Not for sale

[DP]

13 minutes ago, XaW said:

Yes, I've not argued against that.

I think anyone could, but that does not make it so that the player would be sold for that value. Accfording to CIES (https://www.football-observatory.com/-values-123187), Kevin De Bruyne is worth:

Do you really think Man City would sell him for that price?

I see what you mean, but at the same time this info is only for the user, and what worth is it if that's an arbitrary price that West Ham would never come close to selling him for? So if he has been shown to be worth £70m or whatever, and West Ham consider him so important that they would negotiate to £250m if you were to offer £60m. I don't think most players would find that £70m tag valuable at all...

The game goes outside the values in cases where the selling club either overrate or underrate their player. So a player with the value of £5-10m, might sell for £2m or they would not be willing to sell for under £25m based on circumstances. But the game gives the general idea that his value should be around £5-10m in general.

In the old games Shearer would be valued at £15m, but you would be unable to make an offer for him since that's how the game worked then. That's why SI changed it into "negotiate into absurd prices" and then that was wrong too...

Yes and my point is I preferred how it was in those games. A generic value of a player so you know how highly the market rates him. If he was not for sale - then that’s fair enough. 
 

Personally I just found it more fun that way. 

[XaW]

1 minute ago, DP said:

Yes and my point is I preferred how it was in those games. A generic value of a player so you know how highly the market rates him. If he was not for sale - then that’s fair enough. 

Personally I just found it more fun that way. 

Can't argue with personal preference!  But the preference seems to be quite divided among players.

[phd_angel]

On 25/10/2021 at 15:33, Dbuk1 said:

Two points on players not for sale in the game.

1. Every player has a price (my opinion). If the game wants to make players not for sale then maybe they can state that when enquiring etc.???

2. It is a little frustrating when player searching via certain stats and players of high value (not for sale) are on the opposite end of the value scale. 

I totally agree.  Every player (house, car, etc.) has a market value, whether or not he's for sale.

There are a variety of club-related reasons why they don't want to sell him but this has nothing to do with his intrinsic value ( compared to other players in the market).  More than buying/selling, a player's market value indicate his standing in the market, and also shows the value of a club "assets", monitor payroll ratios, etc..

This is basic economics 101, and it's just plain obvious that SI will have to fix this silly feature sooner or later. 

Edited August 24, 2022 by phd_angel

[Iggy Hassan]

I don't know why Leicester have turned down £70m for Forfana from Chelsea. They clearly don't have any money for new signings as the have only brought in alex smithies for free. They could reinvest that kind of money in 3 new young signings  with potential. The lad obviously wants to leave because he wants champions league football. In game I'd have snapped their hand off.

[Weston]

16 hours ago, XaW said:

That is point two. You can't have impossible to offer, and absurd negotiating at the same time since there will be no negotiating if there is no offer. Is this clear enough?

I never said that. An AI manager should be able to say a player is not for sale, and then they should be able to reject or counter with something ridiculous when you submit an offer. Or, if your offer is high enough, they should also be able to then decide the player is sellable after all. I don't understand what's controversial about this.

16 hours ago, XaW said:

But that value is by no means the same for a selling club and a buying club. Even if the objective value of a player is £60m, the selling club might not want to sell him for £100m

And here you're just rephrasing what I've said. The transfer value that the game shows for a player is not what you or they think, it's what a neutral third party thinks, a la Transfermarkt in real life, to give just one example of a voice in the market that dictates market value. The price tag a club sets and the market value are different and should both be shown side by side.

16 hours ago, XaW said:

So I don't really know why you would want even another place to see this?

My point is is that I *don't* want the player value column to be a place to see this willingness to sell, that should stay in its own column. A huge part of the game is sorting through lists of players, and that is often done by ascending/descending the column that contains player value. When a player's value is deleted from this column and replaced with the selling club's feelings about his availability (ie "not for sale"), which is not what that column should be used for, it ruins the sortability and makes searching for players unnecessarily difficult. It would be a very easy fix to undo this.

16 hours ago, XaW said:

why the outrage?

16 hours ago, XaW said:

Either you don't understand what I mean, or you are being deliberately obtuse.

I wouldn't say I'm outraged or being obtuse, I'm just discussing a feature that could be improved and am confused by your points. Not sure why you're being a bit combative about it.

16 hours ago, XaW said:

I think this would just be screen clutter. The game is hard enough to grasp for new players as it is, why have two price tags and confuse even more?

On the contrary, I think this being spelled out more clearly would make things much more easier to understand for new players, not that what new players think should necessarily be the end all be all on feature addition regardless. And again, they're not two price tags, they're market value and the asking price which are different - the way you keep incorrectly conflating them clearly indicates how crucial it is for them to be differentiated better.

For example, I wouldn't frame it this way visually, but below is how these two different data points (market value and what the club actually sold the player for) are juxtaposed in Transfermarkt. It's important context, though in game the value would stay as a range as opposed to an exact decimal, more often than not.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Weston

[Weston]

15 hours ago, DP said:

A player can have an approximate value regardless of whether you want to sell him or not - the two things can coexist. 
 

Are you trying to say there’s any player in the world you - or someone - couldn’t give an approximate value on based on the market? I know it’s not a science and it may not be what the club are willing to accept but you can broadly place every player into a category for how much they are ‘worth’ based on the current market. 
 

At the moment the game is saying ‘Declan Rice’s value? Oh he’s not for sale’. It’s answering the wrong question. He has a market value based on someone’s opinion. 
 

I get the way the game is currently set up, the ‘value’ is a range of what the club will sell him for but older (very old) versions of CM/FM were not like this. Shearer and Ronaldo were ‘valued’ by the game at £15m. Were they for sale though? No. 

15 hours ago, DP said:

Another way to judge how good the player potentially is - we need little cues like this in the game as we don’t have an immersive media or see him directly on the training ground. 
 

Like I said, it was done that way in CM2 and seemed to work well. 

This is precisely it.

It's not just that it's wrong, it makes searching for players a logistical nightmare when you can no longer accurately sort by the value column.

15 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

There's enough already to tell how good a player is. You can see a player's attributes, your scouts will tell you how good he his and give you a scout report on his personality, hidden attributes etc. Analysts can also get involved in telling you how good a player is. I don't see what market value adds to this.

Because, as @DPimplied, if one is looking for players to scout, one would often use the value as a cue on which might be the better ones to spend the scouting budget on learning more about.

[DP]

Searching by the value column was one of those little FM/CM pleasures. Instantly get a glance of the big hitters and best players in the game. 
 

Not having that erodes a little bit of what FM is. Some of us see these features as sacred. 

[Weston]

This Antony deal that's just happened is a great illustration of how this should work:

In FM you would see a market value of 35m (pulled from Transfermarkt just for reference) that you can find by sorting the value column.

Alongside that, the club would indicate that the player is "not for sale," because they don't want to sell him (at least not without an exorbitant fee). But this would NOT paper over the market value that exists regardless.

And then, Man Utd's 100m offer would be accepted by the club, even though they said he was "not for sale," in part because of how saying this successfully played hardball and used their leverage to jack up the price.

Being able to see the market value helps contextualize the situation and inform you on how much your silly money offer would likely need to be to come in high enough above the market value to be accepted by a club not looking to sell without an unreasonable fee.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Weston

[Icy]

What I wish is the opposite, a way for humans to set players not for sale as the AI does, so you won't get low bids all the time for them.

[Weston]

10 hours ago, Icy said:

What I wish is the opposite, a way for humans to set players not for sale as the AI does, so you won't get low bids all the time for them.

You can already set it so that all bids under a certain amount get automatically rejected.