Syrup & Honey - A tactical discussion

[Cleon]

They mostly are played into space on FM I found.

[Cleon]

I've seen them played between 2 central defenders for my striker to run onto.

[heathxxx]

Some very good points raised with the TTB settings here.

When you look at things realistically, settings for things such as TTB are basically common sense. Doing it from wider positions can often lose you the ball, unless you've got the absolute best players that can literally do anything well.

Strikers don't need to TTB, because you really want them to be on the end of them.

Sometimes though, if I'm brave enough and have centre-backs with the right abilities, I may have them set on TTB. NOT recommended to try at lower levels though!

[kolobok]

I found that if you play with 3 DCs and WBs with no barrows, AI often use the following combination: one of the STs moves a little deeper, gets the ball, turns and passes it between DCL® and WB, where a winger picks it up and either cuts inside or crosses. It looks more like basketball - exactly the same move as if center gets the ball and passes it to the open shooter cornrer. That sort of through balls I had in mind when I said I want my ST to try it. Similarly, if a winger picked up the ball near center line, he could try trough ball between FB and DC for a pacey ST. But that's more real life example.

[jaycar]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cleon:

I've seen them played between 2 central defenders for my striker to run onto. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was always my understanding of what a through ball would be.

Beardsley was lethal playing those to Rush

[ron.e]

Cleon - I'm really enjoying your thread. I also like the formation you've got. it's interesting that you focus on indiviual settings rather than team. Is that the way to go in 08 or is that just what you wanted to do?

[Cleon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ron.e:

Cleon - I'm really enjoying your thread. I also like the formation you've got. it's interesting that you focus on indiviual settings rather than team. Is that the way to go in 08 or is that just what you wanted to do? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you want to get the best out of a team then you have to go individually. If your someone whos content, then you dont have to.

[Aquaplex]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cleon:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ron.e:

Cleon - I'm really enjoying your thread. I also like the formation you've got. it's interesting that you focus on indiviual settings rather than team. Is that the way to go in 08 or is that just what you wanted to do? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you want to get the best out of a team then you have to go individually. If your someone whos content, then you dont have to. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cleon, could you talk about things you tweak in game? Do you tweak team settings such as tempo, width, time waisting, d-line or individual settings? The only individual tweaks that come to mind during game for me is forward runs on fullbacks. I really like this formation but i'm having an absolute horrid time trying to figure out what to tweak during games. I have looked over the FAQ thread and the bible one but it seems most of those threads for tweaking are somewhat obsolete since they were posted back in 2006. Please advise, and thank you again. Also, one more thing, if you're using this for a big team like Arsenal, would you setup your individual passing differently since the only thing i have changed were more creative freedom and more attacking fullbacks. Thank You again for any helpful information, direction where i can read/learn more about tweaking.

[Cleon]

I cant say what I tweak and what I dont. Because it all depends on whats happening in a game. If I see someone being caught in possession I may increase his pass to a more direct style. Or vice versa is I see him giving the ball away regular.

If a player is being caught out of position I'll change his mentality or closing down.

All things like that.

[lyw_85]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cleon:

I cant say what I tweak and what I dont. Because it all depends on whats happening in a game. If I see someone being caught in possession I may increase his pass to a more direct style. Or vice versa is I see him giving the ball away regular.

If a player is being caught out of position I'll change his mentality or closing down.

All things like that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

On average, how many times in a match do u press pause and make these small changes?

I am trying to do this tinkering style, but I'm not sure if I'm doing it too much or too little.

[Cleon]

I pause all the time just to check things are alright. I dont always change things though, only if its something that could cause a problem if not. There is games were I dont change anything, then the next it might be 10 changes I make.

Its all about visuals really and what you see.

[kolobok]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I cant say what I tweak and what I dont. Because it all depends on whats happening in a game. If I see someone being caught in possession I may increase his pass to a more direct style. Or vice versa is I see him giving the ball away regular. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, you suggest that if someone constantly cannot find passing option, changing his passing to more direct will help? What about accuracy? I understand that you think that it's better to give ball away far from own area than close to it, but still - maybe it's better to find a way to offer more passing options (e.g. make MCd to come closer to defs, etc)?

[ruz13]

DanTheMan999 what skin is that? sorry for the irrelevant question guys...

[lyw_85]

Hi Cleon, you focus on individual settings in this tactic. What happens when you need to for example, defend deep? Or if you want to grab a late goal?

Do you change every individual settings?

Sliders like D-Line and Tempo are linked to mentality and passing style. I was wondering, since your players have differing mentalities and playing style, how do you determine their D-Line and Tempo?

If you got to change your D-Line and tempo, do you have every individual settings to suit it?

Thanks.

[Aquaplex]

Cleon, i have couple questions for you. First off, thanks for this discussion thread, i believe i have learned a lot just from trying to play with this formation and try to make it suited for my players. I play with a big team Arsenal, my questions are as follows. If you were to set this up for a big team like Arsenal, would u allow for more attacking mentality with more creative freedom and more players with long shots? I have found that when i added more long shots to players and added more mentality the whole team didnt play as well, they lost some of that cohesiveness as a football team. Care to elaborate on what changes you would make if you were to make this for a big team? Individually that is. Thank You for your wonderful input as always.

[skioks2]

hi Cleon i'm a great fan of your tactic, i have made a new tactic, following your indications. I'm a manager of Sampdoria 5th years the team are in difficult.

my problems is when the oppisite team is closed in defense,I don't succeed in creating many occasion.

This is my result

very good defense!!!

this is my tactic, is the same of yuors thanks

sorry for my english, i'm italian

[Valesh]

Cleon, could you elped me with some about general instructions to team, i know they deppend on opponent and that you change them during the match, but you must have a preferred setup to start the match with, at least in most of the games.

So the ones i would like your opinion is Tempo, Width, time Wasting and Defensive line.

Im ot sure what to use, slow tempo or quick.

In Width i was thinking about using narrow, but would like to ear how do you like.

time Wasting and Defensive line i guees they depend on how we like to see the team playing, so for me time wasting would be rarely and defensive line im not quick sure, because with 3CB and the wingers i guess i dont need to have the defense so deep, should i let it normal?

Another thing, you use target man or playmaker? and thick play offside and or counter attack?

Would really appreciate your help here, thanks.

[Chinaski]

and why the wbs are set to man marking?

[jaycar]

Cleon, do you still have that save? And if so any chance of uploading it?

[Rashidi]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chinaski:

and why the wbs are set to man marking? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't think its set to manmarking..he would have set it on zonal tight.

[jaycar]

The WB's are set to man marking Rash, the right sided one tight marks.

Chinaski, cleon explains why in the third post, page 1

[Chinaski]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jaycar:

The WB's are set to man marking Rash, the right sided one tight marks.

Chinaski, cleon explains why in the third post, page 1 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

thanks mate!

what do you do when you have to hold your lead?

[lam]

Chinaski,

To hold your lead with this tactic, you score more goals !!!!

Do not change anything, if you have a tactic that is working in a game, why change it?

If you change it you will invite problems onto your team.

The only time i consider changing anything is if i am down in a game and it looks like i can not come back or if they go 4-2-4 and Ill not change much when they do that either. Maybe temp and time wasting.

Lee

[Chinaski]

and what about home or away? do you change something?

[Chinaski]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lam:

Chinaski,

To hold your lead with this tactic, you score more goals !!!!

Do not change anything, if you have a tactic that is working in a game, why change it?

If you change it you will invite problems onto your team.

The only time i consider changing anything is if i am down in a game and it looks like i can not come back or if they go 4-2-4 and Ill not change much when they do that either. Maybe temp and time wasting.

Lee </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

that's right but I'm not a top team. Usually when I score the opposition come back hard!

[lam]

Chinaski,

The only thing i really change between home and away with this tactic is the D-Line. When at home ill often have it on the first line of 'push up', unless they have really fast defenders (18+) and when away i have it around one or two notches above the middle, unless they have really fast strikers (18+).

I play as spurs and i now have a strong side.

I have tried this with lower teams and it works just as well. The thing you have to remember is that this is tactic is designed around a fast and fairly direct system, therefore it actualy works well against teams that are attacking. When they push men forward, you almost end up playing a counter attacking system without the 'counter attack' button ticked.

You could even give it a try (clicking the button that is) and see what happens.

When you say that come back hard, do you mean that they attack heavily but do not score or they attack heavily and always score and you end up drawing or losing?

You could try a few things, but do not go over the top with these and they depend on your start up tactic.

Lower tempo a little, raise time wasting, lower or raise D-line a little, lower mentalities, lower creativity. Change tackling to hard on selected players.

These are all things that can help you defensively, but change them slowly and one at a time else you will not know what worked.

This thread has also be designed to encourage you to experiment with your settings, which is why there are very few direct answers to questions.

When the teams go on the attack watch what happens, where do the goals come from, how does the ball get to the player that scored, how does the ball get to the player that passed to the player that scored.

One thing that is worth highlighting here is that this tactic utilises no OI's. It works better without them.

HOwever, that said, you must still check the players that are on the field and especially so, when the opposition make a change as this could mean that you need to change your D-line or other such things.

I know experimenting can be frustrating and especially so when you have a tactic that works most of the time, but it has its rewards......

Lee

[lam]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The only thing i really change between home and away with this tactic is the D-Line. When at home ill often have it on the first line of 'push up', unless they have really fast defenders (18+) and when away i have it around one or two notches above the middle, unless they have really fast strikers (18+). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, i meant to say strikers in both cases.

[Chinaski]

this game is frustrating: I dominate, 20 shots, and I go 1-0.

But then the AI team dominates me, without anything to do.

Otherwise, I win 1-0, 20 shots vs 2, and then at the end of the match the AI team draws with only one ****in' shot.

That's poor!!

[kolobok]

Though I am not using exactly the same tactic but very similar one, I thought I would post some updates and ideas.

Finished first season with Aston Villa, 4th in EPL, not successfull in cups (though did not bother to win there as I considered cup games more like an opportunity for experiment), one of the best attacking records, 5th or 6th defensively. Had 16 games unbeaten run only to loose 2-3 to Derby in the last game Granted, Derby avoided relegation and I couldn't move anywhere from 4th place so I used half of reserve squad just to see who might stay for the next season. Apparently nobody.

Lessons learned:

1)WBs settings are extremely important, especially if WBs are the weakest part of the team. As they are asked to overlap, it's important to ensure that they don't lose ball often when they are up on the field because it opens up space for AI to counter-attack. I found that using SW and 2 DC instead of 3 DC helps to provide additional cover, as DCs are more willing to control WB-FB zone knowing that there is someone behind them (maybe just my imagination though).

2)Width. The first half of the season realtively narrow formation worked very well, but in the second half I had to play wider against weaker teams, because they started to play ultra-defensive against me.

3)I have learned that I have to rotate my squad more than usually. The reason is that if a player (particularly ST, MC, or WB) got injured, it takes some time for the sub to adapt to the role if he did not play enough before. Never seen it previously, at least not to such extent.

4) Even though the formation doe not seem to cover the middle of the pitch very well defensively, I don't think I had any problem in that department at all. Maybe it's due to the quality of my MCs.

[lam]

Hi,

The post has fallen off a bit, which is surprising as its still working great for me.

I thougth iwould post a little bit of an update:

[lam]

Don't you just love it when a plan comes together.

In the last 5 games i have played Arsenal 3 times.

First i beat them in the League Cup Final.

Secondly i stopped the 16 match unbeaten run in the premiership by winning 3:0.

Thirdly i just beat them in the FA cup 6th round.

When i kept drawing them i thought it was going to be one of those things where the computer wants you to get beaten.

These were obviously some key games as i am now 45 games unbeaten!!! I didnt want to lose that run !

Lee

[lam]

Hi,

I thought i would just let you know how well i did with this in the end.

But, as they say, all good things must come to an end. Anoyingly, it was Fulham away that ended this run, as it was last season.

Still i have won the premiership with 6 games to spare.

Lee

[nick1408]

after being reletively sucessful with Middlesbrough I took a job as Melbourne Victory, but my players could not play the formation (probably becasue they are crap) so I have this question: What should I look at when I need to change formation to suit crap players?

[frostrup71]

Have had some successs with this tactic, But still Im strugling with the 4 main sliders

Tempo

Width

Time Wasting

Defencive Line

The defence line I normally adjust so my defenders is close to the opponents attackers. Making sure they are not on top and are not to far away.

Is this correct... and if I decide to go more attacking should I then adjust the slider higher??

If Im getting outplayed and losing possession.. should I then lower tempo and width? And raise time wasting?

If I do not create any chances.. should I then adjust tempo, width to a higher level.. and TW to a lower??

[chriseldiablo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heathxxx:

Some very good points raised with the TTB settings here.

When you look at things realistically, settings for things such as TTB are basically common sense. Doing it from wider positions can often lose you the ball, unless you've got the absolute best players that can literally do anything well.

Strikers don't need to TTB, because you really want them to be on the end of them.

Sometimes though, if I'm brave enough and have centre-backs with the right abilities, I may have them set on TTB. NOT recommended to try at lower levels though! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How can you say all this? It is so far from truth I wonder if you ever played lower league! At very best I am questioning your knowledge about this game.

I play Macclesfield, the worst team in L2, and I use default player instructions from the 4-3-3 normal tactic. As you already should know, every player has TTB on 'mixed' or higher, even the GK!

I won the L2 by ease, scoring +54 goal first season!

I would never EVER set TTB to 'rarely' on my striker either because he has countless times done a Through Ball to my WIngers, due to that I play global mentality at default as well. If you do not know how that works I can for example tell you that striker takes a good part in the defense since he is on 'mixed FWR'. He falls back to help defense, gets the ball, then passes it to a winger who either go for goal (preferably) or a crossball if he's chased by a quick defender.

No wonder how many people struggles here, cause they actually LISTNEN to what you 'Gurus' say, no matter how stupid or complicated it is. I bet some here would jump into the sea as well, if you told them it would win the league...

/sigh!

[Cleon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">No wonder how many people struggles here, cause they actually LISTNEN to what you 'Gurus' say, no matter how stupid or complicated it is. I bet some here would jump into the sea as well, if you told them it would win the league... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shoo!!! If you not contributing to the thread then **** off and have digs elsewhere ok.

[kolobok]

Cleon,

I thought you abandoned this thread...

I had a question about passing settings a few posts above:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> quote:

I cant say what I tweak and what I dont. Because it all depends on whats happening in a game. If I see someone being caught in possession I may increase his pass to a more direct style. Or vice versa is I see him giving the ball away regular.

So, you suggest that if someone constantly cannot find passing option, changing his passing to more direct will help? What about accuracy? I understand that you think that it's better to give ball away far from own area than close to it, but still - maybe it's better to find a way to offer more passing options (e.g. make MCd to come closer to defs, etc)? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Would be happy to discuss.

[kolobok]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I would never EVER set TTB to 'rarely' on my striker either because he has countless times done a Through Ball to my WIngers, due to that I play global mentality at default as well. If you do not know how that works I can for example tell you that striker takes a good part in the defense since he is on 'mixed FWR'. He falls back to help defense, gets the ball, then passes it to a winger who either go for goal (preferably) or a crossball if he's chased by a quick defender. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Man, did you happen to notice that ST here has different settings than yours? Don't you think that it implies different role? Besides, what works in lower league often does not in EPL, so take it easy.

[Cleon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kolobok:

Cleon,

I thought you abandoned this thread...

I had a question about passing settings a few posts above:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> quote:

I cant say what I tweak and what I dont. Because it all depends on whats happening in a game. If I see someone being caught in possession I may increase his pass to a more direct style. Or vice versa is I see him giving the ball away regular.

So, you suggest that if someone constantly cannot find passing option, changing his passing to more direct will help? What about accuracy? I understand that you think that it's better to give ball away far from own area than close to it, but still - maybe it's better to find a way to offer more passing options (e.g. make MCd to come closer to defs, etc)? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Would be happy to discuss. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That works yeah, but if your unwilling to change shape, then thats the only real option.

[Purefun]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cleon:

Shoo!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brilliant. Didn't know they still used that word.

[heathxxx]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cleon:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">No wonder how many people struggles here, cause they actually LISTNEN to what you 'Gurus' say, no matter how stupid or complicated it is. I bet some here would jump into the sea as well, if you told them it would win the league... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shoo!!! If you not contributing to the thread then **** off and have digs elsewhere ok. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[heathxxx]

I laughed.

Different things work for different people. The variety is one of the things I like about FM.

I'm personally waiting for SI to release "LEGO FM". One that the kids can play that will have a built in set of cheats and cheat tactics.

Hey... they did LEGO Star Wars etc... why not LEGO FM!!

I still don't use a single striker Cleon

[jascko]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cleon:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">No wonder how many people struggles here, cause they actually LISTNEN to what you 'Gurus' say, no matter how stupid or complicated it is. I bet some here would jump into the sea as well, if you told them it would win the league... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shoo!!! If you not contributing to the thread then **** off and have digs elsewhere ok. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well to be honest this person has something constructive to say. I rearly reply on this forum but I think this was a to harsh coment from you Cleon. I argee that he has a wrong atitude but still he has some good points.

If you have a striker who drops down, and especially in this formation, it could be advisable to make him play TTB. I do that often and the result is many assists from him to winger/strikers. He also is more involved in building up the play with lower mentality and lower press. I totaly agree with the statment made by this person. Dont just kill off his statments when he came with some critcs because it destroys constructive discurse.

[heathxxx]

We all play the game in different ways. Who's to say who's right and who's wrong. All anyone can offer is information on experiences they've had in their own games.

If you're getting better results from global mentalities... great.

If you're getting better results from individual settings... fantastic.

The biggest single deciding factor on how well any tactic or instruction works is how well the player(s) respond to it in the game.

Many feel that individual player settings have a more powerful effect than global settings in FM08. This is a very detailed and potentially time-consuming approach to the game.

We all do different things with different players in the game. The aim for most of us is to offer advice, help, guidence that we see working in our own games. Criticism is fine, constructive criticism is better.

If what's worked for someone who's taken the time and effort to post tactics or advice in the forums, doesn't work for you, that that's a shame, but it happens. If something you've done works better, by all means discuss it, but there's no need to get personal and start jumping all over their posts.

[Cleon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jascko:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cleon:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">No wonder how many people struggles here, cause they actually LISTNEN to what you 'Gurus' say, no matter how stupid or complicated it is. I bet some here would jump into the sea as well, if you told them it would win the league... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shoo!!! If you not contributing to the thread then **** off and have digs elsewhere ok. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well to be honest this person has something constructive to say. I rearly reply on this forum but I think this was a to harsh coment from you Cleon. I argee that he has a wrong atitude but still he has some good points.

If you have a striker who drops down, and especially in this formation, it could be advisable to make him play TTB. I do that often and the result is many assists from him to winger/strikers. He also is more involved in building up the play with lower mentality and lower press. I totaly agree with the statment made by this person. Dont just kill off his statments when he came with some critcs because it destroys constructive discurse. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I killed off the statement because he was commenting on how I play. I want the striker to score goals, so id be an idiot to give him ttb's as he wouldnt score as many.

But anyways im done cannot be bothered anymore, adios.

[kolobok]

Well I think the thread is called "a discussion" to share ideas. Chris may have a constructive idea in his post but he could have noticed that TTB were discussed above in a few posts, not just one he picked out of contents. So, given the settings for ST in Cleon's tactic (extremely attacking mentality, short passing, relatively low CF) plus knowing that his ST is quick but not too strong, not giving him TTB makes sense. Would it be the case with typical TM type of player or if ST has had lower mentality, or 2 ST formation? Not at all. Does it mean that Cleon's advise is wrong? No, because he is talking about the team and players he has.

And here is where the biggest problems starts - people copy instructions without thinking what they want from players, what their players capable of, what their players strong sides are, etc.

As for individual vs. global - the better players you have, the more induvidual instructions you can use effectively because: a)players are capable to follow more complex instructions and b)you can utilize a player's strength to full extent without much risk of being punished for not masking his weaknesses. That's why in LLM it might be benefitial to play more global.

[jascko]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kolobok:

Well I think the thread is called "a discussion" to share ideas. Chris may have a constructive idea in his post but he could have noticed that TTB were discussed above in a few posts, not just one he picked out of contents. So, given the settings for ST in Cleon's tactic (extremely attacking mentality, short passing, relatively low CF) plus knowing that his ST is quick but not too strong, not giving him TTB makes sense. Would it be the case with typical TM type of player or if ST has had lower mentality, or 2 ST formation? Not at all. Does it mean that Cleon's advise is wrong? No, because he is talking about the team and players he has.

And here is where the biggest problems starts - people copy instructions without thinking what they want from players, what their players capable of, what their players strong sides are, etc.

As for individual vs. global - the better players you have, the more induvidual instructions you can use effectively because: a)players are capable to follow more complex instructions and b)you can utilize a player's strength to full extent without much risk of being punished for not masking his weaknesses. That's why in LLM it might be benefitial to play more global. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know perfectly what Cleon is saying, and I understand that its many elements wich decides what kind of style you play and what you want from your players. But since Cleon himself has expressed that THIS particular tactic is suited to his team and its up to the rest of us to decide what we want to do with this formation. Only stupid will do the same replica of his tactic because it will not work well.

Based on this statment I asume that many of us dosnt have a fast stiker and so the conclusion must be that it is better to drop your striker closer to your midlefield and give him TTB plus HOB, ecpesially if you have fast wingers and slow but strong striker. The person who started this discussion made a point that could be useful for many who dosnt have fast striker, but discurse was cut down because it dosnt match Cleons ideology of how HIS striker should be set up. This is contradicting because he first stated that we should suit the tactic ande player instructions after players ability, but then cuts down discurse from the person who was trying to do exactly that. Dont get me wrong, I do appreciate everything Cleon has done for this forum, but sometimes I feel some members are not given the chance to contribute.

[Cleon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jascko:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kolobok:

Well I think the thread is called "a discussion" to share ideas. Chris may have a constructive idea in his post but he could have noticed that TTB were discussed above in a few posts, not just one he picked out of contents. So, given the settings for ST in Cleon's tactic (extremely attacking mentality, short passing, relatively low CF) plus knowing that his ST is quick but not too strong, not giving him TTB makes sense. Would it be the case with typical TM type of player or if ST has had lower mentality, or 2 ST formation? Not at all. Does it mean that Cleon's advise is wrong? No, because he is talking about the team and players he has.

And here is where the biggest problems starts - people copy instructions without thinking what they want from players, what their players capable of, what their players strong sides are, etc.

As for individual vs. global - the better players you have, the more induvidual instructions you can use effectively because: a)players are capable to follow more complex instructions and b)you can utilize a player's strength to full extent without much risk of being punished for not masking his weaknesses. That's why in LLM it might be benefitial to play more global. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know perfectly what Cleon is saying, and I understand that its many elements wich decides what kind of style you play and what you want from your players. But since Cleon himself has expressed that THIS particular tactic is suited to his team and its up to the rest of us to decide what we want to do with this formation. Only stupid will do the same replica of his tactic because it will not work well.

Based on this statment I asume that many of us dosnt have a fast stiker and so the conclusion must be that it is better to drop your striker closer to your midlefield and give him TTB plus HOB, ecpesially if you have fast wingers and slow but strong striker. The person who started this discussion made a point that could be useful for many who dosnt have fast striker, but discurse was cut down because it dosnt match Cleons ideology of how HIS striker should be set up. This is contradicting because he first stated that we should suit the tactic ande player instructions after players ability, but then cuts down discurse from the person who was trying to do exactly that. Dont get me wrong, I do appreciate everything Cleon has done for this forum, but sometimes I feel some members are not given the chance to contribute. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No I didnt shoot him down for playing different. I shot him down for saying

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> No wonder how many people struggles here, cause they actually LISTNEN to what you 'Gurus' say, no matter how stupid or complicated it is. I bet some here would jump into the sea as well, if you told them it would win the league... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So again your wrong, all you doing like Chris did is reading snippets and taking the points out to suit, rather than reading it all.

And I've explained many times why I set the striker up. And no its not because hes fast but because I want him scoring goals. Giving any player ttb's often will result in lesser goals scored by that person.

It was Chris who shot down my approach when replying to Heath, not the other way around.

Which is fine, as there are many ways to play the game. But no need to attack us with the comments I quoted above. Thats what im not happy about. So I've not been contradicting at all, so learn facts, or i'll just keep proving you wrong.

I think I just heard the bandwagon snap btw.

[kolobok]

Everybody is given a chance but...

Saying "you are all wrong" is hardly a contribution;

Taking one post out of at least 10 regarding TTB and making rather rude comment without even bothering to check that the exact idea about ST playing TB to wingers has been discussed does not contribute anything;

Finally, entering every single thread and posting "I play global mentality and that's magical solution for everybody" not only does not contribute much, but rather misleading. Especially when it's posted by someone who was going to give up just 1 week ago. There were several excelent threads on using global settings, the best 2 to mention are Zagalo's 2-6-2 approach and Sussex Hammer WH threads, so promoting the idea in a rather rude form does not help much.

[jascko]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So again your wrong, all you doing like Chris did is reading snippets and taking the points out to suit, rather than reading it all.

And I've explained many times why I set the striker up. And no its not because hes fast but because I want him scoring goals. Giving any player ttb's often will result in lesser goals scored by that person.

It was Chris who shot down my approach when replying to Heath, not the other way around.

Which is fine, as there are many ways to play the game. But no need to attack us with the comments I quoted above. Thats what im not happy about. So I've not been contradicting at all, so learn facts, or i'll just keep proving you wrong.

I think I just heard the bandwagon snap btw. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well is your fourm and you are runing the show. Whatever argument I came up with you will just ignore, becuase I m nobody in your eyes. Sometimes you acting arogant wich you shold not do as you are moderator and leader of this forum. It is bad quality for the leader to be arogant as you was against Chris. I told you before, I agree Chris post was with bad atitude and I dont defend his atitude, but I think he had made some useful points. You should just give him a worning and told him that you have explaind TTB once before. This should be more deliberative forum, for the moment it is not.

My counclusion is this: I have my striker set up with mix TTB, he scors many goals and has many assists. It is no rule wich says "if you set up your striker without TTB - your striker will score more". It totaly depent on type of the striker and the style of football you are playing. So for evereybody else who wants to do this, feel free and try.