In Game Advertising

[Ando THFC]

The solution has been sorted in this thread already surely. Just make the ads require a double click to open and then you solve the problem I, and many others have had, with errant clicks opening the browser.

Sorted.

[VonBlade]

Do you not think you're overreacting just a tad?

He said it's despicable and he meant it!

It's what instantly sprung to mind.

[Kickballz]

The solution has been sorted in this thread already surely. Just make the ads require a double click to open and then you solve the problem I, and many others have had, with errant clicks opening the browser.

Sorted.

That's not enough. I don't want to have ads downloaded in the background and I don't want my personal details going to 3rd parties.

I agree it is despicable.

[Pawel_lfc]

I agreed. This is by far the biggest insult SI has given us.

[FISHER HATES GRAVEL]

Don't click on the advert then? I really don't understand why people keep clicking on the ads if they don't like it. I clicked on it once, it vaguely annoyed me, I didn't click on them again, problem solved.

GillsMan, others have pointed out flaws in your line of argument already and i've got another for you - the collision detection is absolutely woeful. I play on (i think it's called) Zoomed Horizontal (the Sensible Soccer-looking camera) because it's less jerky than the others (including 2D!) and twice today, on clicking on the oppositions goalkeeper to find out his name - it's opened up adverts in Firefox for Warchild. On both occasions the keeper was 2 or 3 yards off his line, fairly central to the goal - and on this camera option the adverts are quite big and clear so it's very hard to click on them accidentally.

you keep talking about them as a beneficial thing for the 'future of gaming' but what benefit do we, as FM purchasing gamers, get from them?

One, the pitch on 2D modes is now notably smaller than in 07 and 08, making these modes unplayable in windowed mode unless you've got a crazy big monitor.

Two, they can interrupt your game quite easily, including as in my experience above when you've clicked on an active footballer on the pitch (this is compounded by the game not auto-pausing on activating an ad, potentially causing you to do worse at the game.

Three, the data collected and the exact way this system will work is buried way down in the EULA, is very poorly defined indeed, and even the SEGA marketing bod in this thread didn't have answers to peoples questions on how it works, though he says he'll look into it for us. In my opinion in game advertising that 'phones home' as this obviously will when active (as well as DRM that does the same) should be mentioned clearly on the PC game box along with the system requirements - 95% of UK shops do not accept returns on PC Games full stop - so the customer has no recourse on reading the EULA if they do not agree with it, other than to eat the £25-30 loss (and again I have to bring up that Sega/SI set the RRP at an outrageous £39.99 - even if no-one is charging that).

Fourth - will we have an option to 'veto' ads at all? Sports Interactive have a history of teaming up with News International to distribute demos, and the first time it nearly put me off buying the game. If I get an in-game advert for the News Of The World or any other Murdoch-owned product - that's it - you've lost a customer who has bought every game since 96/97 and is an FM Live subscriber over a few quid from a xenophobic newspaper which is affiliated with The Sun and the even more loathsome FOX News .

Fifth - it uses up bandwidth and system resources - true, it'll likely be a tiny amount of both, but FM09 is already by some distance the worst-optimised Football Manager game ever, and I already have to shut down everything, Firefox, MSN, my virus-scanning software to wring acceptable performance out of 09 - this is a computer that could not only handle FM08 perfectly but will run the likes of Half-Life 2, Bioshock, WoW etc without blinking. If one of the things contributing, in however tiny a way, to the poor performance of this game is something like IGA that has no benefit to the player at all, people won't be happy.

Sixth - to bring up that ludicrous £39.99 'RRP' price tag again, my great suspicion now is that FM10 will come out with an RRP of about £35 (more in line with other PC games) and Miles, Duffy or someone will be on here saying "due to the success of our great IGA pitch hoardings, we're delighted to be able to pass the benefits onto our loyal customers by lowering the RRP" ... basically we won't save a penny because Sega never expected anyone to sell or buy the game for £40 and the real price tag for future installments will not be any less than it would have been anyway (many companies have used IGA for years, it's never resulted in a price drop)

the only possible argument for it I can think of is "more money for SI to go on making the games we love" which'll obviously be the line you take with us as a company. But at THIS MOMENT in time it's not even providing any benefit for you (SI products on the hoardings are... what we're playing already! and the charities, while worthy, are already advertised in game and have been for years - unskippable, natch). So there are all those downsides, both in terms of gameplay and other concerns, without it currently benefitting ANYBODY - and with a ton of bugs in game and loads of customers having technical problems both with activation and with terrible in-game performance.

If SI or SEGA could provide some concrete assurances that they'll reinvest all profits from IGA into the development and QA of future Sports Interactive games (and not, for example, making some wacky and random FM10 deodorant gimmick or the development and QA of restrictive DRM or better IGA-serving software) it would set my mind greatly at rest, and I'm sure I'm not alone here.

I'm also very disappointed with the couple of replies aimed at those excellent posts raising concerns of a more technically-minded nature than my own, basically going "LOL MATE GO AND WATCH LOOSE CHANGE U CONSPIRACY NUTTER". Loads of long-term contributers to these boards who have expressed moderate criticism of SI have been banned in the last couple of weeks for reasons as asinine and poorly-defined as "trolling" and "you contribute nothing to these boards". It's funny how people who obviously ARE trolling and contributing nothing of value get away with it because they're not aiming their stupid barbs at Sports Interactive

[Whatever FFS]

Well written FHG..

[gubbs]

SO TRUE gubbs.

But we are getting mis-tracked IGA itself is NOT AN ISSUE.

I am not against IGA I am against TARGETED ADVERTISING SERVICE which either detects location or browsing(spies).

You wonder How CLOSE TO PHORM this particular IGA is or could become. The admission it maybe IP based alone causes huge legal questions how its invasive, dirty and questionable ethnically. SI or SEGA wont have one damn control of third party actions and will never know if its abused and only have the word of the adware company its not a collection feeding tool so they could sell it or do worse.

I wonder if it even possible it do real dirty underhand work and take individuals browsing habits into the equation if not now, a real danger it could be a possibility in the future. Therefore it becomes PHORMlike rootkit like viral market tool.

Peeps need to do a search see how companies are using targeted adverts to invade your privacy from your ISP planning to sell out to a company who did rootkits for spyware, to governments planning to save all your web/email activity, to games who think they can kick you while your down. Thinking they can kick there customer loyalty by selling them down the river for a bit of cash.

Ever since the rules got lapsed with Data Protection Act we have had all and sundry come out of the cupboards like cockroaches to nibble at your civil libities and privacy.

If peeps dont stand up agianst it now we could face even more invasive issues. SI & SEGA have been very naive and should never trust the word of third party company.

When people see that its riddled with advertising, poorly evolved, vastly overpriced (what happened to the tacit understanding between FM buyers and SI re: release cycle and pricing?), buggy and never actually finished before a new one is put out they'll just - pirate it instead.

[GillsMan]

GillsMan, others have pointed out flaws in your line of argument already and i've got another for you - the collision detection is absolutely woeful. I play on (i think it's called) Zoomed Horizontal (the Sensible Soccer-looking camera) because it's less jerky than the others (including 2D!) and twice today, on clicking on the oppositions goalkeeper to find out his name - it's opened up adverts in Firefox for Warchild. On both occasions the keeper was 2 or 3 yards off his line, fairly central to the goal - and on this camera option the adverts are quite big and clear so it's very hard to click on them accidentally.

you keep talking about them as a beneficial thing for the 'future of gaming' but what benefit do we, as FM purchasing gamers, get from them?

One, the pitch on 2D modes is now notably smaller than in 07 and 08, making these modes unplayable in windowed mode unless you've got a crazy big monitor.

Two, they can interrupt your game quite easily, including as in my experience above when you've clicked on an active footballer on the pitch (this is compounded by the game not auto-pausing on activating an ad, potentially causing you to do worse at the game.

Three, the data collected and the exact way this system will work is buried way down in the EULA, is very poorly defined indeed, and even the SEGA marketing bod in this thread didn't have answers to peoples questions on how it works, though he says he'll look into it for us. In my opinion in game advertising that 'phones home' as this obviously will when active (as well as DRM that does the same) should be mentioned clearly on the PC game box along with the system requirements - 95% of UK shops do not accept returns on PC Games full stop - so the customer has no recourse on reading the EULA if they do not agree with it, other than to eat the £25-30 loss (and again I have to bring up that Sega/SI set the RRP at an outrageous £39.99 - even if no-one is charging that).

Fourth - will we have an option to 'veto' ads at all? Sports Interactive have a history of teaming up with News International to distribute demos, and the first time it nearly put me off buying the game. If I get an in-game advert for the News Of The World or any other Murdoch-owned product - that's it - you've lost a customer who has bought every game since 96/97 and is an FM Live subscriber over a few quid from a xenophobic newspaper which is affiliated with The Sun and the even more loathsome FOX News .

Fifth - it uses up bandwidth and system resources - true, it'll likely be a tiny amount of both, but FM09 is already by some distance the worst-optimised Football Manager game ever, and I already have to shut down everything, Firefox, MSN, my virus-scanning software to wring acceptable performance out of 09 - this is a computer that could not only handle FM08 perfectly but will run the likes of Half-Life 2, Bioshock, WoW etc without blinking. If one of the things contributing, in however tiny a way, to the poor performance of this game is something like IGA that has no benefit to the player at all, people won't be happy.

Sixth - to bring up that ludicrous £39.99 'RRP' price tag again, my great suspicion now is that FM10 will come out with an RRP of about £35 (more in line with other PC games) and Miles, Duffy or someone will be on here saying "due to the success of our great IGA pitch hoardings, we're delighted to be able to pass the benefits onto our loyal customers by lowering the RRP" ... basically we won't save a penny because Sega never expected anyone to sell or buy the game for £40 and the real price tag for future installments will not be any less than it would have been anyway (many companies have used IGA for years, it's never resulted in a price drop)

the only possible argument for it I can think of is "more money for SI to go on making the games we love" which'll obviously be the line you take with us as a company. But at THIS MOMENT in time it's not even providing any benefit for you (SI products on the hoardings are... what we're playing already! and the charities, while worthy, are already advertised in game and have been for years - unskippable, natch). So there are all those downsides, both in terms of gameplay and other concerns, without it currently benefitting ANYBODY - and with a ton of bugs in game and loads of customers having technical problems both with activation and with terrible in-game performance.

If SI or SEGA could provide some concrete assurances that they'll reinvest all profits from IGA into the development and QA of future Sports Interactive games (and not, for example, making some wacky and random FM10 deodorant gimmick or the development and QA of restrictive DRM or better IGA-serving software) it would set my mind greatly at rest, and I'm sure I'm not alone here.

I'm also very disappointed with the couple of replies aimed at those excellent posts raising concerns of a more technically-minded nature than my own, basically going "LOL MATE GO AND WATCH LOOSE CHANGE U CONSPIRACY NUTTER". Loads of long-term contributers to these boards who have expressed moderate criticism of SI have been banned in the last couple of weeks for reasons as asinine and poorly-defined as "trolling" and "you contribute nothing to these boards". It's funny how people who obviously ARE trolling and contributing nothing of value get away with it because they're not aiming their stupid barbs at Sports Interactive

Phew! I'll answer all of your points:

OK, fair point regarding how easy it is to click on the ads. I play on a fairly large monitor which is perhaps why I didn't have this problem when I played the demo. I'll concede on this point; perhaps it's something SI could look into if it really is affecting that many people?

As I've said before, it's beneficial to gamers because it means that there's a revenue stream which developers and publishers can tap into. There have been lots of barbed comments recently from the industry about PC gaming and how piracy means it's barely worth investing in. Fwiw I don't believe piracy is that bad, but if these companies have a different source of revenue other than unit sales, it means they're more likely to continue to invest in the PC games market which I contend is good news for us, the PC gamers.

1) Other people have made that point too, can't say I wholly disagree.

2) I play in windowed mode, so this didn't affect me, but while I can see that it's annoying in full screen mode, I don't buy the argument that it fundamentally affects your game - just reopen the game as soon as it minimises.

3) They take your IP. This way you get area specific ads. It's not a tracking cookie or anything like that (but even then I don't see what the worries are with them). All game companies set a higher RRP then you'd normally expect to pay. This is an industry practice.

4) If you have an option to veto the ads, the ads won't be as lucrative and there's barely any point putting them in at all.

5) Totally correct - the effect on bandwidth is minimal. So it's not worth worrying about it.

6) See point 3.

Look, I work for the ASA so perhaps I'm a little more "realistic" about advertising than most here. I see the best and the worst of it, I see the future and the past of advertising, and frankly I know the tricks of the trade. Perhaps this is why I'm genuinely not afraid of ads targeted at me by my location. This is added to the fact that I've been saying that IGA should be in games for years.

[gubbs]

Phew! I'll answer all of your points:

OK, fair point regarding how easy it is to click on the ads. I play on a fairly large monitor which is perhaps why I didn't have this problem when I played the demo. I'll concede on this point; perhaps it's something SI could look into if it really is affecting that many people?

As I've said before, it's beneficial to gamers because it means that there's a revenue stream which developers and publishers can tap into. There have been lots of barbed comments recently from the industry about PC gaming and how piracy means it's barely worth investing in. Fwiw I don't believe piracy is that bad, but if these companies have a different source of revenue other than unit sales, it means they're more likely to continue to invest in the PC games market which I contend is good news for us, the PC gamers.

1) Other people have made that point too, can't say I wholly disagree.

2) I play in windowed mode, so this didn't affect me, but while I can see that it's annoying in full screen mode, I don't buy the argument that it fundamentally affects your game - just reopen the game as soon as it minimises.

3) They take your IP. This way you get area specific ads. It's not a tracking cookie or anything like that (but even then I don't see what the worries are with them). All game companies set a higher RRP then you'd normally expect to pay. This is an industry practice.

4) If you have an option to veto the ads, the ads won't be as lucrative and there's barely any point putting them in at all.

5) Totally correct - the effect on bandwidth is minimal. So it's not worth worrying about it.

6) See point 3.

Look, I work for the ASA so perhaps I'm a little more "realistic" about advertising than most here. I see the best and the worst of it, I see the future and the past of advertising, and frankly I know the tricks of the trade. Perhaps this is why I'm genuinely not afraid of ads targeted at me by my location. This is added to the fact that I've been saying that IGA should be in games for years.

I think you're missing the point here: Why should SEGA or their partners profit from my gaming after I have paid them a perfectly reasonable amount of money up front for a license?

If the game license was free on the condition of IGA that would be justifiable. But charging me then fleecing me is not. In any other arrangement I would be viewed as a partner and expect a share of the revenue or some other reward for my agreeing to be a cash dynamo for the publishers.

What they are asking us to do is pay, then pay again. Which is clearly wrong.

And this 'revenue stream' as you put it, is a good thing for whom? Not me. Companies are in the business of making games for profit. No other reason. Movie producers don't produce movies for artisitc merit. Music producers don't publish and distribute X Factor Idol 9000, 000 for artistic merit.

S.I. doesn't make FM for the love it. They do it for cash.

Why should I, the end user, be delighted about increasing their profits at my expense?

That is before we start on down the road of who owns my PC? Me? Who pays my broadband & electricty bills? Me. Who is concerned about my privacy and security? Me. Who is having their consumer data harvested and re-sold? Me. Who is getting paid? Not me.

QED: Swivel.

[GillsMan]

I think you're missing the point here: Why should SEGA or their partners profit from my gaming after I have paid them a perfectly reasonable amount of money up front for a license?

If the game license was free on the condition of IGA that would be justifiable. But charging me then fleecing me is not. In any other arrangement I would be viewed as a partner and expect a share of the revenue or some other reward for my agreeing to be a cash dynamo for the publishers.

What they are asking us to do is pay, then pay again. Which is clearly wrong.

And this 'revenue stream' as you put it, is a good thing for whom? Not me. Companies are in the business of making games for profit. No other reason. Movie producers don't produce movies for artisitc merit. Music producers don't publish and distribute X Factor Idol 9000, 000 for artistic merit.

S.I. doesn't make FM for the love it. They do it for cash.

Why should I, the end user, be delighted about increasing their profits at my expense?

That is before we start on down the road of who owns my PC? Me? Who pays my broadband & electricty bills? Me. Who is concerned about my privacy and security? Me. Who is having their consumer data harvested and re-sold? Me. Who is getting paid? Not me.

QED: Swivel.

Er, don't think I've missed the point actually. I've already said that I'd like to see the price of the game reduced if IGA continues (but I wouldn't expect to get it for free; I live in the real world, and plenty of games have IGA - this is nothing new). You're not being asked to pay twice, not quite sure how you've worked that one out. To use someone else's analogy from earlier, you pay for Sky Sports, and you get advertising, but you're still only paying once.

SI make FM for cash, correct. Welcome to the world of business. It just so happens that many of the people working on the game enjoy the game. Well fair play to them for having a job they can enjoy and that pays well. We'd all like to be in the same position I'm sure.

You're entitled to your view, so I'm not going to argue why you should believe differently. I've set out my stall, and explained why my view differs from many of the people here who are, let's be frank, afraid of advertising.

[Pawel_lfc]

You did Gills. Its a pain in the a*** don't defend it.

[GillsMan]

You did Gills. Its a pain in the a*** don't defend it.

I didn't, and I'm entitled to my view, and given that I've been arguing in favour of IGA for a number of years, I'm entitled to my view. I respect that others may have different views; you'd do well to do the same.

[gubbs]

Er, don't think I've missed the point actually. I've already said that I'd like to see the price of the game reduced if IGA continues (but I wouldn't expect to get it for free; I live in the real world, and plenty of games have IGA - this is nothing new). You're not being asked to pay twice, not quite sure how you've worked that one out. To use someone else's analogy from earlier, you pay for Sky Sports, and you get advertising, but you're still only paying once.

SI make FM for cash, correct. Welcome to the world of business. It just so happens that many of the people working on the game enjoy the game. Well fair play to them for having a job they can enjoy and that pays well. We'd all like to be in the same position I'm sure.

You're entitled to your view, so I'm not going to argue why you should believe differently. I've set out my stall, and explained why my view differs from many of the people here who are, let's be frank, afraid of advertising.

Hang, because I object to giving something for nothing I am 'afraid' of advertising? Sounds a bit like anti war dissenters being accused of being unpatriotic to me.

You might work in the 'industry' but presumably you don't do it for nothing. They pay you for your time and expenses, yes? Well I'd like the same if they put advertising in my copy of FM please. Thank you very much. My bills aren't free. My hardware isn't free. My game isn't free. So why should I subsidise IGA?

The price of the game won't be reduced. Come on. Interest rate cuts never make it to the customer, VAT cuts never make it to the customer; you've contradicted yourself by suggesting that business is a means to an end, then why should anyone want to reduce their profits by charging less?

That's insulting to anyone's intelligence frankly. Your opinion is indeed yours and you are entitled to it. But the facts are evident: it is going to cost me money and I will not see any return on my 'investment' of resources. In the world of business this is called a 'rip off'.

All this will do as I have suggested elsewhere on the forum is increase piracy as more otherwise legitimate customers will feel justified in stealing the game.

[Pawel_lfc]

Dam right, they're insulting out intelligence.

[GillsMan]

Hang, because I object to giving something for nothing I am 'afraid' of advertising? Sounds a bit like anti war dissenters being accused of being unpatriotic to me.

You might work in the 'industry' but presumably you don't do it for nothing. They pay you for your time and expenses, yes? Well I'd like the same if they put advertising in my copy of FM please. Thank you very much. My bills aren't free. My hardware isn't free. My game isn't free. So why should I subsidise IGA?

The price of the game won't be reduced. Come on. Interest rate cuts never make it to the customer, VAT cuts never make it to the customer; you've contradicted yourself by suggesting that business is a means to an end, then why should anyone want to reduce their profits by charging less?

That's insulting to anyone's intelligence frankly. Your opinion is indeed yours and you are entitled to it. But the facts are evident: it is going to cost me money and I will not see any return on my 'investment' of resources. In the world of business this is called a 'rip off'.

All this will do as I have suggested elsewhere on the forum is increase piracy as more otherwise legitimate customers will feel justified in stealing the game.

Sorry, the "afraid" of advertising wasn't directed at you per se, but the general reactions of people to advertise. Yes, I get paid, because I work for it. IGA hardly counts as the same, otherwise you'd be demanding money for TV ads, after all electricity bills and TV licenses aren't free either. Neither is a subscription channel which also carries advertising.

I don't think you're in a position to say what will happen to the price of the game frankly. I think it should be reduced slightly if IGA is to continue, partly because IGA is an additional revenue stream, and partly because cutting the price of the game might (I say might, I have no evidence to back this up) reduce the number of people who pirate the game.

Interest rates do get passed on - my bank just cut my mortgage rate by 1.5%; VAT is always 17.5% so not sure why you think VAT cuts are not passed on. I haven't contradicted myself, you'll find the biggest businesses in the land cut their prices to encourage more people to buy their products. Come on, this is hardly advanced school of economics here!

[FISHER HATES GRAVEL]

Phew! I'll answer all of your points:

OK, fair point regarding how easy it is to click on the ads. I play on a fairly large monitor which is perhaps why I didn't have this problem when I played the demo. I'll concede on this point; perhaps it's something SI could look into if it really is affecting that many people?

As I've said before, it's beneficial to gamers because it means that there's a revenue stream which developers and publishers can tap into. There have been lots of barbed comments recently from the industry about PC gaming and how piracy means it's barely worth investing in. Fwiw I don't believe piracy is that bad, but if these companies have a different source of revenue other than unit sales, it means they're more likely to continue to invest in the PC games market which I contend is good news for us, the PC gamers.

1) Other people have made that point too, can't say I wholly disagree.

2) I play in windowed mode, so this didn't affect me, but while I can see that it's annoying in full screen mode, I don't buy the argument that it fundamentally affects your game - just reopen the game as soon as it minimises.

3) They take your IP. This way you get area specific ads. It's not a tracking cookie or anything like that (but even then I don't see what the worries are with them). All game companies set a higher RRP then you'd normally expect to pay. This is an industry practice.

4) If you have an option to veto the ads, the ads won't be as lucrative and there's barely any point putting them in at all.

5) Totally correct - the effect on bandwidth is minimal. So it's not worth worrying about it.

6) See point 3.

Look, I work for the ASA so perhaps I'm a little more "realistic" about advertising than most here. I see the best and the worst of it, I see the future and the past of advertising, and frankly I know the tricks of the trade. Perhaps this is why I'm genuinely not afraid of ads targeted at me by my location. This is added to the fact that I've been saying that IGA should be in games for years.

fair enough. my main disagreement with your points here is the piracy thing. like you I obviously realise it's a problem and would maybe query the extent of the problem - but it's worth noting that most of those complaining the loudest about 'piracy killing the PC gaming market' are those who've clearly got themselves to blame most of all - Gears Of War and Mass Effect sold comparatively poorly because they came out ages after the 360 version (because the developers took big payments from Microsoft for a period of exclusivity), in ME's effect had stupid, draconian DRM akin to that of FM09 (and had a bigger effect on sales because unlike FM09 people could just buy the other version) and in GoWs case was lazily ported and with a terrible multiplayer system compared with 360. They sold badly because they were inferior products, with piracy being a secondary factor hurting them a little bit extra. Same with Ubisoft, Konami and Capcom who've been bleating like girls about it for a long time now - the vast majority of their games have been terribly ported to PC so that you basically have to have a PS2 or 360 pad to play them anyway, and often have to exit the programs with Ctrl-Alt-Del as they haven't bothered to code an 'exit to windows' option! Of course there are a couple of respected indie devs and the recent World Of Goo thing that are a bit more valid, but on the whole the recent piracy complaints have been so transparent they're barely worth bringing up. I would hope SI were better than that and won't start peddling the 1 download = 1 lost sale nonsense.

I'm not 'afraid' of ads by any means, though I go to great lengths to avoid them. Reason? I simply get nothing out of them, I haven't been persuaded to buy something by an advert since I was a child, it's an industry built on deceit and patronisation by design. Of course, the worst examples of TV advertising and constant web flash ads and pop unders sour me on the many more harmless ones, but I just feel it's become farcical how intrusive they've become in most aspects of our lives. ITV are trialling technology that will show static advertising in blank areas (the sky, side of a van etc) in the background of the news.

We live in a world where it's conceivable we'll start to see adverts for expedia.co.uk in the middle of a report on a murder trial very soon. is it any wonder some of us just want a break from it during our leisure time? I'm not being unreasonable, and I don't think many in this thread are - we'd largely be content to see static pitchside hoardings with no hyperlink, a la FIFA for the last 10 years, and it would alleviate our concerns if we knew with 100% certainty that any money raised would go straight into improving FM10 or FM Live, rather than another wing of SEGA, or some viral marketing tat that all the major publishers seem to do, or another 'world promotional tour' for Miles to brag about in SI emails. In short, we'd just like to be treated with a bit of respect, not feel like our intelligence is being insulted, kept informed without tons of spin, and not have it intrude on actual gameplay. The advertising industry does not have a good record in those respects, and sadly in recent years neither do Sports Interactive

edit: oh also, re: the bandwidth thing - the FM09 launch has revealed, as admitted by SI as a misjudgment, that a lot of casual or non-gamers buy FM games and a lot of them have very modest computers. It would be a reasonable assumption, I think, that if you were to draw up a Venn diagram, lots of them would be on yer basic BT, Tiscali etc broadband packages which have quite phenomenally restrictive bandwidth limits. For them, mild use of BBC iPlayer or youtube will put them over their limit, so every tiny bit of bandwidth adds up, especially when it's not something they'd choose to use it on. The start of this thread shows that it's not just those of us who are wary of ads and adware and aware of stuff like PHORM who aren't that comfortable with the idea of software 'phoning home', especially as no mention is made of it until it's too late to return the game. I'm also concerned, with the massive problems SI have had with all 3 forms of activation, with the various technical problems and incompatibilities people have experienced, with their apparent inability to handle DDoS attacks (I know they can be devastating, but there should be a contingency plan as they KNEW they'd be a potential target with this DRM) and with the generally inefficient programming of the match engine segment of the game (some basic 2D dots tax my computer far more than Bioshock. really?) - with all that, how do we know that any minor errors or bugs with the adverts being served up won't end up crashing or adversely affecting my matches while in progress? Sort the game itself out and THEN worry about coding in IGA in a patch or something, don't spend time on that when the Serie C Cup is still killing people's save games, for example

[Tomesy]

Do you not think you're overreacting just a tad?

No.

I love this game, I always have.

However, had I known that this invasive advertising was present in the end product, I would have avoided purchase on principal.

[GillsMan]

FISHER - you make a persuasive argument for your case, and I'm certainly in agreement with you re: the piracy argument. My argument for IGA has always been that it comes as a replacement for DRM which, coupled with a lower price, should help combat piracy.

If a game cost £19.99, contained no DRM, and used the revenue from IGA (coupled with the revenue from unit sales) the impact of piracy should be minimal in my opinion.

Your arguments re: advertising generally are also spot on. Now that Ofcom looks like it's going to relax the rules on product placement, advertising is going to be everywhere. Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of advertising - I watch it all day at work, so you can imagine I don't want to watch at home either - but I do recognise (as you appear to as well) that it's here to stay and it's likely to be all around us. Taking this as read, I'd like IGA to help make games better. If the revenue from IGA helps ensure that any revenue lost through piracy (and some is clearly lost, though you're right that it's not as simple as 1 pirated copy = 1 less sale) does not impact on the quality of the product.

I just want to ensure that companies continue to receive the money and investment they need to make good quality PC games. I'm an avid PC gamer, and it worries me that some companies may jettison the PC games market because of piracy.

[FISHER HATES GRAVEL]

If a game cost £19.99, contained no DRM, and used the revenue from IGA (coupled with the revenue from unit sales) the impact of piracy should be minimal in my opinion.

Yeah, even someone as anti-advertising as me would be cool with that model. (don't envy your job, mind )

Problem is that IGA is now extremely viable on both Xbox360 and PS3 - so I don't think it'll turn round the opinions of any publishers who already want to pull out or at least pull back from the PC market as they can still do the same on their bigger-selling formats.

This post brought to you by Nestle, the great taste kids die for

[GavinZac]

That's not enough. I don't want to have ads downloaded in the background and I don't want my personal details going to 3rd parties.

I agree it is despicable.

Your personal details do not go to 3rd parties. Your IP goes to a third party, but your IP passes through a few thousand 3rd parties on the way too, in fact the same could be said about the post you made.

[bluesjunior]

Can't these ads be stopped with programs like Adblock Plus etc?.

[Kickballz]

Your personal details do not go to 3rd parties. Your IP goes to a third party, but your IP passes through a few thousand 3rd parties on the way too, in fact the same could be said about the post you made.

Targetted adverting DOES collect personal data.

Read the OP where Matt - SEGA said " In simple terms - what I've been told is this;

- IGA collects no "personal" data to my knowledge."

Note the "what I've been told" and "to my knowledge". That is not confirmation that it doesn't collect personal data - that is called covering your back.

[GavinZac]

Targetted adverting DOES collect personal data.

Location targetted advertising does not collect personal data. Have you seen ads on the internet lately? All they have is your IP yet they'll say "Meet Singles in Cork, Ireland!". While I doubt there'll be any 'personal ads' in the game, location targetted advertising works better for everyone. Without location targetting, I'd end up mostly likely getting a ton of JJB Sports or Heatons ads even if there aren't any of those shops in Ireland. Whats the point? I won't care, the advertiser doesn't want to pay for me seeing them. Also, because of EU law, location based advert targeting must only store the data as aggregate - your IP is not stored, your location is, and only in terms of "there are 12 users in Cork, Ireland".

Read the OP where Matt - SEGA said " In simple terms - what I've been told is this;

- IGA collects no "personal" data to my knowledge."

Note the "what I've been told" and "to my knowledge". That is not confirmation that it doesn't collect personal data - that is called covering your back.

That's Matt not knowing. He said outright that he isn't the guy in charge of this and will let us know - this is a forum, not a press conference.

[Tomesy]

I believe its time that Sports Interactive and SEGA make an announcement on this topic.

The in game advertising is a mistake, they should acknowledge it as such.

Some of the responses here are frankly abhorent.

"It uses very little bandwith so don't worry about it"

That is shocking, how dare you. It is an invasive use of my PC resources, no matter the amount or scope of the thing.

The use of my private date in any capacity is unacceptable. Simple as, no further comment required.

To date I've had well over a dozen pop-up windows as a result of my stray clicks while managing my team, distracting from the core of the game product I purchased.

To pick up on an excellent point made by a prior poster, I have paid for the game and the licence. I do not expect some badly thought out method to lighten my wallet further. There is no mention of this abhorrent practice in any way on the game packaging. Perhaps this practice is legal, it however most certainly is not moral.

I expect an apology and an explanation from both SI and SEGA. This simply is not good enough.

[GavinZac]

The use of my private date in any capacity is unacceptable. Simple as, no further comment required.

Just to restate, your IP is not private data. If I put an image in this post from my server, I have your IP - but all that tells me is the general region you are at, or rather where you appear to be at. Without this ability, the internet wouldn't actually work.

To date I've had well over a dozen pop-up windows as a result of my stray clicks while managing my team, distracting from the core of the game product I purchased.

That is quite unfortunate, and I agree there shouldn't be popups. But over a dozen? What are you doing, trying to drag players around the 3D match? :confused: I literally haven't clicked them once.

To pick up on an excellent point made by a prior poster, I have paid for the game and the licence.

And it explicitly states that there is in game advertising in the license you agreed to.

I do not expect some badly thought out method to lighten my wallet further.

How exactly does this lighten your wallet further?

[ReallyMadrid]

And it explicitly states that there is in game advertising in the license you agreed to.

Which you find out AFTER having bought the game.

[GavinZac]

Which you find out AFTER having bought the game.

Which is a problem with DVD distribution. What do you want, the EULA on the back of the box? It has been public knowledge that this feature will be in the game since before its release. The EULA is available before purchase via the preferred method of distribution - Steam. Even this thread was started before the game was released.

[ReallyMadrid]

Which is a problem with DVD distribution. What do you want, the EULA on the back of the box? It has been public knowledge that this feature will be in the game since before its release. The EULA is available before purchase via the preferred method of distribution - Steam. Even this thread was started before the game was released.

How has it been public knowledge since before the release? People only found out here on the forum because somebody read the EULA and posted it here and asked what it meant.

I think I've read a couple of times how the opinions on this forum should not be seen as a majority view towards the game as it's only a small part of the total buyers. Also with Steam, I'd like to see how many have bought it via Steam as opposed to boxed.

It's probably not even half (if a quarter of) the user base who have shared in this "public knowledge".

[GillsMan]

How has it been public knowledge since before the release? People only found out here on the forum because somebody read the EULA and posted it here and asked what it meant.

I think I've read a couple of times how the opinions on this forum should not be seen as a majority view towards the game as it's only a small part of the total buyers. Also with Steam, I'd like to see how many have bought it via Steam as opposed to boxed.

It's probably not even half (if a quarter of) the user base who have shared in this "public knowledge".

That's a fair point, but how else do you want the fact FM contains IGA to be communicated to you? Putting it in the EULA seems fair enough to me. Did you want it on the box? While that's relatively sensible, no other game manufacturer puts it their, so why should SI and Sega? They're only following the industry norm - loads of games have IGA, and none of them "advertise" this fact.

[ReallyMadrid]

That's a fair point, but how else do you want the fact FM contains IGA to be communicated to you? Putting it in the EULA seems fair enough to me. Did you want it on the box? While that's relatively sensible, no other game manufacturer puts it their, so why should SI and Sega? They're only following the industry norm - loads of games have IGA, and none of them "advertise" this fact.

Not to say there aren't (I just don't know ) but which pc games have an advertising method that takes information from the user and transmit it by internet to decide which advertising the user gets?

[GillsMan]

Not to say there aren't (I just don't know ) but which pc games have an advertising method that takes information from the user and transmit it by internet to decide which advertising the user gets?

Off the top of my head, Hellgate London is one.

[Matthias1985]

the in game advertising doesn't particularly bother me as long as Sports Interactive put a large amount of the revenue into the next version of the FM series rather than it going into Sega's pockets

[ReallyMadrid]

Off the top of my head, Hellgate London is one.

I guess I know why I don't play other pc games

Does this also make a popup when you click on the ad though?

[GillsMan]

I guess I know why I don't play other pc games

Does this also make a popup when you click on the ad though?

I don't think so, but it does use the IP tracker thingy.

[ReallyMadrid]

I don't think so, but it does use the IP tracker thingy.

I also imagine it won't have it, as being taken out of a shooter because of a pop up can literally kill you.

The IP thing is still annoying, but I'd think only that and no clickable links (or the next very least: when you disable hyperlinks it actually does disable all hyperlinks) would be the lesser of 2 "evils" that more people could live with.

[GillsMan]

I also imagine it won't have it, as being taken out of a shooter because of a pop up can literally kill you.

The IP thing is still annoying, but I'd think only that and no clickable links (or the next very least: when you disable hyperlinks it actually does disable all hyperlinks) would be the lesser of 2 "evils" that more people could live with.

It's hard to disagree with that.

[GavinZac]

The IP thing is still annoying

..... Why ?

[ReallyMadrid]

..... Why ?

Because a company would take information from my computer unasked, use my bandwith to transmit this, and supply me ads in the game, all this while I would have already paid money for said game.

People use programs to remove adware from their computers, not pay money to put adware on them.

[GillsMan]

Because a company would take information from my computer unasked, use my bandwith to transmit this, and supply me ads in the game, all this while I would have already paid money for said game.

People use programs to remove adware from their computers, not pay money to put adware on them.

This is merely my opinion, but I'd take FM's "adware" over the crap that EA games make you install. I can't play FIFA 2009 online without updating to the latest patch, for which I need to install EA Download Manager. And the number of games that install Punkbuster and Gamespy and other crap on my computer which I have to get rid of straight away is irritating. I find that much more irritating than a few localised ads - but that's just my opinion.

[sjm]

The whole "PC piracy" argument is moot though. It would be naive to think that noone would pirate games if they stopped being made for PCs.

I think it much more likely that piracy will simply move platforms. But I don't want to derail this thread.

I do think that ad-based revenue is THE FUTURE though (5-10 years). Just that the cover charge should be zero or negligible in this case - the whole point being to control the source and preventing people from getting the game from elsewhere, which otherwise drives the ad revenue into the pirates' pockets instead, in a superbly self-defeatest move.

I'm still unhappy with the clicky ads though Wrong model, right(ish) idea.

[GillsMan]

The whole "PC piracy" argument is moot though. It would be naive to think that noone would pirate games if they stopped being made for PCs.

I think it much more likely that piracy will simply move platforms. But I don't want to derail this thread.

I disagree, although this is based on my assumption that you need to mod your actual hardware (something like a Wii Key for Wii's and I assume you need to do something similar for 360s and PS3s?). I should imagine people would be more reticent about pirating games if they had to solder bits of kit to their very expensive hardware.

I agree with your other points though.

[sjm]

Yeah you'll need to mod the hardware, but you buy the kit of e-bay or whatever, and if soldering really is required it can't be that difficult to find someone to do it for you for 20 quid. Minor hassle, sure, and explains why piracy is more of a problem in the PC market. But this is probably something a lot more people would do if there was no PC games market. And surely this would only create a thriving market for pre-modded consoles?

Hacked satellite receivers are pretty popular and also require a bit of work, so I don't think it'll put many people off if there isn't an easier alternative (PC).

[GavinZac]

Because a company would take information from my computer unasked, use my bandwith to transmit this, and supply me ads in the game, all this while I would have already paid money for said game.

They don't take information from your computer unasked. For starters, they "ask" in the EULA. Secondly, they use your IP which you broadcast every time you connect to another computer via the internet. They don't take any information, they legally can't even store information.

The next time Google directs you to Google.Co.Uk instead of Google.com, write a nasty letter saying how despicable they're being.

[Hamselv]

I disagree, although this is based on my assumption that you need to mod your actual hardware (something like a Wii Key for Wii's and I assume you need to do something similar for 360s and PS3s?). I should imagine people would be more reticent about pirating games if they had to solder bits of kit to their very expensive hardware.

My knowledge about consoles is rather limited, but I do know that, at least in Denmark, it is completely legal to mod the consoles so they will accept copied CDs/DVDs (and it's also legal to make backup copies of games you buy). Lots of shops here even sell the consoles pre-modded, so I'm not sure it's that much of a hassle. I knew someone who bought a PS2 that way, because he knew that his kids would scratch the discs. To prevent that he then made copies of the games he bought and let them use those instead of the original discs.

By looking at some of the torrent sites, it seems that there are a lot of Wii, and 360 games being released, in most cases it even happens before the PC versions of the same games. So, to me it looks like piracy on consoles is (or is on the way to become) just as much an issue as on PCs. I don't see any games released for PS3 though, so maybe Sony has found some way to prevent it, that other future consoles will adopt as well.

[ReallyMadrid]

They don't take information from your computer unasked. For starters, they "ask" in the EULA. Secondly, they use your IP which you broadcast every time you connect to another computer via the internet. They don't take any information, they legally can't even store information.

The next time Google directs you to Google.Co.Uk instead of Google.com, write a nasty letter saying how despicable they're being.

I'll do just that as soon as you fill your computer up with Adware and Spyware on purpose. They're not getting information a website couldn't get, and you wouldn't even have to pay for them to do so.

Unasked, being I didn't ask for it.

[Kris]

The difference is Adware and Spyware do recursive searching for more than just your IP (which actually, legally, isn't your property).

[ReallyMadrid]

The difference is Adware and Spyware do recursive searching for more than just your IP (which actually, legally, isn't your property).

I seem to remember reading that the program in the game also checks your hardware and reports this back.

[Takamaru]

I've got no problems with IGA, in fact I think it is a great development to creating realistic dynamic digital environments. Maybe not to such a high level in FM than in other free roaming games though, but as a whole I do believe it is a good development that in the future may benefit gamers more than they might think right now. It's a very interesting subject on which I did my thesis.

I do think the clickable hoardings go a bit too far though. Seeing an advertising communication is something else than being willing to visit that brand or products website.

[GavinZac]

I'll do just that as soon as you fill your computer up with Adware and Spyware on purpose. They're not getting information a website couldn't get

Incorrect, why would they bother putting spyware on your pc to get your IP address? They could do that by just taking the ip you've given them (they don't organically grow on your pc) without going to the hassle of sending files or bypassing security.

Besides, adware/spyware usually doesn't work very well on my PC as WINE doesn't support them. Ho-hum.

[Kris]

I seem to remember reading that the program in the game also checks your hardware and reports this back.

No , no it doesnt.

Windows update does however.