How do you defend with a 3412?

[backpocket]

I'm having some difficulties with the 3412, basically any attack that goes wide makes it really hard to win the ball back. 

This is my formation. I don't have any PIs on any player.

For context, my previous tactic was a 3412 but with wide midfielders instead of wing backs. Really aggressive and the goals poured in, but I could get 5-0'd as easily as I could score 5 myself in another game. So I've tried to change it to a slightly more solid variation, though it feels way too passive sometimes.

An example of one of the issues is below. Instead of my LWB (No 3) closing down, my CM (No 23) went there.

My LWB might have been tracking the opposition's No 2, which is fair enough but...

Now my left CM is on the wing and my wingbacks are tucked in really narrow. So instead of having my wingbacks closing down and the 4 defenders playing narrow, they decided to go to a back 5 against 2 players. 

As you can see above, the opposition FB has the ball and all the time in the world to cross it far post, which led to a goal from them.

In that situation, ideally, I'd prefer the outside CB on the far side to challenge it. I don't know why my middle and outside CB are marking the same player when I don't have OI's on.

I know it's probably a weakness in the formation, but even on positive it gets really passive sometimes. I've tried to solve it by either increasing the line of engagement, or make us defend wider, or close down more or a variation of all three. Though sometimes my solution seems spotty at best.

It could be my midfielders, as I got players who are more anticipation/ball players, so they might not make the tackle once in the area. Should I look for more ball winner type players here? Or make my WB man mark the wingers? I'm out of ideas. 

Thanks in advance!

[Experienced Defender]

Your formation is narrow - i.e. only wing-backs without wingers - so I assume that's why the LCM stepped out to press the opposition fullback (basically acting as a sort of "substitute" for the "missing" winger). Keep also in mind that in zonal marking players apply pressing/marking/tackling on the opposition player that has entered their zone of defensive responsibility. So in this specific situation, the game (ME) probably recognized the area into which the oppo fullback made his run as the CM's zone of responsibility. 

Counter-press may also have contributed to such behavior to some degree, so you can try the tactic without counter-press and compare. 

As for other defensive issues, my first piece of advice would be to switch your outer CBs to defend duty (instead of stopper). Because they need to hold their defensive position, given that your third CB is a libero and your system has no DM + you play with a high D-line coupled with a high team mentality. 

Last but not least, your right flank is a bit too conservative attacking-wise. With a holding CM in the midfield and an F9 up front, it would make sense for the RWB to be a bit more attack-minded (either by switching his duty to attack or via the overlap right team instruction). 

[bibird.]

8 hours ago, backpocket said:

I'm having some difficulties with the 3412, basically any attack that goes wide makes it really hard to win the ball back. 

This is my formation. I don't have any PIs on any player.

For context, my previous tactic was a 3412 but with wide midfielders instead of wing backs. Really aggressive and the goals poured in, but I could get 5-0'd as easily as I could score 5 myself in another game. So I've tried to change it to a slightly more solid variation, though it feels way too passive sometimes.

An example of one of the issues is below. Instead of my LWB (No 3) closing down, my CM (No 23) went there.

My LWB might have been tracking the opposition's No 2, which is fair enough but...

Now my left CM is on the wing and my wingbacks are tucked in really narrow. So instead of having my wingbacks closing down and the 4 defenders playing narrow, they decided to go to a back 5 against 2 players. 

As you can see above, the opposition FB has the ball and all the time in the world to cross it far post, which led to a goal from them.

In that situation, ideally, I'd prefer the outside CB on the far side to challenge it. I don't know why my middle and outside CB are marking the same player when I don't have OI's on.

I know it's probably a weakness in the formation, but even on positive it gets really passive sometimes. I've tried to solve it by either increasing the line of engagement, or make us defend wider, or close down more or a variation of all three. Though sometimes my solution seems spotty at best.

It could be my midfielders, as I got players who are more anticipation/ball players, so they might not make the tackle once in the area. Should I look for more ball winner type players here? Or make my WB man mark the wingers? I'm out of ideas. 

Thanks in advance!

In fairness, that does look like smart movement by the No 2. Your WB is pegged by him, forcing the midfielder out and then you’re overloaded on the flank.

I’ve used a similar formation recently. If I recall correctly, I had my WBs PIs set to Close Down More. That way they would normally be the ones to engage in those deeper positions. Could be worth a try.

Edited February 26, 2021 by bibird.

[zyfon5]

With a formation like that your only option to defend is to press very high up the pitch to prevent the opposition team setting up an attack against you because the defensive shape is not good for a 3412.

First, you have three players up front that can shut all the immediate passing options making it extremely difficult for the other team to play out of defence. Plus the wingbacks pressing against the full back, as soon as the opposition GK plays the ball to any defender they risk immediately losing the ball.

Next, the two midfielder needs to be players that have excellent stamina and work rate and decent defensively to cover a large area in the midfield and win second balls when the opposition plays the ball long. You do not need offensive firepower from the midfield due to how aggressive the formation is.

The three CB will be crucial to your defence. The two side CB will need to be very good at defending as they will often be in a 1 on 1 situation against attackers. They are also expected to cover gaps left behind by the two wingbacks. The central CB will need to be aerially dominant to win headers and clear any danger from crosses.

I think your tactics are largely fine just need to change it to press higher and change the libero to a more conservative defender.

 

[backpocket]

22 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Last but not least, your right flank is a bit too conservative attacking-wise. With a holding CM in the midfield and an F9 up front, it would make sense for the RWB to be a bit more attack-minded (either by switching his duty to attack or via the overlap right team instruction). 

This was probably a leftover when Bellerin was still in the club. He had the gets further forward PPM so was practically at the opponents byline even with a support duty. Might just swap the duties for my left and right midfielders and forwards, as my LWB has gets further forward too.

Anyhow, I tried a few things and found that OI’s to always close down wingers and fullbacks did the behaviour I wanted from my WB. 

Changed the CB from stopper to defend, though I’ll watch a few games as I like seeing them step up to challenge during counters, since we don’t have a DM. 

13 hours ago, zyfon5 said:

I think your tactics are largely fine just need to change it to press higher and change the libero to a more conservative defender.

Interestingly, the BPD on cover duty steps up into the def midfield spot to make that triangle in midfield, guess the libero isn’t necessary.

Thanks guys!

[jdmk88]

With 3 at the back, I find you have one of two options:

Dominate possession with a high line and high press, thus not allowing the opposing wingers and full backs to double up on your wing backs. Also suggest the attacking mid centre on a support role, allowing him to drop into midfield, which allows your two centre mids to operate with more width. 

Or, give up the wings.

If you're a weaker team trying to play someone on the counter...close down less, keep your shape and force the opposition outside. This works well if your centre backs dominate in the air. It invites the cross and ends in lots of counter attacks. 

[Obaaa]

Get those full backs pushing much higher up defensively - things like closing down more, man marking the opposition full backs with them, using attack duty instead of support, playing them as MR/ML if capable, should all encourage this. 3412 has enough defensive support from central areas to move over to cover wide areas if your intentions to press higher with the full-backs, AMC and STs fails. 

[rouflaquettes31]

Hi!

I Had the same problem with my 3 CB formation.

My solution was to switch the wingback to midfield line (Right midifielder and Left Midfielder). But it involves some new issues.

 

So, the solution to set opposite instructions to wide players is a good one?

Do you set a more urgent pressing?

 

Thanks!