Unrealistic Player Problems

[toby14]

Big fan of the addition of 'dynamics' within this years edition. It's a fantastic concept that in theory increases the realism element. 

Unfortunately I have had players come to me with issues that would simply never happen in real life. 

There are many examples of this, most recently as manager of Arsenal,  after Carl Jenkinson returned from his loan at Birmingham, I sold him and Mesut Ozil came to me furious that I  sold him due to him apparently being an influential member of the squad?! This makes zero sense. 

Hopefully in the future players will only come to you with realistic problems and issues and not when a dreadful player who's barely played for the club is sold. 

[kingjericho]

I think that example makes sense. It's common news to have some players worried that a team might sell its star player. It happened when Ronaldo threatened to leave Real, some players came public to say it would be a bad decision to sell him.

In your example, the fact that Jenkinson is a fringe player is not very important, he's just a player who is concerned the team may lose quality by selling Ozil.

[Spurs08]

4 minutes ago, kingjericho said:

I think that example makes sense. It's common news to have some players worried that a team might sell its star player. It happened when Ronaldo threatened to leave Real, some players came public to say it would be a bad decision to sell him.

In your example, the fact that Jenkinson is a fringe player is not very important, he's just a player who is concerned the team may lose quality by selling Ozil.

That's not what happened. Ozil is furious that Jenkinson was sold...

[kingjericho]

2 minutes ago, Spurs08 said:

That's not what happened. Ozil is furious that Jenkinson was sold...

Oops,I read ir wrong  well that makes less sense now.

[Jack Joyce]

Examples like this are best raised in the bugs forum, ideally with a save just before you sold Jenkinson in this case. That way we can look at why this is happening and fix it!

[westy8chimp]

Functionality like dynamics is always going to be restrictive and not based on real life. The dynamics module will look at a players nationality, length of time at club, personality and assign him to a social group based on that ****(see edit)... from there the players in each social group can be termed as 'friends', if one of that group leaves one or more of the group remaining may complain.

You can't expect the dev team to know or spend time going to every club to find out the reality of the social groups etc or what the effect one of them leaving would do to the rest...

Your example does seem slightly odd ... but remember the code used to come up with dynamics is impersonal and has to work for regens... or those users who don't use real players to start with even.

it's why I never really pay attention to those type of new features ... all it is is a pain in the backside to man-manage my squad based on simple calculations ... now instead of me choosing to sell Jenks because he is 5th choice RB and never plays... I have to also consider 'do I want to risk upsetting anyone in his social group'. I get why it's there though... it's part of real life football management. I sell them anyway... when Ozil complains just fob him off with 'he wasn't the only influential member' ... I've never had someone leave the meeting unhappy with my excuse.

 

Edit: ****Opinion not fact... obviously the actual code used is fairly complex... but at high level this summarises the problems of highlighting any particular player interaction issue.

 

[forameuss]

13 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

Functionality like dynamics is always going to be restrictive and not based on real life. The dynamics module will look at a players nationality, length of time at club, personality and assign him to a social group based on that ****(see edit)... from there the players in each social group can be termed as 'friends', if one of that group leaves one or more of the group remaining may complain.

You can't expect the dev team to know or spend time going to every club to find out the reality of the social groups etc or what the effect one of them leaving would do to the rest...

Your example does seem slightly odd ... but remember the code used to come up with dynamics is impersonal and has to work for regens... or those users who don't use real players to start with even.

it's why I never really pay attention to those type of new features ... all it is is a pain in the backside to man-manage my squad based on simple calculations ... now instead of me choosing to sell Jenks because he is 5th choice RB and never plays... I have to also consider 'do I want to risk upsetting anyone in his social group'. I get why it's there though... it's part of real life football management. I sell them anyway... when Ozil complains just fob him off with 'he wasn't the only influential member' ... I've never had someone leave the meeting unhappy with my excuse.

 

Edit: ****Opinion not fact... obviously the actual code used is fairly complex... but at high level this summarises the problems of highlighting any particular player interaction issue.

 

Mostly this, but with a bit of an addition.  It would probably fall upon the researchers, but can you imagine how far they'd get going into the club and asking "so aye, who is pals with who here?".  It's another thing that falls under the massive umbrella of "context", which FM always struggles with.  It's always going to be a bit uncanny valley at the very best. 

Given it's a new feature, any examples reported will hopefully be cases that can be tightened up in future.

[toby14]

While i'm on the subject of unrealistic aspects of being Arsenal manager, this is what i have just added to the Arsenal good player and team guide forum.. 

Totally unrealistic what you can do with Arsenal, but assembling an absolute dream team is a thoroughly enjoyable save nevertheless. 

First season I won the League, FA Cup and Europa League and knocked out early in the Carabao Cup.

I finished the league campaign with 93 points and 118 goals scored.

Not that I think my team would have had any problems regardless, but the Europa League wasn’t the most competitive, no ‘big’ team dropped down from the CL, so I had a smooth run throughout the competition.  

 

In terms of transfers, I have two main tactics. Firstly, for players I’ll have zero intention of selling, I’ll always include the 50% of next sale clause which dramatically reduces prices. The same clause in the players contract significantly reduces their wage demands and signing on fee’s.  Secondly, I pay most of the transfer sum in installments resulting in very little actually being taken from that budget.

 

First season summer transfers:

In:

Alderweireld - £25m (release clause)

De Gea - £70m

Kanté - £60m

Hazard - £76m

Pogba - £82m

Justin Kluivert - £9m

De Ligt - £11.5m

Dolberg - £30m

 

Out:

Xhaka - £45m

Ramsey - £41.5m

Monreal - £31m

Elneny - £27.5m

Welbeck - £25.5m

Cech - £8.25

Ospina - £5.75m

 

First season January transfers:

In:

Dybala - £90m

Varane - £80m

 

Out:

Lacazette - £54m

AMN – Loan

 

Season total net spent:

£179m

 

Second season summer transfers:

In:

Alex Sandro - £65m

Leo Messi - £267m (relase clause)

D’Amico - £575k

Neymar - £380m

Marquinhos - £70m

Grimaldo - £35m

Arthur - £28m

 

Out:

Aubameyang - £72m

Mkhitaryan - £70m

Alderweireld - £55m

Mustafi - £55m

Kolasinac - £36m

Koscielny - £30m

Lucas Perez - £28m

Asano - £10m

Chambers - £10m

Holding - £8m

Jenkinson - £5.5m

Jeff R.A - £4m

Martinez - £2.5

Bielik - £3m

Marvropanos £1m

Akpom - £700k

 

Season total net spent:

£455m

 

My tactics (424) adopt an attack being the best form of defence approach. Attacking mentality and a fluid shape in an attempt to play progressive, creative and intense football.  A back 4 made up of 2 ball playing center backs (D) and 2 complete wing backs (A). 2 central midfielders, a deep lying playmaker (S) and ball winning midfielder (D). 2 Inside forwards (A) and 2 strikers, a poacher (A) for the first season with Aubameyang and now Messi as a trequartista (A) and a complete forward (A).

 

Individual edit instructions:

2 centre backs: Dribble less often. Deep lying playmaker: More risky passes. 2 Inside forwards: More risky passes. Poacher: move into channels

 

Team instructions:

Higher tempo, wide shape, higher defensive line, exploit both flanks, play out of defence, pass into space, be more expressive, hit early (low) crosses, run at defence and roam from positions.

 

I have also recruited some of the best staff on the game along with some club legends including; Henry, Bergkamp, Adams and Ljungberg. I also improved the training facilities to 'state of the art' to ensure my players have the best possible chance of reaching their PA.  

 

So my starting 11 going into my second season is, 424: De Gea; Bellerin, Marquinhos, Varane, Sandro; Pogba, Kante; Hazard, Neymar, Dybala, Messi.

 

A tad ridiculous, but I plan to finally go a season unbeaten and score an insane amount of goals. Total football. #TheNewInvincibles 

[Spurs08]

2 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

Functionality like dynamics is always going to be restrictive and not based on real life. The dynamics module will look at a players nationality, length of time at club, personality and assign him to a social group based on that ****(see edit)... from there the players in each social group can be termed as 'friends', if one of that group leaves one or more of the group remaining may complain.

You can't expect the dev team to know or spend time going to every club to find out the reality of the social groups etc or what the effect one of them leaving would do to the rest...

Your example does seem slightly odd ... but remember the code used to come up with dynamics is impersonal and has to work for regens... or those users who don't use real players to start with even.

it's why I never really pay attention to those type of new features ... all it is is a pain in the backside to man-manage my squad based on simple calculations ... now instead of me choosing to sell Jenks because he is 5th choice RB and never plays... I have to also consider 'do I want to risk upsetting anyone in his social group'. I get why it's there though... it's part of real life football management. I sell them anyway... when Ozil complains just fob him off with 'he wasn't the only influential member' ... I've never had someone leave the meeting unhappy with my excuse.

 

Edit: ****Opinion not fact... obviously the actual code used is fairly complex... but at high level this summarises the problems of highlighting any particular player interaction issue.

 

I agree with all that, although at the very top level researchers can pretty easily put real-life friendships into the game as favoured personnel and I think the game should use this more than it does with the social groups stuff - in particular there should be some visual indication on the dynamics screen that two players are friends above and beyond being in the same social group, and they should have a greater likelihood of being upset if the other is sold.

Regardless though, even with generic information the system isn't handling this as well as it should. There's two particular issues here it should be able to deal with and hopefully will in future versions. Firstly, Jenkinson wasn't even with the squad during the previous season, so as long as the squad dynamics were fine without him (e.g. he wasn't team leader before being sent out who was sorely missed in the dressing room) there should be a much-reduced or no reaction to him leaving permanently. Secondly, his CA and reputation are almost certainly far below Arsenal standards, which again should mean little or no reaction - players should recognise that however popular or influential he is he simply isn't close to being a good enough footballer to stay with the squad.

[toby14]

6 minutes ago, Spurs08 said:

Secondly, his CA and reputation are almost certainly far below Arsenal standards, which again should mean little or no reaction - players should recognise that however popular or influential he is he simply isn't close to being a good enough footballer to stay with the squad.  

[Spurs08]

1 hour ago, toby14 said:

snip

Yeah, I've had a very similar experience. I don't manage my real-life team, Spurs, in-game any more because the top-end of the Premier League is way too easy. So many issues that need addressing there - the huge amount you're allowed to spend in transfers with installments, too many players being willing to move (Messi should be laughing at the idea of going to Arsenal for a rookie manager in season two), it's too easy to make a squad of superstars into a cohesive team (which dynamics is trying to solve), the AI not being willing enough to exploit its huge financial power to make marginal improvements to the team/squad like you are and instead settling for "good enough", lower-table teams not being effective at sitting back and hitting you on the counter (especially in home matches for them),  AI clubs not making enough facilities improvements (all of the top 6 have done or are doing so in real life recently), the AI sticking with terrible staff rather than seeking out and competing with you for the best of them. For non-beginners it's an absolute cakewalk. I think these problems have been around a while but have been compounded by the huge wealth of the Premier League which the AI doesn't seem to know how to put to good use at all.

[toby14]

Spurs08, Spot on. It's too easy, the players i am able to attract being the main and obvious flaw. Kante, Pogba, Hazard, Toby in the first summer?! Mad

My holy grail is a season unbeaten, once i have completed that, I will be moving to a more challenging save such a bringing Ajax to the top of European football again. 

[Spurs08]

16 minutes ago, toby14 said:

Spurs08, Spot on. It's too easy, the players i am able to attract being the main and obvious flaw. Kante, Pogba, Hazard, Toby in the first summer?! Mad

My holy grail is a season unbeaten, once i have completed that, I will be moving to a more challenging save such a bringing Ajax to the top of European football again. 

On top of everything else the fees are way too low as well. The Toby one is a data error from the researcher (the clause should only be active in Summer 2019, meaning we'll likely try and sell him for at least twice that much this summer). But the idea that Chelsea and United would happily sell a top 6 rival their star players for under £100m, and I'm willing to bet without even having a replacement lined up, is comical. You should really have been met with rather rude words from all the players and clubs concerned here unless you offered seriously silly money. Not to even mention that when the AI gets this transfer money it seems to like spending it on players they don't need - my favourite being when AI Tottenham decides it really needs Cavani to become their record transfer and best-paid player to replace Llorente as backup to Kane, and proceeds to give him six substitute appearances all season. Really?!

[toby14]

1 minute ago, Spurs08 said:

On top of everything else the fees are way too low as well. The Toby one is a data error from the researcher (the clause should only be active in Summer 2019, meaning we'll likely try and sell him for at least twice that much this summer). But the idea that Chelsea and United would happily sell a top 6 rival their star players for under £100m, and I'm willing to bet without even having a replacement lined up, is comical. You should really have been met with rather rude words from all the players and clubs concerned here unless you offered seriously silly money. Not to even mention that when the AI gets this transfer money it seems to like spending it on players they don't need - my favourite being when AI Tottenham decides it really needs Cavani to become their record transfer and best-paid player to replace Llorente as backup to Kane, and proceeds to give him six substitute appearances all season. Really?!