If the aim is to go toward more realism and immersion, SI should completely change the way attributes are revealed and displayed

[dieguitoch]

Hello !

It seems that, nowadays, more and more people play FM without attributes to have a more realistic experience as, as everyone knows, IRL, there are no such things as 1 to 20 notations on every attributes of players. "No attributes skins" seem to be very popular. You can also see more and more Youtuber doing "Moneyball saves".

I understand that, with the lack of other information/stats, SI had to do this way in the beginning but I also think it's time for SI to do something for all those FM lovers who want a more realistic/immersive experience, now that a lot of datas are coming to the game.

Myself, I've tried some skins but, recently, I found one that completely changed the way the game feels, the STATMAN skin. The big difference and genius of this one is that it simply shows attributes the way they should, the way your assistant/scouts would give the infos to you: with words ! No more "positioning = 13", here, instead, we learn that the player "reads defensive situations well", for example...

For my immersion, it changes everything !... I can imagine having a real interaction with my assistants/scouts !... I want them to tell me what are the pros and cons of a player and leave me some datas to check out. I don't work in a football club but I can imagine that's how it goes IRL.

All of this, also made me think about how attributes should be revealed to have something more realistic. And the answer to that would be: datas, observation and training sessions. There's no way a scout can guess that a player has "18 in passing and vision" if he's seen him three times and he played poorly and created no chances and missed 30% of his passes !... The scout reports should be based on datas they collected and their "feelings", they should not be able to guess with exactitude players aptitudes... how would they do that ?

For the players in your team, you could have more precise infos because you see them every day/week in training. But, here also, you couldn't have an exact number because sometimes players perform like they have six in all attributes and sometimes they feel like gods. How would someone know that they are "15" ? There are attributes, mostly physical (pace, jumping, etc.) that could be measurable during physical tests. You could set those tests during the training week and it would give you numbers representing the physical condition of a player at a point in time because, naturally, it should fluctuate depending on players form (which should fluctuate but that's another debate) !... So, depending on the exercices we set during the week and the datas from previous games, we could have a picture of our players abilities. If you do passing exercices, it would give you more precise information on the level in passing of your players, etc. Training should give indications on actual players capacities and form. Those infos should help the coach when choosing players for the match as I think it's the case IRL. We often hear coaches saying "You only perform on match day the way you trained during the week !"

Naturally, attributes should still exist but in the background. They are there to make the engine do the calculation during the match but we should only see the results of those calculations and try to figure it out.

It's time for SI to have more consideration for all those FM gamers who want a different approach of their beloved game. If you really want to go toward realism, I think it's time to reconsider how attributes are used in this game and take inspiration from all the great skin maker that allow players who want a more immersive experience to enjoy the game like it could/should be.

Thanks for the (long) reading and I'm very interested in you opinions...

 

N.B.: Note that the "Statman skin" is in English only so, please, don't ask to translate it in another language, just thank the creator for his amazing work !... And, people from SI, take a look at it, please... it's very inspiring and elevate your game to a new level !...

 

 

[Dagenham_Dave]

I can't see SI going down this road anytime soon. There's good ideas in there, but I'd imagine the vast majority of the customer base still relies on player attributes. Perhaps have a setting to remove them visually rather than relying on a 3rd party skin could be the answer. But I can't see attributes vanishing for good. 

[Johnny Ace]

This isn't for me nor the millions of other players that don't use attributeless skins. Attributes are big part of FM and have been for 30 years or so now, so I can't see it changing to suit a minority  

[enigmatic]

The statman skin is full of good ideas that could be copied as view options, but FM's entire identity is "that game where every player gets rated from 1-20 in lots of areas...

[Mst82]

But they do have it in real life, as many professional clubs use the FM database 🤣🤣

[Furmanbp]

I am super happy with statistics as they are now, I do not really care for super realism, as long as game is pleasure to play. I would even argue that SI should be more transparent on mechanism of game rather than keeping so many things obscure, and that would mean even less realistic that real life. I think a lot of people fall into "realism" trap rather than enjoy the game. You said it yourself mate, you got skin that do everything you want so just use it, problem sorted. 

[Iggy Hassan]

I totally get what you are saying and agree with some of it. However, we do need a yardstick to measure up players quality against anothers and the attribute scoring system works perfectly well imo. Clubs more than ever value data & stats when it comes to buying players, so it's not beyond the realms of impossibility that some sort of scoring system exists rather than a scout saying, "He's good at tackling and a bit better than him." Otherwise, what's the point of paying a scout thousands of pounds a week at a top club? 

[busngabb]

The problem with this is that you simply cannot see training AT ALL and you cannot see enough in matches to be able to make a judgement on players yourself if the attributes were not there. You'd have to base signings on the players statistics, goals scored, assists etc and the scouting overall judgement/data analyst stats etc. It would possibly make it more realistic, but you can't just watch 30 hours of HD footage of the players on the game to be able to differentiate between them well enough. How would you differentiate between a player who was a 130 CA from a 150? How would you differentiate a 130 PA prospect from a 180? In real life, they're not using data to decide solely, they're watching games and getting a feel for players.

In order to improve the immersion and make it more realistic, they simply HAVE to bring difficulty levels into the game. I think the tactical side of the game is fine personally. It's challenging, but there is some feedback at least. This needs to be improved if they ever make the tactical side more dificult, but it's passable as is.

What ruins Football Manager in terms of realism is the squad building element. It's simply too easy to sign players. You can sign 30+ world class prospects in two seasons easily, or scale that down to players one or two levels above you in lower reputation leagues. Sure you can self-police it by choosing a team with no resources at all, but even then you can just abuse the loan system. The board don't mind your obsession with wonderkids or question how you know a player you haven't even scouted is the second best player on the game etc. It'll let you sign them. So if you choose a Championship or Premier League team in England you can build an unstoppable team within three years and simply overpower the tactical side of the game completely. I think there needs to be a 'default' mode, which is the game as it is. Then a 'challenging/realism' mode where transfers have more grounding in reality. For example, Everton are not going to sign Endrick, Moukoko, Schelderup, Scott, Mannswerk, Scalvini, Broja and Fresneda in one season. But you can on the game, even with how broken selling players has become. Each of those signings probably isn't that unrealistic individually, but they'd have to put a lot of ground work into them. None of them would be a quick, bid and sign process. It'd be drawn out, the players would want to see if there was other interest etc. And one or two signings would be it for Everton, the financial position just isn't accurately reflected on the game at all. Your reputation as a manger in the game should also affect transfers. For example, if you come up with a recruitment plan that the club signs off, you shouldn't be able to deviate from it significantly as a rookie manager. In real life clubs would identify the positions they need, the status of those players (First team starters, squad options, young prospects to develop etc) and then they'd work on identifying targets. They aren't just slapping in five bids for random wonderkids no one has heard of. Most transfers of elite level players should take 6 months of negotitations too if you want realism. I'm sure some would, but the majority certainly wouldn't, hence the need to choose.

I find Football Manager challenging first season on a new version as I struggle with the new tactical tweeks. Once I've figured that out, I really enjoy the first two or three years, but then it just reaches a point usually in season 3 where there isn't a single player or staff member left from the original team and I'm winning the League and have 30 future superstars ready to bring through and it gets a bit boring. Of course I could choose to not do that, but why would you if the game allows it? Why would I sit and struggle to make it more realistic? There's a massive degree of role playing to that and as a guy in my 40s that feels a little silly.

[wazzaflow10]

On 11/08/2023 at 04:42, Johnny Ace said:

This isn't for me nor the millions of other players that don't use attributeless skins. Attributes are big part of FM and have been for 30 years or so now, so I can't see it changing to suit a minority  

Agreed but I think there could be some middle ground of "imprecise" attributes. They'd still be represented as a single number but that number would be based on knowledge of player, scout's/coach's JPA, form, etc. Similar to OOTP's system if you're familiar. It'd be a tick-able option at game start like fog of war for those that want the classic version.

I find the easy thing in this game is knowing who's over/underperforming because you see their exact attributes. It makes it easy to sell and replace a player that's been getting 8's and 9's but is probably an average to below average player attribute-wise. If that player's attributes started to reflect that they were performing at such a high level it wouldn't be so easy to sell them and find a known upgrade. Is the player you're buying in top form? Did your scouts only see them on days they played well and thus have an inflated opinion of them? Or maybe your scouts saw a player on a few bad days at the office and you start questioning if this player is really the replacement you want.

Spoiler

As a side benefit it'd probably stop the whining regarding dynamic PA since it'd appear like your players are 'getting better' but in reality its just your coaches thinking they're better than their actual CA/PA allows under the hood. It would also tie in better with the star ratings or coach opinions as players go from decent league player to good league player etc. I find that to be disjointed. Their Attributes haven't changed but you're telling me they're now a world class midfielder when 30 days ago you thought they were only a good PL player? 

It'd take some balance so that it doesn't become a mad rush to snap up all the 20/20 scouts, so I don't expect something like this to be implemented soon.