Why son heung min's rating is so low, comparing his level and performance.

[samdiatmh]

On 28/10/2020 at 20:28, herne79 said:

In my latest West Ham save I won the PL title first season with just one personnel change (I bought the transfer listed Thilo Kehrer (starting CA below 140).  The vast majority of the rest of the team has a CA between 130 and 140.  There are only 4 players above 140CA, with the highest being 150.

...

The hidden CA value is not - and never has been - a measure of how "good" a player is.

 

and that's the main issue for me

most people (like some in this thread) are married to the idea that 170CA+ is required to be somewhat competitive, when it isn't the case at all

 

I still remember a 108CA winger (this was back in something like FM12) tearing up trees for my CL-winning side, even though my assistant rated him at "decent league 1 level player"

despite only having 108CA, he was slower than molasses, but was beasty over a dead ball, and knew how to whip crosses in

 

"but their CA is too low" isn't a valid argument - I've had Matt Miazga go from NewYork to a PremierLeague title challenging starter (before he moved to Chelsea IRL), and he wasn't phased by it

their attributes are FAR more important than their CA is (a DC with 15 in tackling, marking and heading, with 13ish pace would put his CA around 80ish, but he'd more a capable prem starter - even though the AI wouldn't think so)
stop going "oh, he's good IRL, so deserves a 20", and actually take a look at how he performs in the game - I'd argue that he's probably slightly overrated given how missing he goes sometimes

 

edit: I'm pretty sure (and this probably speaks to my age) that some researchers used to go 135CA as a "decent Prem player", which really needs to be remembered here - like a call for 170CA is borderline GoldenBall winner (which he got nowhere near to as recently as last year)

Edited October 30, 2020 by samdiatmh

[FlorianAlbert9]

Again. 

No.

If your argument was right, we have such players (with low CA for the level they play) in starting database.

But no, we don't have them. 

In starting database we have players' CA set relying on the level they played.

So we NEVER had a starting player of a Champions League or Premier winner with low CA. 

So the database 'said' that for a certain level it need a certain CA

the AI 'said' that for a certain level need a certain CA

but then the ME allow a totally another thing that only human can directly take advantage of. 

And that for letting us (human) to win more easily. Cause it Is extremely easier to find a 120 level player that a 170.

That the problem.

 

(Of course i don't talking about little difference in CA also cause we have important attributes like continuity and important Matches that don't change CA)

 

So to prove i'm wrong, please find in any FM edition of the past 15 years a player starting in Champions League final that was set with low CA (in edition next the final)

Edited October 30, 2020 by FlorianAlbert9

[herne79]

30 minutes ago, FlorianAlbert9 said:

So to prove i'm wrong, please find in any FM edition of the past 15 years a player starting in Champions League final that was set with low CA (in edition next the final)

Nobody is denying that.

We've already said that if you just leave it up to the AI (because a human manager is managing a lower league team for example) that the usual elite suspects will battle it out for the Champions League, just like in real life, with all their large CA players.

55 minutes ago, FlorianAlbert9 said:

but then the ME allow a totally another thing that only human can directly take advantage of.

The ME doesn't "allow" anything.  The ME cannot tell the difference between a human and AI managed team.  It just takes the inputs from the AI and human managers and spits out a result.  That's all it does (at an extremely basic level).  The ME is neutral, it doesn't favour a human manager over an AI manager.

So to resolve this either a) the AI needs to improve or b) human managers need to be restricted in various aspects of the game (squad building, player management, tactics, match day strategy, training and so on) to only being able to do what the AI can do.  That's got nothing to do with the ME.  The ME's got 99 problems but this ain't one.

One of the reasons why human managers can "out think" the AI is because we are able to use player attributes (not CA) in much more creative and effective ways than any AI manager can.  This is why CA is not - and never has been - a measure of how good a player can be.  If the AI does look at CA (pure supposition, nobody other than SI know if the AI does or not - but bear in mind how much I sold Haller to PSG for in my previous post and he's not exactly swimming in CA) that's just one area where the AI is disadvantaged.

Is it "gamey" that we can do this?  Perhaps, but then it is just a game.  We'd need an AI with a brain the size of Deep Thought in order to compete .

 

[samdiatmh]

13 hours ago, FlorianAlbert9 said:

So to prove i'm wrong, please find in any FM edition of the past 15 years a player starting in Champions League final that was set with low CA (in edition next the final)

 

Alphonso Davies? 99.99% sure he started the most recent one, and starts FM20 with a 135CA and 155PA

but apparently he's useless

 

because Davies has numerous reported issues, we'll carry on

 

Pavard? - WorldCup Winner AND CL winner? CA 148 PA 168

Leandro Paredes? also started for PSG? CA 146

 

fine... we'll make the comparisons to Son,

Serge Gnabry? CA 157

Vinicius Jr? CA 143

Sadio Mane? FM18 CA 162

 

this "you need a 170CA to be competent" is absolutely ludicrous - or are you claiming that Tuchel/Flick are substandard managers

 

edit: as someone that also plays FM with a "build a top6-prem squad with 120m worth of talent in the first transfer window" I kind excel at this "ignore CA and look at attributes" stuff
will make it slightly harder for FM21, as the last FM I racked up reasonable hours on was FM16 (being 28 currently.. life-stuff takes priority over a video game)

Edited October 30, 2020 by samdiatmh

[FlorianAlbert9]

31 minuti fa, samdiatmh ha scritto:

 

Alphonso Davies? 99.99% sure he started the most recent one, and starts FM20 with a 135CA and 155PA

but apparently he's useless

 

because Davies has numerous reported issues, we'll carry on

 

Pavard? - WorldCup Winner AND CL winner? CA 148 PA 168

Leandro Paredes? also started for PSG? CA 146

 

fine... we'll make the comparisons to Son,

Serge Gnabry? CA 157

Vinicius Jr? CA 143

 

this "you need a 170CA to be competent" is absolutely ludicrous - or are you claiming that Tuchel/Flick are substandard managers

1) I said the the edition after the final. So we look at Davies at FM21. 

If he will have <140 CA then, you'll be right.

 

2) same. Pavard won this year, so we have to look at home next edition. 

(And he didnt play the final)

Said that:

148 It is a very good CA among better player. 

It Is not like to have 148 CA in a team of <140 CA players. (Or have all players below 140). 

 

 

Edited October 30, 2020 by FlorianAlbert9

[FlorianAlbert9]

2 ore fa, samdiatmh ha scritto:

 

 

edit: as someone that also plays FM with a "build a top6-prem squad with 120m worth of talent in the first transfer window" I kind excel at this "ignore CA and look at attributes" stuff
will make it slightly harder for FM21, as the last FM I racked up reasonable hours on was FM16 (being 28 currently.. life-stuff takes priority over a video game)

It isn't your ability. 

It is an issue in the game system. 

Its purpose Is to make game easy cause it is easier find several low CA player then 1 great one.

Me too i like build a totally new team in 2/3 season. 

It's funny and in a first moment i'm feel like a king. 

Then i realize that i pick up players that wont play neither in the others' reserve (and in fact even if they win best of season award, when i sell them, they attract only lower division team) and that ruins the similutation. 

[zyfon5]

20 hours ago, FlorianAlbert9 said:

Again. 

No.

If your argument was right, we have such players (with low CA for the level they play) in starting database.

But no, we don't have them. 

In starting database we have players' CA set relying on the level they played.

So we NEVER had a starting player of a Champions League or Premier winner with low CA. 

So the database 'said' that for a certain level it need a certain CA

the AI 'said' that for a certain level need a certain CA

but then the ME allow a totally another thing that only human can directly take advantage of. 

And that for letting us (human) to win more easily. Cause it Is extremely easier to find a 120 level player that a 170.

That the problem.

 

(Of course i don't talking about little difference in CA also cause we have important attributes like continuity and important Matches that don't change CA)

 

So to prove i'm wrong, please find in any FM edition of the past 15 years a player starting in Champions League final that was set with low CA (in edition next the final)

What is your definition of low CA? Lower than 170?

[santy001]

@FlorianAlbert9 at this point I can only apologise you aren't able to sell your players.

The point you're making, or think your making, about CA has long since gone from coherent or having a basis in reality. There isn't much more to say because just engaging in discussing it any further at this point is meaningless nonsense.

[FlorianAlbert9]

2 ore fa, santy001 ha scritto:

@FlorianAlbert9 at this point I can only apologise you aren't able to sell your players.

The point you're making, or think your making, about CA has long since gone from coherent or having a basis in reality. There isn't much more to say because just engaging in discussing it any further at this point is meaningless nonsense.

Again missing the point. 

You all always look at the game like the human is the only player. Win, no matter how. 

For me if the game set a 'rule' that AI have to follow, if the human can avoid that rule, it's not fair. 

The selling matter Is an aspect. 

I haven't problems to sell players. 

I can easily sell a player of U19 team that don't play a single match for 10x and more the value to a bigger team.

But a team regular of the same age that was the best of the year in his position if has a lower CA will attract offer only in lower division. 

I made a test:

GK, 19yo, won best GK of the league award. 

I terminate his contract. 

He finished in a obscure team two division lower.

My rivals wants the other my GK, 20yo, that i never use. 

Cause the 20yo has more CA and PA.

Edited October 31, 2020 by FlorianAlbert9

[FlorianAlbert9]

4 ore fa, zyfon5 ha scritto:

What is your definition of low CA? Lower than 170?

An all team of players with <150 to win* CL o Premier. 

Or a player that human use like regular with <130 Always in a top winning team.

 

*I mean win constantly, not a one time

[santy001]

I can only suggest you log some bug reports then @FlorianAlbert9. It's not how the game plays for me, and based on how others are posting like Herne, for them either.

I can't do much about your imaginary interpretation of the rules the AI has to follow. The AI utilises its scouts and coaching staff for a perceived view on player ability and potential, just as any human player does. Based on how you post, I assume this isn't how you play the game, but then if you play the game in unintended ways, you get unintended outcomes.

Human players have an advantage in that they can assess a player and laser focus in on their strengths better than the AI can. This is sadly a limitation of AI in FM, the gaming industry, and software industry more broadly speaking. 

[themadsheep2001]

Closing this as OPs has had his question answered, and this 'discussion' that's followed isn't really going anywhere