This is offside unless I’m going crazy

[Davidog]

When the ball is played Lautaro is already in the opposition half all be it one foot just about in his own half. I know you can’t be offside when you’re in your own half but surely this is offside no? And this didn’t even go to VAR for one.

[Spurs08]

6 minutes ago, Davidog said:

When the ball is played Lautaro is already in the opposition half all be it one foot just about in his own half. I know you can’t be offside when you’re in your own half but surely this is offside no? And this didn’t even go to VAR for one.

Interesting one as he has one foot in each half! I genuinely have no idea whether that should be offside, or whether it shouldn't and the match engine's got a minor bug.

[Freakiie]

If you look at the offside lines the game draws, they can be a bit funky at times. I guess that if the game were to draw the line right there it would put it on the half way line (even if the 3D presentation doesn't look like it at all) and thus considers the player to still be fully within his own half.

Would be interesting to see a 2D replay of this situation and see where that puts Lautaro at the point of the pass.

[Davidog]

1 hour ago, Freakiie said:

If you look at the offside lines the game draws, they can be a bit funky at times. I guess that if the game were to draw the line right there it would put it on the half way line (even if the 3D presentation doesn't look like it at all) and thus considers the player to still be fully within his own half.

Would be interesting to see a 2D replay of this situation and see where that puts Lautaro at the point of the pass.

Does anyone know how to share or download a specific goal?

[Draakon]

I'm fairly confident that it can be counted as 3D graphical representation error. Visual picture is just slightly off and in match engine terms it's not offside.

I had a gane in my FM20 save where opposition scored the winner against us when the goalscorer were some 3-4 meters offside and that frustrated me like hell. Even took screenshots and videos to post it here in the bugs section.

[MaskedReferee]

6 hours ago, Spurs08 said:

Interesting one as he has one foot in each half! I genuinely have no idea whether that should be offside, or whether it shouldn't and the match engine's got a minor bug.

I can confirm that, from the image, this is offside as the judgement is taken from any goalscoring part of the body nearest the opposition goal than the second to last defender (basically any part of the body except the arms or hands).

This is probably a graphic representation error as the lines in the match engine are always slightly out but worth reporting as a bug so it can hopefully be fixed in future editions

[Prepper_Jack]

Without seeing the full circumstance, it's kind of hard to say. We would need to see the location of everyone for a start, as we can't see what other defenders may be doing a little bit off the screen. If it's the result of a botched corner or free kick, and resulting counter, it's quite likely there would be a couple defenders waiting further up in opposition territory. If there are, they represent the offside line. Would also need to see some frames leading up to this, as the ball might already be technically considered kicked before he even crossed the line.

Regardless, refs making mistakes does happen, and happens in this game more than a lot of people think. That's by design.

[Davidog]

14 hours ago, Prepper_Jack said:

Without seeing the full circumstance, it's kind of hard to say. We would need to see the location of everyone for a start, as we can't see what other defenders may be doing a little bit off the screen. If it's the result of a botched corner or free kick, and resulting counter, it's quite likely there would be a couple defenders waiting further up in opposition territory. If there are, they represent the offside line. Would also need to see some frames leading up to this, as the ball might already be technically considered kicked before he even crossed the line.

Regardless, refs making mistakes does happen, and happens in this game more than a lot of people think. That's by design.

This is a resulting counter attack and the closest defender to Lautaro is the last defender which is fairly irrelevant as he is in the Milan half. I stopped the image just as Galiardinis about to play the ball the ball which by then Lautaro is most definitely offside. 

 

Of course refs and linesmen/lineswomen make mistakes but it just annoyed me that VAR didn't even look at it and intervene, which surely must be a bug.

[phnompenhandy]

Referees do make mistakes in FM.  It's up to him if he checks for VAR - so a triple-error (if you throw in the linesman)

 

Edited May 22, 2022 by phnompenhandy

[Davidog]

34 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

Referees do make mistakes in FM.  It's up to him if he checks for VAR - so a triple-error (if you throw in the linesman)

 

VAR should step in when there is a clear and obvious error

[\'Appy \'Ammer]

Bug or no bug, I like it that there is still jeopardy in some decisions. There's many times watching real football and var should and doesn't get involved, which infuriates me. For example, Man Utd's injury time winner against West Ham this season drove me insane. I still believe that Cavani was offside, they did not look at it at the time. They only showed those lines a good 5 to 10 mins after the final whistle. 

Be good if you could post a 2d version of that freeze frame in the opening post. 

Edited May 22, 2022 by \'Appy \'Ammer

[Jack Sarahs]

Hi @Davidog

 

Thank you for posting. Have you got a screenshot of this exact moment in 2D at all? 

[Prepper_Jack]

3 hours ago, Davidog said:

VAR should step in when there is a clear and obvious error

VAR is just video technology, not some faultless AI sentient hypercomputer. Yes, there are usually humans who watch the match through VAR and communicate with the refs on the field. They're watching numerous cameras, but not usually as intently as the refs and linesmen, because their job is more to review the calls the refs make if that is requested, and not to make calls for the referees.

Offsides is often a difficult thing to determine for people anywhere on the field, the sidelines, or even the stands if it's a matter of a split second. What we might see as "clear and obvious" from our magical blimp drone camera may just not be that clear and obvious on the pitch. Humans have limited scope of vision, and for the task you need to see two things at once: the ball being kicked, and the position of all the people likely to get the ball when it's kicked. In the time it takes the eyes (and head) to move and refocus, the situation has already changed. In some cases it has changed significantly. If a man is running 22 mph, that's about 32 feet per second, which is a long ways in something people argue about in terms millimeters. Refs are just going to have a harder time calling direct counter attacks due to the nature of their vision, which is limited in scope. Add into the mix that referees and linesmen get their vision obstructed by players constantly, and it's a miracle that they call it right as often as they do.

It would become a terrible sport to play and watch if the ref stopped play each and every time to consult VAR because they thought it *might* be offsides due to them *possibly* missing something. This would be particularly demoralizing in the case of some desperate and successful direct counter by an underdog team. "Here's the ball back, sorry about that. Stinks that you can't get your surprise play in, losers". Or perhaps the refs come out 15 minutes after the fact and said a prior goal didn't stand because the VAR guys went back and reviewed the lead up play step by step. People would lose their minds. The offsides rule was built into the sport for purposes of increased entertainment. If it wasn't there, it would just be huge men playing extreme longball back and forth between goals the entire time, which would be boring. As long as the refs are enforcing it to the best of their ability, which is more than enough to stop that from happening, they are doing their job as far as I'm concerned. Does stopping play to check VAR every 30 seconds increase entertainment? If anything, errors such as this (might be) increase entertainment for fans on both sides, as one side enjoys getting one over on the other team, and the other enjoys gloating about how unjust it was, and that they were the true victors.

Personally, I'm quite pleased with the match engine in this regard, and how sophisticated it is.

[sdx15]

11 hours ago, Prepper_Jack said:

VAR is just video technology, not some faultless AI sentient hypercomputer. Yes, there are usually humans who watch the match through VAR and communicate with the refs on the field. They're watching numerous cameras, but not usually as intently as the refs and linesmen, because their job is more to review the calls the refs make if that is requested, and not to make calls for the referees.

Offsides is often a difficult thing to determine for people anywhere on the field, the sidelines, or even the stands if it's a matter of a split second. What we might see as "clear and obvious" from our magical blimp drone camera may just not be that clear and obvious on the pitch. Humans have limited scope of vision, and for the task you need to see two things at once: the ball being kicked, and the position of all the people likely to get the ball when it's kicked. In the time it takes the eyes (and head) to move and refocus, the situation has already changed. In some cases it has changed significantly. If a man is running 22 mph, that's about 32 feet per second, which is a long ways in something people argue about in terms millimeters. Refs are just going to have a harder time calling direct counter attacks due to the nature of their vision, which is limited in scope. Add into the mix that referees and linesmen get their vision obstructed by players constantly, and it's a miracle that they call it right as often as they do.

It would become a terrible sport to play and watch if the ref stopped play each and every time to consult VAR because they thought it *might* be offsides due to them *possibly* missing something. This would be particularly demoralizing in the case of some desperate and successful direct counter by an underdog team. "Here's the ball back, sorry about that. Stinks that you can't get your surprise play in, losers". Or perhaps the refs come out 15 minutes after the fact and said a prior goal didn't stand because the VAR guys went back and reviewed the lead up play step by step. People would lose their minds. The offsides rule was built into the sport for purposes of increased entertainment. If it wasn't there, it would just be huge men playing extreme longball back and forth between goals the entire time, which would be boring. As long as the refs are enforcing it to the best of their ability, which is more than enough to stop that from happening, they are doing their job as far as I'm concerned. Does stopping play to check VAR every 30 seconds increase entertainment? If anything, errors such as this (might be) increase entertainment for fans on both sides, as one side enjoys getting one over on the other team, and the other enjoys gloating about how unjust it was, and that they were the true victors.

Personally, I'm quite pleased with the match engine in this regard, and how sophisticated it is.

That’s nowhere near how VAR works with offside. When there’s a goal scored, VAR will always check for offside and the ref doesn’t have a say in that matter. Technology is used to determine whether someone was offside and the VAR has the authority to make the offside/onside call.

We can always say that not even with technology we can make 100% accurate offside calls (the positioning of the cameras and their framerate might obscure the exact point in which the player passing the ball connects with it or make it hard for the VAR to determine the furthest forward point of the attacker and defender), but then we’d be talking about very tight calls and not something the OP has shown here. This would be, as OP suggests, “a clear and obvious error” and only complete incompetence of both the VAR and AVAR would prevent this goal from being ruled offside and I’m pretty sure FM doesn’t simulate such errors.

Edited May 23, 2022 by sdx15

[Prepper_Jack]

1 hour ago, sdx15 said:

That’s nowhere near how VAR works with offside. When there’s a goal scored, VAR will always check for offside and the ref doesn’t have a say in that matter. Technology is used to determine whether someone was offside and the VAR has the authority to make the offside/onside call.

Except that isn't how the IFAB layed out the rules.

https://www.theifab.com/laws/latest/video-assistant-referee-var-protocol/#principles

The VAR Ref can only recommend to the referee that he should review a play, and that recommendation is based on what they saw on their monitors at the time. If the play happens, a goal is scored, and nobody speaks up, and the ref has no concerns, the ref marks it up as a goal, and play continues. Once play continues, the only things that can be reviewed are things related to mistaken identity and people being sent off. If someone does speak up in time, then the referee makes a decision as to goal/no goal, and whether or not to start a review. Based on the on field video review, the referee makes the final adjudication. The ref doesn't check all goals. Only the ones that are challenged, and even then only at the referee's call. The referee is the ultimate authority in the matter. The VAR team may check on their own, but their time to do so is quite limited, and they can certainly miss the same incident again, given the same constraints.

1 hour ago, sdx15 said:

This would be, as OP suggests, “a clear and obvious error”

Maybe. Again, we'd need the full picture of what's happening on the field, which can't be obtained by the screenshot supplied. The two people running back appear to have been in the "Stay Back if Needed" area, where a couple players might be in the "Stay Back" area, which is well within the defenders half.

Even if not, if nobody notices the error, it's obviously not clear and obvious.

1 hour ago, sdx15 said:

only complete incompetence of both the VAR and AVAR would prevent this goal from being ruled offside and I’m pretty sure FM doesn’t simulate such errors.

In terms of multiple people missing an incident, some might anticipate that the odds of missing something drops to zero if you have many eyes on it. This is not the case in the real world. Two things happen. The first is that the more people you say are responsible for doing something, the less each individual is engaged in regards to doing it. They think others will pick up the slack, which is basic human nature. The second is that people tend not to believe themselves, or are otherwise hesitant to mention it, if their opinion might be different than a group, and this hesitancy gets larger with the group, and even larger when that opinion might dissent from the authority in the group, should there be one. So, yeah, I'm not personally of the opinion that adding a VAR ref automatically helps this kind of situation.

I don't think that particular psychology is modeled in the game, but multiple officials can certainly mess up and miss things. In lower leagues without VAR, I've seen offsides called for clearly no reason, and dubious instances like this not called out. It is definitely within the capability of the software. FM simulates a lot of referee errors. Every player on the pitch, and every official has a field of vision, as far as I understand, that does get complicated by events on field. Aside from that, nobody is without fault, and referee's can make some awful decisions. Biased decisions too. It may not help their career, but they do it, and that is simulated too.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Prepper_Jack

[Davidog]

18 hours ago, Jack Sarahs said:

Hi @Davidog

 

Thank you for posting. Have you got a screenshot of this exact moment in 2D at all? 

Hey @Jack Sarahs yeah for sure

[Davidog]

3 hours ago, Prepper_Jack said:

Except that isn't how the IFAB layed out the rules.

https://www.theifab.com/laws/latest/video-assistant-referee-var-protocol/#principles

The VAR Ref can only recommend to the referee that he should review a play, and that recommendation is based on what they saw on their monitors at the time. If the play happens, a goal is scored, and nobody speaks up, and the ref has no concerns, the ref marks it up as a goal, and play continues. Once play continues, the only things that can be reviewed are things related to mistaken identity and people being sent off. If someone does speak up in time, then the referee makes a decision as to goal/no goal, and whether or not to start a review. Based on the on field video review, the referee makes the final adjudication. The ref doesn't check all goals. Only the ones that are challenged, and even then only at the referee's call. The referee is the ultimate authority in the matter. The VAR team may check on their own, but their time to do so is quite limited, and they can certainly miss the same incident again, given the same constraints.

Maybe. Again, we'd need the full picture of what's happening on the field, which can't be obtained by the screenshot supplied. The two people running back appear to have been in the "Stay Back if Needed" area, where a couple players might be in the "Stay Back" area, which is well within the defenders half.

Even if not, if nobody notices the error, it's obviously not clear and obvious.

In terms of multiple people missing an incident, some might anticipate that the odds of missing something drops to zero if you have many eyes on it. This is not the case in the real world. Two things happen. The first is that the more people you say are responsible for doing something, the less each individual is engaged in regards to doing it. They think others will pick up the slack, which is basic human nature. The second is that people tend not to believe themselves, or are otherwise hesitant to mention it, if their opinion might be different than a group, and this hesitancy gets larger with the group, and even larger when that opinion might dissent from the authority in the group, should there be one. So, yeah, I'm not personally of the opinion that adding a VAR ref automatically helps this kind of situation.

I don't think that particular psychology is modeled in the game, but multiple officials can certainly mess up and miss things. In lower leagues without VAR, I've seen offsides called for clearly no reason, and dubious instances like this not called out. It is definitely within the capability of the software. FM simulates a lot of referee errors. Every player on the pitch, and every official has a field of vision, as far as I understand, that does get complicated by events on field. Aside from that, nobody is without fault, and referee's can make some awful decisions. Biased decisions too. It may not help their career, but they do it, and that is simulated too.

I did already state  the closest defender to Lautaro is the last defender which is fairly irrelevant as he is in the Milan half.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Davidog

[sdx15]

6 hours ago, Prepper_Jack said:

The ref doesn't check all goals. Only the ones that are challenged, and even then only at the referee's call.

I can’t copy/paste here from my phone, but VAR automatically makes checks for everything they deem suspicious. Look at the first point under Checks in 4. Procedures.

When it comes to the ref making the final decision. yes, he’s technically the only authority in a match that makes the final decision, but if the VAR states that technology is showing (no) offside, then the only decision the ref can make is the same one the VAR has suggested. You cannot dismiss an offside call when the lines are clear.

6 hours ago, Prepper_Jack said:

In terms of multiple people missing an incident, some might anticipate that the odds of missing something drops to zero if you have many eyes on it.

I never said that. Mistakes can happen even with VAR, but now, when it comes to offside calls, those mistakes are limited to tight calls and interpretation of passive offside rules. We really don’t see players ruled onside when they were miles offside with VAR as much as we did before VAR, do we?

And as I said, sheer incompetence is still possible, even with VAR. In Croatia, we had a goal disallowed because the VAR and AVAR didn’t know who scored the goal, which is mind-boggling as the two attackers that were under review were of different race, but these types of mistakes aren’t and shouldn’t be present in FM. This is still a game, you can’t simulate blatantly obvious mistakes and expect the players to enjoy the game.

[Freakiie]

Even in 2D it clearly looks like Lautaro was already in the opposition half and should've been flagged off side. And yes, even with VAR mistakes can happen, but mistakes shouldn't happen on pretty blatant offside calls. I'd upload a .pkm of that match to the bug tracker so SI can have a closer look at it.