High pressing and possession orientated style of play

[cmonreds]

5 hours ago, coach vahid said:

Sorry but i have no idea.

Me neither, the little I tried during testing weakened performance. The solution is probably small subtle OI's for very few of the opposition players. Either 1 or 2 players with weaknesses to exploit, or 1-2 players with strengths to avoid, or both for two players.

 

Update 27the December 26-27:

CL: Already qualified for the last 16

League

 

[cmonreds]

Training 1st team: Old schedules, training player roles and individual focus

Training 2nd team: Old schedules training player roles and individual focus

Training Youth team: New schedules and NO training player roles,only individual focus (ballcontrol/technique/passing/agility/acceleration during time at youth team - screenshots only ballcontrol)

Results:

1/2 stars potential trained first for 1 year old schedules and  9 months with the youth team schedules

1,5/2,5 stars potential trained for 9 months in the youth team

2/3 stars potential trained for 9 months in the youth team

2/3 stars potential trained first for 1 year old schedules and  9 months with the youth team schedules

2,5/3,5 stars potential trained first for 1 year old schedules and  9 months with the youth team schedules

3/4 stars potential trained  first for 1 year old schedules and  9 months with the youth team schedules

3,5/4,5 stars potential trained  first for 1 year old schedules and  9 months with the youth team schedules

4/5 stars potential trained for 9 months in the youth team (trains passing)

Will upload the training schedules tomorrow.

[cmonreds]

26-27 season finished. Priority was CL and the national cup, whilst still trying to pose at title challenge.

League

As soon as the CL games started weren't able to pose a title challenge. Possession at 61% shared 1st place with PSG.

French cup

Lost on penalties with the 2nd XI.

 

Champions League

League phase:

Round of 16 vs Lille

Quarter Final vs Arsenal

Semi Final vs Man City

Final vs Liverpool

All three versions of the tactic was used in the CL run, depending on scenario and events during the matches 1-3 versions of the tactic used in the same match. This was as close run...

Edited November 27, 2023 by cmonreds

[chrisnlnz]

Lol guy gave up, can't blame him. A thread named 'possession and control' and struggling to even achieve 60 percent . Possession football is dead in fm. For some reason central through balls and central play dont exist and wingers suddenly all have 1 ball control when receiving out wide, let alone cute inside with the ball. Yet people are claiming EVERY tactic is JUST as viable as gegenpress. Well I don't see them ANYWHERE, so they don't exist, not just this edition for years on already. The most polished edition right?  just look at my avatar, sums up this game and its developers in a nutshell.

[cmonreds]

20 hours ago, chrisnlnz said:

Lol guy gave up, can't blame him. A thread named 'possession and control' and struggling to even achieve 60 percent . Possession football is dead in fm. For some reason central through balls and central play dont exist and wingers suddenly all have 1 ball control when receiving out wide, let alone cute inside with the ball. Yet people are claiming EVERY tactic is JUST as viable as gegenpress. Well I don't see them ANYWHERE, so they don't exist, not just this edition for years on already. The most polished edition right?  just look at my avatar, sums up this game and its developers in a nutshell.

That is also a way of introducing yourself...

Quite the contrary I am enjoying FM and has acchieved what I want to do in regard to tactics.

You probably need to be enlightened about real world football, images shows possession stats for Ligue 1 this season, as well as for Premier League. My advice to you would be to look at them and see what the possession stats are for the best teams in real life.

[chrisnlnz]

enlightened about 'real' world football? exactly some of those teams DO NOT even play possession based football yet achieve 60+ percent possession while playing gegenpress. Prime barca in La Liga achieved over 70%, unfortunately that is impossible in this game and my whole point, in this game when you go above 60% , you know this as well, that you will stop creating chances and will shoot yourself in the food, because this ME cannot handle players like, iniesta, xavi,messi, daniel alves-abidal etc. but hey good for you, keep enjoying your 54% 'possession and control' football, just like real world football. ezel

[Maddux]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb chrisnlnz:

enlightened about 'real' world football? exactly some of those teams DO NOT even play possession based football yet achieve 60+ percent possession while playing gegenpress. Prime barca in La Liga achieved over 70%, unfortunately that is impossible in this game and my whole point, in this game when you go above 60% , you know this as well, that you will stop creating chances and will shoot yourself in the food, because this ME cannot handle players like, iniesta, xavi,messi, daniel alves-abidal etc. but hey good for you, keep enjoying your 54% 'possession and control' football, just like real world football. ezel

61% average possession and 95 goals in my first season with Dynamo Dresden. And i wasn't even trying to have high possession or to press high.

 

https://i.postimg.cc/FK59p6vh/drepos.jpg

 

https://i.postimg.cc/TwTTMWhS/dretab.jpg

[cmonreds]

3 hours ago, chrisnlnz said:

enlightened about 'real' world football? exactly some of those teams DO NOT even play possession based football yet achieve 60+ percent possession while playing gegenpress. Prime barca in La Liga achieved over 70%, unfortunately that is impossible in this game and my whole point, in this game when you go above 60% , you know this as well, that you will stop creating chances and will shoot yourself in the food, because this ME cannot handle players like, iniesta, xavi,messi, daniel alves-abidal etc. but hey good for you, keep enjoying your 54% 'possession and control' football, just like real world football. ezel

• Football has evolved a lot during these +10 years, in most of the top leagues today it is not possible to recreate prime Barca times in regard to possession, as these leagues are more competittive. Look at the possession numbers for the top five leagues in Europe and see what the possession stats are. 
• Gegenpress can give high possession numbers for good teams, able at regaining possession and and passing the ball, nothing wrong with that.
• For single "easy" matches high/very high numbers for possession can be acchieved. Also high xG can be acchieved with high possession. But for the whole season with Rennes and their players possession averages between 60-64 % for the whole season so far in FM24. 

[cmonreds]

4 hours ago, Maddux said:

61% average possession and 95 goals in my first season with Dynamo Dresden. And i wasn't even trying to have high possession or to press high.

 

https://i.postimg.cc/FK59p6vh/drepos.jpg

 

https://i.postimg.cc/TwTTMWhS/dretab.jpg

You probably have a good tactical set-up.

[Maddux]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb cmonreds:

You probably have a good tactical set-up.

So good that i wrote a thread about it

 

[rodau]

I would like to share some thoughts just about ball possession and FM.

1. I think the game is unfair when the player has high ball possession rates. You are "punished" by leaking goals and the opponent converting by having only 5 or 9 actions in your area.

2. Objectively, there is a tendency for the AI CDs to hold the ball and pass the ball between them, gaining a lot of possession, and you cannot take the ball from them.

3. In FM24 I notice that pressing forwards defend better than wingers, as players on the sides fail to press in the middle, while forwards runs in all spaces of the field to regain possession.

4. My current tactic is centered around a 4-3-3 and I have had interesting results. In small leagues like Russia and Turkey I have around 71% ball possession. In top leagues like England and Italy I reach 62~63%.

5. I gave up on using a single tactic. I have a more direct one until I'm winning the game. After scoring, I change it to one that focus to hold the ball more. If you only play with just one tactic, the AI will park the bus and score from free kicks or counter attacks, ruining your game.

 

I'm not satisfied yet. My goal is to always have +65% ball possession, including in the big leagues.

[cmonreds]

3 minutes ago, rodau said:

I would like to share some thoughts just about ball possession and FM.

1. I think the game is unfair when the player has high ball possession rates. You are "punished" by leaking goals and the opponent converting by having only 5 or 9 actions in your area.

2. Objectively, there is a tendency for the AI CDs to hold the ball and pass the ball between them, gaining a lot of possession, and you cannot take the ball from them.

3. In FM24 I notice that pressing forwards defend better than wingers, as players on the sides fail to press in the middle, while forwards runs in all spaces of the field to regain possession.

4. My current tactic is centered around a 4-3-3 and I have had interesting results. In small leagues like Russia and Turkey I have around 71% ball possession. In top leagues like England and Italy I reach 62~63%.

5. I gave up on using a single tactic. I have a more direct one until I'm winning the game. After scoring, I change it to one that focus to hold the ball more. If you only play with just one tactic, the AI will park the bus and score from free kicks or counter attacks, ruining your game.

 

I'm not satisfied yet. My goal is to always have +65% ball possession, including in the big leagues.

Thanks for sharing and I hear you. It is probably FM's way of punishing teams considered "not good enough" when acchieving high possession and mimick the consequences from real life. There is no plug and play if not exploiting this year, initially I used counter when playing with balanced mentality. Now only changing mentality dependant on match and what is happening. Probably change the passing patterns dependant on opposition could be one path to explore.

[rodau]

Yes, like Guardiola did in the game against Bayern in the last Champions League, giving possession to the opponent.

The ME of the game gives an advantage to quick passes behind the defense, which is difficult when you want to maintain possession of the ball.

Even with these results I am unhappy. My ball possession was just 62%

[cmonreds]

17 minutes ago, rodau said:

Yes, like Guardiola did in the game against Bayern in the last Champions League, giving possession to the opponent.

The ME of the game gives an advantage to quick passes behind the defense, which is difficult when you want to maintain possession of the ball.

Even with these results I am unhappy. My ball possession was just 62%

Pretty solid results  I totally understand you wanting higher possession numbers. With this preference of playing style possession % indicates how good your team/tactic is at passing and keeping the ball, as well as pressing and regaining possession. The higher the number the better team/tactic. Still, this is the possession numbers for Seria A so far this year.

Be satiesfied with what you have acchieved, you are doing vey well 

[rodau]

@cmonreds Just finished a season with Rennes. No transfers and only 11 goals from corners.

Here the results:

 

[rodau]

I think to have more possession you have to decrease your chances to win matches 

[cmonreds]

6 hours ago, rodau said:

I think to have more possession you have to decrease your chances to win matches 

very good results, maybe I am on a cul-de-sac with the very fluid tactics... I have not won Ligue 1 in the first season with Rennes..

[fadesany]

@rodau really impressive results. What tactic did you use?

[rodau]

Em 19/12/2023 em 22:10, cmonreds disse:

very good results, maybe I am on a cul-de-sac with the very fluid tactics... I have not won Ligue 1 in the first season with Rennes..

It was a last round win, but I happy with my approach. Unfortunately to have more possession I have to impair my chances to win games. 

[rodau]

21 horas atrás, fadesany disse:

@rodau really impressive results. What tactic did you use?

A mix between a more fast pass tactic and other that seeks to keep more the ball 

[chrisnlnz]

On 18/12/2023 at 00:00, cmonreds said:

• Football has evolved a lot during these +10 years, in most of the top leagues today it is not possible to recreate prime Barca times in regard to possession, as these leagues are more competittive. Look at the possession numbers for the top five leagues in Europe and see what the possession stats are. 
• Gegenpress can give high possession numbers for good teams, able at regaining possession and and passing the ball, nothing wrong with that.
• For single "easy" matches high/very high numbers for possession can be acchieved. Also high xG can be acchieved with high possession. But for the whole season with Rennes and their players possession averages between 60-64 % for the whole season so far in FM24. 

Its about possession football philosophy, numbers are helpful, but not my point. In 1974 we had total football, players changing positions and filling for each other. Something as simple as this isn't even possible. Possession football was derived from cruyff and its principles. Having a lot of possession, will make opponents run more and become frustrated and more prone to error. A old fkn concept, and not available in game. You love stats so much right? Check your in game distance run, and you will see no differences in distance run of you and your opponent, who plays another style. This is just ONE example, there are more. This game is supposed to resemble football, yet the rules are different, football concepts dont apply in fm. Heck ake and walker , overlap sometimes as an ifb, yet even though heavy man city marketed , we cant even replicate this simple concept. Or like one wing back attacking and the other staying back, basic football concept, yet again not available in game. The lack of possession based tactics in the last years are a result of how garbage this me and company is. Even fm arena confirms how disasterous the plug and play tiki taka tactic is , i.e. playing this style is shooting yourself in the foot even with years of squad building whatever. BUT a fkn knap tactic, a creator who was been laughed at years ago, now the top creator, use his tactic and your team will perform better in like a week. 

You're tactic is the best I've seen and used from forums all over, but still for me not satisfying when i watch it play out, as you get battered against teams (not only top teams) who full press.

[cmonreds]

4 hours ago, chrisnlnz said:

Its about possession football philosophy, numbers are helpful, but not my point. In 1974 we had total football, players changing positions and filling for each other. Something as simple as this isn't even possible. Possession football was derived from cruyff and its principles. Having a lot of possession, will make opponents run more and become frustrated and more prone to error. A old fkn concept, and not available in game. You love stats so much right? Check your in game distance run, and you will see no differences in distance run of you and your opponent, who plays another style. This is just ONE example, there are more. This game is supposed to resemble football, yet the rules are different, football concepts dont apply in fm. Heck ake and walker , overlap sometimes as an ifb, yet even though heavy man city marketed , we cant even replicate this simple concept. Or like one wing back attacking and the other staying back, basic football concept, yet again not available in game. The lack of possession based tactics in the last years are a result of how garbage this me and company is. Even fm arena confirms how disasterous the plug and play tiki taka tactic is , i.e. playing this style is shooting yourself in the foot even with years of squad building whatever. BUT a fkn knap tactic, a creator who was been laughed at years ago, now the top creator, use his tactic and your team will perform better in like a week. 

You're tactic is the best I've seen and used from forums all over, but still for me not satisfying when i watch it play out, as you get battered against teams (not only top teams) who full press.

Business Intelligence and improve operations from data is my thing, you got that right, for football the core activity where the value creation/production occurs is on the pitch. I agree and you have a point about distance run. By being compact/keeping possession there should be less distance run both for in and out of possession.

I am not saying the ME/game is perfect, my preference for tactics creation are totally different than the current editor. The biggest difference being now you have to choose described roles and TI's, would be much better to position the players for different areas of the pitch for both attacking/defending, assigned passing length and multiple directions with priorities, allowed to run with ball/shoot/cross at different areas of the pitch. What is now instructions/roles could instead be descriptions based on how you set-up your tactics. Still, I enjoy the game, there are no other decent alternatives for people who likes football and wants manage a team. Started a thread in the tactics discussion forum, will test this tactic during the holidays. It should be decent/quite good for what I want to acchieve. Against Reims in Ligue 1 which are gegenpressing and quite a good team, the tactic performed (related to your comment about high pressing and being battered).

For me the very fluid description with several support duties saves the possession based style in FM. You will se better pressing, players change positions both in defence  and attack. Does the tactic work a 100 % as I want to, no it does not, but it is something I can use and enjoy. I wish you well for the holidays and hope you can enjoy FM as it is, there is no point in playing it if you dislike the game.

Edited December 24, 2023 by cmonreds

[fadesany]

On 21/12/2023 at 18:03, rodau said:

A mix between a more fast pass tactic and other that seeks to keep more the ball 

Can you pls share tactic?

[rodau]

Em 29/12/2023 em 12:07, fadesany disse:

Can you pls share tactic?

I not working more on the tactics.
Anormal for goal and direct play
Aposse to keep the possession.

FM's ME is not Tiki Taka friendly and makes you decide between ball possession or win games.
Good luck!

A Normal.fmf A posse.fmf

[01revenge]

took great inspiration from @cmonredsto develop this tactic and some unreal individuals performances using his training schedules 

[GUTI7777]

Hey, friend. Thank you for the advice, but your training plan can't be imported into FM24, why is that?

[cmonreds]

On 21/01/2024 at 23:19, 01revenge said:

took great inspiration from @cmonredsto develop this tactic and some unreal individuals performances using his training schedules 

Impressive Thanks for sharing your tactic. How did it end? 

[TheMartello]

On 21/01/2024 at 23:19, 01revenge said:

took great inspiration from @cmonredsto develop this tactic and some unreal individuals performances using his training schedules 

Did you use any Player Instructions?

[01revenge]

4 hours ago, cmonreds said:

Impressive Thanks for sharing your tactic. How did it end? 

we won the league and the champions league and I'm hoping to continue our dominance in the carabao cup!

[01revenge]

2 hours ago, TheMartello said:

Did you use any Player Instructions?

here are the instructions and players who the most important as to how i setup Rashford on the left acts like a second striker when in possession while my wingers on the right stay wider allowing Dalot to invert i also wanna point out how truly remarkable mason mount is in football manager i truly think he is the most most complete midfielder in game behind Bellingham

[poma]

13 hours ago, 01revenge said:

here are the instructions and players who the most important as to how i setup Rashford on the left acts like a second striker when in possession while my wingers on the right stay wider allowing Dalot to invert i also wanna point out how truly remarkable mason mount is in football manager i truly think he is the most most complete midfielder in game behind Bellingham

Mind share this tactic? with all the settings/player instructions/roles etc?

[whatsupdoc]

On 20/12/2023 at 05:18, rodau said:

@cmonreds Just finished a season with Rennes. No transfers and only 11 goals from corners.

Here the results:

 

 

Is this how you're playing in fm24?

This engine is kind of a disaster for tiki taka, slower tactics (for me anyway).

[cmonreds]

On 30/01/2024 at 02:59, GUTI7777 said:

Hey, friend. Thank you for the advice, but your training plan can't be imported into FM24, why is that?

This thread has both FM23 and FM24 training schedules, training has changed in FM24 where some match preparation sessions has been removed. That is the reason. There is more stuff about training with training schedules in a thread named club DNA el rondo in the tactics forum.

[cmonreds]

18 hours ago, 01revenge said:

we won the league and the champions league and I'm hoping to continue our dominance in the carabao cup!

Congratulations,

Good feeling when titles are won. I really like how you have developed the tactic and added your ideas to it.

[alex1234]

On 26/11/2023 at 17:49, cmonreds said:

Training 1st team: Old schedules, training player roles and individual focus

Training 2nd team: Old schedules training player roles and individual focus

Training Youth team: New schedules and NO training player roles,only individual focus (ballcontrol/technique/passing/agility/acceleration during time at youth team - screenshots only ballcontrol)

Results:

1/2 stars potential trained first for 1 year old schedules and  9 months with the youth team schedules

1,5/2,5 stars potential trained for 9 months in the youth team

2/3 stars potential trained for 9 months in the youth team

2/3 stars potential trained first for 1 year old schedules and  9 months with the youth team schedules

2,5/3,5 stars potential trained first for 1 year old schedules and  9 months with the youth team schedules

3/4 stars potential trained  first for 1 year old schedules and  9 months with the youth team schedules

3,5/4,5 stars potential trained  first for 1 year old schedules and  9 months with the youth team schedules

4/5 stars potential trained for 9 months in the youth team (trains passing)

Will upload the training schedules tomorrow.

Dud u ever end up posting your own training schedules 

[rodau]

16 horas atrás, whatsupdoc disse:

 

Is this how you're playing in fm24?

This engine is kind of a disaster for tiki taka, slower tactics (for me anyway).

I agree with you.
Playing with big teams I have satisfying football (65% ball possession, pressing and few chances for the opponent). 
I found that a flat 4-3-3 is the best formation on this ME to recover faster the ball - despite the gap between the DC's and MC's that leaks some stupid goals.

I love 4-1-2-3 formations with wingers, but they are awful on marking. The pressing forwards are OP in defense tasks, so I stick with them.
My issues with the ME is when I play with poor quality teams. Even dominating the game I have some painful issues.

Lets see the final patch! 

[01revenge]

league domination continues hoping for more champions league success wanted to highlight my key players and show our shape looks in possession.