Why bother with tactical analysis?

[DavidWaters]

Just set these

counter-press

higher defensive line

high press 

press much more often

step up more.

 

and by magic you start playing better/winning more games, even if you don't have the players needed to play a specific gegenpress style.

 

easy, game is broken, has been for years, just go watch all the FM youtubers/tactics in the tactics forum, It's all high press.

say im wrong if you want, but you won't get the game fixed believing otherwise.

[herne79]

1 hour ago, DavidWaters said:

easy

You’re not wrong, and that word is the key here - what you describe is the easy way of doing things.

Not everyone wants to play that way however.  It’s still (and always has been) perfectly possible to be every bit as successful using different styles of play.  It’s just harder to do, which is why a lot of these YouTubers you mention don’t do it.

So it’s not really about the game being broken or not.  If you want every play style to be just as “easy” to set up and win stuff then the game will get pretty boring very quickly.  That’s not to say there is no room for improvement - there absolutely is - but just consider the satisfaction you might get if you are just as successful using a different play style to your favoured one ,

[DavidWaters]

29 minutes ago, herne79 said:

You’re not wrong, and that word is the key here - what you describe is the easy way of doing things.

Not everyone wants to play that way however.  It’s still (and always has been) perfectly possible to be every bit as successful using different styles of play.  It’s just harder to do, which is why a lot of these YouTubers you mention don’t do it.

So it’s not really about the game being broken or not.  If you want every play style to be just as “easy” to set up and win stuff then the game will get pretty boring very quickly.  That’s not to say there is no room for improvement - there absolutely is - but just consider the satisfaction you might get if you are just as successful using a different play style to your favoured one ,

I don't use gegenpress, I refuse to use it, I just want the game to be the best version of itself it can be.

 

To be successful with a gegenpress you should have to have specific players with specific attributes to be successful with it, and probably a very large squad for rotation, but that isn't the case.

[herne79]

8 minutes ago, DavidWaters said:

To be successful with a gegenpress you should have to have specific players with specific attributes to be successful with it, and probably a very large squad for rotation, but that isn't the case.

100% agree with this.  Being able to play gegenpress with a bottom 4 club or even a non-league club shouldn't really be possible.  SI like to use the term "realism" and that's not realistic imo.

However, there is a flip side to consider - a fair proportion of the user base just want to play, have fun and win stuff.  Nothing wrong with that at all and good luck to them.  So lots of people have neither the time nor the inclination to use anything other than "easy mode" (for want of a better phrase), so would it really be fair to deny them this by nerfing gegenpress?  What about buffing other play styles instead?  If other play styles get buffed, where does that leave the rest of us who want more of a challenge?  There's a balancing act here and I don't envy SI that particular tightrope they have to negotiate.

[bosque]

I like this discussion and understand the "dangers" of nerfing gegenpress. Especially because the common of people don't have a big understanding of tactics and just want to have fun.

[phnompenhandy]

3 minutes ago, bosque said:

I like this discussion and understand the "dangers" of nerfing gegenpress. Especially because the common of people don't have a big understanding of tactics and just want to have fun.

FM has always been a game you can play 1000 different ways. But for commercial reasons, the default methods has to be "easy". It's up to us who prefer a more 'realistic' or harder experience to set our own limitation. In this case it means choosing not to use tactical options that you feel are unrealistic for the players you control. You can take it further and not bring in players you consider too good for your club.

[Mike J]

I'd argue it's also fairly realistic. Many (but not all) of the best teams play a high-pressing, high-line tactic that looks to win the ball back high up the pitch. Many also play out of defence rather than going more direct. The tactic works IRL, and not just for elite teams. In FM, I've found it works about as well as it seems to IRL. It's certainly an effective way of playing, but can also be exploited by competent opposition.

[Samuel77]

I remember PES. You could choose to have fast players and go straight at them, or you could choose to take players you liked and try to play a style of football you liked.

[ceefax the cat]

I simply refuse to counterpress, spend all my time trying to play negative-but-effective football, and have a great time at it. Who cares what everyone else does

[Strikerir1]

I really feel your frustation, specially because i play online, as for me games are more fun when playing with friends and because everyone is competitive they will use meta tactics exactly like the one you described , but im a big fan of a more pragmatic negative style and i try to do it and it results in 0 trophies and getting slapped up by my friends by 4+ goals and feels horrible when i recruited smartly to suit my football, instead of just buying meta wonderkids and gengenpress but unfortunatly thats exactly how to win. Other thing that bothers me is yes you hipotectically you can win with every type/style of tactic but some people dont have that much time and effort to try and make a non meta tactic work. I really just want to pick up the game make a balanced tactic with few instructions that really suit my players and not worry about it, but for that it needs to be high press high tempo, otherwise ill have to do way to much to make it work, it can take hours of absolute frustration and bad result until getting something that wins 50% of the time and loses 100% against any good meta tactic.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Strikerir1

[Chiravilla]

Yes, maybe gegen is broken and it's probably the easiest way to succeed but... it's still a game and everyone can play in their own way. It depends on your expectations for the game. 

Let's start with the fact that players who don't work aroud the football in real life can win the champions league in three seasons with a club started in the Championship. Is this real? No.

Personally, I lose motivation when I win repeatedly and the results are unreal. That's why I love counterattack styles in FM I prefer to lose/draw a few matches in a row and then win in the way I want to play with boys who suit to my tactics (E.g I love "basque style": brave and hardworking players who sacrifice for the team and build the team around them).

However, losing can be frustrating and the computer games should rather allow you to relax. You can feel the same satisfaction by winning every match and signing best wonderkids from downloaded shortlists OR by making some small tactical tweaks, look for the right players for your style and make the game as difficult as possible.

If you're playing a single career, play by your own rules. What will give you more satisfaction?

Cheers mate!

[Strikerir1]

1 minuto atrás, Chiravilla disse:

 

If you're playing a single career, play by your own rules. What will give you more satisfaction?

Cheers mate!

Yeah but what if i prefer to play online? and then what if i dont have so much time to dedicate to really tweak and deep dive into the tactics? I hate playing with downloaded tactics because i get a feel of not being me the manager and yes i win but at what cost? im starting to hate teams that gengenpress in real life as well coming from a LFC fan. But everytime someone has this frustrations people just say" oh thats because you dont understand the game and dont know how things work" ive asked multiple times for help , ive read books in football tactics , ive read alot of threads how to make good tactics and it just feels like it never works and its super frustrating.

[bosque]

2 hours ago, Strikerir1 said:

Yeah but what if i prefer to play online? and then what if i dont have so much time to dedicate to really tweak and deep dive into the tactics? I hate playing with downloaded tactics because i get a feel of not being me the manager and yes i win but at what cost? im starting to hate teams that gengenpress in real life as well coming from a LFC fan. But everytime someone has this frustrations people just say" oh thats because you dont understand the game and dont know how things work" ive asked multiple times for help , ive read books in football tactics , ive read alot of threads how to make good tactics and it just feels like it never works and its super frustrating.

Every game can be exploitable. Especially a simulator. You will always be frustrated if you try to apply real world tactics agains exploit tactics in an exploit-friendly enviroment (online).

When playing against friends just use the exploit systems to have fun. And then use the real life football tactics when playing against the AI.