being a ui option). Why do I advocate that? Because 99% of us already conceptualise player attributes in numerical format and it would be easier to approach the tactics in the same veign rather than disguising it in sliders. Heck even if the sliders had the corresponding values on them, it would bve a tremendous aid.

i think also having the players positions change as you set the instructions would help like if you set sit deep you could see where they would go as you set up your instructions