How to soak up pressure and hit a team on the counter as an underdog? [UPDATED for FM24]

[Counter9]

7 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

I avoid regroup because it invites more pressure, leaving it blank is a good option. Once you've won the ball back, you want players in position to counter and w/ regroup that isn't always the case (it also affects your striker who you want putting pressure on their backline). You could experiment with it in your system and see if it helps to balance out some of the roles you've picked, but personally I'd avoid it in a counter attack system.

• Narrowing the width is a good alternative if you're looking to be more defensively compact.

On defensive lines:

• Standard is usually a good starting point. A low line again invites pressure and a high line can do cool things w/pressing, but you need quick high quality CBs.
• The CWB look key to your tactic working or not, so I would recommend a high line if you've got the players to pull it off. 

I've played 10 match 5 with Regroup and 5 without. When I played with Regroup the opposition team had more Highlights compared to when I've not used it. So decided not to use Regroup anymore.

In case of CWB I actually have the "Dimond" players that you've described earlier. They both have Aggression, Concentration, Decision, Teamwork, Work rate and Stamina averaging 13 or more. Last season they were my most assist providers. I use CWB because when sometimes there is no space infront of them to run the cut insides, that's what I like about the most about the CWB role rather than traditional WB's. I also use Mark tighter instruction on them. 

[Cloud9]

9 hours ago, Counter9 said:

I've played 10 match 5 with Regroup and 5 without. When I played with Regroup the opposition team had more Highlights compared to when I've not used it. So decided not to use Regroup anymore.

In case of CWB I actually have the "Dimond" players that you've described earlier. They both have Aggression, Concentration, Decision, Teamwork, Work rate and Stamina averaging 13 or more. Last season they were my most assist providers. I use CWB because when sometimes there is no space infront of them to run the cut insides, that's what I like about the most about the CWB role rather than traditional WB's. I also use Mark tighter instruction on them. 

Great that you're getting the CWB to work  Like the idea of them coming in to play through the middle. You could try to focus play through the middle w/ them in several periods of the match, that can be quite a strong tool with the box midfield anyways. 

• I mention the CWB being pivotal to the setup since you have the WCB on defend to cover for them (WCB are pretty static, where as the BPD w/dribble more or WCB(s) progress the ball themselves). 
  • Higher defensive line puts them a bit closer to the opposition goal, where they can get involved more often. 
• I've struggled to get back 3 systems to work w/out those two wide players capable of breaking the lines but if the CWB are filling that niche it might be fine. I'd just watch how it plays in game. 

On the box 4: 

• Sounds like the 4 is working very well together  
• I'd keep an eye out for the Enganche role.They tend to be pretty static which can be tricky in a counter attack. AP(s) can be a nice alternative if you want a playmaker in that AM strata, and will do a bit more hardwork off the ball. 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Cloud9

[luke.keattch]

Hi there,

I've been lurking on this thread for ages and started a save. The second year with Watford, after promotion, i'm rock bottom!

Ive tried several variations, including 2 DMS (Vol (S) and DLP (S) and (D).

I have tried the wide midfielders in the AML and AMR positions on support and attack duties, but can't get this working.

The forward I have had on AF (A) for most of the journey and recently changed him to DLF (S) to try and get him more involved as he was very isolated.

 

All outfield players have 12 in the following: 

Anticipation, Aggression, Concentration, Stamina, Strength, Work Rate

Help please!

 

The current tactic:

[Cloud9]

3 hours ago, luke.keattch said:

Hi there,

I've been lurking on this thread for ages and started a save. The second year with Watford, after promotion, i'm rock bottom!

Ive tried several variations, including 2 DMS (Vol (S) and DLP (S) and (D).

I have tried the wide midfielders in the AML and AMR positions on support and attack duties, but can't get this working.

The forward I have had on AF (A) for most of the journey and recently changed him to DLF (S) to try and get him more involved as he was very isolated.

 

All outfield players have 12 in the following: 

Anticipation, Aggression, Concentration, Stamina, Strength, Work Rate

Help please!

 

The current tactic:

Looks like there's not enough pressure being put back on the opposition at the moment. 

I would recommend changing formation:

• A 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-1-2 will let you keep Asprilla in the AMC hole, which I fully support. He's two footed and a real gem of a player. 
  • A 4-3-1-2 is what I would do tactically, it gives you a really strong defensive shape and a striker combo is always good when you're a big underdog. 
  • However: if you've got Joao Pedro and Sarr in the squad still, a 4-2-3-1 will let you field your best players at the same time which I would prioritize. Sarr has tremendous pace for a counter attack which should not be overlooked. As a very general rule, players you put on attack are the ones you're asking to surge forward to counter when the ball is one back (W(a) AF(a) etc). That can help you see how much of a threat you are to the opposition on the break. 
    • Both formations will address the issue of your striker getting overly isolated. 
  • Watford have a number of technically talented players capable of playing less conservatively, you could also go with a positive counter (up to you, both can work). 
  • Whatever formation you switch to, just remember that you MUST put pressure/goal threat back on the opposition at all times (ideally from multiple players). If your tactic doesn't have that, you're sunk w/ a counter attack approach. 
• Switch back to the AF 100%, a DLF isn't great in a midblock and you need the AF to be pushing against the opposition CBs. Can't emphasis this enough. 
  • I like to make sure the forward doesn't match the role of the AMC, so if you go for an AF(a) I would recommend an AMC(s). Ignore this if you go for a striker combo. 
• Drop the CWB(a) for a WB(s), CWB(a) is super aggressive and leaves you playing with a back 3 essentially. 
• At the moment neither WM is going forward. If you do keep your current shape, you'll need one of them as a winger(a) I think. 
• Bin "get stuck in," especially while things are difficult for the squad. 

Ultimately Watford have real quality in the squad so trust in the boys and focus in keeping their morale up primarily. If you're bottom of the table it's going to be a bit of a grind, just take it one game at a time and don't go too defensive

Edited July 10, 2023 by Cloud9

[toshimitzou1]

7 hours ago, luke.keattch said:

Hi there,

I've been lurking on this thread for ages and started a save. The second year with Watford, after promotion, i'm rock bottom!

Ive tried several variations, including 2 DMS (Vol (S) and DLP (S) and (D).

I have tried the wide midfielders in the AML and AMR positions on support and attack duties, but can't get this working.

The forward I have had on AF (A) for most of the journey and recently changed him to DLF (S) to try and get him more involved as he was very isolated.

 

All outfield players have 12 in the following: 

Anticipation, Aggression, Concentration, Stamina, Strength, Work Rate

Help please!

 

The current tactic:

If you want to keep the attacking threat of Moufi you could give this a spin:

o

Nothing too fancy but should keep things tight at the back. 

I like the idea of keeping the WB on attack as it offers an extra option if the initial counter-attack fails. As @Cloud9 said, ' do not underestimate the value of Pace ' in counter - attacking play.  It would also be useful if the player you place RDM had some passing skill/ traits as he will see most of the ball in deeper areas. 

Because the AF and IF will often be attacking the same space, you will find the RWB has a lot of space for accurate crosses which you can amplify by instructing the IF to sit narrower. 

Good luck!

 

[Lasson]

11 hours ago, toshimitzou1 said:

You could even go with a FBs on the left for even more defensive stability.

[toshimitzou1]

1 minute ago, Lasson said:

You could even go with a FBs on the left for even more defensive stability.

Totally. Although with two DM's and a relatively low mentality I think the WB can help stretch the opposition, creating space for the Winger.

[Cloud9]

1 hour ago, Lasson said:

You could even go with a FBs on the left for even more defensive stability.

Agree with this if you go with the WB(a). They'll try to run to the byline which can be difficult if they're not superb athletes, providing some extra cover for him could be nice in a relegation fight. 

1 hour ago, toshimitzou1 said:

Totally. Although with two DM's and a relatively low mentality I think the WB can help stretch the opposition, creating space for the Winger.

Like the setup you've put together here   I think if you want two wingbacks I'd just stick them both on support, they'll still provide real attacking threats to the side. 

Edited July 11, 2023 by Cloud9

[luke.keattch]

Thank you so much!

23 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Looks like there's not enough pressure being put back on the opposition at the moment. 

I would recommend changing formation:

• A 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-1-2 will let you keep Asprilla in the AMC hole, which I fully support. He's two footed and a real gem of a player. 
  • A 4-3-1-2 is what I would do tactically, it gives you a really strong defensive shape and a striker combo is always good when you're a big underdog. 
  • However: if you've got Joao Pedro and Sarr in the squad still, a 4-2-3-1 will let you field your best players at the same time which I would prioritize. Sarr has tremendous pace for a counter attack which should not be overlooked. As a very general rule, players you put on attack are the ones you're asking to surge forward to counter when the ball is one back (W(a) AF(a) etc). That can help you see how much of a threat you are to the opposition on the break. 
    • Both formations will address the issue of your striker getting overly isolated. 
  • Watford have a number of technically talented players capable of playing less conservatively, you could also go with a positive counter (up to you, both can work). 
  • Whatever formation you switch to, just remember that you MUST put pressure/goal threat back on the opposition at all times (ideally from multiple players). If your tactic doesn't have that, you're sunk w/ a counter attack approach. 
• Switch back to the AF 100%, a DLF isn't great in a midblock and you need the AF to be pushing against the opposition CBs. Can't emphasis this enough. 
  • I like to make sure the forward doesn't match the role of the AMC, so if you go for an AF(a) I would recommend an AMC(s). Ignore this if you go for a striker combo. 
• Drop the CWB(a) for a WB(s), CWB(a) is super aggressive and leaves you playing with a back 3 essentially. 
• At the moment neither WM is going forward. If you do keep your current shape, you'll need one of them as a winger(a) I think. 
• Bin "get stuck in," especially while things are difficult for the squad. 

Ultimately Watford have real quality in the squad so trust in the boys and focus in keeping their morale up primarily. If you're bottom of the table it's going to be a bit of a grind, just take it one game at a time and don't go too defensive

 

[toshimitzou1]

9 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Agree with this if you go with the WB(a). They'll try to run to the byline which can be difficult if they're not superb athletes, providing some extra cover for him could be nice in a relegation fight. 

Like the setup you've put together here   I think if you want two wingbacks I'd just stick them both on support, they'll still provide real attacking threats to the side. 

I think this is the way forwards. Want a WB - Attack in  a weaker team? Then offer a safer FB-Support on the other side. As your results and team improve you can get more adventurous.

If you do opt for both supporting WB's, I'd be inclined to run both DM's on support with one set to 'hold position'. 

[toshimitzou1]

Hi all. 

I'm still in the middle of my journeyman save and have now achieved further Domestic and European success with Holsten Kiel. I have been fully utilising the counter - attack style of play to great effect. Here is plan A, which has won me my most recent successes:

In big fixtures against elite opposition this had been an epic success this season.

However, against smaller opposition I have had to employ a plan B as after watching in-game early in the season, they were just not attacking and merely pinging the ball between their CB's and DM's. As such, In the majority of League fixtures I deployed this variant until I had taken a lead before reverting to type:

As can be seen, Pass into Space has been removed, with the addition of more creative instructions and we are far more eager to press what had proved to be sterile opposition. In addition, extremely direct passing helped us immediately exploit any mistakes from our opponents. With these adjustments, the league was a cakewalk, seen here in my second -half of season results:

It is worth noting the only fixtures where I started a match with plan A was against FC Bayern, B Dortmund and RB Liepzig (both home and away) as these are now the only teams that show any inclination to attack.

As you can see, a top quality AF really helps:

Now, as this is a journeyman save, I was thinking of upping sticks and head over to South America to test out the counter-attack style of play. However, I have instead decided to stay at Holsten Kiel a season or two more and try and impose a 'front foot' counter attack style that will maintain the 'defensive' mentality I have grown to enjoy and admire whilst seeking to instigate the counter higher up the pitch. With less space in-behind, this will rely on player movements off-the-ball into much smaller spaces and as such, I will be looking to incorporate a few roles that can 'find' players in these spaces.

This what I have been testing in a pilot save and is looking promising for the upcoming season (please note, my players are top quality now and as such I am being far more liberal with roles than I would be as an underdog):

From what I have seen in -game testing, the Libero really thrives with a lower risk mentality because the players around him are less inclined to look for adventurous passes themselves. I'm sticking with the PF-D and AF combo as it has really proved a boon and I am deploying a SS to give the creative players, MezA, LibA aand Wingers, another moving target to thread in when available. Some might criticise having two BPD next to a Libero but, for me, on a defensive mentality and a defend duty, I still feel the will be cautious enough with the ball whilst still having the nous to send in the wingers down the line 'when' there is space available. 

Just gotta scout out a LIbero for the new season!

[Guest]

13 hours ago, toshimitzou1 said:

Hi all. 

I'm still in the middle of my journeyman save and have now achieved further Domestic and European success with Holsten Kiel. I have been fully utilising the counter - attack style of play to great effect. Here is plan A, which has won me my most recent successes:

In big fixtures against elite opposition this had been an epic success this season.

However, against smaller opposition I have had to employ a plan B as after watching in-game early in the season, they were just not attacking and merely pinging the ball between their CB's and DM's. As such, In the majority of League fixtures I deployed this variant until I had taken a lead before reverting to type:

As can be seen, Pass into Space has been removed, with the addition of more creative instructions and we are far more eager to press what had proved to be sterile opposition. In addition, extremely direct passing helped us immediately exploit any mistakes from our opponents. With these adjustments, the league was a cakewalk, seen here in my second -half of season results:

It is worth noting the only fixtures where I started a match with plan A was against FC Bayern, B Dortmund and RB Liepzig (both home and away) as these are now the only teams that show any inclination to attack.

As you can see, a top quality AF really helps:

Now, as this is a journeyman save, I was thinking of upping sticks and head over to South America to test out the counter-attack style of play. However, I have instead decided to stay at Holsten Kiel a season or two more and try and impose a 'front foot' counter attack style that will maintain the 'defensive' mentality I have grown to enjoy and admire whilst seeking to instigate the counter higher up the pitch. With less space in-behind, this will rely on player movements off-the-ball into much smaller spaces and as such, I will be looking to incorporate a few roles that can 'find' players in these spaces.

This what I have been testing in a pilot save and is looking promising for the upcoming season (please note, my players are top quality now and as such I am being far more liberal with roles than I would be as an underdog):

From what I have seen in -game testing, the Libero really thrives with a lower risk mentality because the players around him are less inclined to look for adventurous passes themselves. I'm sticking with the PF-D and AF combo as it has really proved a boon and I am deploying a SS to give the creative players, MezA, LibA aand Wingers, another moving target to thread in when available. Some might criticise having two BPD next to a Libero but, for me, on a defensive mentality and a defend duty, I still feel the will be cautious enough with the ball whilst still having the nous to send in the wingers down the line 'when' there is space available. 

Just gotta scout out a LIbero for the new season!

For this type of journeyman are you shaping your formations around your squad first? Or how are you settling on these formations? I've been thinking about a similar journeyman and I'd want to keep a good balance between tactical flexibility and something that "works" so to speak. Obviously the latter can take a tad more time to find the right players, so I'm just curious if you prefer one method over the other for this type of save. 

Otherwise I've been enjoying your posts and following your progress! It's absolutely my favorite way to play this game. 

[Guest]

That actually has me thinking, @Cloud9 do you think an 'extreme' version of this style could work? Meaning playing as an elite or top of the table club and baiting teams with a low block / low DL / low pressing before punishing them on the break. Or is it too difficult to get teams to attack you when they don't want to? 

Edited July 13, 2023 by Guest

[toshimitzou1]

1 hour ago, BlitzkriegBob25 said:

For this type of journeyman are you shaping your formations around your squad first?

Not in this case. I was determined to try something different so each time into a club it is a case of flushing out the dead wood and recruiting players that can play to my counter attack 'philosophy' on a defensive mentality. This is largely based on the fact I have never utilised this play style before (see earlier posts for info). It works well as a journeyman because I start out with no badges and the first few jobs you take you are more than likely to be an underdog. After success at Newcastle U (second job) I can have my pick of posts so I will always choose a struggling team (when I took over New U they were in the relegation zone at Xmas) whom would benefit from such a pragmatic approach. All of this is in regards to mentality and TI's; indeed the roles and shape can be dictated by the players available and varies from club to club. 

My only hard and fast rules are that I will pretty much always deploy an AF and a Winger - At. These two have proved extremely effective in my pllaythrough.

 

This is solely my choice on this playthrough. On others I do the aforementioned squad analysis and go from there. On a journeyman save this again, can be fun as it means you can try out different approaches based on the personnel present and the club when you arrive.

Each to their own at the end of the day. Glad you're enjoying the updates!

[bosque]

Great thread, I couldn't find this discussed but what do you do when teams play more cautious against you? I'm having this problem right now. Was enjoying success with a counter-attacking mid block but this season the system isn't working and I can see teams waiting for us to do the movement with a high line but a passive press. They give the ball to us and wait until we lose it.

[Cloud9]

5 hours ago, BlitzkriegBob25 said:

That actually has me thinking, @Cloud9 do you think an 'extreme' version of this style could work? Meaning playing as an elite or top of the table club and baiting teams with a low block / low DL / low pressing before punishing them on the break. Or is it too difficult to get teams to attack you when they don't want to? 

In cup football, yes, very workable to play a pragmatic style. Winning the league in a competitive division once you're a recogniziably big side will be difficult if you continue to only sit back.

IRL there's a lot of examples of defence first teams being victims of their own success.

• Atletico Madrid especially so. Their innovative, narrow 4-4-2 style carried them to unprecedented domestic/European success on a shoestring budget in its early years, before being adopted as a way to over perform by many of their Spanish opposition. Their success brought funds, before having almost nothing w/almost all of La Liga's revenues streamlined to the Spanish giants. Attempting to reinvent themselves they switched to a 5 at the back system for more game control and brought in technically gifted players for big cash (Joao Felix) but who ultimately didn't have the grit to fit the clubs DNA. Now Atletico are in an awkward phase of choosing to stick with Cholismo or move on to a more progressive style. 
• You'll find a similar struggle in your own saves if you recruit to transition like this. These tactics tend to not carry passengers well and the teams original strengths can fall apart quickly.
  • Moving to a less constrictive defensive setup may be necessary. More positive/less direct.
  • Either commit to becoming a progressive side or commit to playing horrible football. 

On low blocks etc.

• I would avoid these once you're a giant, consider Ole's tenure at Man United, but a midblock is workable if you want to stick to your principles. 
• It's one of the things I've really liked about the 3-4-2-1 mid-block counterattack, you're not overly reliant on just super quick players hitting the space and there's more room for technical (but still mean) footballers in the squad.

In your own saves that transition period is inevitable if you play for long enough. You'll need to bring in different style players who can break down the opposition when they're happy to play for a draw. Ultimately the manner/direction in which you choose to transition is up to you  

3 hours ago, bosque said:

Great thread, I couldn't find this discussed but what do you do when teams play more cautious against you? I'm having this problem right now. Was enjoying success with a counter-attacking mid block but this season the system isn't working and I can see teams waiting for us to do the movement with a high line but a passive press. They give the ball to us and wait until we lose it.

Yea, that's a problem. You don't have to abandon your counter attack, but you might have to start that transitional period mentioned.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Cloud9

[toshimitzou1]

OMG. I think I may have finally landed on a tactic that gets the most out of the Libero (Christ Ngombo), whilst still maintaining the principles of counter-attacking football!!! 

Have been training the tactic all pre - season,

and in our first competitive fixture (FC Bayern in the domestic Supercup) the Libero ran the show.

He got an assist for the first and and 'pre - assist' for the third!!! What's even better is that it was a manifestation of how I had intended my front foot counter attacking to function.

For the assist, My Left BPD intercepts a long ball and switches it to my Right BPD. He immediately shifts it to the Libero who lets fly a a 50 yard through ball to the onrushing Mezzala, totally unmarked to slot home.

The pre- assist is real poetry in motion. Our high pressure forces the FC Bayern RB to play long up to their ST whom is coming deep to receive a header. The Libero charges forward to win the header, covering 10 yards whilst the ball is in the air, heading it 20 yards to the feet of my AF who slips in the unmarked Mezzala (again) for an easy finish.

Ignoring the Libero aspect, this style of counter attacking looks set to be a real winner. With real quality throughout the team, we have to seek to counter from higher up the pitch and show real quality when we finally have the ball. With just 39% possession we still completely outplayed a very strong Bayern team, looking an immense threat every time we won the ball. What's more, against weaker opposition the forcing of turnovers should be even more frequent resulting is some potentially hefty score-lines (something which I have somewhat missed with the counter-attack style). 

FYI, managed to find this guy, purchased for £75m from Man U, to play the Libero - Attack:

 

Quick update: My Second XI just decimated Sevilla in the European Super cup. My second choice Libero also pulled a blinder:

His goal was a thirty yard screamer! This is just getting better! Also, Shadow Striker looking deadly.

Edited July 14, 2023 by toshimitzou1
Added Super Cup Result

[Robson 07]

Easily the best active thread, great save you have btw @toshimitzou1 .

I've started to wander down this road now, perhaps inspired by some of the insight this has given me.  The only contribution I want to make so far is about player "conditioning".  I'm finding it beneficial to keep the overall tactic intensity at lower levels so that the team has the stamina, fitness and pace to run devastating counters when given the opportunity.  Switching to this style enabled my Blackburn team kick on in the 2nd half of the 1st season to get promoted, at which point I've just taken the West Ham job.

Basically I'm keeping things like tempo, triggers at lower levels than most and obviously counterpress (off).

[toshimitzou1]

5 hours ago, Robson 07 said:

Easily the best active thread, great save you have btw @toshimitzou1 .

I've started to wander down this road now, perhaps inspired by some of the insight this has given me.  The only contribution I want to make so far is about player "conditioning".  I'm finding it beneficial to keep the overall tactic intensity at lower levels so that the team has the stamina, fitness and pace to run devastating counters when given the opportunity.  Switching to this style enabled my Blackburn team kick on in the 2nd half of the 1st season to get promoted, at which point I've just taken the West Ham job.

Basically I'm keeping things like tempo, triggers at lower levels than most and obviously counterpress (off).

Cheers. Yes, conditioning and the low levels of intensity this style demands allow for greater impetus at the back end of the season. Furthermore, as @Cloud9 has advised, these energy reserves can be used in-game to turn on a counter press when at key points (end of halves etc.). 

[toshimitzou1]

Hi all. Big decision: Upping sticks before the Christmas break and heading to South America. I've just added all South American Leagues to be playable from the upcoming January, with the playable European leagues being removed from the following summer. It just feels less fun when things get 'too' easy:

Things to look forward to:

- Taking over a small South American club and attempting to deploy 'counter-attacking' football against technically superior opponents.

- Potentially bringing the Libero role back home (although with a far more cautious set of surrounding roles).

- Eventually attempting to beat the European superweights in the club world cup.

 

 

[ConnorW6]

Hey Guys, been lurking this post for awhile, I decided I want to run a more traditional  but effective counter attacking 442, think Dyche-esque, I followed some of the rules of thumbs including Pi's 1for passing range, I'm just looking for any other advice yous might have on this tactic/ what I should change when against weaker teams. Cheers lads, look forward to hearing the suggestions @Cloud9

Edited July 17, 2023 by ConnorW6

[Cloud9]

20 hours ago, ConnorW6 said:

Hey Guys, been lurking this post for awhile, I decided I want to run a more traditional  but effective counter attacking 442, think Dyche-esque, I followed some of the rules of thumbs including Pi's 1for passing range, I'm just looking for any other advice yous might have on this tactic/ what I should change when against weaker teams. Cheers lads, look forward to hearing the suggestions @Cloud9

Tactics look good overall! Here are some suggestions for you to consider: 

Against Weaker Opposition

• I would look to take to the game to weak opposition this late in a save.
  • A second high lines tactic could be useful for these situations when the opposition sits deep. 
• The TF works excellently as the reference point for the attack on a midblock, but can also be great for breaking down opposition as well. 
• Smaller changes to your existing setup against weaker teams (esp if you want to continue to sit deep yourself):
  • Double BPD.
  • More Fluid.
  • Positive mentality.
  • Both fullbacks going forward.
  • Going less narrow.

General Tactical Tweaks

• Consider running the TF(s) on attack, very little goal threat outside the striking partnership 
• Left W(s) -> IW or WP(a), FB(a) -> WB(s/a)
  • Give you a little more dynamic attack 
• DLP(d) -> DLP(s) or CM(s/d).
  • Farias doesn't have the attributes to play in a two man midfield (not enough defensive fight in him). 
  • DLP serves as a ball magnet and Farias is one of the weaker players in your squad. I would a blank CM role for him so less of the play will go through him.
  • If you want to stay with the DLP, a DLP(s) will still hold while stepping up more into midfield and playing a little more expressively. 
• I would prefer an AF for the counter attack style & w/Alvarez.
  • Like the P/TF pairing if you go front foot.
• Consider adding "play for set pieces"
  • Helps to break up play and is always a good option with a TF in the squad.
• Liberal use of "hit crosses early" could be very effective w/this setup. 

Off Field Issues

• Most of your current problems seem to stem from off the field stuff.
• The lads look really tired.
  • I would recommend building a squad just big enough where you aren't forced to play players in the Red.
  • Not only a big injury risk/form killer, but can really hamper development if they're overplayed.
• A couple of the players seem unsettled.
  • Squad morale is struggling.
  • I would prioritize the man management part of your save to get things ticking over. 

Hope some of that helps

Edited July 18, 2023 by Cloud9

[ConnorW6]

On 18/07/2023 at 07:13, Cloud9 said:

Tactics look good overall! Here are some suggestions for you to consider: 

Against Weaker Opposition

• I would look to take to the game to weak opposition this late in a save.
  • A second high lines tactic could be useful for these situations when the opposition sits deep. 
• The TF works excellently as the reference point for the attack on a midblock, but can also be great for breaking down opposition as well. 
• Smaller changes to your existing setup against weaker teams (esp if you want to continue to sit deep yourself):
  • Double BPD.
  • More Fluid.
  • Positive mentality.
  • Both fullbacks going forward.
  • Going less narrow.

General Tactical Tweaks

• Consider running the TF(s) on attack, very little goal threat outside the striking partnership 
• Left W(s) -> IW or WP(a), FB(a) -> WB(s/a)
  • Give you a little more dynamic attack 
• DLP(d) -> DLP(s) or CM(s/d).
  • Farias doesn't have the attributes to play in a two man midfield (not enough defensive fight in him). 
  • DLP serves as a ball magnet and Farias is one of the weaker players in your squad. I would a blank CM role for him so less of the play will go through him.
  • If you want to stay with the DLP, a DLP(s) will still hold while stepping up more into midfield and playing a little more expressively. 
• I would prefer an AF for the counter attack style & w/Alvarez.
  • Like the P/TF pairing if you go front foot.
• Consider adding "play for set pieces"
  • Helps to break up play and is always a good option with a TF in the squad.
• Liberal use of "hit crosses early" could be very effective w/this setup. 

Off Field Issues

• Most of your current problems seem to stem from off the field stuff.
• The lads look really tired.
  • I would recommend building a squad just big enough where you aren't forced to play players in the Red.
  • Not only a big injury risk/form killer, but can really hamper development if they're overplayed.
• A couple of the players seem unsettled.
  • Squad morale is struggling.
  • I would prioritize the man management part of your save to get things ticking over. 

Hope some of that helps

Thank you so much, did the corrections and it works so much better

[ultrAslan]

Yes me again haha.I'm struggling with my counter-attacking tactic as my defenders are getting beaten too easily. I'd like to know what attributes I should focus on for each position to build a  foundation for this style of play. Whether it's selecting the right defenders, midfielders, or forwards, what are the essential attributes to consider for a successful counter-attacking formation, especially when it comes to improving my defense? 

[bababooey]

19 hours ago, ultrAslan said:

Yes me again haha.I'm struggling with my counter-attacking tactic as my defenders are getting beaten too easily. I'd like to know what attributes I should focus on for each position to build a  foundation for this style of play. Whether it's selecting the right defenders, midfielders, or forwards, what are the essential attributes to consider for a successful counter-attacking formation, especially when it comes to improving my defense? 

It could be down to a number of different things, which is a crappy answer, but it's true.   For example, what team are you managing? How good is the team? What teams do you struggle to beat? Is there a particular style that you can't crack? Etc.

What I would recommend doing is make sure that your team is doing well off the field first. So, things like morale, training, general happiness, leadership, etc. When those things are solid, you can focus solely on the match itself.

Then, I would consider looking at the preset tactics.  Direct or fluid counter-attack are a good starting point.  

Keep in mind that there is a big difference between being cautious and being negative.  If your team is too cautious, you'll end up being negative, inviting way too much pressure, and making it easy for the opposition. 

[Cloud9]

20 hours ago, ultrAslan said:

Yes me again haha.I'm struggling with my counter-attacking tactic as my defenders are getting beaten too easily. I'd like to know what attributes I should focus on for each position to build a  foundation for this style of play. Whether it's selecting the right defenders, midfielders, or forwards, what are the essential attributes to consider for a successful counter-attacking formation, especially when it comes to improving my defense? 

If they're getting beaten too easily, you might be inviting too much pressure/not putting enough back on the opposition. Attribute wise, I would look at concentration and then anticipation for players you can rely on. Since you won't have the ball a lot of the time, aggression becomes a key attribute in influencing the game yourself. By position is for mid blocks:

Defenders: Well rounded mentals + good athletes. Players who won't get beat in a 1v1. 

Midfielders: Aggression, concentration, tackling & strength or agi/balance. Decent athletes. These guys need to impact the opposition out possession and win the ball back for you. 

Strikers: Off the ball is by far the most important. Good pace/acceleration and decent anticipation for the offsides.

That's a solid foundation for a counterattack setup. You'll also need 2-3 players in the defensive and midfield unit capable of launching a counter when you're actually in possession. In terms of a gk: Aerial reach is key, then I like anticipation, concentration, and reflexes for penalty kicks. 

Edited August 29, 2023 by Cloud9

[ultrAslan]

On 29/08/2023 at 17:18, bababooey said:

inviting way too much pressure, and making it easy for the opposition. 

What are the indications that Im inviting too much pressure and how to counter the threat? 

On 29/08/2023 at 17:41, Cloud9 said:

If they're getting beaten too easily, you might be inviting too much pressure/not putting enough back on the opposition. Attribute wise, I would look at concentration and then anticipation for players you can rely on. Since you won't have the ball a lot of the time, aggression becomes a key attribute in influencing the game yourself. By position is for mid blocks:

Defenders: Well rounded mentals + good athletes. Players who won't get beat in a 1v1. 

Midfielders: Aggression, concentration, tackling & strength or agi/balance. Decent athletes. These guys need to impact the opposition out possession and win the ball back for you. 

Strikers: Off the ball is by far the most important. Good pace/acceleration and decent anticipation for the offsides.

That's a solid foundation for a counterattack setup. You'll also need 2-3 players in the defensive and midfield unit capable of launching a counter when you're actually in possession. In terms of a gk: Aerial reach is key, then I like anticipation, concentration, and reflexes for penalty kicks. 

Thanks bro, you gave the answer I was looking for! I managed with my Galatasaray save in the 2nd season to reach the final of the Champions League. This is the counter tactic that Im using and as you can see the familiarity is not 100%, becuase in my own league I am a top tier club so I dont need to play a counter attacking formation. In the Champions League I am the underdog, so I need to use this tactic because many teams are attacking me to death: 

Spoiler

Squad view and attribute list:

 

Spoiler

 

Edited September 1, 2023 by ultrAslan

[Cloud9]

4 hours ago, ultrAslan said:

What are the indications that Im inviting too much pressure and how to counter the threat? 

Thanks bro, you gave the answer I was looking for! I managed with my Galatasaray save in the 2nd season to reach the final of the Champions League. This is the counter tactic that Im using and as you can see the familiarity is not 100%, becuase in my own league I am a top tier club so I dont need to play a counter attacking formation. In the Champions League I am the underdog, so I need to use this tactic because many teams are attacking me to death: 

  Reveal hidden contents

Squad view and attribute list:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Great squad, you can win the champions league with that with a couple tweaks. Really like the aggressive profile on both of those fullbacks. 

Thing that stands out is the weakness/lack of height in the center back pairing, would bring in some serious quality in that department for a defensive strategy. DM also has very little height on him.

To do list: 2 new centerbacks + a complete dm. Bump Torriera into an 8 role as a the CM(s) (high teamwork is esp nice for this role) and have Moriba play as the MEZ(s) instead for those big champions league nights. You can then use the CM(s) as a utility player as well as the lungs of the team, if there's an opposition player running the game you can have him shut him down specifically w/out sacrificing your own dm to do it. 

Edited September 2, 2023 by Cloud9

[ultrAslan]

On 02/09/2023 at 01:00, Cloud9 said:

Great squad, you can win the champions league with that with a couple tweaks. Really like the aggressive profile on both of those fullbacks. 

Haha thanks! 

On 02/09/2023 at 01:00, Cloud9 said:

Thing that stands out is the weakness/lack of height in the center back pairing, would bring in some serious quality in that department for a defensive strategy. DM also has very little height on him.

Yes was really questioning my defenders, because of their heights. Both of them under the 1.90 . They where also lacking for their speed. Even with a mid block the strikers where running through my defense.

On 02/09/2023 at 01:00, Cloud9 said:

To do list: 2 new centerbacks + a complete dm. Bump Torriera into an 8 role as a the CM(s) (high teamwork is esp nice for this role) and have Moriba play as the MEZ(s) instead for those big champions league nights. You can then use the CM(s) as a utility player as well as the lungs of the team, if there's an opposition player running the game you can have him shut him down specifically w/out sacrificing your own dm to do it. 

Wow! I must admit, I didn’t see how Torreira could work as an 8, but you were absolutely right. I’m considering keeping him in that role and adding a dedicated defensive midfielder. What attributes should I look for in a DM? The Mezzala(S) switch with Moriba worked well! Holding our midfield.

I’m typing this from my phone, but I wanted to share that we won against City and played just like you described. I’ll share the screenshots later. I had Torreira as an 8 and Moriba as a Mezzala(S), with Gagliardini as my DM due to his height, physicals, and excellent mental attributes. We were still under a lot of pressure and they get a lot of opportunities, so I’m thinking of replacing my defenders soon.

[Cloud9]

8 hours ago, ultrAslan said:

Haha thanks! 

Yes was really questioning my defenders, because of their heights. Both of them under the 1.90 . They where also lacking for their speed. Even with a mid block the strikers where running through my defense.

Wow! I must admit, I didn’t see how Torreira could work as an 8, but you were absolutely right. I’m considering keeping him in that role and adding a dedicated defensive midfielder. What attributes should I look for in a DM? The Mezzala(S) switch with Moriba worked well! Holding our midfield.

I’m typing this from my phone, but I wanted to share that we won against City and played just like you described. I’ll share the screenshots later. I had Torreira as an 8 and Moriba as a Mezzala(S), with Gagliardini as my DM due to his height, physicals, and excellent mental attributes. We were still under a lot of pressure and they get a lot of opportunities, so I’m thinking of replacing my defenders soon.

 For a back 4, I would look for 1 tall/1fast CB. You're at the top level of the game already, so I would view 12 as competent in an attribute and 17 as better than everyone else on the pitch. If you can pick up a CB with 16-17jumping reach/str and 12+ pace to pair with a 15-17 pace/acceleration CB (+ least 14 for str/jumping reach), you'll have a partnership that can pretty much deal with everything a top tier opposition can throw at you. 

For a complete DM, it's similar to what you've done with Sesko where you've distilled a striker partnership down to one player (height, pace, strength, ability). I think a DM w/good jumping reach can do a lot to cut out long balls, I would look for a good athlete w/good mentals who can ideally pass the ball around at least competently. A counter attacking 4-3-3 can be fairly dependent on the DM to cut out opposition attacks and then transition into an attack yourself. Gagliardini looks like a really strong profile for the role and should be able to perform excellently there. I'd prioritize replacing the center back partnership first before looking to bring in a star DM as age starts to catch up w him.

Congrats on your Man City victory  If you can take them down you should be well on your way to European trophies. 

Edited September 3, 2023 by Cloud9

[ultrAslan]

@Cloud9

Here I am again, haha! I've just reread the entire topic and played FM23 for a while, and I have a lot of questions. Hopefully, you can answer them for me since you've been the one who has helped me throughout this whole discussion on this subject, and I've learned a lot from you. Some of these questions might be similar to those asked earlier:

• When should you consider to change the Width in your formation? I truly believe that every formation even when you play narrower has some kind of width already in it, so why would you stretch the width? 
• Regarding the choice between a wingback and a fullback, doesn't a full back on support duty naturally get involved in the attack when there's room and safety to exploit the wings? All I can see in this topic mostly is the choice for a wingback rather than a fullback.
• How do you effectively defend against aggressive wing play against top opponents? Im seeing the wing backs running through the wings like they are on drugs.
• I've noticed that many tactics here feature a two-striker partnership. Is it that using a lone striker is less effective in a counterattacking strategy? I love the 4-3-3dm and that is a lone striker formation.
• You mentioned that you are always looking for players that are better in 1v1 situations, on what basis is a player better at 1v1? Are there some attributes you are looking and saying ok this player is now better in 1v1?mental attributes, physical? or specific key attributes in comparison to the opponent?
• In the context of counterattacking tactic, when do you find it most suitable to adopt a defensive mentality versus a positive mentality, as you've mentioned that these two are well-suited for counterattacking football? When would you use a positive mentality for counter attacking?
• If you're setting up a central midfield partnership with one player as a Mezzala (A) and the other as a CM (S), what Player Instructions (PIs) would you use for the central midfielder (CM(s)?
• What are some  tweaks that you do in a match and why do you do that? Could you share some tweaks when you are playing with this strategy? Love to know what you do and why you do it.
• How would you create a fluid counter attacking tactic?
• how many roles would you want to have when you are creating a tactic to keep the pressure on the opposition in a counter attacking tactic? What would be a minimum for example like attacking roles?
• how many players should close down more on the opposition? or just keep it standard from the TI?
• What are your most recent findings regarding this strategy, and how have you been creating a tactic lately?

I apologize if my questions seem overwhelming, but these are the ones as I revisited the entire discussion.

[Cloud9]

On 16/10/2023 at 16:25, ultrAslan said:

@Cloud9

Here I am again, haha! I've just reread the entire topic and played FM23 for a while, and I have a lot of questions. Hopefully, you can answer them for me since you've been the one who has helped me throughout this whole discussion on this subject, and I've learned a lot from you. Some of these questions might be similar to those asked earlier:

• When should you consider to change the Width in your formation? I truly believe that every formation even when you play narrower has some kind of width already in it, so why would you stretch the width? 
• Regarding the choice between a wingback and a fullback, doesn't a full back on support duty naturally get involved in the attack when there's room and safety to exploit the wings? All I can see in this topic mostly is the choice for a wingback rather than a fullback.
• How do you effectively defend against aggressive wing play against top opponents? Im seeing the wing backs running through the wings like they are on drugs.
• I've noticed that many tactics here feature a two-striker partnership. Is it that using a lone striker is less effective in a counterattacking strategy? I love the 4-3-3dm and that is a lone striker formation.
• You mentioned that you are always looking for players that are better in 1v1 situations, on what basis is a player better at 1v1? Are there some attributes you are looking and saying ok this player is now better in 1v1?mental attributes, physical? or specific key attributes in comparison to the opponent?
• In the context of counterattacking tactic, when do you find it most suitable to adopt a defensive mentality versus a positive mentality, as you've mentioned that these two are well-suited for counterattacking football? When would you use a positive mentality for counter attacking?
• If you're setting up a central midfield partnership with one player as a Mezzala (A) and the other as a CM (S), what Player Instructions (PIs) would you use for the central midfielder (CM(s)?
• What are some  tweaks that you do in a match and why do you do that? Could you share some tweaks when you are playing with this strategy? Love to know what you do and why you do it.
• How would you create a fluid counter attacking tactic?
• how many roles would you want to have when you are creating a tactic to keep the pressure on the opposition in a counter attacking tactic? What would be a minimum for example like attacking roles?
• how many players should close down more on the opposition? or just keep it standard from the TI?
• What are your most recent findings regarding this strategy, and how have you been creating a tactic lately?

I apologize if my questions seem overwhelming, but these are the ones as I revisited the entire discussion.

Hello! Hope you've been well . On your questions:

• On Width
  • Width determines how compact your players are and the space between them. "Fairly narrow" or "narrow" will make you more difficult to play through. Going wider is useful to maximizing the pace of wide players but makes you defensively less resolute. This can be particularly problematic if you're running a pressing trap in your counter attack, as you can nullify your strength. 
    • If you've built in a midblock that's good at winning the ball back, going wider can actually nullify what you're good at. If you go behind a goal, making adjustments to go after the opposition on a narrow width can play to the squads strengths. I usually open up the width when the opposition is much weaker, or sits back after scoring a goal. A "go for it" strategy will struggle if the opposition has happy to sit back after taking an early lead. 
    • Again, for the counter attack itself: the speed of wide players is the key indicator for me on when I would consider expanding my width when sitting back on the counter. Against really strong teams I will still keep it narrow.
• Wingback vs Fullback
  • In simplistic terms, the fullback is a defence first version of the wingback. The wingback will have a tendency to be wider and go forward more in my experience. The FB(s) can also do these things, esp if you tell him to do so in his PIs, but his natural inclinations will be more conservative. 
  • In a back 4 usually I like one FB and one WB, this gives a player licence to go forward and another asked to stay back. Utilizing double wingbacks can leave you more exposed on the turnover. 
    • WB(s) and FB(s) are the two roles I utilize the most in a back 4. WB(d) and FB(a) are nice roles as well, but I would avoid FB(d) entirely and WB(a) in most situations. 
• Aggressive Wing Play
  • This is a little difficult to answer since it's situational on your squad / tactic. 
  • If you're running a back 4 with Fullbacks/Wingbacks, they're fairly isolated positions in the formation (4-3-3, 4-2-3-1). You'd need FB/WB's w/attributes capable of winning their 1v1 battles with the wide attacker. 
    • A 5 at the back system or a compact 4-4-2 gives your wide defenders assistance and leaves them less isolated. This is a big help if the opposition wide players are quicker than your fullbacks.
  • Playing w/out Counter Press and with less Trigger Press will see your banks of defenders not go to win the ball so often, and therefore not get beaten. 
    • Running a central pressing trap can be a strong way of mitigating dangerous opposition wide players.
    • Putting PIs on their frontline outside of "show onto foot" can be a good way to have your players caught out, I'd only use them there if it's a clear benefit. 
    • Adding the TI Drop Off More will give the backline a safety first approach which can help deal with balls into space. 
• Strikers
  • Lone striker is fine, but you need a high quality player which can be difficult. Height is especially important on a striker and you'll also want pace on the counterattack, that's a big ask for one player and it's easier to replicate in a pairing. 
  • 4-3-3 is a great formation for a midblock counter attack, but again it requires more complete players in comparison to other approaches. The DM and Striker positions particularly so.
• On 1v1's 
  • This is also pretty dependent on position and the tactic you're running. To take the fullbacks you asked about earlier, something like this on a developing player would be the mold I look for:

• Aggression, Concentration, Teamwork are important for me here and are difficult to train.
  • I look for good speed and decent strength on a defensive fullback/wingback, but just as important is their ability to run a ton. 
• Outside of those attributes I'm looking for the player to be well balanced, particularly over the mental attributes. 
• I'd look to push his speed/strength up a few ticks before focusing heavily on his anticipation and finally sticking him on a individualized training regime to improve his "defensive positioning" (decisions/marking/positioning).
• It can be tempting to go for the super high speed/strength fullbacks but I'd view it as a bonus, it's much more important for them to be well rounded imo. As always, consistency/personality go a long way with positions you'll need to rely on.
  • Keep in mind whoever he's going up against. Everything is relative and if your solid fullback is up against a top tier winger, leaving them in a 1v1 can still be dangerous. Having a midfielder go after the guy on the pass map who passes to the winger can be a good fix if you're in a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 or any other formation w/out that natural cover. 

That's all I can get to for now, I'll try to pop on to answer the rest of your questions when I get a moment

Edited October 20, 2023 by Cloud9

[ultrAslan]

On 18/10/2023 at 11:24, Cloud9 said:

That's all I can get to for now, I'll try to pop on to answer the rest of your questions when I get a moment

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you so much for your detailed explanation. I really appreciate the time you took to clarify these aspects of the game for me. It's much clearer now! Another thing that is popping is how would you setup a pressing trap? Do you have any examples or scenario where you use it or how you use it? 

On 10/07/2023 at 04:28, Cloud9 said:

Here is the basic setup for how I like to set up with in the 3-4-2-1 setup. 

I was looking at your setup for the 3-4-2-1 and gonna try this in FM24!

• Passing meter changes w/no playmaker are key + take more risks. This is pivotal for the tactic to work.  Get some playmaking traits on talented players as well. No ball magnet + the passing meters creates a very quick/dynamic counter.
  • Passing "Slightly more direct" vs "More direct" based on opponent quality. I prefer "slightly more direct" with the box midfield but I think it's largely stylistic w/the passing meter changes.

What do you mean by "Passing meter changes w/no playmaker are key + take more risks". 

[Cloud9]

5 hours ago, ultrAslan said:

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you so much for your detailed explanation. I really appreciate the time you took to clarify these aspects of the game for me. It's much clearer now! Another thing that is popping is how would you setup a pressing trap? Do you have any examples or scenario where you use it or how you use it? 

I was looking at your setup for the 3-4-2-1 and gonna try this in FM24!

• Passing meter changes w/no playmaker are key + take more risks. This is pivotal for the tactic to work.  Get some playmaking traits on talented players as well. No ball magnet + the passing meters creates a very quick/dynamic counter.
  • Passing "Slightly more direct" vs "More direct" based on opponent quality. I prefer "slightly more direct" with the box midfield but I think it's largely stylistic w/the passing meter changes.

What do you mean by "Passing meter changes w/no playmaker are key + take more risks". 

On Pressing Traps:

• I use mark tighter on my players who I want to force the opposition into the trap itself. In a 4-4-2 that's the wide midfielders and in a 5-3-2 I use the wingbacks. I couple this w/show onto foot for the OI.
• Stop crosses can be an additional helpful TI if you're setting up a central pressing trap and will make those wide players a bit more aggressive in pushing opposition inside. 
  • Central pressing traps can help you deal with talented/quick opposition. Pushing them into the mixer prevents them from using their ability and particularly speed, to full effect. 
• You want to play on one of the narrow settings for this. 
• The players within the pressing trap should all have the attributes to win the ball back (tackling/aggression/anticipation/strength is important here). 
• You want 3-4 players (triangle or box) in the funneled space that look to collapse on the opposition and win the ball back.
  • Like the passing meters you can play around with their PI pressing for those 3-4 players so that they're more aggressive in triggering the press than the rest of the team. 
• You can do a wide pressing trap as well (using the edge of the pitch as third man), or in any part of the pitch really, but they're a little bit more tricky to pull off in the ME. I get frustrated with them personally since the ME doesn't punish opposition before forced to play through wide areas like it does in real life. 

I detailed a fairly negative pressing trap tactic I put together on this thread. One of the nice things about a tactic like this is you can make role changes to target opposition weak points or deal with their strengths such as: (HB-> RGA, MEZ(s) ->MEZ(a), WB(s) to WB(a), CAR->BWM(s), WCB(s)->WCB(d) etc.) while still keeping the core of the idea of the setup. The formation also avoids the 1v1 situations we chatted on earlier, by partnering players up/providing cover. The area of the pitch we're trying to win the ball back is also lower risk if we fail, compared to a fullback diving in on a winger trying to drive to goal. 

 

On Passing meters

• You can drag the players Passing Meters (pass it shorter or more direct) based on a players ability on the ball. You'll need to drag around the teams passing meter itself for each player because the UI is a bit weird. This is a pain but it creates a passing style where most of your players are quickly laying the ball off to the more talented ones who launch the counter.
  • This prevents wasted turnovers in possession when you finally do win the ball back, as only players capable of progressing the ball will attempt it (rather than your 8 passing CB hoofing it). 
  • W/out a playmaker in the squad there's also no ball magnet, which keeps your counters dynamic and they don't all go through one player which can slow down the counter. 
• If you tell a player to take more risks, they'll play more progressive passes/balls into space (I think there's a little bit of a modifier for dribbling etc. but that just comes with the PI) which will help you launch efficient/direct counters. 
• If you end up wanting to run a playmaker anyways, I would recommend the Regista role for a counter attack system. They offer a great range of line breaking passes that can justify a lot of the play going through them. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Cloud9

[ultrAslan]

On 20/10/2023 at 03:55, Cloud9 said:

you can make role changes to target opposition weak points or deal with their strengths such as: (HB-> RGA, MEZ(s) ->MEZ(a), WB(s) to WB(a), CAR->BWM(s), WCB(s)->WCB(d) etc.) while still keeping the core of the idea of the setup.

What do you mean by role changes to target opposition weak points? When would you change a role and what weakness are you pointing? 

Regarding the pressing strategy you mentioned earlier, I would appreciate some guidance on how to approach it effectively. For instance, I'm currently using a 4-3-3DM formation with a defensive mentality, and I've set the pressing intensity to standard (slider in the middle) to allow for adjustments via Player Instructions (PIs). To counter the opponent's aggressive wingplay, I've been trying to funnel them inside. Specifically, I implemented (TIs) like 'Trap Inside' and 'Stop Crosses.' In the PI settings, I've instructed my backs to 'mark tighter,' engage in 'hard tackling,' and 'close down' aggressively, but I'm unsure if this is the right approach. Additionally, the opposition comes to the crowded area, where my defensive midfielder (DM) operates. I've also maxed out the pressing instructions for my DM when the ball is played from the center. The front five players are set to 'close down' and 'tackle harder' to apply the first pressure. However, I have some doubts about  my backs and DM if I should also be set to 'max closing down in order to disorient their wingplay when they are coming inside. How would you setup the pressing for a 4-3-3DM?

Thank you again for claryfing my questions, give you already enough headaches haha. But this topic changed the way I played the game and really enjoying this kinds of setup to soak the pressure and give the opponent a payback in the latter minutes of the game.

[Cloud9]

5 hours ago, ultrAslan said:

What do you mean by role changes to target opposition weak points? When would you change a role and what weakness are you pointing? 

Regarding the pressing strategy you mentioned earlier, I would appreciate some guidance on how to approach it effectively. For instance, I'm currently using a 4-3-3DM formation with a defensive mentality, and I've set the pressing intensity to standard (slider in the middle) to allow for adjustments via Player Instructions (PIs). To counter the opponent's aggressive wingplay, I've been trying to funnel them inside. Specifically, I implemented (TIs) like 'Trap Inside' and 'Stop Crosses.' In the PI settings, I've instructed my backs to 'mark tighter,' engage in 'hard tackling,' and 'close down' aggressively, but I'm unsure if this is the right approach. Additionally, the opposition comes to the crowded area, where my defensive midfielder (DM) operates. I've also maxed out the pressing instructions for my DM when the ball is played from the center. The front five players are set to 'close down' and 'tackle harder' to apply the first pressure. However, I have some doubts about  my backs and DM if I should also be set to 'max closing down in order to disorient their wingplay when they are coming inside. How would you setup the pressing for a 4-3-3DM?

Thank you again for claryfing my questions, give you already enough headaches haha. But this topic changed the way I played the game and really enjoying this kinds of setup to soak the pressure and give the opponent a payback in the latter minutes of the game.

I look at the formation/personal when looking where to target my attack. Focus play down a side is a very effective in match change that I would recommend using alongside an attacking role switch. I look at their backline and see who is a bad matchup for them vs my offensive line. If they have a Trent Alexander Arnold at right back, we're going down that side. Switching the role on that flank helps to create an overload that the defensively weak player will struggle to deal with.

• If you see an IWB in a back 4, I always attack down that side. There will be space there when the ball is turned over. 
• Old slow defenders are good targets. 
  • Defenders with poor mentals (sub 10) at a top flight level.
• On formations, if they're playing a Christmas tree formation, their fullbacks are more isolated. Letting both your wingbacks go forward can be a risk worth taking then, the overload can be too much for them. It's always a risk reward with who the danger points are in their formation.
• If the opposition is running a non narrow 4-4-2 or any midfield 2 against your 3, go down the middle.
• Anyone having a terrible game, or a defender on a yellow card are also potential options.
  • These decisions will also inform your width choices. If the opponent is playing a diamond for example, opening up the field and going down both wings can be very effective. 

On a pressing trap for a 4-3-3 DM, I would have the Wide attackers or wingbacks (wide attackers is a more conservative approach but can hamper your attack) set to mark tighter and the midfield 3 being asked to close down more. Avoid close down more on the backs, since they can get beat doing that. I would favor two aggressive 8's with the DM being allowed to do his thing behind them. Tackle Harder + close down more on the 8's is then fairly low risk, and any fouls they do give up won't be in any esp threatening areas. 

• In my experience central pressing traps are a little easier on 5 at the back systems where the WBs have cover and are well suited to bullying the opposition inside or a 4-4-2 where you've got two banks of defence for cover and the WM are again adept at pushing around the opposition. 
• You also want to have a numerical advantage ideally, or at least equal, in the space you're pushing them into. W/a 4-3-3 I would avoid using your pressing trap against a box midfield for example. 
  •  A 4-4-2 uses the strikers + the 2 CMs as a box so you've got 4 players converging on the ball. I did an extreme version of that in the tactic I linked, where I had that striker/CM box with the additional DM sitting behind as an aggressive sweeper.
• A wide pressing trap is an alternative that can work with a 4-3-3 but you need tall defenders because they'll be getting a lot of crosses this way. I haven't experimented with those as much though, so I don't have as much insight into how to pull them off effectively. I've only tried to use it situationally against a team that would play very narrow and lack the ability to play wide (a 4-4-2 diamond or a 3-4-1 are good examples).
  • I think that's an important thing to keep in mind with a pressing trap, don't use it regardless of the opposition. If they want to play where you're forcing them, it can be counter productive. 

Glad the approach is enjoyable/working for you!  

Edited October 23, 2023 by Cloud9

[Counter9]

Have anyone tried to build defend first Counter attacking football on FM24? I am struggling to get it working in a 4-3-3 formation? Do anyone have a counter attacking tactic to show me so i can get some idea. Thanks.

 

[Cloud9]

19 hours ago, Counter9 said:

Have anyone tried to build defend first Counter attacking football on FM24? I am struggling to get it working in a 4-3-3 formation? Do anyone have a counter attacking tactic to show me so i can get some idea. Thanks.

 

Post your 4-3-3? I can take a look.

If you're a direct counter attack, the same ideas generally apply as in 23. However if you're looking to implement a more fluid style, then the positional play can work wonders. Formations like the 3-4-2-1 are therefore heavily reworked from last year. 

[Counter9]

On 28/10/2023 at 11:12, Cloud9 said:

Post your 4-3-3? I can take a look.

If you're a direct counter attack, the same ideas generally apply as in 23. However if you're looking to implement a more fluid style, then the positional play can work wonders. Formations like the 3-4-2-1 are therefore heavily reworked from last year. 

This is my 4-3-3 with Real Madrid. The Winger on attack has Cut inside with ball player instruction. And for the Out of Possession instruction sometimes I select Get Stuck In or More often for pressing intensity.

I don't care if my team plays more Direct style of counter attack or Fluid style. I just want my team to play nice counter attacking football. So give me some instructions for the tactic or player roles if needed. 

Some players have personalized instruction of Pass it Shorter who has passing and vision less than 11. thanks.

 

[Guest]

On 27/10/2023 at 22:12, Cloud9 said:

Post your 4-3-3? I can take a look.

If you're a direct counter attack, the same ideas generally apply as in 23. However if you're looking to implement a more fluid style, then the positional play can work wonders. Formations like the 3-4-2-1 are therefore heavily reworked from last year. 

@Cloud9 Well shoot I was using your 3-4-2-1 from earlier in this thread as a base for my first save lol. 

[Cloud9]

3 hours ago, BlitzkriegBob25 said:

@Cloud9 Well shoot I was using your 3-4-2-1 from earlier in this thread as a base for my first save lol. 

The 3-4-2-1 will still work! But if you want to, you can take advantage of the positional play changes  Will just be a different style of play. 

[Cloud9]

On 29/10/2023 at 07:27, Counter9 said:

This is my 4-3-3 with Real Madrid. The Winger on attack has Cut inside with ball player instruction. And for the Out of Possession instruction sometimes I select Get Stuck In or More often for pressing intensity.

I don't care if my team plays more Direct style of counter attack or Fluid style. I just want my team to play nice counter attacking football. So give me some instructions for the tactic or player roles if needed. 

Some players have personalized instruction of Pass it Shorter who has passing and vision less than 11. thanks.

 

I would go positive mentality + down a tick on the direct passing.

I would say the IWB/IFB choice pins you into a more fluid style. The IWB be a little less defensively stable than your flat back 4 but will help you progress smoothly up the pitch. 

[Guest]

19 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

The 3-4-2-1 will still work! But if you want to, you can take advantage of the positional play changes  Will just be a different style of play. 

Currently I'm in League Two so I'm not sure how many quality Liberos or IFB I'll find lol. But the more fluid approach suits my team at the minute. I'm doing a mini journeyman and have ended up at Grimsby, after an awful start at Sheffield Wednesday. That had more to do with morale and player happiness which seems to be more volatile this year. So I'm keeping things basic and it seems to be working as we are sub top and aiming to make the playoffs. 

[DMVian]

This is a great thread. I'm about to start my journeyman with a semi-pro Scottish third tier side, so getting back into my counterattacking ways since for realism I can't have my squad playing a high press, possession style when half or more of opponents will be professional.

I like a 4-2-4. One W, one IF, with my DL and DR having their roles set at WB/FB based on ability and the winger they're behind. In midfield, I go with a BWM and a CM on support. I love DLPs, but in a low block, counter scheme I want the ball going forward and don't want risk of an uncreative semi-pro sitting on ball with DLP instructions.

My big question is the strikers. I always go with a pressing forward (S or D) for one spot and like to recruit a high energy FW who can run around pressing without needing to do more. In the other spot, I always go with a TF on attack. I like to imagine a strong forward who can win aerial battles and be coached to stay in the box with their back to goal. And with my current squad have a bunch of fast wingers who can run and not much else, it feels like a well made group to hoof balls forward and have my TF or PF flick the ball to wingers for a run at the defense. I've had success with this in the past. You won't find creative TFs in lower leagues, but if my GK or DEF bombs it forward to a TF who can bring it down and control the ball, I feel good with the defense not set and the ball in the opposition third with wingers running forward.

But I read on reddit TF are bad at this because they hold up on the ball too long. I've not had this experience in the past, but it's possible since I just watch "extended highlights" I'm not seeing a bunch of possessions where my TF gets the ball and stands around while the defense gets set. 

If I'm playing more possession, I'm happy with a TF dwell on the ball. From the eye test, in a counter attack, it feels like the TF is smart enough to know to distribute to a winger running forward in a good position.

Is my eye test accurate or is the game just not showing me wasted possessions where my TF wastes an advantage?

Edited October 31, 2023 by DMVian

[Cloud9]

On 31/10/2023 at 10:45, BlitzkriegBob25 said:

Currently I'm in League Two so I'm not sure how many quality Liberos or IFB I'll find lol. But the more fluid approach suits my team at the minute. I'm doing a mini journeyman and have ended up at Grimsby, after an awful start at Sheffield Wednesday. That had more to do with morale and player happiness which seems to be more volatile this year. So I'm keeping things basic and it seems to be working as we are sub top and aiming to make the playoffs. 

Very nice! Hope the playoffs come off for you  Those are like some of the most rewarding games you can win in FM I think. 

On 31/10/2023 at 11:59, DMVian said:

This is a great thread. I'm about to start my journeyman with a semi-pro Scottish third tier side, so getting back into my counterattacking ways since for realism I can't have my squad playing a high press, possession style when half or more of opponents will be professional.

I like a 4-2-4. One W, one IF, with my DL and DR having their roles set at WB/FB based on ability and the winger they're behind. In midfield, I go with a BWM and a CM on support. I love DLPs, but in a low block, counter scheme I want the ball going forward and don't want risk of an uncreative semi-pro sitting on ball with DLP instructions.

My big question is the strikers. I always go with a pressing forward (S or D) for one spot and like to recruit a high energy FW who can run around pressing without needing to do more. In the other spot, I always go with a TF on attack. I like to imagine a strong forward who can win aerial battles and be coached to stay in the box with their back to goal. And with my current squad have a bunch of fast wingers who can run and not much else, it feels like a well made group to hoof balls forward and have my TF or PF flick the ball to wingers for a run at the defense. I've had success with this in the past. You won't find creative TFs in lower leagues, but if my GK or DEF bombs it forward to a TF who can bring it down and control the ball, I feel good with the defense not set and the ball in the opposition third with wingers running forward.

But I read on reddit TF are bad at this because they hold up on the ball too long. I've not had this experience in the past, but it's possible since I just watch "extended highlights" I'm not seeing a bunch of possessions where my TF gets the ball and stands around while the defense gets set. 

If I'm playing more possession, I'm happy with a TF dwell on the ball. From the eye test, in a counter attack, it feels like the TF is smart enough to know to distribute to a winger running forward in a good position.

Is my eye test accurate or is the game just not showing me wasted possessions where my TF wastes an advantage?

4-2-4 works quite well on FM. If you want a more progressive passer than the DLP(s) I would recommend a Regista, that role pings progressive passes around for fun.  

On strikers you've got quite a lot of flexibility via the striker partnership. But regardless of a solo striker or duo you're looking to check these boxes:  

• Pace
• Height 
• Off the ball 

I prefer a PF(s) to a TF(s) in my own saves, although both have their merits. They hold up the ball but the PF(s) helps me execute pressing traps which is a style of play I find more interesting. The other issue I have with the TF(s) is that it's a bit of ball magnet so it can make a lot of your approach play very direct (that can be fine if it suits your style of play). For that reason I've favored a tall PF(s) to get the best of both worlds.

• On the plus side a good TF is very easy to find. They just need height and strength basically and everything else is a plus. 
• They don't need to be good on the ball, you can just tell both roles to "pass it shorter" in their TIs. 

I would ignore reddit as a source for FM, there's a lot of misinformation on there (at least in my opinion). I would choose the role based on which role fits your tactic, holding up the ball too long isn't a problem I've experienced in my saves. 

With a 4-2-4 I'd consider a WTM. WTM role is fun to use and great for the very direct approach of the 4-2-4. 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Cloud9

[ultrAslan]

Did someone already tested counter attacking tactics on the match engine for FM 24?

Edited November 6, 2023 by ultrAslan

[Guest]

8 hours ago, ultrAslan said:

Did someone already tested counter attacking tactics on the match engine for FM 24?

My beta save has been with Grimsby in League Two. I went from mid table to top using the principles in this thread and I'm scoring a lot of beautiful and satisfying counter attack goals. I'm sure there are nuances with the roles and match engine compared to FM 23, but overall it works really nicely in FM 24. 

[Counter9]

9 hours ago, BlitzkriegBob25 said:

My beta save has been with Grimsby in League Two. I went from mid table to top using the principles in this thread and I'm scoring a lot of beautiful and satisfying counter attack goals. I'm sure there are nuances with the roles and match engine compared to FM 23, but overall it works really nicely in FM 24. 

Can you post your tactic here?

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Counter9 said:

Can you post your tactic here?

It's really nothing special and is based on @Cloud9's 3421 mentioned earlier in this thread. The only tweak I really made was up top. I had a 2-1 for most of the season (2 AM's and 1 AF) but we recently landed Man City as an affiliate (I have no idea how we pulled that off lol) so an influx of talent forced some changes.

But I'm abandoning the save now that the full version of FM24 is out so who knows how well the 1-2 up top would have fared. I'd rather manage in a higher league and do some actual team building, but maybe I'll come back to it later on. 

[Poison]

Personally I play 5-2-2-1 DM AM, the extra congested midfield and two amc as pivotal points for the counter attack seem to work well. I'm a little shaky at the flanks though.