Match Preparation training effect

[Cassius]

Dear fellow managers,

Quick question here on a topic that confuse me a bit. I thought Match Preparation training ("Defensive Shape", "Attacking Movement", etc) affected only the "next game" to be played.
However, when having a look at the match preparation focus in the Training Section, the game seems to indicate a single match prep training can help not only the very next game but also the following one (?).

Below an example : I've trained Def.Shape & Att.Movements before the Swansea game, but the match prep field indicates that the effect is still active for the next game against Doncaster :




I am not expert in training nor did I work for SI, so a few questions here :
- Is this normal ?
- If so, how long does a the effect of a match preparation training last ?
- Also, does the bonus effect decays ? (eg : very strong bonus against Swansea, lower effect against Doncaster, minimal or no effect against Sunderland)

Any insight is welcomed !

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by Cassius

[Experienced Defender]

@Seb Wassell definitely knows this better than me, so hopefully he is not too busy atm 

[Cassius]

Il y a 11 heures, Experienced Defender a dit :

@Seb Wassell definitely knows this better than me, so hopefully he is not too busy atm 

Thanks ED, I thought about @ him in the light of the lack of reply to this thread hehe
Seems like a very obscure question for others too!

[Seb Wassell]

Should be next match only, may be a visual bug. Worth logging for me please 

[TehGoatLord]

I've actually noticed this on FM20 as well. 

[jmpaparone]

On 01/12/2020 at 14:33, Seb Wassell said:

Should be next match only, may be a visual bug. Worth logging for me please 

Thanks. And i have a direct related question : does match preparation sessions stack ? I mean for example, if you do 2 sessions of movement improvement, will it give you twice the bonus that you would have get with only 1 session ?

Edited December 9, 2020 by jmpaparone
my terrible orthograph in english

[HUNT3R]

1 minute ago, jmpaparone said:

Thanks. And i have a direct related question : does match preparation sessions stack ? I mean for example, if you do 2 sessions of movement improvement, will it give you twice the bonus that you will get if you had only do 1 session ?

No. 1x Attacking Movement will have the same effect as 2x Attacking Movement. You can 'stack' different sessions though. For example, 1x Att Movement and 1x Def Positioning before a match will both 'count' toward that match.

[zemaniano85]

Just now, HUNT3R said:

No. 1x Attacking Movement will have the same effect as 2x Attacking Movement. You can 'stack' different sessions though. For example, 1x Att Movement and 1x Def Positioning before a match will both 'count' toward that match.

I have an example to clarify, if I use att mov before a match in 1 training week, will that fall in the 2nd match too, in the same week?

[HUNT3R]

2 minutes ago, zemaniano85 said:

I have an example to clarify, if I use att mov before a match in 1 training week, will that fall in the 2nd match too, in the same week?

No. It's in effect for the next match only. Seb said as much above.

[jmpaparone]

12 minutes ago, zemaniano85 said:

I have an example to clarify, if I use att mov before a match in 1 training week, will that fall in the 2nd match too, in the same week?

Seb answered no even if there is a visual bug (from FM19) suggesting that yes in the training summary. He may confirm that.

14 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

No. 1x Attacking Movement will have the same effect as 2x Attacking Movement. You can 'stack' different sessions though. For example, 1x Att Movement and 1x Def Positioning before a match will both 'count' toward that match.

Thanks Hunt3r. Do you know if the focus on the 100% attribute of these session, is "weighted" by the work on tactical familiarity ? I mean, in the others traditionnal sessions (not match prep), you only work on attributes and not on tactical familiarity. To be fair, it should give more attributes improvement than a match preparation session. Otherwise "match prep" seems a bit too strong, and can be abused on every schedule (bonus attributes for next match + role training +tactics).

Edited December 9, 2020 by jmpaparone

[zemaniano85]

3 minutes ago, jmpaparone said:

Seb answered no even if there is a visual bug (from FM19) suggesting that yes in the training summary. I may confirm that.

Thanks Hunt3r. Do you know if the focus on the 100% attribute of these session, is "weighted" by the work on tactical familiarity ? I mean, in the others traditionnal sessions (not match prep), you only work on attributes and not on tactical familiarity. To be fair, it should give more attributes improvement than a match preparation session. Otherwise "match prep" seems a bit too strong, and can be abused on every schedule (bonus attributes for next match + role training +tactics).

Thanks, in fact he didnt confirm that, thats why I further asked.

[HUNT3R]

6 minutes ago, jmpaparone said:

Thanks Hunt3r. Do you know if the focus on the 100% attribute of these session, is "weighted" by the work on tactical familiarity ? I mean, in the others traditionnal sessions (not match prep), you only work on attributes and not on tactical familiarity. To be fair, it should give more attributes improvement than a match preparation session. Otherwise "match prep" seems a bit too strong, and can be abused on every schedule (bonus attributes for next match + role training +tactics).

I'm not 100% sure what you're asking, but it shouldn't be possible to 'game' the system anymore. Not to a level where you'd call it abusing the system anyway. It's something SI have been working on - getting rid of min/maxing. That includes changing the game but also exactly how much information is put out there.

 

[jmpaparone]

"Abusing" was not the good word. I meant that match preparation could be overpowered in developing attribute, because it permitted to work on a lot of things easily (bonus + attributes + tactic).

To confirm or infirm that feeling, i wanted to focus on the attributes gained from match preparation sessions. Indeed i saw people using them not to prepare a match, but to develop attribute. using the fact that these sessions focus on role attributes, it is effective to develop well players. For example :

Offensive moves = 60% of the work benefits to offensive player role attributes + 20% role GK attributes +  20% role defenders attributes

Defensive sharp = 60% of the work benefits to defensive player role attributes, + 20% role GK attributes +  20% role offensive players attributes

By using 3 of each sessions in your schedule, you cover a lot of the players development needed on the role. So i wondered if the amount of attributes gained from these sessions, was lower than the amount that you you gain from usual session such as Ground Defending. For example :

Ground defending = 60% for some defending attributes + 20% role GK attributes +  20% role offensive players attributes.

 

So my question is : are the attributes gain from role training in match preparation session less important than the ones from Ground defending session ? 20% of the session in each case but what about the gain of attributes in itself.

I put them in bold type for making my thoughts more clear

Thanks

[HUNT3R]

23 minutes ago, jmpaparone said:

"Abusing" was not the good word. I meant that match preparation could be overpowered in developing attribute, because it permitted to work on a lot of things easily (bonus + attributes + tactic).

To confirm or infirm that feeling, i wanted to focus on the attributes gained from match preparation sessions. Indeed i saw people using them not to prepare a match, but to develop attribute. using the fact that these sessions focus on role attributes, it is effective to develop well players. For example :

Offensive moves = 60% of the work benefits to offensive player role attributes + 20% role GK attributes +  20% role defenders attributes

Defensive sharp = 60% of the work benefits to defensive player role attributes, + 20% role GK attributes +  20% role offensive players attributes

By using 3 of each sessions in your schedule, you cover a lot of the players development needed on the role. So i wondered if the amount of attributes gained from these sessions, was lower than the amount that you you gain from usual session such as Ground Defending. For example :

Ground defending = 60% for some defending attributes + 20% role GK attributes +  20% role offensive players attributes.

 

So my question is : are the attributes gain from role training in match preparation session less important than the ones from Ground defending session ? 20% of the session in each case but what about the gain of attributes in itself.

I put them in bold type for making my thoughts more clear

Thanks

Tbh, see my previous post, but that's of course, IMHO. To me, The question you've posted is a min/maxing scenario - the type of thing that SI isn't looking to encourage.

I would assume that a match prep schedule has more focus on the match prep than actual attributes. The schedules do mention 'individual roles' and it's part of a host (of which this session only dedicates 20% to) of secondary effects, so I don't expect much in the way of effects here.

I would simplify this instead, if I were you. If you want to focus on the next match, then do your match prep. If you want medium to long term increases, use 'normal' training sessions.

[jmpaparone]

Thanks, I pointed the 20% part to put it in parallel of Ground Defending session (cause it is the same number), but the main part of "Offensive Move" is a 60% for offensive player roles, so it could be massive impact in developing players.

Except if, as you said, a match preparation is focused at 80% (for example) on match preparation / tactics / etc, and only at 20% on attribute. It should be clarify to build the best development strategy (and i am not looking for a trick, it is just explaining the content of the training sessions, thats why i summoned (xD) Seb Wassell to help us with the answer, no secret or exploit searching here, thanks).

[HUNT3R]

4 minutes ago, jmpaparone said:

Thanks, I pointed the 20% part to put it in parallel of Ground Defending session (cause it is the same number), but the main part of "Offensive Move" is a 60% for offensive player roles, so it could be massive impact in developing players.

Except if, as you said, a match preparation is focused at 80% (for example) on match preparation / tactics / etc, and only at 20% on attribute. It should be clarify to build the best development strategy (and i am not looking for a trick, it is just explaining the content of the training sessions, thats why i summoned (xD) Seb Wassell to help us with the answer, no secret or exploit searching here, thanks).

Yeah, no worries at all. Up to Seb if he wants to answer or not. It may go into the territory of giving out too much specific info.

 

55 minutes ago, jmpaparone said:

Offensive moves = 60% of the work benefits to offensive player role attributes + 20% role GK attributes +  20% role defenders attributes

Defensive sharp = 60% of the work benefits to defensive player role attributes, + 20% role GK attributes +  20% role offensive players attributes

By using 3 of each sessions in your schedule, you cover a lot of the players development needed on the role. So i wondered if the amount of attributes gained from these sessions, was lower than the amount that you you gain from usual session such as Ground Defending. For example :

Ground defending = 60% for some defending attributes + 20% role GK attributes +  20% role offensive players attributes

I assume you mean Defensive Shape?

In a Defensive Shape session, attackers have their 20% divided into Upcoming Match, Tactical Familiarity, Team Cohesion and Attributes.

Ground Defence has the full 20% dedicated to role attributes. for attackers. So you should see more in the medium to long term in terms of attributes.

IMO, here, short term Match Prep will be 'king' but over the medium to long term, the ground defence type sessions would pay off. Or combine both? That's the beauty of the system as it is. There isn't a right or wrong.

[jmpaparone]

The way you see it, is the fair way, and i hope it is the real one. Let's hope Seb can confirme.

Yeah i meant defensive shape.

I ran some simulations of training for a whole season, with "abusing" of match preparations sessions, and it didn't give better results than using usual sessions (where you can find role training as well).

I'm trying different combinations to find "the best" for developping youth (if you have link to similar studies, feel free to transmit ;). As far i see at the moment, training can have some optimization but no abuse. And the complementary key, it's to give some time to play in better division than U19. It can be in the first team, or by making them available for the B team when it is in a better division. I found a boost in mental attributes (and it makes sense coz they gain some maturity). Still running other tests.

[jmpaparone]

I have one last question about the strenght of the bonus given for the upcoming match by match prep session.

Do we have any idea on the strenght of this bonus ?

I mean, is this something like 1 attribute point in the specifics domains quoted in the bonus ? More or less ? Something fixed or it can go on a random range, for example : from plus X% of the attributes to plus 2X% of the attributes ?

We have an annoucement of this bonus but no idea about how big is it, approximatively.

Thanks

[jmpaparone]

Maybe @Seb Wassell could give us a clue about the strenght of this bonus ? In order to judge the opportunity of choosing a normal training session in stead of a match preparation session, it would be good to have an idea on the bonus strenght. Thanks a lot.

[Seb Wassell]

On 18/12/2020 at 18:12, jmpaparone said:

Maybe @Seb Wassell could give us a clue about the strenght of this bonus ? In order to judge the opportunity of choosing a normal training session in stead of a match preparation session, it would be good to have an idea on the bonus strenght. Thanks a lot.

It's not something that can be easily quantified. It does not give you a simple +10% to finishing, for example. And if it did, we probably wouldn't give that away 

[jmpaparone]

I understand that you can't tell precisely what it gives or not. It is probably a % of something global.

I don't want know exactly what is it, but it would be fair to have an idea on any numbers of the gain. Is it close to +1%, or +10% ? It makes a huge difference and we have no information. I mean, we know that our players are progressing from 12,8 to 13,2 in finishing through training (a very accurate information), but we can't have a clue of what impact will have a match preparation session, in terms of result. It is a bit unbalanced as information access

[Thirsk1]

On 02/12/2020 at 00:33, Seb Wassell said:

Should be next match only, may be a visual bug. Worth logging for me please 

Sorry to necro this thread but has this been confirmed to be just a visual bug? Because even FM22 shows that match preparation effect lasting 2 weeks   

As shown in the screenshot, in the bottom left corner, even though I haven't trained them in the current week (teamwork, defensive shape, attacking movement, attacking corners and set piece delivery were trained in the previous week).

Really hoping someone can get back to me because I would hate to be doing it wrong all this time because of a bug that seemingly hasn't been fixed since 2020!

[Cloud9]

2 hours ago, Thirsk1 said:

Sorry to necro this thread but has this been confirmed to be just a visual bug? Because even FM22 shows that match preparation effect lasting 2 weeks   

As shown in the screenshot, in the bottom left corner, even though I haven't trained them in the current week (teamwork, defensive shape, attacking movement, attacking corners and set piece delivery were trained in the previous week).

Really hoping someone can get back to me because I would hate to be doing it wrong all this time because of a bug that seemingly hasn't been fixed since 2020!

Sounds like a visual bug they haven't fixed.

[HUNT3R]

Can confirm that Seb is correct. It's only for the upcoming match, as the session itself indicates. The training screen showing something else is an UI issue.

[Thirsk1]

On 27/02/2023 at 15:48, HUNT3R said:

Can confirm that Seb is correct. It's only for the upcoming match, as the session itself indicates. The training screen showing something else is an UI issue.

Thank you for such a fast response! I thought perhaps the session description itself was poorly worded and the effect actually lasts longer than a single match because no way would a bug of this magnitude be still in the game 2 years on!

But guess I was wrong  I wonder how many coaches have been misled over the years..

EDIT: In matches, the assistant manager recommends that I 'Play for Set Pieces' due to our work on the training ground paying off. Which is great and all, except for the fact that I trained them in set pieces at least a week prior to the match...which leads me to believe that it's not simply a visual bug. The fact that these recommendations show up during matches and how the training preparation section has occupied a large and readily discernible area of the training page for numerous years has me convinced that either it's an unintended bug that provides the boost in subsequent matches up to 14 days later, or dare I say, a result of miscommunication within the dev team whereby not all were made aware of its final design. After all, had it been unambiguously confirmed by a dev in 2020, it surely would have been fixed by now. I could well and truly be wrong so let this be some food for thought for those who may end up here with the same question in future.

Edited March 5, 2023 by Thirsk1