High pressing and possession orientated style of play

[cmonreds]

14 hours ago, yonko said:

@cmonreds

Have you tried using the Rest tab where you can set players to train with Half Intensity or Rest based on their physical condition after match? Alternatively, you can also manually select your whole starting eleven and give them a day off, while the rest of your squad practices based on your schedule. I find either option very useful, especially in the second half of the season when I need my best 11 for most matches as I challenge for trophies. 

 

Hi yonko,

It is a good suggestion which I haven't tried yet. I have been meticulous in squad rotation and making sure that players with high injury risk is not played, as well as substituing more during matches. Improvements made are:

1. The squad size is expanded from 23 (3 GK = a GK is the 23th "extra" player) to 26 ("Extra" GK, Defender, Midfielder, Attacker) to prevent players with high injury risk from playing.
2. Expanded the number of physios as well.
3. Also the Rennes reserve team were not playing in the National 2 the first season, this made it harder to keep players the "extra" players match fit. The 2nd season they are playing in the National 2 league and extra players are match fit when needed.

This has led to a decrease in injuries and in reality it hasn't been an issue, as per 5 October 2024:

In regard to player development the schedules are working very well (General, individual training handled by manager for 1st, reserves and U19 teams):

Jaquet, 19 years, Individual focus quickness:

Belocian, 19,5 years, individual focus quickness:

Doue, 19 years, individual focus passing/attacking movement:

Lambourde, 18,5 years, individual focus finishing/quickness

The training schedules broadly increases attributes. It is possible to further narrow attributes increase in regard to the tactical style/preferences for attribute increase by applying two General possession sessions for Tiki Taka tactics and so on,, Set-pieces are not prioritized for training and attributes for this is decreasing. Ideally set-pieces instructions should reflect this by emphasizing short set-pieces and focusing on keeping hold of the ball.

Edited October 28, 2023 by cmonreds

[cmonreds]

FM 24 version of tactic and training schedules

TeamWorkRate_3-4-3_box build-up.fmf

Set Pieces_tiki taka_(Pep_Barca).fmf

Pre Season.fmf

No Match.fmf1_Friday.fmf1_Saturday.fmf1_Sunday.fmf2_Tuesday_Saturday.fmf2_Tuesday_Sunday.fmf2_Wednesday_Saturday.fmf2_Wednesday_Sunday.fmf2_Thursday_Sunday.fmf

 

The tactic is now purely tiki taka with lower intensity. It is narrow in possession which couples well with counter press.

 

Tactical changes

• Wide defenders moved from wingback to fullback position and the role of Inverted fullback

This gives good amount of width in the defence line during possession, as well as the inverted fullback contributes further up the pitch as passing outlets and the occasional overlap. For narrow attacking width and IW's with PI sit narrower this is important for play in the wide areas.

• Half back changed to defensive midfielder support
• Left DC changed from Central defender to Libero support

Image below shows the 3-2 build up where Theate is Libero support

 

• Offensive transition changed from counter to hold shape
• All hard tackling removed and applying TI stay on feet
• Some changes to set-pieces copying Pep Guardiola's set-pieces when managing Barcelona

 

Comments to the training schedules

TBA

Edited October 30, 2023 by cmonreds

[TheMartello]

 

Gonna try it later tonight

What are your results? 

[rafagr2023]

Hi.Just tried the old version yesterday and really appreciated the tactical style.I"ll give a try with my watford on second season.Know is going to be diffcult bit will worth.

at the momente assistance manager dealing with traininhg because im not good at all.

thanks

Edited October 30, 2023 by rafagr2023

[cmonreds]

10 hours ago, TheMartello said:

 

Gonna try it later tonight

What are your results? 

I am into the third season, started the save with the FM23 gegenpress version, it still works well but is intensive and wears on the squad. TI's and PI's have gradually been changed to reduce intensity with the end result being a tiki taka style of play. Possession as a defensive measure and controlling matches are some of the aims. The tactic should be defensively solid, acchieve high possession numbers and have good xG numbers.

The second league match for the third season I started to use the FM24 tactic and had to retrain some players roles, as well as gaining tactical familiarity with the tactic. Things are going quite well considering the young squad, decent in ability but mostly future potential. The last match played against relegation strugglers Troyes:

Priority (best players used) is to qualify for the knockout rounds of CL. Often playing with youngsters in the league matches. League table, PSG played one game more than Rennes:

Champions League, lost against Chelsea.

Matches played:

Numbers:

Best numbers for possession, pass completion and goals scored.

This one is important, Rennes have a spare match and most likely will surpass PSG with around 100 final 3rd passes when even in matches:

Numbers in Europe:

 

Matches has been watched on key highligths during the first two seasons, decisions on changes have mainly been made on metrics and numbers. Now in the third season matches are watched on extended/comprehensive mode as the first season only using the FM24 tactic. There might be tweaks, improvements and complementary versions of the tactic based on what is seen during matches. Regarding defending corners we have conceded a few from runner at the near post. Tactical/set-pieces flaw or down to player attributes? If the first it will be corrected.

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by cmonreds

[cmonreds]

2 hours ago, rafagr2023 said:

Hi.Just tried the old version yesterday and really appreciated the tactical style.I"ll give a try with my watford on second season.Know is going to be diffcult bit will worth.

at the momente assistance manager dealing with traininhg because im not good at all.

thanks

Nice to hear, please share if you succesfully tweak the tactic or find flaws in it. Good luck with your season 

[rodau]

@cmonreds How do you create clear chances? In FM you only have these chances  with long balls behind the defense, what is hard in a ball possession tactic. I have a tiki taka style that gives me a lot of possession, but I often end up 0-0 or lose the game because the players don't get into the opponent's defense.

[cmonreds]

49 minutes ago, rodau said:

@cmonreds How do you create clear chances? In FM you only have these chances  with long balls behind the defense, what is hard in a ball possession tactic. I have a tiki taka style that gives me a lot of possession, but I often end up 0-0 or lose the game because the players don't get into the opponent's defense.

Impressive numbers for possession and passing accuracy  Look at the final thirds statistics for for your division, there should be a correlation there by you ranking very high in that as well. I am curious where on the pitch/which zones do you have possession? With the FM23 tactic between 46-52 % where on the oppositions half, currently much lower percentage for the current tactic.

It is all about positional play, creating triangles/diamonds/passing lanes that regularly occurs during matches with your tactic, they should enable diagonal and vertical passes as an option for the player with the ball, lateral passes from the sides of the box. Try to imagine the build up during the different phases:

1) How are your players positioned for the goal kick

2) Own third / middle third / final third, especially the last is important for creating chances, what are the runs? which space do you threaten? how many players do you have in the box? Ideally all channels should be utilized, what are your formation? Striker/winger roles? Central midfield roles? I have been looking at fluid/very fluid team fluidity in the process, I might follow that path further...

2) Also consider the phase, where player roles/duties/TI/PI kicks in (For the positional player roles, the positioning applies when your team is established/secure in posession)

Draw each phase on paper for your own clarity. First how you believe your current tactic behaves, secondly how you ideally want it to behave, if there is a mismatch it is easier to adress it this way.

I am currently working on it as I am not satisfied with the positioning and diamonds/triangles with my current tactic, the results where decent but as I started to watch matches on comprehensive there is room for improvement. Especially the positional rotation roles are new and I try to find the purpose of why I should use one of theme, there has to be a benefit either positional or by utilizing a certain players attributes.

The easiest way is to increase width/vertical compactness which alters positions and angles for passes, but this is at the expense of the pressing block and effective counter press. I guess I am searching for the optimum for both possession and out of possession for the tactic.

Feel free to share your tactic in the thread 

Edited November 1, 2023 by cmonreds

[rodau]

23 minutos atrás, cmonreds disse:

I guess I am searching for the optimum for both possession and out of possession for the tactic.

It's my obsession too .

Thanks for the feedback! I'm trying on Premier League (long and wide pitches) with Arsenal aiming to have 65% or more of ball possession.

With Benfica save (where the fields are small and helps the tika taka) I had 76% in average, but too much draws.

I removed work the ball into box and got more shoots with a small decrease of the possession.
 

I will share my approach later when I'll be at my home.
 

 

[cmonreds]

1 hour ago, rodau said:

I will share my approach later when I'll be at my home.
 

Looking forward to it.

The ideal setup for me is without the new roles see screenshot below (except the HB which is used together with WB's to play against opponents that are strong in the centre of the pitch ), it allows for narrow attacking width (good transition to defence AKA counter press for my preference), IW's attacking duty positoned narrow to exploit the channels/space behind defence line which a DLF on support or F9 dropping deep creates, WB's on support that maintaining width in all phases/thirds of the possessional play

Screenshot tactic:

On the pitch balll in own third:

Positioning is good, lots of diamonds/triangles that enables diagonal/vertical passing. If a player is pressured there are lots of passing options.

On the pitch ball in middle third:

Only diagonal or vertical passes made to transfer the ball into the middle third. Abline (DLF support) has dropped deep as well 

Le Fee receives the ball and the first backwards pass as he is under pressure.

continues below...

Edited November 1, 2023 by cmonreds

[cmonreds]

2nd backwards pass from CM to CD.

The team are in total control, if pressured there are lots of safe passing options (also safe passes backwards). The ball is circulated to the other flank..

5-10 passes later the ball has reached to furthest player in the middle diamond (DLF dropping deep). This is a decent attacking scenario, the opponents whole defensive third is available/free space..

[cmonreds]

DLF is pressured, backward pass and ball cirulated to the rigth diamond, the team is probing for an opening.

Vertical pass into the final third to the right IW .

An immediate cross on the first touch where the DLF and left IW are in good positons to score.

Celebrations 

 

This is a good example of positional play and how I imagined the team would attack, right of the handbook. This is old school, adjusting to and using the new positional rotation roles (well suited for 3-2-5 / 2-3-5 / 2-5-3 build ups) changes things a little bit for me, the IW's alternatively wingers must stay wide and the link up play with the DLF might suffer from this. Currently I am trying to figure out how to acchieve the right diamonds/triangles for the teams shape by using them. The big benefit of acchieving that is good defensively balance in the centre of the pitch, which is important when trapping outside.

[rodau]

I still tweaking TI and Pi. Not sure if positive or balanced is better...

I've found that IFB is crucial to gain (and retain possession). I have a Líbero on support and he is great for this tactic!

The style is a 4-3-3. On my tests, 3 strikers are better to regain possession than wingers with 2 pressing forwards.

I love how my players quickly steal the ball. I on the right track to make a Pep Guardiola/Russel Martin/Luis Enrique tactic.

Maybe I share the tactic if the results are good

[rodau]

I quick try on Premier League. I think that they are good

 

[cmonreds]

17 hours ago, rodau said:

I still tweaking TI and Pi. Not sure if positive or balanced is better...

I've found that IFB is crucial to gain (and retain possession). I have a Líbero on support and he is great for this tactic!

The style is a 4-3-3. On my tests, 3 strikers are better to regain possession than wingers with 2 pressing forwards.

I love how my players quickly steal the ball. I on the right track to make a Pep Guardiola/Russel Martin/Luis Enrique tactic.

Maybe I share the tactic if the results are good

Interesting tactic, you use the 3-2 build-up/rest defence. What attacking width are the tactic? Are you familiar with the term minimum width?

 

Will update later on the tactic, I am very satiesfied now for how the players position themselves in the middle and final third when in possession. Went for fluid team fluidity and a 2-3 build-up/rest defence. Will work on a version with 3-2 build-up for the big matches as well.

[cmonreds]

Tactic as reference for player roles/duties and positioning in the images

I spent some time playing matches only focusing on positioning. All players roles where possible were given PI of cross less, take fewer passing risks, cross less often, dribble less and also no roaming in the beginning. The short passing and positioning of players created progression and clear cut chances. Next step is to optimize the PI's with risk reward towards loosing possession and creating chances.

Also Guardiola during his reign at Barcelona (probably now as well), considered the impact of the strong foot of the pass receiver for the passing patterns.. I will have this at the back of my head when the real save game begins to see if it has an effect in FM24.

Positioning in possession  the middle third - centre

- The CM's and IW's are staying wider. This creates more space for the DLF to drop into.

Positioning in possession the middle third - flanks

- Create triangles/diamonds wide to support the IW's (Important as they are staying wider with attacking duty in a tactic with narrow attacking width)

Positioning in possession the final third - flanks

- Create triangles/diamonds wide and support the IW's

- The DM (Santamaria) positions higher up the pitch (Due to CM's staying wider) - considered a roaming playmaker for this role, but didn't want the playmaker to be a ball magnet (with riskier passes) which disturbs the natural passing patterns enabled by players positioning. Still, there is an unfullfilled potential with the DM role in using the available space created in the middle of the pitch early on and when DLF roams to the flanks or take an attacking position higher up.

Positioning in possession the final third - centre

- The ball has just entered the final third and the DM (Santamaria) forward runs occurs late, preferrably this should be exploited earlier.

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by cmonreds

[coach vahid]

Le 01/11/2023 à 20:50, cmonreds a dit :

Looking forward to it.

The ideal setup for me is without the new roles see screenshot below (except the HB which is used together with WB's to play against opponents that are strong in the centre of the pitch ), it allows for narrow attacking width (good transition to defence AKA counter press for my preference), IW's attacking duty positoned narrow to exploit the channels/space behind defence line which a DLF on support or F9 dropping deep creates, WB's on support that maintaining width in all phases/thirds of the possessional play

Screenshot tactic:

On the pitch balll in own third:

Positioning is good, lots of diamonds/triangles that enables diagonal/vertical passing. If a player is pressured there are lots of passing options.

On the pitch ball in middle third:

Only diagonal or vertical passes made to transfer the ball into the middle third. Abline (DLF support) has dropped deep as well 

Le Fee receives the ball and the first backwards pass as he is under pressure.

continues below...

This is the set up i adapt on fm 22 with the PI's from your 23 version and a half back on Dm position. I've got results and i like how the team play.

Just a few observations ( i know that is not the same game anymore)...

When i play with an Advanced forward i lost possession (55-60 %)but i am more dangerous. With the deep lying forward i increase possession a lot but it difficult to create chances. I think for the deep lying forward you really need players with strong physicals qualities, to keep the ball and pass it. And if he lost the ball it can be very dangerous for your defense in transition ( The PI stay wider for the CB's leave a gap between them ). Maybe adapt with the famous trick ( half back when i play vs 2 forwards and a Dm on defend vs 1 but now with stay wider off ).

For your last set up i'm a little scared...The Inverted wing back, if they have space and time, tend to go forward not always but sometimes and with a Dm on support it seems difficult to have a good defensive transition. But i don't say that it doesn't work.

I hope that you find the balance that are you looking for.

 

[cmonreds]

2 hours ago, coach vahid said:

This is the set up i adapt on fm 22 with the PI's from your 23 version and a half back on Dm position. I've got results and i like how the team play.

Just a few observations ( i know that is not the same game anymore)...

When i play with an Advanced forward i lost possession (55-60 %)but i am more dangerous. With the deep lying forward i increase possession a lot but it difficult to create chances. I think for the deep lying forward you really need players with strong physicals qualities, to keep the ball and pass it. And if he lost the ball it can be very dangerous for your defense in transition ( The PI stay wider for the CB's leave a gap between them ). Maybe adapt with the famous trick ( half back when i play vs 2 forwards and a Dm on defend vs 1 but now with stay wider off ).

For your last set up i'm a little scared...The Inverted wing back, if they have space and time, tend to go forward not always but sometimes and with a Dm on support it seems difficult to have a good defensive transition. But i don't say that it doesn't work.

I hope that you find the balance that are you looking for.

 

Thanks for advice man, you are pretty much spot on with your analysis.

I tweaked at the end of January, got hammered against the big teams. Maybe i found the balance..

Will update later..

Edited November 3, 2023 by cmonreds

[cmonreds]

Perhaps I have spent to much time on tactics, after a while you don't see the wood for all the trees. For what the tactic should acchieve the obvious solution is a 3-2 build-up/rest defence with inverted fullbacks on each side, as well as utilizing a libero on support (John Stones role).

Three at the back with the inverted fullbacks offer width and support on the flanks, this greatly increase the passing patterns with lateral, diagonal and vertical angles. Important benefit is that the IFB's sometimes also ventures forward and contributes as fullbacks when the circumstances are correct (Back three clearly outnumbering opposition forwards staying forward). 

Rennes in white colours in image below:

In possession with the ball in central areas the shape of the team is spread out in a fan formation.

The tactic are in two versions:

Flexible fluidity

TeamWorkRate_433 - 325 build up_IFB's LIB_flexible.fmf

Fluid (Against strong opposition, used to win the CL in third season)

TeamWorkRate_433 - 325 build up_IFB's LIB.fmf

 

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by cmonreds

[coach vahid]

Le 04/11/2023 à 00:51, cmonreds a dit :

Perhaps I have spent to much time on tactics, after a while you don't see the wood for all the trees. For what the tactic should acchieve the obvious solution is a 3-2 build-up/rest defence with inverted fullbacks on each side, as well as utilizing a libero on support (John Stones role).

Three at the back with the inverted fullbacks offer width and support on the flanks, this greatly increase the passing patterns with lateral, diagonal and vertical angles. Important benefit is that the IFB's sometimes also ventures forward and contributes as fullbacks when the circumstances are correct (Back three clearly outnumbering opposition forwards staying forward). 

Rennes in white colours in image below:

In possession with the ball in central areas the shape of the team is spread out in a fan formation.

The tactic are in two versions:

Flexible fluidity

TeamWorkRate_433 - 325 build up_IFB's LIB_flexible.fmf 42.24 Ko · 21 downloads

Fluid (Against strong opposition, used to win the CL in third season)

TeamWorkRate_433 - 325 build up_IFB's LIB.fmf 42.2 Ko · 16 downloads

 

 

Can you explain the idea between the 2 versions and share the PI's please ?

Thanks.

[PeacemakerBR]

Em 02/11/2023 em 00:24, rodau disse:

I quick try on Premier League. I think that they are good

 

Impressive! Could you share your tactic? Thanks!

[rodau]

Hi guys.

Sorry for the absence. I was on holidays and just returned today.

I made some adjustments and I have a final tactic.. I must say that FM is a bit unfair with high possession tactics and it's very frustrating to lose games that I dominated all aspects of the game. Maybe you people can tweak to avoid stupid counterattack and set pieces goals . Anyways, it's a solid tactic that would make Pep and De Zerbi proud 

Here my last run on AC Milan (no signings). Some stupid red cards and unfair results impaired my Serie A run, but it was a solid try.

It's a plug and play tactic, with the assistant taking care of everything (training, OI, SP, etc). It has great potencial and I hope that people here can improve it (of course if the tactic survive the after beta).

Some shots of my latest try:

And the tactic itself

   

Tiki Taka 4-4-3 Final.fmf

Edited November 6, 2023 by rodau

[cmonreds]

On 05/11/2023 at 09:20, coach vahid said:

Can you explain the idea between the 2 versions and share the PI's please ?

Thanks.

PI's are following the same line of thought as the FM23 tactic (gegenpressing version), except that IW's stay wider, CM's added stay wider/get further forward (due to no wingbacks and IW's for attacking width).

The line of thought is that is my impression that possession numbers and pressing possibly ties stronger with team fluidity this year, meaning fluid/very fluid increases possession/quality of pressing, atleast for tactics with narrow attacking width. For fluid tactics with balanced/positive mentality minimum requirement is 6 outfield support duties.

My preference is to play with IW's on attacking duty, but since I would have to alter the 3-2 build-up/rest defence to a 2-3 shape, I prioritized the defensive side of the game with just one attacking duty for the DLF  to keep the 3-2 shapefor the big matches. It is a defensive measurement, not only in number of duties allocated to either attacking/defending but also for keeping possession and quality of pressing (tiki taka measurer to decrease risk).

Playing with the IW's on attacking duty is preferred and alternatives to do this is:

1. Alternatively changing to a 2-3 build-up is possible as this keeps the IW's on attacking duty, I have tried both central defenders as LIbero's with fullback inverted against 4-3-3 tactics, it has worked well for short tests.During testing consistently high possession numbers have been acchieved between 70-80 % against lesser teams, and in the 60's against equal/better teams (might improve by a well considered reducing risk for PI's when players has the ball). It is also worth looking at balanced mentality version of the tactic, this has been tried and should be a part of the arsenal of slightly different versions of the same tactical style.
2. Alternatively change to attacking mentality as this reduces the required support duties for fluid tactics to 5. With this mentality both the 3-2 build-up and IW's attacking duty can be kept.

Alternative 1

Alternative 2

Regarding PI's when a player has the ball, to reduce risk/increase possession reducing the dribbles, passing risk and crosses could be emphasized, as long as the positional play (triangles/diamonds) is working well the ball will be distributed and create chances. Positioning of players in relationship to eachother are having the biggest effect on passing (Passing risk, crossing, dribbling currently at mixed = players are free to decide).

Two examples of how positioning affects passing and counterpress below, bear in mind randomness influencing results/statistics, stil it gives an first impression/slight idea of how this can work (click on image and switch between for easier comparison)

1st example - no changes to PI's playing with tactic from alternative 1 (balanced mentality and 2-3 build-up)

2nd example - MC's (stay wider/get further forward) and IW's (stay wider) changes to PI's playing with tactic from alternative 1 (balanced mentality and 2-3 build-up)

Comments: The 2nd example's tactic decreased lateral/sideways compactness compared to the 1st example tactic. This has both benefits and drawbacks and the most likely impact is:

• The compact block/counterpress is weakened in the middle and the opponents increased both the xG and shots.
• Passed completed decreased for defence whilst increased for attack. Regarding defence the reason might be more diagonal passes as the comparison of passing patterns show. Regarding attack when IW's and CM's stay wider space opens up for the DLF and in the middle. This can clearly be seen by comparison of the passing patterns.
• More tackles and more tackles won for the 2nd example tactic. Possession in general (also interceptions) are acchieved higher up the pitch for the 2nd example tactic and in areas where players are positioned. Increased tackling ratio, efficiency and higher up the pitch might be due to Monaco playing a 3-4-2-1 AMC's with Wingplay.
• Opponents progressive passes reduced due to increased wide pressing for the 2nd example tactic, comparing avg. pos. out of possession, the team is positioned slightly higher up the pitch for this version.
• Final third passes increased sligthly for Monaco and significantly for Rennes with the 2nd example tactic. This can be seen by comparing passing patterns and the increased amount of passes higher up the pitch.
• The OPPDA sees fewer OPPDA for Rennes for the 2nd example tactic, This is due to more players wide and counter pressing Monaco on the flanks.

The purpose of this reply is to show the interrelationship between positioning and the effect for both pressing and passing for the current tactical set-up. If I should draw any conclusions after the analysis it would be that the 1st example tactic (compact) is most suited against opponents that wants to attack and press, the team is compact and vertical passing enables exploitation of the space behind. The 2nd example tactic (wider PI's) can be more suited against teams sitting back by creating space and increased passing in the final third. The different approaches/versions can also be applied to counter opposition weaknesses and strengths. The tactics are the same except minor adjustments for PI's for players positioning when the team has the ball.

Regarding emphasizing on symmetric tactics the benefit is versatility towards where to attack the opponents, probing play will find its way where there are openings (think of how water falls down a hill), still it would be much easier to abandon symmetry and concentrating on keeping attacking width at just one flank of the tactic, Guardiola does this in real life and on FM24 as well.

Edited November 6, 2023 by cmonreds

[cmonreds]

5 hours ago, rodau said:

 

 

Tiki Taka 4-4-3 Final.fmf 44.78 kB · 6 downloads

That is impressive Will have a look at the tactic.

[cmonreds]

6 hours ago, rodau said:

And the tactic itself

Tiki Taka 4-4-3 Final.fmf 44.78 kB · 7 downloads

I had a go at your tactic for the Monaco game covered earlier. It is unfair against your tactic as tactical familiarity is around 50% percent for the team, even though Rennes lost this is impressive.

• Low xG for the opponent
• Very high possession away to a good team
• Lots of passes in the final third and progressive passes as well
• Low OPPDA for Rennes

[Diverisma158]

Hi@cmonreds! I've actually been following your training methods and such, but I can't seem to get the tactics to work. It is true that I have possession in the vast majority of games but the results are lousy. I first tried it with Atletico Madrid and they fired me in the middle of the season when I was 10th. I thought that the players might not adapt to a possession tactic because of their qualities, so I went to Sevilla. I'm currently at Sevilla and I haven't improved my results. I have lost 3 games, drawn 3 and won 1. What could I be doing wrong? Thank you!

[cmonreds]

1 hour ago, Diverisma158 said:

Hi@cmonreds! I've actually been following your training methods and such, but I can't seem to get the tactics to work. It is true that I have possession in the vast majority of games but the results are lousy. I first tried it with Atletico Madrid and they fired me in the middle of the season when I was 10th. I thought that the players might not adapt to a possession tactic because of their qualities, so I went to Sevilla. I'm currently at Sevilla and I haven't improved my results. I have lost 3 games, drawn 3 and won 1. What could I be doing wrong? Thank you!

It is hard to say, but since both save games were/are early in the season team cohesion/tactical familiarity might influence the results. Improving this rapidly is focus in the training schedules for a reason, first half of the first season I have also suffered from lousy results, but it has picked up as the season unfolds. Never getting sacked though... I don't know the players at the mentioned clubs very well, but they should be up to playing this way, have you compared the technical / mental stats of your club against the league average?

[rodau]

2 horas atrás, Diverisma158 disse:

What could I be doing wrong

It's not you fault. As I've said, the ME is more friendly to long balls behind the defence for goals, what possession tactics don't plan to do.
To work the ball to box is hard and the chances aren't clear, so you got have draws and stupid defeats.

[cmonreds]

Update

Currently working on 2-3 versions of a tiki taka tactic. Keeping team fluidity at fluid and making a version with attacking mentality and 1-2 with positive mentality. Tactical work has mostly been concentrated on positioning and when in possession. This is what I want to acchieve in regard to positioning in possession:

This is done with this tactic, added PI's are mainly positional with roaming (DLF, both CM's) and stay wider, as well as shoot less for all players. Possession at 84 % is acchieved in a home game in the league against mediocre opposition. Comment: Attacking width is standard but increasing to wide is considered. Needs more testing before final decision is made.

In the first phase after positional rotation is done the teams shape is similiar to a 3-4-3 where the four midfield positions (LIB, DM, CM's) form a line. In the later phases the shape is a box where the CM's are staying wider than the LIB and DM. The two images below shows this:

During testing and tweaking of tactic I have used the match analytics a lot. This is quite helpful for validating/correcting my assumptions of how the tactic is working. In regard to desired positioning in possession (first image) match analytics shows the following:

Average positions in possession - looking for similar patterns as the first image, shown positions is the average positions for all phases of possessional play, also possession in own half and early build-ups so the overall average will be slightly skewed. 

Possession percentage can influence the average positioning in the match analytics, the lower the percentage the more divergence there can be between the intentional shape in the opposition half and average positions shown.

Passing map gives further indication showing the average position on pitch when passing the ball. Here you also want to see fluid passing patterns utilizing all triangles/diamonds formed during in possession.

Below is a link to the tactic, bear in mind that this is work in progress. Still, the tactic should be a good starting point for a tiki taka tactic if anyone wants to use it. The mentality is attacking and your opponents and venue (home/away) should be considered before using it.

Dominate.fmf

Edited November 11, 2023 by cmonreds

[joandrle]

What tactic do you recommend for barcelona, please??

[cmonreds]

2 hours ago, joandrle said:

What tactic do you recommend for barcelona, please??

I would recommend to have a set of versions of the same tactic for different scenarios. In example playing as Barca against a weaker opponent likely to sit back and protect you use a version of your tactic aiming to dominate the match and creating chances. A different scenario is playing away against Real, Man City, Liverpool and so on, here you should use a version of the tactic aiming to counter and prevent goals against without comprimising your overall tactical style. A third version should be in the middle between those two other versions of the tactic.

I am currently trying to figure out to do this with the same roles and fluidity for all three versions of the tactic, as well as achieving intensity lower than the extremes. So far, using one with balanced mentality and counter, positive mentality, and attacking mentality. 

For you and your team you should try to figure out yourself a template of your style of play, tailor the three different versions of the tactic from that template. All the tactics I write about are from my thinking, they might not be optimal for how you want to play, not for the current ME as well. 

[joandrle]

hace 17 horas, cmonreds dijo:

I would recommend to have a set of versions of the same tactic for different scenarios. In example playing as Barca against a weaker opponent likely to sit back and protect you use a version of your tactic aiming to dominate the match and creating chances. A different scenario is playing away against Real, Man City, Liverpool and so on, here you should use a version of the tactic aiming to counter and prevent goals against without comprimising your overall tactical style. A third version should be in the middle between those two other versions of the tactic.

I am currently trying to figure out to do this with the same roles and fluidity for all three versions of the tactic, as well as achieving intensity lower than the extremes. So far, using one with balanced mentality and counter, positive mentality, and attacking mentality. 

For you and your team you should try to figure out yourself a template of your style of play, tailor the three different versions of the tactic from that template. All the tactics I write about are from my thinking, they might not be optimal for how you want to play, not for the current ME as well. 

I understand, thank you very much for the clarification.

[fumaca09]

Which one for Newcastle ?

[cmonreds]

6 hours ago, fumaca09 said:

Which one for Newcastle ?

See my previous answer to joandrle regarding a set of tactics based on the same tactical style to use in different match scenarios/in-match scenarios.

Regarding 3-2, 2-3 or 2-2 shape at the back. There are a lot of roles that can gives this and positional rotation. Even though my tactic uses certain roles the players in your squad might be better suited to using other roles. IFB, IWB (support), HB, LIB (support) have all been tested and are inviting/tempting to use. If you test one of my tactics and your players are better suited to other roles, you should change the roles and still try to acchieve the overall set-up of the shape at the back (3-2, 2-3, 2-2).

Regarding the match/in-match scenarios an "easy" home match can serve as an example:

Starting with the version of the tactic on attacking mentality to dominate and create chances. Image below show how the rigth IFB (Assignon) contributes with traditional fullback play on the right flank, the left IFB stays back and the DM -defend duty (Santamaria) also pushes up. Using the HB role for the defensive midfielder would have kept to players staying back.

Attacking width is narrow so the DM(defend) and the two Libero's (support) pack the middle of the pitch, this leaves space for the CM's staying wider (more like channel movement) and the IF's out wide. Ideally diagonal/vertical passes shuld be enabled when they receive the ball.

Watch the match on minimum extended highlights, this tactical version are vulnerable to counter attacks, so when the below incident occurs I consider changing to a more conservative version of the tactic.

[cmonreds]

If your team does not have the IFB's with pace and defensive positioning attributes to play this way you will punished for it. Had this been PSG with Mbappe playing this way would most likely lead to hockey scores against your team. In this match we were okay and nothing came out of the counter.

This happened in the 38th minute and up 2-0, so I decide to switch to the version of the tactic with positive mentality to further control the match by more considerate passing.

[cmonreds]

At the 63rd minute possession is starting to decrease and they had one big opportunity, establishing attacks in our half. The end result of this attack was a shot on goal, shots (on target) 2 (1) and xG of 0.63. Switch to tactic version with balanced mentality and counter for offensive transitions.

Maybe not the best example, counter attacks were unsuccesful but for their next six chances created their xG was 0.44. No big chances created against but we were to passive.

[Mik_Fe]

tiki taka style with higher tempo? 

I mean.. it can be work in FM, but in real life, tiki taka is very slowly in possession phase..

Edited November 20, 2023 by Mik_Fe

[cmonreds]

7 hours ago, Mik_Fe said:

tiki taka style with higher tempo? 

I mean.. it can be work in FM, but in real life, tiki taka is very slowly in possession phase..

Maybe, tiki taka is a term often referred to. It is Guardiola's tactics that interests me and he has expressed his opinion on tiki taka. Guardiola is all about is quick passing even though the build-up can be slow, if there is an opportunity to counter/attack fast it will be taken. No contradictions in my books and I would describe it as careful/cautious build-up with quick passing, especially when pressured. In FM the positioning of players and passing options together with TI's and PI's can lead to high tempo tiki taka(ish)/possession based style of play, with the same careful/cautious build-ups.

Rather than tempo as the describing factor for such styles of play are collective pressing, players positioned in close proximity of each other which enables positional/numerical advantages for quick and short passing, as well as quick transitions (close proximity for both pressing and attacking). In FM24 this can be translated to fluid/very fluid team fluidity, narrow attacking width and trap outside (narrow width in defense as well). As well as some artistry as seen in video below 

 

The tactic below by far is closest to acchieving collective pressing and in possession play I want to see in my tactic (so far only change is to switch between balanced, positive, attacking mentality depending on opponent/match scenario):

TeamWorkRate_Balanced.fmf 

Since the beta I haven't really played the game as a normal save game, most of the time with FM24 has been about tactics and finding a satisfying and solid tactic to use in a long term save game. This is done by holiday mode between matches and training/squad management is not fully taken care of. This tactic is looking promising. Beating PSG away in the league in the first season is kind of an acid test when testing tactics with Rennes. This tactic acchieved that.

I believe that fluid/very fluid tactics which is all about teamwork/collectiveness is especially dependant on team cohesion and relations between the players (arrows on tactics screen), in the winter of 24 just one arrow is formed and team cohesion is only at a good level.

[Mik_Fe]

ok ok.. I understand what you mean! I also have a tactic that I have been using for years in FM and which I modify in small details year after edition..
I'm a fan of Pep and I've been following your thread a lot..
The only thing I wonder, and which is explained little, is what the individual players should do, in terms of individual instructions..
I'll only find out if I download the tactic, but first I'd like to study the concept and understand what you're looking for, so we can all discuss it together..
One question, has such a symmetrical tactic (I really like symmetrical ones) ever been tried with a complete forward in support?

[cmonreds]

24 minutes ago, Mik_Fe said:

ok ok.. I understand what you mean! I also have a tactic that I have been using for years in FM and which I modify in small details year after edition..

Me as well. The last tactic is developed from the tactic used for FM22/23. I tried all the new roles/positional rotation roles, tried the 2-3 and 3-2 rest defence (termed this by a user in this forum), really liked and enjoyed playing with them. Still, I am grounded in the 4-3-3/3-4-3 tradition and really like the balance it gives, the tactical principles are still the same if you use a 3-4-3 or 3-2-5 just different positions maintaining the different principles. To use a positional rotational role there must be a valid reason, in example at City Stones has great ability to pass the ball, this can/should be utilized to benefit the team by him acting in the role described in FM24 as libero. At the current Rennes squad their abilities is best utilized with a more traditional approach, by wide defenders maintaining width.

37 minutes ago, Mik_Fe said:

I'm a fan of Pep 

Might be obvious, but me as well.

39 minutes ago, Mik_Fe said:

The only thing I wonder, and which is explained little, is what the individual players should do, in terms of individual instructions..

In a modern 3-2-5 / 2-3-5 the wingers/wide attackers maintain width, in this tactic the CWB do this. Modern tactic has Mezzala's challenges the half-space, in this tactic the IW's does this. Instead of 3-2 or 2-3 rest defence this tactic uses 2-1-2 (in between those), where the CM's are part of the rest defence and providing a good balance in the tactic. They will as the libero or IW's surge forward on occasions.

• First of all there is a lot of roaming (DLF/IW's/CM's/CWB's)
• Shorter passing for all players (This futhers decreases passing length from the TI much shorter passing)
• Shoot less often for all players
• CD's stay wider (enables them to a higher degree as passing outlets for forward players being pressured)
• CWB's stay wider/run wide with ball (main width holders in the tactic / stretch the opponent when running wide with the ball)
• DM holds position to be more conservative in his positioning (defend duty is possible)
• IW's gets further forward/sits narrower
• The front three eases of tackles, as they most likely will not have good tackling ability and to avoid injuries.

42 minutes ago, Mik_Fe said:

I'll only find out if I download the tactic, but first I'd like to study the concept and understand what you're looking for, so we can all discuss it together..

Sure, that would be interesting, I am eager to hear your perspectives, best way to learn and get new ideas  The tactic for sure has room for improvement/tweaks.

44 minutes ago, Mik_Fe said:

One question, has such a symmetrical tactic (I really like symmetrical ones) ever been tried with a complete forward in support?

This tactic was tested with both DLF and CF on support, both works very well and it is not carved in stone that the DLF is the optimal solution. Needs to play for a couple of seasons to give the verdict if one is better than the other.

[cmonreds]

A little update 1,5 season into a long term save game.

First season not very spectacular, untill late February/early March Rennes were at the same amount of points as PSG. Maybe due to taking more risk in matches to keep pace with PSG suddenly things went worse. A streak of losses and draws led to PSG pulling away and other teams bypassing Rennes in the table. Knocked out of the EURO conference and national cup as well. Finished 4th and possession at 60% and shared 1st place in the Ligue 1.

Team cohesion reached good understanding and in fairness the squad is young and not able to compete at the highest level, atleast not in three competitions. Matic sold in January and Lafont (SK) brought in during November.

The U19 team won the national championship:

Season 2024-25: Brought in Roauld (CD), Kral (DM) and Kilicsoy (IW), the last two on free transfer. The youngsters have developed further and the squad looks much stronger. Team cohesion has increased:

The aim is to win the league and that has priority, this leads to the best eleven is used in league matches and the 2nd best eleven used for Champions League. The aim is to reach the knock out rounds of the CL. Fixture list so far:

League table:

League stats:

CL:

CL stats:

So far in the 2024-25 season balanced mentality (counter) version has been used a lot and positive version in home matches expected to win. The attacking mentality version have been used when a goal is needed and it has worked well. For the last period of matches this is changing as opponents are being more defensive and the positive version is also used in away matches, as well as attacking version in home matches.

The mantra is still to reduce risk and continue to safeguarding wins/points during matches. The tactic is working very well and the pressing efficiency is very good. Offensively the passing and teamplay is also very good. A small change has been made for season 2024-25. Removed TI get stuck in and ease of tackles for the front three. Balanced version has counter as TI as well.

Tactics:

TeamWorkRate_Balanced.fmfTeamWorkRate_Positive.fmfTeamWorkRate_Attacking.fmf

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by cmonreds

[cmonreds]

Quick update:

24-25: PSG won the cup and the CL this season. Rennes knocked out of the CL in the knock out playoff round (after league phase) and the 11th round of the cup. Possession at 62%.

25-26: Knocked out of the CL in the knock out playoff round (after league phase) and the quarter final of the cup. Possession at 63%.

26-27: Champions league and the french cup has priority...

[CJ FM]

On 23/11/2023 at 14:26, cmonreds said:

A little update 1,5 season into a long term save game.

First season not very spectacular, untill late February/early March Rennes were at the same amount of points as PSG. Maybe due to taking more risk in matches to keep pace with PSG suddenly things went worse. A streak of losses and draws led to PSG pulling away and other teams bypassing Rennes in the table. Knocked out of the EURO conference and national cup as well. Finished 4th and possession at 60% and shared 1st place in the Ligue 1.

Team cohesion reached good understanding and in fairness the squad is young and not able to compete at the highest level, atleast not in three competitions. Matic sold in January and Lafont (SK) brought in during November.

The U19 team won the national championship:

Season 2024-25: Brought in Roauld (CD), Kral (DM) and Kilicsoy (IW), the last two on free transfer. The youngsters have developed further and the squad looks much stronger. Team cohesion has increased:

The aim is to win the league and that has priority, this leads to the best eleven is used in league matches and the 2nd best eleven used for Champions League. The aim is to reach the knock out rounds of the CL. Fixture list so far:

League table:

League stats:

CL:

CL stats:

So far in the 2024-25 season balanced mentality (counter) version has been used a lot and positive version in home matches expected to win. The attacking mentality version have been used when a goal is needed and it has worked well. For the last period of matches this is changing as opponents are being more defensive and the positive version is also used in away matches, as well as attacking version in home matches.

The mantra is still to reduce risk and continue to safeguarding wins/points during matches. The tactic is working very well and the pressing efficiency is very good. Offensively the passing and teamplay is also very good. A small change has been made for season 2024-25. Removed TI get stuck in and ease of tackles for the front three. Balanced version has counter as TI as well.

Tactics:

TeamWorkRate_Balanced.fmf 42.48 kB · 33 downloads TeamWorkRate_Positive.fmf 42.48 kB · 30 downloads TeamWorkRate_Attacking.fmf 42.48 kB · 26 downloads

 

do you use any Opposition Instructions

[cmonreds]

1 hour ago, CJ FM said:

do you use any Opposition Instructions

Currently not using any OI's. Sensible use would probably strengthen performance. My impression is that OI's has the best effect against stronger teams if they are well applied.

There is a probability that performances with this tactic can be related to training, mine are focused on match preparation sessions, this can have an effect.

[coach vahid]

I use your last setup in a save on fm 22. Just changing the CWB(s) for WB(s) because the CWB have most of the times poor ratings.

And slightly higher tempo because much higher tempo is a little " too much".

First part of the season :

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by coach vahid

[cmonreds]

43 minutes ago, coach vahid said:

I use your last setup in a save on fm 22. Just changing the CWB(s) for WB(s) because the CWB have most of the times poor ratings.

And slightly higher tempo because much higher tempo is a little " too much".

Hi coach vahid,

Glad to see it working for you. That is an impressive performance with EA Guingamp. With intense/high press very fluid tactics can be defensively solid. I am curious about what are the team cohesion level for your team ?

[coach vahid]

[cmonreds]

4 hours ago, coach vahid said:

Thanks,

do you have any thoughts on using OI's and how that possibly could strengthen the tactic? Different match scenarios etc. I haven't come there yet that I have any clear ideas. Use the PSG match as an example, is there anything OI's could have done to strengthen your chances.

[Rikdancer]

1 hour ago, cmonreds said:

Thanks,

do you have any thoughts on using OI's and how that possibly could strengthen the tactic? Different match scenarios etc. I haven't come there yet that I have any clear ideas. Use the PSG match as an example, is there anything OI's could have done to strengthen your chances.

Theres a bug where you can close down more often and tweak the roles that shouldnt be able to, dont report this to the bug section pls. Put your line of engagement low, go to players instructions and you can set the bar on press more often, put line of engagement back to high and it will stay there. Makes my DF play a bit like a pressing forwards which helps for pressing and winning back possession.

[coach vahid]

Sorry but i have no idea.