Struggling with Spurs [4231]

[Karlo]

Hello everyone,

At the moment I am having a very hard time performing consistently with Tottenham Hotspur in a 4231 formation.

I try to keep it somewhat realistic by not pressing like crazy. I prefer to keep the overall intensity of the tactics low so that my players are not all exhausted after 60 minutes.

 

At the moment I play like this:

No PIs - and I'm currently unlearning 'Shoots from distance' at Højbjerg.

 

Results so far:

Spoiler

 

Does anyone have any comments or suggestions. Am I missing something?

[Johnny Ace]

Doesn't look bad at all and you've only lost to City

I'd maybe just change the Winger to support for a bit of balance on that right hand side 

Just keep your eye on the Wingbacks too, they'll both be looking to get forward and you've no DM for protection ETA: I'm not sure wether they actually do on an Auto duty 

[Karlo]

25 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Doesn't look bad at all and you've only lost to City

I'd maybe just change the Winger to support for a bit of balance on that right hand side 

Just keep your eye on the Wingbacks too, they'll both be looking to get forward and you've no DM for protection ETA: I'm not sure wether they actually do on an Auto duty 

Thanks for your comment.

The BMWde has a hold position, isn't that enough to guard the midfield?
 

The next 10 matches:

Spoiler

I'm a little worried that I might be fired.

I sometimes find it too passive. We could use a little more 'bite'. Sometimes if we're playing at home and I want to force something - I change mentality to positive. 

I'm also changing Lucas Moura's duty to support - and see how it goes 

[Johnny Ace]

2 minutes ago, Karlo said:

The BMWde has a hold position, isn't that enough to guard the midfield?

Yeah, it might, that's why I said just keep your eye on it, if both WBs do go forward that it doens't leave you light at the back 

3 minutes ago, Karlo said:

I'm a little worried that I might be fired.

Typical, you beat Chelsea and Arsenal and lose to Southampton, that's a pretty Spurs thing to do 

 

5 minutes ago, Karlo said:

I sometimes find it too passive. We could use a little more 'bite'. Sometimes if we're playing at home and I want to force something - I change mentality to positive. 

You could switch up that RW role to an IF or IW,  you could flip your CM roles to allow Bentancur into channel between the AP and W or put the RWB on attack, just to offer something different in a match. Just changing a role or duty can give your tactic a bit extra and make the opposition react   

[plcarlos]

I'd swap the CM pair. Change the BMWde to a CM-D Hojbjerg actually did a good job for me on that side in that role, and assited Son for a few goals.

BMW-de will Hold postition a bit, but will aggressively chase the ball, and can leave a few gaps.

Emerson, I'd put as an FB-S, so that he's not trying to compete as much with Moura. Both are not really the best at crossing anyway.

I'd maybe change the AMC role to AMC-S with the PI more risky passing (IF needed), or Roam (IF needed). AP is a ball magnet player and can then cause players to search for that player vs play it forward..

IF Needed is Key - Only add the PI's if they are needed based on what you see after 5+ Matches.

For the squad, your not doing too bad. The rotation squad replicated the Real Spurs in the Euro comp for me as well. That sqaud needs a LOT of work to be consistent and do anything.

My last 4-2-3-1 with Spurs was during the FM22 Beta:

But that was a VERY specific fixing Nuno Project

Edited April 1, 2022 by plcarlos

[Karlo]

1 hour ago, Johnny Ace said:

You could switch up that RW role to an IF or IW,  you could flip your CM roles to allow Bentancur into channel between the AP and W or put the RWB on attack, just to offer something different in a match. Just changing a role or duty can give your tactic a bit extra and make the opposition react

Thank you, I'll keep it in mind if I want to change something during a match.

 

45 minutes ago, plcarlos said:

I'd swap the CM pair. Change the BMWde to a CM-D Hojbjerg actually did a good job for me on that side in that role, and assited Son for a few goals.

BMW-de will Hold postition a bit, but will aggressively chase the ball, and can leave a few gaps.

Emerson, I'd put as an FB-S, so that he's not trying to compete as much with Moura. Both are not really the best at crossing anyway.

I'd maybe change the AMC role to AMC-S with the PI more risky passing (IF needed), or Roam (IF needed). AP is a ball magnet player and can then cause players to search for that player vs play it forward..

IF Needed is Key - Only add the PI's if they are needed based on what you see after 5+ Matches.

For the squad, your not doing too bad. The rotation squad replicated the Real Spurs in the Euro comp for me as well. That sqaud needs a LOT of work to be consistent and do anything.

Those are some very useful tips, thank you. 

 

I'm now going to use this for a couple of matches:

[Argonaut]

Think you're playing a bit too passive for Spurs. Not enough goals. Would swap the Higher Tempo for an overall Positive mentality. And push the line of engagement 1 higher instead of 1 lower. Lloris sweeping.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Argonaut

[pileto]

I would also push the LOE to higher so you can pressure opp. defence and force more mistakes. Everything else is looking just fine

[Karlo]

2 hours ago, Argonaut said:

Think you're playing a bit too passive for Spurs. Not enough goals. Would swap the Higher Tempo for an overall Positive mentality. And push the line of engagement 1 higher instead of 1 lower. Lloris sweeping.

 

1 hour ago, pileto said:

I would also push the LOE to higher so you can pressure opp. defence and force more mistakes. Everything else is looking just fine

In the Data Hub, there is this advice:

If I push the LOE to higher, does this still work well in combination with counter?

[plcarlos]

3 hours ago, Karlo said:

 

In the Data Hub, there is this advice:

If I push the LOE to higher, does this still work well in combination with counter?

LOE is not just the forward line pressing - It's also the point of where the defenders engage the attackers. Lower could mean that they do not engage until closer to your box etc.

So Higher LOE it does stil work with counter as if your attackers tackle, they then counter forwards, with support coming from the rest of the team affected by the counter instruction.

The negative impact is there is less space to attack\counter into, That can be partialy fixed with movment from the players, be that attributes or PI's. Altimately you need to look at how the players move during an attack to see what's going well\wrong

 

 

[Karlo]

Unfortunately, I just got fired after the New Year's Eve. At that time I was 7th and I had just signed Onana (GK - Ajax) for next season.

I had already had two meetings with the board, but my promise to do better was not enough in the eyes of the board.

 

I'm starting the season again, on positive and with a clean slate.

What do you think would be good to start with in terms of team instructions (and possibly PIs)?

 

[Johnny Ace]

29 minutes ago, Karlo said:

What do you think would be good to start with in terms of team instructions (and possibly PIs)?

Roles and Duties, that looks sound. WB(S) rather than Auto

Maybe just add Play out of Defense and take it from there

Hope you have better fortunes this time round 

[plcarlos]

2 hours ago, Karlo said:

Unfortunately, I just got fired after the New Year's Eve. At that time I was 7th and I had just signed Onana (GK - Ajax) for next season.

I had already had two meetings with the board, but my promise to do better was not enough in the eyes of the board.

 

I'm starting the season again, on positive and with a clean slate.

What do you think would be good to start with in terms of team instructions (and possibly PIs)?

 

Great starting point - Clean-Slate is always good to start as you can then see what's not working and tweak. Tweak one at a time ideally and go from there. Add a few Friendlies if time allows to see how the tactic plays out, you'll then see what's working\not working

[Prolix]

On 01/04/2022 at 10:20, Karlo said:

The BMWde has a hold position, isn't that enough to guard the midfield?

Hold Position is an instruction for when your team is in possession of the ball. In other words, a BWM on support will move forward to support the play, but on defend duty will hold position/defensive shape. When out of possession, both roles are more inclined to press than hold their shape.

Edit: Apologies, I've just seen that you've switched to a CM-d.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Prolix

[Poison]

Why don't you swap Moura and Kulusevski, that will give you a little bit more of penetration I think 🤔. Also fb is for the weak, I would go for some cwb against "weaker" teams, I mean look what their fbs did the other day. Finally isn't Son THE support forward? Not sure where but definitely in a support role. Maybe if-su with cwb-su behind.

[Argonaut]

I like Son with IF-A better than IF-S.

I also like the idea of going for the Positive mentality with a clean slate, and tweak from there.

One combination I've always liked since FM14 is WB-S and FB-A. I think it would work well here too if you make Royal FB-A.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Argonaut

[bababooey]

In my opinion, Spurs have a weaker squad than Liverpool, City, Chelsea, and arguably, Man United. So I would try to adopt an approach based around being cautious against the better teams, and taking more risk against those who are of lesser quality.

I don't think there are going to be any shortcuts to a tactic that results in Spurs storming the league in your first season (although, there may be exploits or signings that could facilitate this).

FWIW, in my most recent save, Marcelo Bielsa has taken over at Spurs, and he's doing REALLY well with that lot. He's got them playing super aggressive football in a 4-3-3 and it's working.

The reason I mentioned Bielsa is that I think his style of play suits the Spurs squad really well in the game. They're physically imposing, and really fast. They press like animals, and it's actually very difficult to play against them.

I would say you might want to go down that route. Set up Spurs to be an aggressive, pressing team for the time being. Over the long term, you could change things. But the current squad is very much a good fit for that style.

 

 

[Karlo]

On 04/04/2022 at 11:53, Johnny Ace said:

Roles and Duties, that looks sound. WB(S) rather than Auto

Maybe just add Play out of Defense and take it from there

Hope you have better fortunes this time round 

 

Changed WBau to WBsu  

 

On 04/04/2022 at 14:18, plcarlos said:

Great starting point - Clean-Slate is always good to start as you can then see what's not working and tweak. Tweak one at a time ideally and go from there. Add a few Friendlies if time allows to see how the tactic plays out, you'll then see what's working\not working

That's my intention, indeed. I don't want to immediately stuff the tactics with instructions, but above all let the players make the choices themselves.

 

22 hours ago, Prolix said:

Hold Position is an instruction for when your team is in possession of the ball. In other words, a BWM on support will move forward to support the play, but on defend duty will hold position/defensive shape. When out of possession, both roles are more inclined to press than hold their shape.

Edit: Apologies, I've just seen that you've switched to a CM-d.

Thanks for the insight. I like the CMde so far 
 

19 hours ago, Poison said:

Why don't you swap Moura and Kulusevski, that will give you a little bit more of penetration I think 🤔. Also fb is for the weak, I would go for some cwb against "weaker" teams, I mean look what their fbs did the other day. Finally isn't Son THE support forward? Not sure where but definitely in a support role. Maybe if-su with cwb-su behind.

I don't think Lucas Moura is a good choice for AMC, because he would do best there as an SS, I think. And I'd like to keep Kane on attack too.

Then I would have an SSat behind a CFat, which I personally do not find a good combination.

For next season, Kulusevski may well be an option for the right - as an IWsu or IWat - if Lo Celso returns, who I plan to use as AMC.

 

18 hours ago, Argonaut said:

I like Son with IF-A better than IF-S.

I also like the idea of going for the Positive mentality with a clean slate, and tweak from there.

One combination I've always liked since FM14 is WB-S and FB-A. I think it would work well here too if you make Royal FB-A.

I do indeed keep Son as an IFat, especially with the last ME I finally see him acting as an IF the way I would like to see.

Changed Emerson from FBsu to FBat 

 

18 hours ago, bababooey said:

In my opinion, Spurs have a weaker squad than Liverpool, City, Chelsea, and arguably, Man United. So I would try to adopt an approach based around being cautious against the better teams, and taking more risk against those who are of lesser quality.

I don't think there are going to be any shortcuts to a tactic that results in Spurs storming the league in your first season (although, there may be exploits or signings that could facilitate this).

FWIW, in my most recent save, Marcelo Bielsa has taken over at Spurs, and he's doing REALLY well with that lot. He's got them playing super aggressive football in a 4-3-3 and it's working.

The reason I mentioned Bielsa is that I think his style of play suits the Spurs squad really well in the game. They're physically imposing, and really fast. They press like animals, and it's actually very difficult to play against them.

I would say you might want to go down that route. Set up Spurs to be an aggressive, pressing team for the time being. Over the long term, you could change things. But the current squad is very much a good fit for that style.

You're right, I'd be happy with a top six spot in the first season.

The last thing I want is an aggressive high pressing tactic. I'm completely done with having all my players exhausted after 60 minutes and having to constantly rotate between an A and a B team.

 

I'm now 15 matches in, and so far so good;

Spoiler

With this:

[Argonaut]

Glad you're having success! Sometimes small tweaks can make a huge difference overall. You make 2 or 3 changes and suddenly you're covering the whole pitch from every angle.

Not sure how Romero is rated in FM22 (at work now), but he's shaping up to be a world class CB in real life.

[Karlo]

27 minutes ago, Argonaut said:

Glad you're having success! Sometimes small tweaks can make a huge difference overall. You make 2 or 3 changes and suddenly you're covering the whole pitch from every angle.

Not sure how Romero is rated in FM22 (at work now), but he's shaping up to be a world class CB in real life.

Romero profile:
 

Spoiler

 

Too bad his optional future fee is €50M. 

[GabrielK]

Hello, I also play 4231, I like this formation very much, I play gegenpressing, I tested different variants and roles for 3 months, reading the forum of course.

Currently I have finished testing the Shieffield UTD team and I am very happy (I will upload photos from tektic and games in the evening)

When it comes to advice, like this:

1. IF and IW are not suitable for the game unless you play with real liverpool etc, the best are ordinary W with support option in 4231

2. Side defenders are best FBw, in defense they protect well and play conservatively in attack, not like e.g. WB runs like a moron to the end of the line, loss of ball, double and goal

3. The key to success in playing 4231 or 433 is to increase only LoE to the max, increasing the defense line is pointless (tested in 100 matches)